I'm Starting To Disbeleive In God.

[BillyJo]

You don't have the excuse to say you are imperfect because that's up to you. Everyone can make mistakes we can choose not to do them if we do them knowing there would be punishment we deserve them. Our decisions are made by us not God we are Shi'a Muslims not sunni so we believe in free will so don't tell us what we believe or don't believe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jaNuY6VLiU&feature=plcp&context=C37f93fbUDOEgsToPDskJ4CuH15QDxDk4ucziKTwb2

The answer is God cannot punish us for a sin we never did you have to do the sin to deserve punishment and you have to do good to deserve a reward. But since you made an example using a teacher I will use the same example. If the teacher knows you are the most stupid student in class will she tell you to go home or tell you to do the test? Its not about knowledge since knowledge doesn't affect the result. When I see a blind man walking in a road with a hole, I know he is going to fall my knowledge doesn't affect him falling in the hole or not so I give him advice not to walk on that road its up to him to take the advice or reject it.

Allah said [Yusufali 4:79] Whatever good, (O man!) happens to thee, is from Allah; but whatever evil happens to thee, is from thy (own) soul. and We have sent thee as a messenger to (instruct) mankind. And enough is Allah for a witness.

Allah also said [Yusufali 76:2-3] Verily We created Man from a drop of mingled sperm, in order to try him: So We gave him (the gifts), of Hearing and Sight. We showed him the Way: whether he be grateful or ungrateful (rests on his will).

You offended us by calling our beliefs garbage and taken from children books you should be band

Truth is God is God if you think you can understand every aspect about Him you are retarded. Our knowledge is limited and we don't even know whether there are aliens in this world or whats in this endless galaxy, for God's sake we don't even know whats in the deepness of the ocean and we want to understand the Lord of both the ocean and the galaxy

[Yusufali 40:4] None can dispute about the Signs of Allah but the Unbelievers. Let not, then, their strutting about through the land deceive thee!

[Yusufali 40:10] The Unbelievers will be addressed: "Greater was the aversion of Allah to you than (is) your aversion to yourselves, seeing that ye were called to the Faith and ye used to refuse."

[Yusufali 40:11] They will say: "Our Lord! twice hast Thou made us without life, and twice hast Thou given us Life! Now have we recognised our sins: Is there any way out (of this)?"

[iDevonian]

"You don't have the excuse to say you are imperfect because that's up to you. Everyone can make mistakes we can choose not to do them"

Thats complete garbage. No human is perfect, we all make mistakes, and we do not have a choice in this. We can make decisions that we believe are good and we can try to be good, but mistakes are inevitable. It is not "up to you" to be imperfect. We are imperfect, we all are, and nothing will change that. We cannot "choose" to not make mistakes, it is inevitable.

Your statements are false.

People need to understand, we did not choose to be born fallable. If God exists, he created us this way. And hell awaits those who do not pass the test (even though God already would know who will pass and fail anyway).

"If the teacher knows you are the most stupid student in class will she tell you to go home or tell you to do the test? Its not about knowledge since knowledge doesn't affect the result. When I see a blind man walking in a road with a hole, I know he is going to fall my knowledge doesn't affect him falling in the hole or not so I give him advice not to walk on that road its up to him to take the advice or reject it."

Heres the difference, lets say you are God, and you created that hole in front of the blind man. Now, you also created the blind man, and you created him in a way in which you know that even if you warned him, he wouldnt believe you and he would walk into the hole anyway.

The test is created, the results known, and all of the participants who are partaking, the creator already knows what they will do and how they will do it.

A teacher, will tell the kid to stay and take it because its standard protocol, its part of the teachers job, With God however, there is no standard protocol, God can do anything he wants and he is not bound by school rules or rules of law like we are. Your comparisons and analogies are terrible.

Now back to the blind man. Would you dig a big hole in the ground, and find the most arrogant blind man and have him walk toward it? Ok, now you know that even if you warned him, he would still walk into the hold anyway. Why would you make such a "test"?

Keep in mind, you created all of the parts of the test and all of the participants. Why would you create such a test? To see if the blind man will listen to you and do the right thing? Well you already picked a blind man that wouldnt listen, so why would you test what you already know will fail? You dont have laws like a teacher to follow, you can do anything you want, you can even create a blind man who will listen to your warning.

But instead you design a trap for an arrogant blind man, then you expect him to not fall in? Even though you know he will, and then you are the one saying that he is the bad guy? No no, thats backwards. You are the bad guy for creating the trap and picking a man who wont listen to go into the trap.

Edited February 15, 2012 by iDevonian

[BillyJo]

You are [REMOVED]. Read what I say before you post. We make mistakes that aren't sins like forgetting to say happy valentines to your wife, that's something we are allowed to make mistakes in. As for the mistakes which are sins its simple to avoid them but they are tempting so your animal side shows when you decide to do something wrong like steal or rape. You have the choice not to do those but you do them anyways. Why are you saying we don't have a choice? Say that about yourself I have never killed, stealed, raped etc although I did minor sins but Allah said in the Quran [Yusufali 53:32] Those who avoid great sins and shameful deeds, only (falling into) small faults,- verily thy Lord is ample in forgiveness. He knows you well when He brings you out of the earth, And when ye are hidden in your mothers' wombs. Therefore justify not yourselves: He knows best who it is that guards against evil.

My statements are right and you are wrong. I follow God while you can't decide. I responded to those arguments above and you are speaking as if you know my religion better than me lol

Edited February 15, 2012 by Replicant
Insult

[satyaban]

iDevonian

"So in conclusion, this doesnt make any sense. "Life is a test"...that doesnt make any sense. "we are ungreatful", well that doesnt make any sense either, because God created us as ungreatful beings, and God created a test...a test in which he already knows the scores. Whats the value of a test if you already know the results your students will get?"

I agree with you about this test nonsense, I believe this life is a pass or fail enterprise. I can not understand why or how people can apply human traits, attributes to The Creator, it is very small minded to do so. But that is my belief I understand that people believe differently but they speak as if theirs is are the final word when it is only their belief and opinion.

[BillyJo]

iDevonian

"So in conclusion, this doesnt make any sense. "Life is a test"...that doesnt make any sense. "we are ungreatful", well that doesnt make any sense either, because God created us as ungreatful beings, and God created a test...a test in which he already knows the scores. Whats the value of a test if you already know the results your students will get?"

I agree with you about this test nonsense, I believe this life is a pass or fail enterprise. I can not understand why or how people can apply human traits, attributes to The Creator, it is very small minded to do so. But that is my belief I understand that people believe differently but they speak as if theirs is are the final word when it is only their belief and opinion.

I proved it to you earlier that some traits are similar but with different proportions in the creation and Creator yet you didn't answer to my previous post santa man

[BlackWave]

iDevonian

"So in conclusion, this doesnt make any sense. "Life is a test"...that doesnt make any sense. "we are ungreatful", well that doesnt make any sense either, because God created us as ungreatful beings, and God created a test...a test in which he already knows the scores. Whats the value of a test if you already know the results your students will get?"

