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Haydar Husayn

Inquiries About Shia Islam(shifa'a And Istighatha)

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Some people seem to be under the impression that the book Inquiries About Shia Islam by Sayyid Mustafa Qazwini contains proof of tawassul, so I thought I'd make a thread looking at what evidence is provided. My comments are in blue within the text.

Intercession (Shifa'ah)

The issue of intercession (shifa'ah) is one of the most controversial issues within Islam. The Shi`a school of thought and some schools within the Sunni tradition believe in the concept of intercession, while others, like Whahabism reject it and say that whoever believes in it is not a Muslim; a heretic.

Either the author is ignorant or he is a liar. Wahhabis do not reject intercession: http://islamqa.info/en/ref/26259

The Quran addresses this issue in three manners. First, there are verses which negate the shifa`ah, such as 2:123 and 2:254. Second, there are verses which say that the shifa`ah is exclusively the domain of Allah—He and only He has the ability to intercede, such as in 6:70 and 39:44. Third, there are verses which take precedence over the first two categories and it is in these verses that the power and ability of shifa`ah is best defined. They state that while the shifa`ah is the absolute right of Allah; nevertheless, if He wishes, He could extend it to certain people of His creation. The Quran states:

No intercessor can plead with Him except after His permission. [Quran 10:3]

Who is he that can intercede with Him except with His permission? [Quran 2:255]

On that Day, no intercession shall avail, except the one from whom Allah, the Most Gracious has given permission and whose word is acceptable to Him.[Quran 20:109]

And they cannot intercede, except for Him with whom He is pleased. [Quran 21:28]

None shall have the power of intercession except such a one as has received permission or a promise from Allah, the Most Gracious.[Quran 19:87]

Intercession with Him profits not except for He whom He permits. [Quran 34:23]

According to these verses, certain people will have permission from Allah—such as prophets, imams, and awliya’ (intimate friend of Allah)—to intercede and help people by the permission of Allah. Without His permission, no intercession will be accepted. Even during their lifetime, prophets had the ability to intercede on behalf of those who repented and sought forgiveness and returned to the path of Allah. Allah states:

We sent no messenger but to be obeyed by the leave of Allah. If they who have been unjust to themselves had come to you

(Prophet Muhammad) and begged Allah’s forgiveness, and the Messenger had begged forgiveness for them—indeed they would

have found Allah All-Forgiving, Most Merciful. [Quran 4:64]

(The brothers of Yusuf) said, “O our father! Ask forgiveness from Allah for our sins. Indeed, we have been sinners.” He said, “I

will ask my Lord for forgiveness for you.” Verily, He, only He, is the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. [Quran 12:97-98]

The Holy Prophet Muhammad has also mentioned his own intercession:

I will be interceding on the Day of Judgment for whoever has faith in his heart. [al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Kanz al-Ummal. Hadith 39043.]

Each prophet before me asked Allah for something which he was granted, and I saved my request till the Day of Judgment for intercession on behalf of my nation. [al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Kanz al-Ummal]

My intercession will be for the people who committed the cardinal sins (al-kaba'ir) except shirk and dhulm (polytheism and oppression). [al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Kanz al-Ummal]

The intercessors are five: the Quran, near relatives, trusts (amanah), your Prophet, and the family of your Prophet. [al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Kanz al-Ummal. Hadith 39041]

Something I'd like to point out is that Kanz al-Ummal is a Sunni book, and it's rather sad that the books many Shias rely upon to teach them what to believe are full of Sunni ahadith rather than Shia ones.

Shifa`ah is not to ask the Prophet or the imams for protection or to ward off calamity or to bring happiness and success. Rather, it is to plead to Allah, the Almighty by the sake of those who are near to Him, like the prophets and the imams.

As the Holy Quran asserts, only those who receive promise and permission from Allah can intercede and help people on the Day of Judgment. Intercession will be for those with good intentions and good belief in this life, who neither defied Allah nor challenged His authority and yet, perhaps fell behind in part of their religious obligations. Their good record will help them to receive the intercession

of the messengers, the imams, and the believers on the Day of Judgment.

