Was King David The First "zionist"?

[Christianlady]

Hello,

From what I have asked in another thread, I have learned that some Muslims hate Zionists, both Jewish Zionists (which I assume is the majority) and Gentile Zionists.

As a Christian lady growing up reading the Bible, one of my heroes is King David, a mighty warrior king who was also a poet and loved God with all his heart. Even though I'm a pacifist, I do have admiration and respect for certain warriors, and King David is one of them. So, as I have been learning about some Muslims' view on "Zionists", I was thinking... the word "Zion" is in the Bible.

So, I searched for it on biblegateway.com, and interestingly enough, the first place "Zion" is found is concerning King David!!!

2 Samuel 5 (NIV) - I boldened some.

"¹ All the tribes of Israel came to David at Hebron and said, “We are your own flesh and blood. ² In the past, while Saul was king over us, you were the one who led Israel on their military campaigns. And the LORD said to you, ‘You will shepherd my people Israel, and you will become their ruler.’”

³ When all the elders of Israel had come to King David at Hebron, the king made a covenant with them at Hebron before the LORD, and they anointed David king over Israel.

⁴ David was thirty years old when he became king, and he reigned forty years. ⁵ In Hebron he reigned over Judah seven years and six months, and in Jerusalem he reigned over all Israel and Judah thirty-three years.

⁶ The king and his men marched to Jerusalem to attack the Jebusites, who lived there. The Jebusites said to David, “You will not get in here; even the blind and the lame can ward you off.” They thought, “David cannot get in here.” ⁷Nevertheless, David captured the fortress of Zion—which is the City of David."

To me, this is very interesting. King David is of the tribe of Judah, one of the 12 sons of Jacob (Israel), son of Isaac, son of Abraham. Jesus is a descendant of King David.

So, do Muslims consider the first Zionist to be King David?

Zion appears in the NIV translation of the Bible 168 times. Studying them is extremely interesting, but because there are so many, I am just posting some, including the one above of 2 Samuel 5.

Another one is in a Psalm of King David:

Psalm 20 (NIV) - I boldened some.

" For the director of music. A psalm of David.

¹ May the LORD answer you when you are in distress;

may the name of the God of Jacob protect you.

² May he send you help from the sanctuary

and grant you support from Zion.

³ May he remember all your sacrifices

and accept your burnt offerings.^[b]

⁴ May he give you the desire of your heart

and make all your plans succeed.

⁵ May we shout for joy over your victory

and lift up our banners in the name of our God.

May the LORD grant all your requests.

⁶ Now this I know:

The LORD gives victory to his anointed.

He answers him from his heavenly sanctuary

with the victorious power of his right hand.

⁷ Some trust in chariots and some in horses,

but we trust in the name of the LORD our God.

⁸ They are brought to their knees and fall,

but we rise up and stand firm.

⁹ LORD, give victory to the king!

Answer us when we call!"

Psalm 69 is a Psalm of David that includes several prophecies which Christians believe are Messianic prophesies that Jesus fulfills.

Psalm 69 (NIV) - I boldened some and added some references in ( ) concerning where Jesus specifically fulfilled prophecy.

Psalm 69

Psalm 69^[a]

For the director of music. To the tune of “Lilies.” Of David.

¹ Save me, O God,

for the waters have come up to my neck.

² I sink in the miry depths,

where there is no foothold.

I have come into the deep waters;

the floods engulf me.

³ I am worn out calling for help;

my throat is parched.

My eyes fail,

looking for my God.

⁴ Those who hate me without reason

outnumber the hairs of my head;

many are my enemies without cause,

those who seek to destroy me.

I am forced to restore

what I did not steal.

⁵ You, God, know my folly;

my guilt is not hidden from you.

⁶ Lord, the LORD Almighty,

may those who hope in you

not be disgraced because of me;

God of Israel,

may those who seek you

not be put to shame because of me.

⁷ For I endure scorn for your sake,

and shame covers my face.

⁸ I am a foreigner to my own family,

a stranger to my own mother’s children;

⁹ for zeal for your house consumes me,

and the insults of those who insult you fall on me. (John 2:17)

¹⁰ When I weep and fast,

I must endure scorn;

¹¹ when I put on sackcloth,

people make sport of me.

¹² Those who sit at the gate mock me,

and I am the song of the drunkards.

¹³ But I pray to you, LORD,

in the time of your favor;

in your great love, O God,

answer me with your sure salvation.