I agree with you about this test nonsense, I believe this life is a pass or fail enterprise. I can not understand why or how people can apply human traits, attributes to The Creator, it is very small minded to do so. But that is my belief I understand that people believe differently but they speak as if theirs is are the final word when it is only their belief and opinion.

Just out of curosity, do you believe in the cycle of rebirth and if yes what are we reborn into??

[alirazavi]

A scholar during this recent Muharram told a group of people, in which I was present, that Iman is cyclical. Sometimes your personal Iman is at an all time high, and sometimes it is at an all time low. It is natural. At times when our Iman is at an all-time high we should do our best to keep that part of the cycle as long as it can be, and at times when our Iman is low we should do everything we can do to get back to the high point.

What I took away from this is we are all human beings, and as human beings with free thinking minds, we evolve and progress in our lives, as does our Iman. Part of that progression and evolution may very well be the times when we question our faith, only to come to a greater understanding of it altogether.

My two cents.

[Thaqalayn313]

What you fail to mention here is the fact that we are born into our corrupt world unwillfully, and by nature we are imperfect. Our corrupt decision making abilities are a product of the creator himself. You said humans are ungrateful and have destroyed the earth, but who created ungrateful beings? We were created ungreatful. Or so you believe.

Thankfully there are other options than believing in a contradictory story like yours.

Then you say, life is a test.

Tests are created to determine the ability of those taking the test. The results are provided to the seniors who give them, and the seniors judge them based on test results.

So here is a question for you. If God provides a test as a teacher does, does that mean that God doesnt know what results we will have on the test, just as a teacher doesnt know what results we will have?

God created us, he created the test too, so he should already know how the test will go and he already knows who will pass and who will fail when he creates us.

So in conclusion, this doesnt make any sense. "Life is a test"...that doesnt make any sense. "we are ungreatful", well that doesnt make any sense either, because God created us as ungreatful beings, and God created a test...a test in which he already knows the scores. Whats the value of a test if you already know the results your students will get?

Your beliefs do not make any sense. And dont give me that "we have free will to make good decisions, this is how we were made." garbage, because we can be created with free will, and the knowledge and morality to make purely good decisions...right? Or do you doubt the ability of Gods creative power?

So if we can be created with the abilities to make purely good decisions, then there is no need for a test, and there will be no ungrateful people. That would be the greater creation, not a corrupt one in which hell awaits us all.

Salam,

I thinking your taking the issue from a wrong perspective , i mean no offence in the end these are my beliefs, we are born into an "ungrateful" world "unwillingly" , well to begin with your generalising the world as ungrateful , you through your statement have just said they you dont have the free will to choose whether to be grateful or not , even if a person lives in an ungrateful world , does that mean he should just be ungrateful?

Why blame god for this? Oh we live in an ungrateful , imperfect world , this is gods fault so if i turn out this way its because i was unwillingly thrown into such a corrupt world.

I understand where your coming from , BUT , being in an ungrateful world we learn first hand the difference between right and wrong , we see the ungratefulness and the evil that exists and we strive to fight for whats GOOD , if good is the lack of evil , and evil did not exist how would we recognise the good that we do?

What system of morality would we have if we dont witness the wrong and no its consequences , on a worldwide level?

The fact that we are born into a world were all this wrong exists , we can identify and learn from the wrong,

theres a saying that goes "a wise man learns more from a fool , than a fool learns from a wise man"

To be able to witness firsthand the power of human desire and corruption , we are able to identify whats right and whats wrong.

As for what you said on the "test" , i disagree and ill tell you why.

Does the teacher test the student to know the outcome of his test? does this teacher (god) not know the outcome of this test?

Ofcourse he does , god is all knowing but your missing the point.

A test as you stated is a test of ones ability , the fact that your whole life is a trial based test means that ,

when you make a mistake in this test , its FOR YOU TO LEARN FROM , not god

lets not bring god into this equation as if hes testing us for him to know.

WE learn from out mistakes , life is based on trial and error.

If this test did not exist , then what would you learn from experience?

if doing good is good.

and doing bad is bad.

and we only did good , what would little good be considered?

you say

So if we can be created with the abilities to make purely good decisions, then there is no need for a test, and there will be no ungreatful people. That would be the greater creation, not a corrupt one in which hell awaits us all.

yet again i understand where your coming from , but we ALSO have the ability to do bad which is why the test is required.

if we have no ACCOUNTABILITY for our actions ,

why should we do good?

why SHOULDN'T we do bad?

why?

and with an exam or a test , theres a mark scheme , if you really want to use this example of a "school" or whatever.

this mark scheme outlines the answers that are right and wrong in the "test/exam",

The mark scheme, is there for US to know what we must do to answer correctly or incorrectly.

The mark scheme life wise has been given to us

in this beautiful system that we live in we have full knowledge of whats right and whats wrong, we're not in an ungrateful world,

your just viewing everything from a negative perspective , every trial or experience you go through your taking the bad from.

"ungrateful world" , WE are the ungrateful not the world , its our actions that have caused this , you make it seem that being born in a world where wrong is committed, forces you to commit wrong or causes you to commit wrong? where your free will?

Does that mean a person born in a corrupt world unwillingly loses his freedom of will?

No. Islam was sent down on the most ignorant of nations which were the arabs.

They led ignorant lives , they committed wrong , YET when they recieved the message they committed good.

They changed their lives , the people there were born into a corrupt ignorant world and yet they chose to commit good.

THIS IS FREE WILL.

THIS IS INFINITE MERCY.

Stop putting god under a test , and saying oh how unfair he knows the results why do i have to go through this, and benefit from the life you live , learn from this test.

God is testing you so you can learn , you are tested in school so you can reach university and after university live a prosperous educated life.

not so the teacher can.

So please if you view everything in this world as negative , you become a negative person , a depressed person.

instead of falling down and standing back up your falling down and complaining and blaming the world or god for why you fell down,

when you are the one that tripped and fell.

Start thinking and blaming yourself its your imperfections not the world nor gods , its you who needs to make reforms within yourself.

this is the trial we are under so we can learn , and stand up , and become better people and find better ways.

In the end its your choice , and these are my beliefs.

I wish you all the best.

Wasalam.

[iDevonian]

You are garbage. Read what I say before you post. We make mistakes that aren't sins like forgetting to say happy valentines to your wife, that's something we are allowed to make mistakes in. As for the mistakes which are sins its simple to avoid them but they are tempting so your animal side shows when you decide to do something wrong like steal or rape. You have the choice not to do those but you do them anyways. Why are you saying we don't have a choice? Say that about yourself I have never killed, stealed, raped etc although I did minor sins but Allah said in the Quran [Yusufali 53:32] Those who avoid great sins and shameful deeds, only (falling into) small faults,- verily thy Lord is ample in forgiveness. He knows you well when He brings you out of the earth, And when ye are hidden in your mothers' wombs. Therefore justify not yourselves: He knows best who it is that guards against evil.