Imam Ja`far al-Sadiq, the sixth imam of the school of Ahlul-Bayt, at the time of his martyrdom called his relatives and companions and said, “Verily, our intercession never reaches the one who takes prayers lightly.” [al-Majlisi, Bihar al-Anwar. 82.236]

Shifa`ah is not to ask the Prophet or the imams for protection or to ward off calamity or to bring happiness and success.
As the Holy Quran asserts, only those who receive promise and permission from Allah can intercede and help people on the Day of Judgment. Intercession will be for those with good intentions and good belief in this life, who neither defied Allah nor challenged His authority and yet, perhaps fell behind in part of their religious obligations. Their good record will help them to receive the intercession of the messengers, the imams, and the believers on the Day of Judgment.

As far as I can tell this chapter generally rather works against the defenders of tawassul, since it makes it clear the intercession mentioned in the Qur'an is only on the Day of Judgement.

Even during their lifetime, prophets had the ability to intercede on behalf of those who repented and sought forgiveness and returned to the path of Allah.

I'm not sure where he gets that from. All those verses show is prophets were asked to pray to Allah for the forgiveness of others, but this is not limited to prophets. Anyone can pray for someone else to be forgiven, even if prophets are more likely to have their prayers accepted than us. Their prayers are not guaranteed to be accepted however:

It is not (fit) for the Prophet and those who believe that they should ask forgiveness for the polytheists, even though they should be near relatives, after it has become clear to them that they are inmates of the flaming fire. [9:113]

And Nuh cried out to his Lord and said: My Lord! surely my son is of my family, and Thy promise is surely true, and Thou art the most just of the judges. He said: O Nuh! surely he is not of your family; surely he is (the doer of) other than good deeds, therefore ask not of Me that of which you have no knowledge; surely I admonish you lest you may be of the ignorant [11:46-47]

And when it is said to them: Come, the Messenger of Allah will ask forgiveness for you, they turn back their heads and you may see them turning away while they are big with pride. It is alike to them whether you beg forgiveness for them or do not beg forgiveness for them; Allah will never forgive them; surely Allah does not guide the transgressing people. [63:5-6]

Calling Upon the Holy Prophet and the Imams for Help

Calling upon the Holy Prophet and the imams (also called istighathat al-nabi wal-a’immah) is allegorical, not literal. The Holy Quran teaches people to worship and seek help from Allah (“iyyaka na‘budu wa iyyaka nasta‘in”). However, the allegorical seeking of help is permitted by the example of the Holy Quran. For example, in the story of Prophet Musa (Moses), “And he found there two men fighting—one from his party (shi'a), the other from his foes. The man of his own party asked him (istighathahu) for help against his foe, so Musa struck him with his fist and killed him.” [Quran 28:15]

Seriously? What does the fact that someone asked Musa (as) for help prove at all? What he needs to be proving here is someone calling on a person who is not within hearing distance being allowed. That would at least be a start. Does he even need to Quran to prove that it's permissible to ask someone for help?

Many of the narrators of hadith narrate a prayer (du'a) from the Holy Prophet which begins, “O my Lord! I turn to you by your Prophet, the Prophet of Mercy (Allahumma, inni atawajjahu ilayka bi nabiyyika nabi al-rahma…).” Then it says, “O Muhammad! I turn to Allah by you to solve my difficulties.” [ibn Majah. Tirmidhi, al-Nisa’i. “al-Husn al-Hasin.” Ibn al-Juzri] Again, it is narrated that the feet of ‘Abdullah ibn Umar al-Khattab became disabled and would no longer carry him. After being told to call upon the closest people to his heart, he said, “Wa Muhammada!” His feet were cured and worked properly again.[al-Samhudi. Shifa’ al-Asqam]

All Sunni references, so of no importance to us. It's funny that it is those who oppose these practices who get accused of being influenced by the Sunnis though.

The Holy Quran teaches us to “seek help through patience and prayer (sabr and salat).” [Quran 2:45] Sabr (according to Quran commentators, “sabr” in this context refers to fasting) and salat (prayers) are means which lead ultimately to Allah. Thus calling upon the Holy Prophet or Imam Ali is allegorical since all agree that Allah is the means of support, aid, and assistance.

Where is the Shia hadith to back up this interpreation? And what does 'allegorical' mean? If you mean to call upon Allah, then call upon him. My guess is the author is not being very honest here, and is trying to get people to accept this 'allegorical' calling on other than Allah, so that later on they will easily accept actually calling on other than Allah.

Some Muslims associate calling upon the Holy Prophet or the imams with shirk (heresy). They argue that a person should not ask any person for help. But if a person is faced with a problem in life, then would this person not logically and naturally call upon a person nearby for help?