¹⁴ Rescue me from the mire,

do not let me sink;

deliver me from those who hate me,

from the deep waters.

¹⁵ Do not let the floodwaters engulf me

or the depths swallow me up

or the pit close its mouth over me.

¹⁶ Answer me, LORD, out of the goodness of your love;

in your great mercy turn to me.

¹⁷ Do not hide your face from your servant;

answer me quickly, for I am in trouble.

¹⁸ Come near and rescue me;

deliver me because of my foes.

¹⁹ You know how I am scorned, disgraced and shamed;

all my enemies are before you.

²⁰ Scorn has broken my heart

and has left me helpless;

I looked for sympathy, but there was none,

for comforters, but I found none.

²¹ They put gall in my food

and gave me vinegar for my thirst. (Matthew 27:48)

²² May the table set before them become a snare;

may it become retribution and^[b] a trap.

²³ May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,

and their backs be bent forever.

²⁴ Pour out your wrath on them;

let your fierce anger overtake them.

²⁵ May their place be deserted;

let there be no one to dwell in their tents.

²⁶ For they persecute those you wound

and talk about the pain of those you hurt.

²⁷ Charge them with crime upon crime;

do not let them share in your salvation.

²⁸ May they be blotted out of the book of life

and not be listed with the righteous.

²⁹ But as for me, afflicted and in pain—

may your salvation, God, protect me.

³⁰ I will praise God’s name in song

and glorify him with thanksgiving.

³¹ This will please the LORD more than an ox,

more than a bull with its horns and hooves.

³² The poor will see and be glad—

you who seek God, may your hearts live!

³³ The LORD hears the needy

and does not despise his captive people.

³⁴ Let heaven and earth praise him,

the seas and all that move in them,

³⁵ for God will save Zion

and rebuild the cities of Judah.

Then people will settle there and possess it;

³⁶ the children of his servants will inherit it,

and those who love his name will dwell there."

Song of Solomon also says "Zion", referring to the daughters of Zion:

Song of Solomon 3 (NIV)

"⁷ Look! It is Solomon’s carriage,

escorted by sixty warriors,

the noblest of Israel,

⁸ all of them wearing the sword,

all experienced in battle,

each with his sword at his side,

prepared for the terrors of the night.

⁹ King Solomon made for himself the carriage;

he made it of wood from Lebanon.

¹⁰ Its posts he made of silver,

its base of gold.

Its seat was upholstered with purple,

its interior inlaid with love.

Daughters of Jerusalem, ¹¹ come out,

and look, you daughters of Zion.

Look^[a] on King Solomon wearing a crown,

the crown with which his mother crowned him

on the day of his wedding,

the day his heart rejoiced."

Christians believe that Isaiah 2 is concerning when Jesus comes back.

Isaiah 2 (NIV)

"¹ This is what Isaiah son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem:

² In the last days

the mountain of the LORD’s temple will be established

as the highest of the mountains;

it will be exalted above the hills,

and all nations will stream to it.

³ Many peoples will come and say,

“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,

to the temple of the God of Jacob.

He will teach us his ways,

so that we may walk in his paths.”

The law will go out from Zion,

the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

⁴ He will judge between the nations

and will settle disputes for many peoples.

They will beat their swords into plowshares

and their spears into pruning hooks.

Nation will not take up sword against nation,

nor will they train for war anymore.

⁵ Come, descendants of Jacob,

let us walk in the light of the LORD."

Isaiah 40 is one of the most quoted sections of the Prophet Isaiah; included is a prophecy which Christians believe John the Baptist fulfills. I boldened some and put () with the reference in the New Testament concerning John the Baptist fulfilling the prophecy:

Isaiah 40 (NIV)

"¹ Comfort, comfort my people,

says your God.

² Speak tenderly to Jerusalem,

and proclaim to her

that her hard service has been completed,

that her sin has been paid for,

that she has received from the LORD’s hand

double for all her sins.

³ A voice of one calling:

“In the wilderness prepare

the way for the LORD^[Or A voice of one calling in the wilderness: / “Prepare the way for the LORD^];

make straight in the desert (Luke 3:4)

a highway for our God.^[b]

⁴ Every valley shall be raised up,

every mountain and hill made low;

the rough ground shall become level,

the rugged places a plain.

⁵ And the glory of the LORD will be revealed,

and all people will see it together.

For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.”