My statements are right and you are wrong. I follow God while you can't decide. I responded to those arguments above and you are speaking as if you know my religion better than me lol

ok fine, small mistakes are allowed, ok sure. now there is the rest of my post you can respond to.

[BillyJo]

ok fine, small mistakes are allowed, ok sure. now there is the rest of my post you can respond to.

I didn't even say small mistakes are allowed I said they are forgiven. What rest of it

[satyaban]

Just out of curosity, do you believe in the cycle of rebirth and if yes what are we reborn into??

Yes, it is part of the foundation of my belief.

We are getting off topic but there are many determinants concerning the situation and circumstance of rebirth to include what the soul needs to learn, karma and many others.

Salaams to the OP,

Why did God create heaven and hell, good and evil etc? How would we truly know the good without seeing its opposite?

As others here have said: What God knows about the future, your particular future, is irrelevant as far as you're concerned because you make your own moral choices. You are not the Lord's string-puppet.

Many believers go through a "dark night of the soul" like the one you are experiencing. Even though it doesn't seem like it now, the end result will be, insha'Allah, profound spiritual joy and a strengthening of ties with your Creator.

Just to repeat once more: to know a thing is to know its opposite.

Fi Amanillah.

Does God Ever Punish Wrongdoers?

God is perfect goodness, love and truth. He is not wrathful or vengeful. He does not condemn or punish wrongdoers. Jealousy, vengefulness and vanity are qualities of man's instinctive nature, not of God. Aum Namah Sivaya.

Bhashya

There is no reason to ever fear God, whose right-hand gesture, abhaya mudra, indicates "fear not," and whose left hand invites approach. God is with us always, even when we are unaware of that holy presence. He is His creation. It is an extension of Himself; and God is never apart from it nor limited by it. When we act wrongly, we create negative karma for ourselves and must then live through experiences of suffering to fulfill the law of karma. Such karmas may be painful, but they were generated from our own thoughts and deeds. God never punishes us, even if we do not believe in Him. It is by means of worship of and meditation on God that our self-created sufferings are softened and assuaged. God is the God of all--of the believers within all religions, and of the nonbelievers, too. God does not destroy the wicked and redeem the righteous; but grants the precious gift of liberation to all souls. The Agamas state, "When the soul gradually reduces and then stops altogether its participation in darkness and inauspicious powers, the Friend of the World, God, reveals to the soul the limitless character of its knowledge and activity." Aum Namah Sivaya.

Edited February 15, 2012 by satyaban

[Guest Jebreil]

(bismillah)

(salam)

1.

"Life is a test" is a proper proposition. That is, one could say, we are here to do good and not to cause misery, to pursue truth and not fabricate facts or indulge in falsehoods, to create a happy and harmonious environment and not an ugly or chaotic one. However, we have a choice, and we must make the right choice.

However, this "test" makes sense for us who are unaware of the future and free to act in various ways.

2.

It is correct for us to say, "Life is a test. We must live it with the hope of dying without regrets. Only then we deserve to enjoy the goodness of paradise."

3.

It shouldn't matter to us whether God knows we will fail or not fail - what is important to us is whether we will or we will not - and we must try not to - it's a test and we must succeed.

4.

Life can be seen as a test. Even if the results of the test are already well known by an omniscent teacher, it is still, for our purposes who are seated at the desks, a test.

5.

In a test, we may or may not fail and we have the power to both fail and not fail. The bets are placed, the stakes are high, the cards are dealt, the game is on - someone will win, the rest will lose - God knows who - my job is to be the one God has known to win.

(wasalam)

[satyaban]

For argument's sake, lets agree that there is something such as the Law of Karma and Bad actions = negative karma = sufferings. If God is the Creator he has created the law of karma as well. So, the purpose of the law of karma is to bless those who live righteous and punish those who dont. Thus at the end of the day, isnt God punishing the evil doers?

There is no good or bad karma. You don't understand karma which is understandable, karma is most simply put cause and effect and must be kept in balance which is part of personal and universal dharma. You have to move out of a philosophy of duality to better understand it.

[wundermonk]

Blackwave posted:

For argument's sake, lets agree that there is something such as the Law of Karma and Bad actions = negative karma = sufferings. If God is the Creator he has created the law of karma as well. So, the purpose of the law of karma is to bless those who live righteous and punish those who dont. Thus at the end of the day, isnt God punishing the evil doers?

I couldnt find Blackwave's original post, so am requoting from satyaban's post.

Actually, a distinction needs to be made. When Hindus say God is a creator, they do not imply that he created ex-nihilo. The Hindu conception of God is that he is a manifestor. He helps manifest what was pre-existing and unmanifest. God is like a light/lamp that helps reveal what already was dispelling darkness.

Law of Karma has been operating since eternity. So, God isnt the "creator" of the Law of Karma in that there was a point in time when absolutely nothing was and then there was a subsequent point in time when everything [including the Law of Karma] suddenly was.

BTW, allow me to point out few things.

(1)Law of Karma is not unique to eastern faiths. Even Abrahamic faiths have their own version of it. Do Good, believe in prophethood/godhood of Jesus/Mohammed and THEN you will enjoy heaven. Do not do so and then you will suffer eternally in hell. This is nothing but Karma.

(2)Abrahamic faiths believe in a special case of reincarnation. All of us will be resurrected on the Day of Judgement. Thus, Abrahamic faiths believe we will be "born" twice - once in our current physical realm and twice on the Day of Judgement. Hinduism finds no reason to restrict this to an arbitrary figure of twice. Why twice? Why not more? Why not infinite?

[BlackWave]

Blackwave posted:

I couldnt find Blackwave's original post, so am requoting from satyaban's post.

Actually, a distinction needs to be made. When Hindus say God is a creator, they do not imply that he created ex-nihilo. The Hindu conception of God is that he is a manifestor. He helps manifest what was pre-existing and unmanifest. God is like a light/lamp that helps reveal what already was dispelling darkness.

Law of Karma has been operating since eternity. So, God isnt the "creator" of the Law of Karma in that there was a point in time when absolutely nothing was and then there was a subsequent point in time when everything [including the Law of Karma] suddenly was.

BTW, allow me to point out few things.

(1)Law of Karma is not unique to eastern faiths. Even Abrahamic faiths have their own version of it. Do Good, believe in prophethood/godhood of Jesus/Mohammed and THEN you will enjoy heaven. Do not do so and then you will suffer eternally in hell. This is nothing but Karma.

(2)Abrahamic faiths believe in a special case of reincarnation. All of us will be resurrected on the Day of Judgement. Thus, Abrahamic faiths believe we will be "born" twice - once in our current physical realm and twice on the Day of Judgement. Hinduism finds no reason to restrict this to an arbitrary figure of twice. Why twice? Why not more? Why not infinite?

OKay then:-

1- Karma is cause and effect. Good action leads to a good result and bad action leads to a bad result.