The operative word being 'nearby'.

If a person was about to drown and he called out for help, then would his seeking of help from one other than Allah make him a mushrik (associating one with Allah)?

If he is calling on someone as he would Allah, then yes, he would be a mushrik. Even the pagan Arabs didn't do that.

And when affliction touches a man, he calls on Us, whether lying on his side or sitting or standing; but when We remove his affliction from him, he passes on as though he had never called on Us on account of an affliction that touched him; thus that which they do is made fair-seeming to the extravagant. [10:12]

He it is Who makes you travel by land and sea; until when you are in the ships, and they sail on with them in a pleasant breeze, and they rejoice, a violent wind overtakes them and the billows surge in on them from all sides, and they become certain that they are encompassed about, they pray to Allah, being sincere to Him in obedience: If Thou dost deliver us from this, we will most certainly be of the grateful ones. Yet when He hath delivered them, behold! they rebel in the earth wrongfully. O mankind! Your rebellion is only against yourselves. (Ye have) enjoyment of the life of the world; then unto Us is your return and We shall proclaim unto you what ye used to do. [10:22-23]

By the same reasoning, calling upon the Holy Prophet or the imams is not shirk.

What reasoning? The fact that asking someone nearby for something means that you can call on beings other than Allah as if they are omipresent, omiscient, and all-powerful? Do people really think this is correct reasoning? Do they not see how they are being hoodwinked?

The argument that they cannot be called upon because they are dead is also invalid, since the Quran falsifies the notion of the martyrs as being dead, “Think not of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead. Nay, they are alive with their Lord, and they have provision.” [Quran 3:169] “And say not of those who are killed in the way of Allah, ‘They are dead.’ Nay, they are living, but you perceive it not.” [Quran 2:154]

Except this is a complete strawman, because it's not at all the primary objection to why you can't call on them. And in any case, although they are not dead, they are not of this world either. Again, a hadith from the Imams (as) to back up the fact that these ayats prove it is permissible to call upon the Imams (as) would have been good, or simply that these ayats mean they can hear us from anywhere and can help us, but no such luck.

If an ordinary Muslim was martyred (for the cause of Allah) is considered to be alive, then how could the Holy Prophet and his family, who were not only martyrs but whose rank also surpassed that of all other human beings, be considered dead? Calling upon the Holy Prophet and his family does not negate the fact that Allah is the source of help and rescue in this universe. However, because these people are closest to Him, and because they enjoy a special status with Him, calling upon them means calling upon Allah for the sake of those whom He loves.

Why not just call on Allah then? And where is the proof? A whole chapter, and not one single Shia hadith to prove his case, just speculation. And then you get people claiming we should be listening to these types of 'scholars' rather than just reading what is in the Quran.

Edited by Haydar Husayn

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The Holy Quran teaches us to “seek help through patience and prayer (sabr and salat).” [Quran 2:45] Sabr (according to Quran commentators, “sabr” in this context refers to fasting) and salat (prayers) are means which lead ultimately to Allah. Thus calling upon the Holy Prophet or Imam Ali is allegorical since all agree that Allah is the means of support, aid, and assistance.

Where is the Shia hadith to back up this interpreation? And what does 'allegorical' mean? If you mean to call upon Allah, then call upon him. My guess is the author is not being very honest here, and is trying to get people to accept this 'allegorical' calling on other than Allah, so that later on they will easily accept actually calling on other than Allah.

(bismillah)

(salam)

There is no reason why the scholar would "not be very honest" and try to deceive people. I disagree with tawassul [unless strong proof is bought for it], but the scholar was most likely just saying what he believes to be true, theres no need for his intentions to be questioned since his intentions are between him and Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì.

(wasalam)

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There is no reason why the scholar would "not be very honest" and try to deceive people. I disagree with tawassul [unless strong proof is bought for it], but the scholar was most likely just saying what he believes to be true, theres no need for his intentions to be questioned since his intentions are between him and Allah سبحانه وتعالى.

There is a good reason, because to get people to accept these things, you need to draw them in gradually. And I'm sorry, but when someone is calling towards shirk, I don't really care about giving them the benefit of the doubt.

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HH, you have every right to criticize people in a constructive and academic manner (like you have mostly done), but to make it seem as if people have an agenda to mislead people on purpose is bang out of order.

Why is it out of order? From my point of view it makes sense.

Lets give this a bit of logical thought, if the Prophet (saw) and Aimmah (as) are WITNESS to our every action then obviously they can hear us when we ask Them (as) to go before Allah on our behalf, because They (saw) are in fact the beloved of Allah

Where in the hadith does it say every action? Also, you are extrapolating way too much from it. You don't know in what sense they are witness to our deeds, and I seriously doubt that spend all their time in barzakh watching what we are doing. And considering we have explicit ahadith that they don't hear our salam unless we our near their grave, then clearly that can't be the case.

Even if you could establish that they could hear you, and could help you (neither of which is proven), then you still have the problem that calling on them in this way is not permissible, as the Quran and ahadith state. Stick with what is clear, and don't get misled by what isn't.

He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding. [3:7]

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Why is it out of order? From my point of view it makes sense.

Do you honestly believe that most other Muslims (Shias) who have different views to yours have an agenda to mislead people on purpose?

If yes, then I find that a wrong attitude.

I know what I say will make no difference to your attitude (it was a waste of time making that 'Clear The Air' thread as you've ignored everything), so you go ahead and just continue to speak harshly to people and about people.

We all know it's your way or the highway. Anyone who doesn't agree with you is deviated and hellbound. We get it.

Edited by Replicant

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Do you honestly believe that most other Muslims (Shias) who have different views to yours have an agenda to mislead people on purpose?

If yes, then I find that a wrong attitude.

I know what I say will make no difference to your attitude (it was a waste of time making that 'Clear The Air' thread as you've ignored everything), so you go ahead and just continue to speak harshly to people and about people.

We all know it's your way or the highway. Anyone who doesn't agree with you is deviated and hellbound. We get it.

I think what that thread revealed what how bad the general reading comprehension is on this site, and how much people read into my posts that isn't there. All you've done is reinforced that once again.

I never said everyone that has a different opinion to me is seaking to mislead people, but when that person is a top 'scholar', then yes, that is what I think. Especially when I look at the arguments they use, and consider that nobody with that level of knowledge can be stupid enough to think those arguments are good.

And I never said that everyone who disagrees with me is hellbound either. Stop being so sensitive and grow up. The general maturity levels of Shias on this site is appalling, even among admins and mods.

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I think what that thread revealed what how bad the general reading comprehension is on this site, and how much people read into my posts that isn't there. All you've done is reinforced that once again.

No, you just use this excuse to escape this.

If I say "You are not a female", that implies that you are a male.

If I then say "I didn't call you a male", I would be insulting people's intelligence and taking them for mugs.

Just because you don't say something doesn't mean you didn't imply it.

This is what you do and then use the 'but I didn't say it' tactic to avoid it.

I never said everyone that has a different opinion to me is seaking to mislead people, but when that person is a top 'scholar', then yes, that is what I think. Especially when I look at the arguments they use, and consider that nobody with that level of knowledge can be stupid enough to think those arguments are good.

That's fine - but what's wrong with saying it nicely? Why not, 'This is Sayed Qazwini's opinion, I beg to differ, and here is why...'

Why put the words scholar in inverted commas as a dig and suggest he wants to mislead people on purpose? How do you know that?

I think it is fine to raise the issues you have been raising, but it's not what you say that is the problem, it's how you say it.

And I never said that everyone who disagrees with me is hellbound either. Stop being so sensitive and grow up. The general maturity levels of Shias on this site is appalling, even among admins and mods.

Thanks, this shows your arrogance perfectly. You are the best, everyone else is inferior to you. You are the yardstick of maturity. If I don't nod and smile at what you say and stand up to you, I am too sensitive. This is what bullies do.

Edited by Replicant

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^

(bismillah)

(salam)

JazakAllah Khair for posting it bro, but to me logically it doesn't seem to justify that the A'immah [as] can hear us based on that narration.

I think the best thing for me to do would be to speak to a scholar soon, and sit down and have a long discussion about tawassul with him.

insha'Allah when I next go to a majlis I will do just that.

(wasalam)

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Why not present the other hadiths that explain this? Such as this one from Tafsir al-`Ayyashi:

319 ـ عن زرارة عن بريد العجلي قال: قلت لابي جعفر (عليه السلام) في قول الله " اعملوا فسيرى الله عملكم ورسوله والمؤمنون " فقال: ما من مؤمن يموت ولا كافر يوضع في قبره حتى يعرض عمله على رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله) وعلي فهلم إلى آخر من فرض الله طاعته على العباد.