2- And we will be born numerous times in the world

If once there was nothing and then at a subsequent time, there was everything and assuming that the souls are eternal. From this we can infer, the number of souls should remain the same and be existing inside a living body. Then, how come the human population has increased from 1 billion in 1825 to 7billion in 2011. The population of insects and animals has not decreased according to any scientific study, so it would not be rational to say that the souls that were in animals are now in humans. Thus if we observe the world around us, reincarnation in this world a bzillion times of the same souls does not hold true.

Infact, I have heard Hindus believe, that few people are able to reach a stage when they are not reborn into this world again. If that was true, the population of humans should infact have decreased and not increased.

In Islam we believe, that before we were created our souls are kept in Aalam-e-Dhar. However, the idea of the universe and your version of cause and effect does not seem to allow an idea of souls without a body when the world suddenly came into existence automatically

Edited February 16, 2012 by BlackWave

[satyaban]

BlackWave

"1- Karma is cause and effect. Good action leads to a good result and bad action leads to a bad result.

2- And we will be born numerous times in the world

If once there was nothing and then at a subsequent time, there was everything. I assume that the souls are eternal. From this we can infer, the number of souls should remain the same. Then, how come the human population has increased from 1 billion in 1825 to 7billion in 2011"

As I mentioned earlier you need to get your head out of "duality" and grasp "non-duality". Forget good actions = good results and bad actions =bad results.

Secondly it is a waste of time to try and keep track of the number of souls. I'll through this in to gum up your works, souls are not reborn immediately. Furthermore why should all souls live on this planet?

If you want to know about soul creation and related issues I suggest you do your own research but I think your only intent is to discredit a phil that has existed for 8,000 yrs.

[BlackWave]

BlackWave

"1- Karma is cause and effect. Good action leads to a good result and bad action leads to a bad result.

2- And we will be born numerous times in the world

If once there was nothing and then at a subsequent time, there was everything. I assume that the souls are eternal. From this we can infer, the number of souls should remain the same. Then, how come the human population has increased from 1 billion in 1825 to 7billion in 2011"

As I mentioned earlier you need to get your head out of "duality" and grasp "non-duality". Forget good actions = good results and bad actions =bad results.

Secondly it is a waste of time to try and keep track of the number of souls. I'll through this in to gum up your works, souls are not reborn immediately. Furthermore why should all souls live on this planet?

If you want to know about soul creation and related issues I suggest you do your own research but I think your only intent is to discredit a phil that has existed for 8,000 yrs.

Okay, sorry about that...........I will read more about indian religions and do my research myself independently without discussing hinduism on shiachat.

Edited February 16, 2012 by BlackWave

[BillyJo]

Okay, sorry about that...........I will read more about indian religions and do my research myself independently without discussing hinduism on shiachat.

Don't waste your time researching a religion which you don't need to know about if it was an important religion we would've heard of it

[iDevonian]

I didn't even say small mistakes are allowed I said they are forgiven. What rest of it

People need to understand, we did not choose to be born fallable. If God exists, he created us this way. And hell awaits those who do not pass the test (even though God already would know who will pass and fail anyway).

"If the teacher knows you are the most stupid student in class will she tell you to go home or tell you to do the test? Its not about knowledge since knowledge doesn't affect the result. When I see a blind man walking in a road with a hole, I know he is going to fall my knowledge doesn't affect him falling in the hole or not so I give him advice not to walk on that road its up to him to take the advice or reject it."

Heres the difference, lets say you are God, and you created that hole in front of the blind man. Now, you also created the blind man, and you created him in a way in which you know that even if you warned him, he wouldnt believe you and he would walk into the hole anyway.

The test is created, the results known, and all of the participants who are partaking, the creator already knows what they will do and how they will do it.

A teacher, will tell the kid to stay and take it because its standard protocol, its part of the teachers job, With God however, there is no standard protocol, God can do anything he wants and he is not bound by school rules or rules of law like we are. Your comparisons and analogies are terrible.

Now back to the blind man. Would you dig a big hole in the ground, and find the most arrogant blind man and have him walk toward it? Ok, now you know that even if you warned him, he would still walk into the hold anyway. Why would you make such a "test"?

Keep in mind, you created all of the parts of the test and all of the participants. Why would you create such a test? To see if the blind man will listen to you and do the right thing? Well you already picked a blind man that wouldnt listen, so why would you test what you already know will fail? You dont have laws like a teacher to follow, you can do anything you want, you can even create a blind man who will listen to your warning.

But instead you design a trap for an arrogant blind man, then you expect him to not fall in? Even though you know he will, and then you are the one saying that he is the bad guy? No no, thats backwards. You are the bad guy for creating the trap and picking a man who wont listen to go into the trap.

And did i miss a response of yours?

Okay, sorry about that...........I will read more about indian religions and do my research myself independently without discussing hinduism on shiachat.

Hinduism is an impressive religion, even as a non hindu, i enjoyed reading the bhagavad gita, its one of my favorite books, and just learning of the material...i think it is a decent religion.

[Lanatin]

People need to understand, we did not choose to be born fallable. If God exists, he created us this way. And hell awaits those who do not pass the test (even though God already would know who will pass and fail anyway).

"If the teacher knows you are the most stupid student in class will she tell you to go home or tell you to do the test? Its not about knowledge since knowledge doesn't affect the result. When I see a blind man walking in a road with a hole, I know he is going to fall my knowledge doesn't affect him falling in the hole or not so I give him advice not to walk on that road its up to him to take the advice or reject it."

Heres the difference, lets say you are God, and you created that hole in front of the blind man. Now, you also created the blind man, and you created him in a way in which you know that even if you warned him, he wouldnt believe you and he would walk into the hole anyway.

The test is created, the results known, and all of the participants who are partaking, the creator already knows what they will do and how they will do it.

A teacher, will tell the kid to stay and take it because its standard protocol, its part of the teachers job, With God however, there is no standard protocol, God can do anything he wants and he is not bound by school rules or rules of law like we are. Your comparisons and analogies are terrible.

Now back to the blind man. Would you dig a big hole in the ground, and find the most arrogant blind man and have him walk toward it? Ok, now you know that even if you warned him, he would still walk into the hold anyway. Why would you make such a "test"?

Keep in mind, you created all of the parts of the test and all of the participants. Why would you create such a test? To see if the blind man will listen to you and do the right thing? Well you already picked a blind man that wouldnt listen, so why would you test what you already know will fail? You dont have laws like a teacher to follow, you can do anything you want, you can even create a blind man who will listen to your warning.

But instead you design a trap for an arrogant blind man, then you expect him to not fall in? Even though you know he will, and then you are the one saying that he is the bad guy? No no, thats backwards. You are the bad guy for creating the trap and picking a man who wont listen to go into the trap.

And did i miss a response of yours?

What a terrible analogy; no one is directing the deeds of this potentially blind man, he brought himself to this position out of his own free will. This isn't rocket science.

[BillyJo]

People need to understand, we did not choose to be born fallable. If God exists, he created us this way. And hell awaits those who do not pass the test (even though God already would know who will pass and fail anyway).