From Zurara from Burayd al-`Ijli. He said: Abu Ja`far عليه السلام said to me regarding the saying of Allah “Act, and Allah shall see your deeds and His Messenger and the believers”. So he said: There is no believer who dies or kafir, who is placed in his grave until his deeds are presented to the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله and `Ali and onward to the last one whose obedience Allah has obliged upon the servants.

How exactly this presenting of deeds works I wouldn't claim to know, however this certainly doesn't imply some type of all-knowing omniscience, or justify doing du`a to them.

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No, you just use this excuse to escape this.

If I say "You are not a female", that implies that you are a male.

If I then say "I didn't call you a male", I would be insulting people's intelligence and taking them for mugs.

Just because you don't say something doesn't mean you didn't imply it.

This is what you do and then use the 'but I didn't say it' tactic to avoid it.

If there were only two reasonable options, then sure. However, saying that one person who I disagree with is misleading, does not imply everyone I disagree with is misleading. Surely that is obvious? Especially in Islam, we know that a lot depends on the level of knowledge a person has, etc. This isn't really an excuse that can be used here however.

Just to be clear though, I do not believe that everyone who disagrees with me is trying to be misleading. Most are just misled themselves.

That's fine - but what's wrong with saying it nicely? Why not, 'This is Sayed Qazwini's opinion, I beg to differ, and here is why...'

Why put the words scholar in inverted commas as a dig and suggest he wants to mislead people on purpose? How do you know that?

I think it is fine to raise the issues you have been raising, but it's not what you say that is the problem, it's how you say it.

Why can't people focus on the substance rather than the form? If you shared my beliefs, or even just tried to see things from my point of view for a bit, then you would easily understand why I am being so harsh here.

But you know, I could just as well ask you why you weren't nicer when talking to me in this thread. You came in accused me of being 'bang out of order', and then when I asked why, you made all kinds of false accusations and said I had a bad attitude. Who started being hostile here? You or me?

Thanks, this shows your arrogance perfectly. You are the best, everyone else is inferior to you. You are the yardstick of maturity. If I don't nod and smile at what you say and stand up to you, I am too sensitive. This is what bullies do.

Again, where did I say that? Why do you have to keep distorting and exaggerating what I say?

And yes, you are too sensitive, but not because you don't agree with me. There are plenty of people who disagree with me on many things, but I don't accuse them of being sensitive or lacking in maturity.

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Salam alaykom Haydar in your opinion do the people who believe in tawwasul fall under polytheist in your sight? if so then woulden't that also be agreeing with that under islamic goverment they should be put to death under the pentaly of apostate? if you agree to all the above then you would be holding that these terroist bombings of shias is justfied and that alot of peopel are just like they say "mushriks" - you do realize all this right ? just pointing out this major issue.

Edited by Maitham

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Salam alaykom Haydar in your opinion do the people who believe in tawwasul fall under polytheist in your sight?

Depends on what you mean by tawassul. People mean different things when they say that, so I would need an example to decide whether I thought it was shirk or not. Here is a hadith, you can decide whether what you are thinking of falls under shirk or not:

from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: I said to him: Verily these `awamm claim that shirk is more obscure than the creeping of the ant in a dark night upon the black haircloth. So he said: The servant is not a mushrik until he prays to other than Allah, or slaughters (an animal) for other than Allah, or supplicates to other than Allah `azza wa jalla.

if so then woulden't that also be agreeing with that under islamic goverment they should be put to death under the pentaly of apostate?

Sure, under the government of Imam Mahdi (as), he could decide to put such people to death. It's his job though, not mine.

if you agree to all the above then you would be holding that these terroist bombings of shias is justfied and that alot of peopel are just like they say "mushriks" - you do realize all this right ? just pointing out this major issue.

No. It's not up to one group of heretics to judge another group of heretics. Terrorists have no authority to judge anyone.

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But hayder is it jusfied in your heart or mind? not about who is doing it.

and i personally do not say Ya Ali madad from what i understand people do this intending that the imam (as) asks Allah correct? nor do i recite nade ali

i have asked holy people to pray to Allah for me before. that is seldom.

Maybe in line with what i mentioned above or and dua tawwasul.

May Allah guide us all to what is right in his sight.

I would see it a major falacy to ask someone in this realm or in barkzak believing that they are the one fulfilling your need (the source of what you want) when it gets into asking someone else to ask Allah this is where the issue becomes a diffirent issue. unless the pagan arabs that those verses you qoute were about believed that their false gods had no power of thesmelfs and only ask Allah for the person.

in Shia hadith even believing that the ability which you stand and sit is your own, or that you share partners with it with Allah imam (as) showed us in his saying to abaya that that would mean the punnishment of death. (apostate) and that believing it only belongs to Allah is correct.

Those of you who know who i am in the past will know i use to stand with sayyid fadlullah views. I only want to reach views that are correct to Allah. there seems to be much research that needs to be done through both qu'ran and hadith about tawwasul. and only by Allah's guidence can one reach the proper destination.

Edited by Maitham

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But hayder is it jusfied in your heart or mind? not about who is doing it.

Blowing people up for their beliefs is not justified in my mind, no. And I don't believe anyone can carry out the death penalty for apostasy of this type but the Imam (as).

and i personally do not say Ya Ali madad from what i understand people do this intending that the imam (as) asks Allah correct?

I think most people say it with the intention of Ali (as) helping them, since apparently he controls every atom in the universe,

nor do i recite nade ali

i have asked holy people to pray to Allah for me before. that is seldom.

Maybe in line with what i mentioned above or and dua tawwasul.

Just stay away from anything doubtful, that's my advice. If you think it might be shirk, then don't do it.

May Allah guide us all to what is right in his sight.

Ameen.

I would see it a major falacy to ask someone in this realm or in barkzak believing that they are the one fulfilling your need (the source of what you want) when it gets into asking someone else to ask Allah this is where the issue becomes a diffirent issue. unless the pagan arabs that those verses you qoute were about believed that their false gods had no power of thesmelfs and only ask Allah for the person.

in Shia hadith even believing that the ability which you stand and sit is your own, or that you share partners with it with Allah imam (as) showed us in his saying to abaya that that would be mean the punnishment for death. (apostate) and that believing it only belongs to Allah is correct.

Those of you who know who i am in the past will know i use to stand with sayyid fadlullah views. I only want to reach views that are correct to Allah. there seems to be much research that needs to be done through both qu'ran and hadith about tawwasul. and only with Allah's guidence can one reach the proper destination.

Well, nobody is going to say that Allah isn't the ultimate source of all power. But they will say Allah has given the Imams powers, like controlling every atom in the universe. So they can make use of those powers, although of course they would never do anything that contradicts the will of Allah.

It's a step by step process. They get you believing one thing that doesn't seem so bad, and then another, and then another, and then before you know it you are a full-blown mushrik.

It works a bit like this:

1) The Imams are a means of closeness to Allah, so why not ask them to pray to Allah on you behalf. After all, people did this in the Quran, and the Imams are not dead. Of course they can hear you. Do you think Allah isn't capable of allowing them to hear? Why are you limiting Allah?

2) We are not worthy of supplicating directly to Allah, so we should always ask the Imams to do it on our behalf. Think of it this way, Allah communicated to us via the Prophet (pbuh) and Imams (as), so why shouldn't we communicate to Him through them? We are not worthy of speaking directly to Allah anyway, since we are full of sin. Only infallibles can do that.

3) As a short cut just supplicate to the Imams, but it's just 'allegorical'. In reality you are still supplicating to Allah though. So don't worry about it, it doesn't mean anything.

4) Supplicate to the Imams directly, asking them for help. The way they will help you is be supplicating to Allah for you. Nothing wrong with that, right?

5) The Imams have been given control over all the atoms of the universe, and know everything in the past, present and future, so in fact they can help you directly without needing to ask Allah to do so. Don't worry though, because they would never do anything against the will of Allah, and their power ultimately comes from Allah. So it's not shirk.

I may be missing some more steps here, or not mentioning some of the typical arguments, but this is roughly how it works.

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Brother is there proof that scholars say only ask the imam (as) that is not just an opinion that may or may not be among the people?

Edited by Maitham

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Brother is there proof that scholars say only ask the imam (as) that is not just an opinion that may or may not be among the people?

What is Nade Ali if not asking the Imam (as)?