"If the teacher knows you are the most stupid student in class will she tell you to go home or tell you to do the test? Its not about knowledge since knowledge doesn't affect the result. When I see a blind man walking in a road with a hole, I know he is going to fall my knowledge doesn't affect him falling in the hole or not so I give him advice not to walk on that road its up to him to take the advice or reject it."

Heres the difference, lets say you are God, and you created that hole in front of the blind man. Now, you also created the blind man, and you created him in a way in which you know that even if you warned him, he wouldnt believe you and he would walk into the hole anyway.

The test is created, the results known, and all of the participants who are partaking, the creator already knows what they will do and how they will do it.

A teacher, will tell the kid to stay and take it because its standard protocol, its part of the teachers job, With God however, there is no standard protocol, God can do anything he wants and he is not bound by school rules or rules of law like we are. Your comparisons and analogies are terrible.

Now back to the blind man. Would you dig a big hole in the ground, and find the most arrogant blind man and have him walk toward it? Ok, now you know that even if you warned him, he would still walk into the hold anyway. Why would you make such a "test"?

Keep in mind, you created all of the parts of the test and all of the participants. Why would you create such a test? To see if the blind man will listen to you and do the right thing? Well you already picked a blind man that wouldnt listen, so why would you test what you already know will fail? You dont have laws like a teacher to follow, you can do anything you want, you can even create a blind man who will listen to your warning.

But instead you design a trap for an arrogant blind man, then you expect him to not fall in? Even though you know he will, and then you are the one saying that he is the bad guy? No no, thats backwards. You are the bad guy for creating the trap and picking a man who wont listen to go into the trap.

And did i miss a response of yours?

Hinduism is an impressive religion, even as a non hindu, i enjoyed reading the bhagavad gita, its one of my favorite books, and just learning of the material...i think it is a decent religion.

Too much to read for a simple reply

[satyaban]

Okay, sorry about that...........I will read more about indian religions and do my research myself independently without discussing hinduism on shiachat.

We can discuss it no problem but I am not a pandit or a sage. Also "Hinduism" is really a misnomer, there are many different schools and differences within and I can only speak of what I have learned. The reality is that there are man commonalities in what you and I believe, Worship God and do no harm is all we really need to know.

[wundermonk]

If once there was nothing and then at a subsequent time, there was everything and assuming that the souls are eternal.

At no point in time was there "nothing" as per Hindu philosophy.

From this we can infer, the number of souls should remain the same and be existing inside a living body.

No, the soteriology of Hinduism is not based on being embodied. For instance, the Nyaya Darshana believes that in "moksha" a soul is not embodied. The Nyaya believes that "salvation" implies cessation of pain. Pain/Desire/Pleasure, etc. are experienced by a soul only when it is embodied. There are other Darshanas that believe in "moksha" as a positive experience of bliss, but all of these are spiritual rather than based of an embodiment.

Then, how come the human population has increased from 1 billion in 1825 to 7billion in 2011. The population of insects and animals has not decreased according to any scientific study, so it would not be rational to say that the souls that were in animals are now in humans. Thus if we observe the world around us, reincarnation in this world a bzillion times of the same souls does not hold true.

I fail to see how you conclude what you conclude based on sentences that preceded the conclusion.

Firstly, there are levels of soteriology. A final "moksha"/release occurs when all residual traces of Karma are wiped out. Once this happens, then yes, the "number" of souls WILL decrease. But then, we are dealing with infinite numbers. You will never run out of numbers. For instance, consider the number of fractions between 0 and 1. How many are there? Infinite. Remove 50% of these fractions. How many are there? Infinite. Infinite simply means that there is no finite upper bound on the number of souls. So, we can really not talk about "ALL" souls because that implies a boundary. The capability of Brahman is infinite and unlimited. The souls being attributes of this divine essence are likewise unlimited in number.

Infact, I have heard Hindus believe, that few people are able to reach a stage when they are not reborn into this world again. If that was true, the population of humans should infact have decreased and not increased.

As to the number of humans on earth increasing, there again are different theories in this. Why is our planet the only planet that can sustain intelligent life where moral actions can be accomplished? Why is our universe the only universe Brahman would manifest?

In Islam we believe, that before we were created our souls are kept in Aalam-e-Dhar. However, the idea of the universe and your version of cause and effect does not seem to allow an idea of souls without a body when the world suddenly came into existence automatically

I fail to see the connection here because in Hinduism, the souls, universe and God were always present as dependent - independent entities. God is independent. He is the ontological support of the souls and the universe. Chronologically all three entities are coeval.

[iDevonian]

What a terrible analogy; no one is directing the deeds of this potentially blind man, he brought himself to this position out of his own free will. This isn't rocket science.

He was created with the thoughts to make bad decisions. He may be making the decisions, but he has been created in a way in which he would make those bad decisions. Thats why it is significant.

[Guest Jebreil]

(bismillah)

To iDevonian

he has been created in a way in which he would make those bad decisions.

Forget about thinking this through from the perspective of meta-creation.

Observe your own present time now. Imagining that you are angry, frustrated and could swear at the first colleague you meet, but knowing that it's not very nice - suppose I came and said, "whatever you do, God has created you that way. If you make a good decision, it's because God made you think that way, and if you make a bad decision, it's because God made you think that way. Ultimately, He is responsible, not you."

Would that change anything? Would it resolve your tension between releasing your frustration on your innocent colleague and putting effort into restraining and calming yourself in front of others? Does it make you any less free or any less responsible?

It doesn't. You act as a person who is responsible for his actions. You take responsibility for it. Regardless of whether God created you this way or not, you know that you have a choice between doing the right thing and the easy thing.

This is how God has made the majority of human beings: conscientious and free. That is why we talk of ethics, decision-making, logic, law, culture, etc.

It's not about a blind man and a hole. It's about a man who sees the risk of a casanova lifestyle but still does it because he's tempted. There's no way of simplifying it into a determinist analogy, because it's not an accurate depiction of the real world.

[iDevonian]

(bismillah)

To iDevonian

Forget about thinking this through from the perspective of meta-creation.

Observe your own present time now. Imagining that you are angry, frustrated and could swear at the first colleague you meet, but knowing that it's not very nice - suppose I came and said, "whatever you do, God has created you that way. If you make a good decision, it's because God made you think that way, and if you make a bad decision, it's because God made you think that way. Ultimately, He is responsible, not you."

Would that change anything? Would it resolve your tension between releasing your frustration on your innocent colleague and putting effort into restraining and calming yourself in front of others? Does it make you any less free or any less responsible?

It doesn't. You act as a person who is responsible for his actions. You take responsibility for it. Regardless of whether God created you this way or not, you know that you have a choice between doing the right thing and the easy thing.

This is how God has made the majority of human beings: conscientious and free. That is why we talk of ethics, decision-making, logic, law, culture, etc.

It's not about a blind man and a hole. It's about a man who sees the risk of a casanova lifestyle but still does it because he's tempted. There's no way of simplifying it into a determinist analogy, because it's not an accurate depiction of the real world.