Call Ali, who is Manifestor of wonders, Thou shall surely find him helper in your difficulties, all grief and sorrow shall be removed.

http://www.duas.org/Misc/nade_ali_kabeer.htm

There are many videos on youtube showing Shia scholars saying ridiculous things, but understandably the videos are put together by Sunnis who want to paint us all as mushriks, so if I post them people will reject them based on that, and accuse me of all kinds of things. Just go on youtube, and do a search for 'shia shirk', or search terms like that. If you really can't find anything, send me a PM, and I'll send you some videos.

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i meant the belief that asking Allah (SWT) is abograted with asking the imam (as) instead.

and well brother you need some refrences not videos that sometimes call shia scholars rabbi's ;) so maybe you should go research the matter in shia books and come back and show me what scholars say one should only ask the imam (as) and never ask Allah. again my idea of tawwasul is (asking Allah + Asking others to ask Allah like dua tawwasul - and even this i think i need to research it more - ) nade ali from my limited insight is a poem.

How about a Marja ?

Edited by Maitham

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i meant the belief that asking Allah (SWT) is abograted with asking the imam (as) instead.

and well brother you need some refrences not videos that sometimes call shia scholars rabbi's ;) so maybe you should go research teh matter in shia books and come back and show me what scholars say one should only ask the imam (as) and never ask Allah. again my idea o tawwasul is (asking Allah + Asking others to ask Allah like dua tawwasul - and even this i think i need to research it more) nade ali form my limited insight is a poem.

I doubt anyone would say you should never ask Allah, but they would say it's not as good as going through the Imams (as). Otherwise what would the point be?

As for who makes the videos, I don't think that is as important as what is said in the videos by some Shia 'scholars'. And regarding nade ali, you have many scholars saying it is authentic, and they certainly don't dismiss it as a 'poem'.

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General ignorance on the part of the author. On the other side you have wahabis who write books full of misleading 'facts' about shias but actually believe it to be true. But of course, soke people who read the above will take it to be gospel.

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General ignorance on the part of the author. On the other side you have wahabis who write books full of misleading 'facts' about shias but actually believe it to be true. But of course, soke people who read the above will take it to be gospel.

Imam Sayed Mustafa Al-Qazwini was born in the city of Karbala, in the year 1961. He initiated his higher religious studies in Qom, Iran where he was awarded with a BA and MA in Islamic Studies in 1985. During 1987-1989 he served as a professor of Islamic Studies at the Islamic seminary in Damascus, Syria. From 1989-1994 he contributed as associated imam and professor of Islamic Studies at several Islamic centers and foundations in London, England.

Shortly after his arrival in California in 1994, Sayed Moustafa Al-Qazwini became the founder and director of the Islamic Cultural Center of San Diego, California. His prosperity in San Diego paved the way for his next mission—a mosque in Orange County, California. In September 1996, he founded the Islamic Educational Center of Orange County. As the founder and director of IECOC, he serves as a mentor and facilitator for the Muslims.

Imam Al-Qazwini is chairman of the Development and World Events Committee of the Islamic Shura Council of Southern California, and a board member of the council of Shia Muslim scholars of North America. He spends much of his time lecturing across the nation at churches, universities and on panels with other parishioners.He is a charismatic leader who has achieved recognition as an educator, leader, and author.

http://www.shiamultimedia.com/englishmajalis1.html

:dry:

Anyway, it's interesting that nobody has really tried much to defend the arguments made in the chapters I quoted. For a start, maybe someone would like to take a shot at upholding the view that Wahhabis don't believe in any kind of intercession. That should be good.

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Anyway, it's interesting that nobody has really tried much to defend the arguments made in the chapters I quoted. For a start, maybe someone would like to take a shot at upholding the view that Wahhabis don't believe in any kind of intercession. That should be good.

He is specifically talking about the type of intercession that you are denouncing, which the Wahabbi ideology also consider a form of heresy. Show me exactly where he writes that the Wahabbi do not believe in any type of intercession. You're assuming a presupposition that is non-existent. Read between the lines more carefully.

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He is specifically talking about the type of intercession that you are denouncing, which the Wahabbi ideology also consider a form of heresy. Show me exactly where he writes that the Wahabbi do not believe in any type of intercession. You're assuming a presupposition that is non-existent. Read between the lines more carefully.

Intercession (Shifa'ah)

The issue of intercession (shifa'ah) is one of the most controversial issues within Islam. The Shi`a school of thought and some schools within the Sunni tradition believe in the concept of intercession, while others, like Whahabism reject it and say that whoever believes in it is not a Muslim; a heretic.

Either the author is ignorant or he is a liar. Wahhabis do not reject intercession: http://islamqa.info/en/ref/26259

Shafa`ah is not the type of intercession I reject. This is the intercession on the Day of Judgement, which all Muslims accept since it is in the Quran. Explain to me how he can begin a chapter on shafa`ah, a chapter which is almost entirely about the Day of Judgement, say that Wahhabis reject it, but still mean that they believe in it? That doesn't make sense.

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You'd be surprised at how many ignorant people there are, no matter how educated. Dont forget that many people also tend to see the 'opposition' through blurred vision ie. they are wahabi, ergo they hate xxx or they are shia so must therefore do xxx.

Anyway, could he be purposely lying? Sure, there is that chance.

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Shafa`ah is not the type of intercession I reject. This is the intercession on the Day of Judgement, which all Muslims accept since it is in the Quran. Explain to me how he can begin a chapter on shafa`ah, a chapter which is almost entirely about the Day of Judgement, say that Wahhabis reject it, but still mean that they believe in it? That doesn't make sense.

You do know that intercession isn't only limited to that definition, right? It also defines seeking an intermediary before God, which is what the author is referring to specifically, and this is a dimension of intercession of which the Wahhabis reject outright. I admit that he should have avoided ambiguity. All schools of thought unanimously agree in intercession on Judgement Day, so logic dictates that he is not referring to this form of it.

So he didn't say anything incorrect here. If you think about it, most Wahhabis don't really believe in intercession at all. They show utmost abhorrence towards it. Saying that they believe in intercession on Judgement Day is irrelevant, it's not the same, it's just ideological but never actualized in their world.

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Salam Haydar,

I find that your posts are stimulating to rethink whether our belief is rational & backed by strong proof from primary Islamic sources (al-Qur'an & ahadith).

But, if I may suggest, it'll be better if you can keep it cool & rational (e.g. "wrong because ....") instead of getting caught in emotional words (e.g. "liar") which serve no purpose in the discussion & conveying your message so that people will accept it (or, at least, think about it). In fact, it's contra productive & can make people reluctant to see beyond it to the actual content that you want to convey.

I strongly suggest to you to package your content in a way that'll more acceptable to the majority of people, as we must also deliver the truth in a good way (or if we can, good & simple way so people can digest it easily).

Nevertheless, regarding this discussion, let's make it simple. Your interpretation of the al-Qur'an & ahadith probably is not acceptable to the supporters of tawassul. Then, use a much more knowledgeable 3rd party: just look at how the early `ulama interpreted these.

If this concept is not widely known among them, then it's clear: for the sake of practicability & reducing unnecessary risk, just abandon the practice. I can't say for certain whether it's 100% forbidden or not (nor will I claim I have the capability of doing so). But, as a rational person, in this case we know that risk of doing it will be greater than not doing it. So, it will be logical not to do it.

End of story.

Edited by rotten_coconut

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Ok, brother rotten_coconut, I will do my best. The problem I get frustrated with how time after time Shias promote ignorant people as knowledgeable scholars. It just gives us all a bad name. And in the specific example I gave, I may have been blunt, but there are no other options. He was either ignorant or a liar. A nicer way of putting it would be to say 'misleading', but that is just a form of lying. However, for the sake of making my message more acceptable, I will take your advice on board, and try to refrain from letting my annoyance and certain so-called scholars and their supporters get the better of me.

As for the beliefs of some of the early scholars at least, see the thread

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Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from Muhammad ibn Isa from Yunus from Burayd al-Ijli who has said the following:

" I once asked abu Ja'far (a) of the minimum amount of belief with which one is to be conisidered a polytheist." The narrator has said that the Imam has said, "It is he who calls a nut a pebble and a pebble a nut and considers it his religion"

al-kafi, vol.2, hadith 2858, chapter 164, hadith 1

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So he didn't say anything incorrect here. If you think about it, most Wahhabis don't really believe in intercession at all. They show utmost abhorrence towards it. Saying that they believe in intercession on Judgement Day is irrelevant, it's not the same, it's just ideological but never actualized in their world.

I don’t think enough credit has been given to you for finding this loophole in Wahabism. I am quoting you here so more people can read and think about it.

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