Knowing that God is responsible for the good and the bad may not change how we choose to act, but it still remains Gods responsibility. The temptations that manipulate us, our personalities that can be manipulated, and everything in between, all responsibilities of God, assuming God is behind it all. The blind man is not truly at fault for making bad decisions nor is he at fault for the hole he will walk into.

[Guest Jebreil]

Knowing that God is responsible for the good and the bad may not change how we choose to act, but it still remains Gods responsibility. The temptations that manipulate us, our personalities that can be manipulated, and everything in between, all responsibilities of God, assuming God is behind it all. The blind man is not truly at fault for making bad decisions nor is he at fault for the hole he will walk into.

(bismillah)

Are you really blind when you can see two ways and choose one?

Which blind person has a dilemma to walk in a hole or not? Which blind person chooses to go into a hole even though they feel they shouldn't?

This is not accurate to the human condition. The analogy doesn't ring true to how we act.

[satyaban]

iDevorian

"Knowing that God is responsible for the good and the bad may not change how we choose to act, but it still remains Gods responsibility. The temptations that manipulate us, our personalities that can be manipulated, and everything in between, all responsibilities of God, assuming God is behind it all. The blind man is not truly at fault for making bad decisions nor is he at fault for the hole he will walk into."

It is my belief that there is no good or bad in reference to God, Why a person is blind is much too complicated for us to ponder or with any other malady. Whatever we we perceive as "bad" there is an opposite result of "good" somewhere. I will give you to simple examplles and the first is true and the second happens everyday to someone.

First: My appartment building burned down on the 30th of Dec 2011 and all I owned but some clothes were lost. This was not a terrible tragedy but was a opportunity for spiritual growth. I am greatful in a number of ways for the spiritual growth, a big step in balancing my karma and teh destruction made way for improvements in my living situation.

Second: A man dies in a tragic car crash, leaving his wife a widow who will remarry a few years later, and a job vacancy. Another man, married with his marriage in jeopardy because he is jobless and the strain is near unbearable,who has been looking for a job fo over a year has the skill set to fill the vacancy and gets the job.

The man is dead and was going to die sometime anyway and the second man benefitted from the death without knowing of it.

Where is the "good" and the "bad"?

Are Souls and World Essentially Good?

The intrinsic and real nature of all beings is their soul, which is goodness. The world, too, is God's flawless creation. All is in perfect balance. There are changes, and they may appear evil, but there is no intrinsic evil. Aum.

Bhashya

The soul radiates love, is a child of God going through its evolutionary process of growing up into the image and likeness of the Lord. Goodness and mercy, compassion and caring are the intrinsic, inherent or indwelling nature of the soul. Wisdom and pure knowledge, happiness and joy are the intrinsic nature of the soul. Can we believe the soul is anything but goodness itself, purity and all the refined qualities found within superconsciousness? When God is everywhere, how can there be a place for evil? The soul is constantly one with God in its ever-present Satchidananda state at every point in its evolution. How, then, arises the concept of evil and suffering? Anava, karma and maya, the play toys of the soul, are the source of this seeming suffering. Like a child, we play with the toys of anava in the playground of maya, fall and are bruised by karma, then run to our loving Lord for solace and release into spiritual maturity. The Vedas pointedly state, "As the sun, the eye of the whole world, is not sullied by the external faults of the eyes, so the one inner soul of all things is not sullied by the sorrow in the world, being external to it." Aum Namah Sivaya.

Edited February 16, 2012 by satyaban

[iDevonian]

(bismillah)

Are you really blind when you can see two ways and choose one?

Which blind person has a dilemma to walk in a hole or not? Which blind person chooses to go into a hole even though they feel they shouldn't?

This is not accurate to the human condition. The analogy doesn't ring true to how we act.

I dont know what you mean. The blind man can choose what he does, but his options are limited by what has been created for him to choose, and his opinion manipulated by what has been created to affect how he chooses. Regardless of how you look at it, God, if he had created all, created the dilemma, created the being in the dilemma, created the environment that would manipulate the being within the dilemma, and knows how the being will react in the dillema prior to putting them in it.

The person may have choice, but the responsibility of all that exists, rests in the hands of the creator, not the person.

And for satyaba, yes that sounds fine, i dont believe in "good" and "bad" in reference to God either.

Edited February 16, 2012 by iDevonian

[Guest Jebreil]

(bismillah)

To iDevonian

1.

A blind person does not choose to go into a hole, and should he fall into it, does not blame himself.

We, on the other hand, choose to do many things which we have a vague or strong feeling to be wrong and later blame ourselves for choosing to do so. The analogy just does not apply.

2.

Our situation in a moral dilemma is not like a blind person and a hole. God did not make us blind and put a hole in front of us. He gave us a dilemma and gave us choice and, more importantly, he has given us second, third and multiple chances to learn from our past mistakes. It is nothing like a blind person. We see our mistakes, either prior to making them or after making them, and we have the capability of reform.

3.

A fraudster isn't like a blind man. He knows he is depriving someone of his property by committing fraud. He wouldn't want to be cheated in such a dishonest way, and perhaps feels unsure whether he can do this to others (moral dilemma) but in the end, he succumbs to the temptation.

One may ask, "was he forced to commit fraud? Or did he do it because he wanted to?"

And people would respond: "He did it because he wanted to. He was not forced."

Isn't he responsible for what he wanted, despite feeling the moral dilemma that it's morally wrong?

4.

You are imagining a metaphysics in which God determines our perspective, puts us into a dangerous situation, and lets us suffer for it. This is false, just by looking at the world in which we live - our perspectives are not determined (people change, people see things in new ways, people learn from mistakes, people ponder over dilemmas, etc) and our situation is never so dangerous (we often foresee where we might go wrong. For example, we foresee the damage anger may inflict, etc) and we are never blameworthy for things we had no choice in (we are not blamed for accidents we couldn't avoid but we are blamed for accidents we could avoid but decided not to, deliberate negligence, etc)

5. Am I responsible for being rude to you now? I have a choice. I could be rude to you, in order to make an ad hominem attack, or I could be polite, and let the ideas speak. I have a motivation for both, and I have the capability of both. I know that being rude is not nice, it can hurt, it's irrelevant to an argument, and it undermines my integrity. I also know that being polite does the exact opposite. Morally, my conscience favours the latter. But, there is a tension. I'm really frustrated with you. I wouldn't mind scoring a low point off you, just to express my contempt. You're a non-Muslim as well, so I'm not even sinning. Probably, I'm doing a great service to my faith, playing hardline.

Say I swore at you, insulted you. Would you say, given my moral dilemma and moral deliberations above, I was to blame or not. We are talking realistically (God created a real and realistic world) - how would you treat me?

Edited February 16, 2012 by Jebreil

[Thaqalayn313]

(bismillah)

Salam,

I would just like to understand this blind man falling into a hole statement better,

just out of curiosity, you make it seem like its an everyday situation that a hole MAY be present for a blind man.

Questions:

1: What blind man walks down a street with holes? you can google it if you want for fun lol

2. Is there no one present to warn him , a person who is blind has a greater sense of hearing.

3. Does he not have a guide , a walking stick, a dog or anything?

4. Would there just be a hole in the ground with no signs around it or barriers blocking even a REGULAR person from falling into it.

5. Even if the blind man decides to walk in an area with such potential danger is it not HIS decision that caused his falling into a hole?

6.The situation seems like an unlikely one , and im not making assumptions all i'm saying is why put so much effort into making such an unlikely situation to prove whether its gods "responsibility" or "fault" , why make such an unlikely situation an example? i don't get it. Are we keen on making it seem what we want it to seem?

7.The issue of this innocent blind man into walking into this hole , is HIS fault yes it is , its an unlikely situation and even if it did happen , what blind man would not check or ask or find out about the places he walks around.

So basically for the blind man to walk into the hole it requires either:

A: No people around to witness , warn or tell him.

B: No barriers/signs around this mysteriously , and i'm assuming deep hole? , if it wasn't deep it wouldn't cause him much harm.

C: No guide , walking stick or dog with this blind man.

A situation with none of the above cannot be possible rationally , and if it can, say it was a crater or something we have to assume this man just happened to be on some mountain or whatever it may be, this BLIND man decided for some reason hes going to venture into this area.

AND EVEN IF IT WAS POSSIBLE ,the mere fact that he would have made that decisions means the consequence is the result of his decisions and has nothing to do with god, but rather himself.

I think we tend to try to test with these situations , i think rather we should take in the likeliness of the situation and the reality of your theory, because if the practical application wouldn't work.

Then you need to go back to the drawing board.

Wasalam.

[MysticKnight]

The blind man analogy was terrible.

[ThE-Samz]

(bismillah)

To iDevonian

1.

A blind person does not choose to go into a hole, and should he fall into it, does not blame himself.

We, on the other hand, choose to do many things which we have a vague or strong feeling to be wrong and later blame ourselves for choosing to do so. The analogy just does not apply.

2.

Our situation in a moral dilemma is not like a blind person and a hole. God did not make us blind and put a hole in front of us. He gave us a dilemma and gave us choice and, more importantly, he has given us second, third and multiple chances to learn from our past mistakes. It is nothing like a blind person. We see our mistakes, either prior to making them or after making them, and we have the capability of reform.

3.

A fraudster isn't like a blind man. He knows he is depriving someone of his property by committing fraud. He wouldn't want to be cheated in such a dishonest way, and perhaps feels unsure whether he can do this to others (moral dilemma) but in the end, he succumbs to the temptation.

One may ask, "was he forced to commit fraud? Or did he do it because he wanted to?"

And people would respond: "He did it because he wanted to. He was not forced."

Isn't he responsible for what he wanted, despite feeling the moral dilemma that it's morally wrong?

4.

You are imagining a metaphysics in which God determines our perspective, puts us into a dangerous situation, and lets us suffer for it. This is false, just by looking at the world in which we live - our perspectives are not determined (people change, people see things in new ways, people learn from mistakes, people ponder over dilemmas, etc) and our situation is never so dangerous (we often foresee where we might go wrong. For example, we foresee the damage anger may inflict, etc) and we are never blameworthy for things we had no choice in (we are not blamed for accidents we couldn't avoid but we are blamed for accidents we could avoid but decided not to, deliberate negligence, etc)

5. Am I responsible for being rude to you now? I have a choice. I could be rude to you, in order to make an ad hominem attack, or I could be polite, and let the ideas speak. I have a motivation for both, and I have the capability of both. I know that being rude is not nice, it can hurt, it's irrelevant to an argument, and it undermines my integrity. I also know that being polite does the exact opposite. Morally, my conscience favours the latter. But, there is a tension. I'm really frustrated with you. I wouldn't mind scoring a low point off you, just to express my contempt. You're a non-Muslim as well, so I'm not even sinning. Probably, I'm doing a great service to my faith, playing hardline.

Say I swore at you, insulted you. Would you say, given my moral dilemma and moral deliberations above, I was to blame or not. We are talking realistically (God created a real and realistic world) - how would you treat me?

OOF, smacked it bro. Good use of the english language too. we need more shias like you to convert people.

[iDevonian]

(bismillah)

To iDevonian

1.

A blind person does not choose to go into a hole, and should he fall into it, does not blame himself.

We, on the other hand, choose to do many things which we have a vague or strong feeling to be wrong and later blame ourselves for choosing to do so. The analogy just does not apply.

If you would like to make a new analogy, go right ahead.

2.

Our situation in a moral dilemma is not like a blind person and a hole. God did not make us blind and put a hole in front of us. He gave us a dilemma and gave us choice and, more importantly, he has given us second, third and multiple chances to learn from our past mistakes. It is nothing like a blind person. We see our mistakes, either prior to making them or after making them, and we have the capability of reform.

I dont know about that one. Sure we have choices, but our choices are limitted, and in many cases we have reasons for doing what we do, good or bad. A soldier may drop a bomb on a village full of innocent people, but hes doing so because hes signed his life away to his countries military. Should we all be out picking daisys? No...so, we have choices, but unless youre a peace loving monk, youre going to live as humans live, which is to say you will likely live a life that involves indirectly doing bad things.

3.

A fraudster isn't like a blind man. He knows he is depriving someone of his property by committing fraud. He wouldn't want to be cheated in such a dishonest way, and perhaps feels unsure whether he can do this to others (moral dilemma) but in the end, he succumbs to the temptation.

One may ask, "was he forced to commit fraud? Or did he do it because he wanted to?"

And people would respond: "He did it because he wanted to. He was not forced."

Isn't he responsible for what he wanted, despite feeling the moral dilemma that it's morally wrong?

Many people commit fraud without even realizing it. And whatever manipulated this man to believe that it was a good idea...again would be a creation of God, just as he is.

4.

You are imagining a metaphysics in which God determines our perspective, puts us into a dangerous situation, and lets us suffer for it. This is false, just by looking at the world in which we live - our perspectives are not determined (people change, people see things in new ways, people learn from mistakes, people ponder over dilemmas, etc) and our situation is never so dangerous (we often foresee where we might go wrong. For example, we foresee the damage anger may inflict, etc) and we are never blameworthy for things we had no choice in (we are not blamed for accidents we couldn't avoid but we are blamed for accidents we could avoid but decided not to, deliberate negligence, etc)

God has created the environment that manipulates our perspective, he has created us in a way in which we would be manipulated by that environment, and he does indeed let us suffer for it. And i dont know what non dangerous world you are familiar with, but last i checked, humanity was a big killing machine of ourselves and everything else on this planet. This isnt some lovely peacefull planet. How often do we hear of war? Every day? Whens the last time you've went a day without eating another animal that was slaughtered for your consumption? Whens the last time you've walked outside and seen an area of land not demolished and replaced by buildings? Life is dangerous, many things about it are, and in many countries people dont live very long at all, and im not about to sit here and blame ourselves for this. A starving child in Africa did not choose this nor did he sin and bring it onto himself. And if the kid goes and steels someone elses food, sure id say its somewhat wrong, but who is really to blame here? I dont think the id is, he may have done wrong, but he did so for lack of better option, and being a kid he wouldnt know a better option anyway.

5. Am I responsible for being rude to you now? I have a choice. I could be rude to you, in order to make an ad hominem attack, or I could be polite, and let the ideas speak. I have a motivation for both, and I have the capability of both. I know that being rude is not nice, it can hurt, it's irrelevant to an argument, and it undermines my integrity. I also know that being polite does the exact opposite. Morally, my conscience favours the latter. But, there is a tension. I'm really frustrated with you. I wouldn't mind scoring a low point off you, just to express my contempt. You're a non-Muslim as well, so I'm not even sinning. Probably, I'm doing a great service to my faith, playing hardline.

anything u wish to supply ill take. I may jump the gun on people, but ultimately i never really get mad at anyone on this site, it is just a forum. So if you would like to try blowing some steam, i dont mind. Sometimes i like tough love.

Say I swore at you, insulted you. Would you say, given my moral dilemma and moral deliberations above, I was to blame or not. We are talking realistically (God created a real and realistic world) - how would you treat me?

No i dont think you would be to blame. Sure it would be your choice, but your choice is determined by a multitude of things that are ultimately the creation of God, assuming God created it all. I would be Gods creation tempting you to insult me, your childhood and those who raised you...products of creation, their environment and opinions...products of creation. Everything you have ever known and everything that determines how you act, is something created by God, not created by you. The reason you think the way you do? Its because you were created that way, and your opinions develop based on other created things.

And how would I treat you? Honestly Jebriel, you're the last person id ever get mad at around here, you could say what you'd like and i would probably treat you the same. Theres no reason to be mad at anyone on these forums, even the rudest of people on forums mean little to our lives...imo. And i dont mean that in a rude way, i do respect you and others here, but I see no reason anyone would really care too much.

Basically Jebriel, it sounds to me like youre trying to pass the blame to humanity. As if we are the ones responsible for the violent and dangerous world we live in. I dont think so, we didnt choose to live in this, we were born into it and we joined the fight because we have no other choice. Its a dog eat dog world, you either feast, or you die, and id rather feast and pass the blame on whomever created the world, rather than starve and act like its a bad thing to follow the rules which we were created by.

Edited February 17, 2012 by iDevonian

[iDevonian]

OOF, smacked it bro. Good use of the english language too. we need more shias like you to convert people.

And he hasnt smacked anything, he hasnt even really said anything. I dont even think he has really tried yet.

The blind man analogy was terrible.

and if anyone has their own analogy, provide it...

(bismillah)

Salam,

I would just like to understand this blind man falling into a hole statement better,

just out of curiosity, you make it seem like its an everyday situation that a hole MAY be present for a blind man.

Questions:

1: What blind man walks down a street with holes? you can google it if you want for fun lol

2. Is there no one present to warn him , a person who is blind has a greater sense of hearing.

3. Does he not have a guide , a walking stick, a dog or anything?

4. Would there just be a hole in the ground with no signs around it or barriers blocking even a REGULAR person from falling into it.

5. Even if the blind man decides to walk in an area with such potential danger is it not HIS decision that caused his falling into a hole?

6.The situation seems like an unlikely one , and im not making assumptions all i'm saying is why put so much effort into making such an unlikely situation to prove whether its gods "responsibility" or "fault" , why make such an unlikely situation an example? i don't get it. Are we keen on making it seem what we want it to seem?

7.The issue of this innocent blind man into walking into this hole , is HIS fault yes it is , its an unlikely situation and even if it did happen , what blind man would not check or ask or find out about the places he walks around.

So basically for the blind man to walk into the hole it requires either:

A: No people around to witness , warn or tell him.

B: No barriers/signs around this mysteriously , and i'm assuming deep hole? , if it wasn't deep it wouldn't cause him much harm.

C: No guide , walking stick or dog with this blind man.

A situation with none of the above cannot be possible rationally , and if it can, say it was a crater or something we have to assume this man just happened to be on some mountain or whatever it may be, this BLIND man decided for some reason hes going to venture into this area.

AND EVEN IF IT WAS POSSIBLE ,the mere fact that he would have made that decisions means the consequence is the result of his decisions and has nothing to do with god, but rather himself.

I think we tend to try to test with these situations , i think rather we should take in the likeliness of the situation and the reality of your theory, because if the practical application wouldn't work.

Then you need to go back to the drawing board.

Wasalam.

and for you, you should quote me so my name is visible, im just now noticing that you've been talking to me, sorry if it looked like i was ignoring you. Normally topics have so many people talking, that I skim past ones that dont appear to be directed at me.

On the blind man concept though, i think everyone is looking too much into this, if you guys have another analogy, provide it. My statement popped up off the top of my head, i didnt bother to sit and think through every detail, i was just providing an example of how we are given challanges in life, and how we go about dealing with those challanges, if we choose to sin, isnt necisserily something that is our fault. Thats all.

Most bad people in this world really arent that bad. Murderers and thieves...odds are they were good people, they just got pulled into bad situations beyond their control, and they chose to act based on how theyve been created to act and based on things that have manipulated them to act that way (those things that have manipulated them also being created things).

There are billions of murderers and thieves that live amongst us, every country has a military full of killing machines. Every country has its fair share of ghettos, where people commit many crimes just for the sake of survival. Humanity was brought into a world of violence...we did not choose this, and we are not at fault. Thats all there is to it. Look at your own fellow muslims. A great deal of fighting in the middle east isnt done by evil people, its done by good people in an environment created full of corruption. Sure we make the choice to wage war against eachother, but ultimately, this is not our creation, this is Gods creation. We are not the ones to blame. The creator created, and is responsible for his creation, thats how it goes. Even suicide bombers i wouldnt say are truly evil. We are just people living a life that we were born into, fighting for life as we were born to do in a world of violence which was created for us to live in.

It baffles me how people seem to think that we are the ones responsible for corruption in the world, as if we are the creators of evil. We didnt create anything, we are the creation. (Assuming you believe in God as a creator as scripture states it).

Humanity and life in general has been a destructive, war bound and violent creation for hundreds of millions of years. Before people even had the intelligence or mind to even make clear decisions, we were out destroying others. Whether we were whiping out the mastodons just 10k years ago, whiping out the germans just a generation or 2 ago in ww2, of if you really want to go back, when we were tearing others apart with our sharp reptile like teeth. This is what we are, and this is the world we live in.

Thats not to say we cant change, but i will be the last person to place at least majority of blame on myself or any other human for acting in a way in which he or she was created to act..."good" or "bad" or anywhere in between. Even the good actions we perform are the product of something beyond ourselves.

But of course I am not a theist, so i wouldnt believe in any of these concepts of good and bad anyway for this reason amongst others.

Edited February 17, 2012 by iDevonian