⁶ A voice says, “Cry out.”

And I said, “What shall I cry?”

“All people are like grass,

and all their faithfulness is like the flowers of the field.

⁷ The grass withers and the flowers fall,

because the breath of the LORD blows on them.

Surely the people are grass.

⁸ The grass withers and the flowers fall,

but the word of our God endures forever.”

⁹ You who bring good news to Zion,

go up on a high mountain.

You who bring good news to Jerusalem,^[c]

lift up your voice with a shout,

lift it up, do not be afraid;

say to the towns of Judah,

“Here is your God!”

¹⁰ See, the Sovereign LORD comes with power,

and he rules with a mighty arm.

See, his reward is with him,

and his recompense accompanies him.

¹¹ He tends his flock like a shepherd:

He gathers the lambs in his arms

and carries them close to his heart;

he gently leads those that have young.

¹² Who has measured the waters in the hollow of his hand,

or with the breadth of his hand marked off the heavens?

Who has held the dust of the earth in a basket,

or weighed the mountains on the scales

and the hills in a balance?

¹³ Who can fathom the Spirit^[Or mind^] of the LORD,

or instruct the LORD as his counselor?

¹⁴ Whom did the LORD consult to enlighten him,

and who taught him the right way?

Who was it that taught him knowledge,

or showed him the path of understanding?

¹⁵ Surely the nations are like a drop in a bucket;

they are regarded as dust on the scales;

he weighs the islands as though they were fine dust.

¹⁶ Lebanon is not sufficient for altar fires,

nor its animals enough for burnt offerings.

¹⁷ Before him all the nations are as nothing;

they are regarded by him as worthless

and less than nothing.

¹⁸ With whom, then, will you compare God?

To what image will you liken him?

¹⁹ As for an idol, a metalworker casts it,

and a goldsmith overlays it with gold

and fashions silver chains for it.

²⁰ A person too poor to present such an offering

selects wood that will not rot;

they look for a skilled worker

to set up an idol that will not topple.

²¹ Do you not know?

Have you not heard?

Has it not been told you from the beginning?

Have you not understood since the earth was founded?

²² He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,

and its people are like grasshoppers.

He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,

and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

²³ He brings princes to naught

and reduces the rulers of this world to nothing.

²⁴ No sooner are they planted,

no sooner are they sown,

no sooner do they take root in the ground,

than he blows on them and they wither,

and a whirlwind sweeps them away like chaff.

²⁵ “To whom will you compare me?

Or who is my equal?” says the Holy One.

²⁶ Lift up your eyes and look to the heavens:

Who created all these?

He who brings out the starry host one by one

and calls forth each of them by name.

Because of his great power and mighty strength,

not one of them is missing.

²⁷ Why do you complain, Jacob?

Why do you say, Israel,

“My way is hidden from the LORD;

my cause is disregarded by my God”?

²⁸ Do you not know?

Have you not heard?

The LORD is the everlasting God,

the Creator of the ends of the earth.

He will not grow tired or weary,

and his understanding no one can fathom.

²⁹ He gives strength to the weary

and increases the power of the weak.

³⁰ Even youths grow tired and weary,

and young men stumble and fall;

³¹ but those who hope in the LORD

will renew their strength.

They will soar on wings like eagles;

they will run and not grow weary,

they will walk and not be faint.

In Isaiah 59, Isaiah speaks of the conequences of sin and also God's salvation. He mentions Zion.

Isaiah 59 (NIV)

"¹ Surely the arm of the LORD is not too short to save,

nor his ear too dull to hear.

² But your iniquities have separated

you from your God;

your sins have hidden his face from you,

so that he will not hear.

³ For your hands are stained with blood,

your fingers with guilt.

Your lips have spoken falsely,

and your tongue mutters wicked things.

⁴ No one calls for justice;

no one pleads a case with integrity.

They rely on empty arguments, they utter lies;

they conceive trouble and give birth to evil.

⁵ They hatch the eggs of vipers

and spin a spider’s web.

Whoever eats their eggs will die,

and when one is broken, an adder is hatched.

⁶ Their cobwebs are useless for clothing;

they cannot cover themselves with what they make.

Their deeds are evil deeds,

and acts of violence are in their hands.

⁷ Their feet rush into sin;

they are swift to shed innocent blood.

They pursue evil schemes;

acts of violence mark their ways.

⁸ The way of peace they do not know;

there is no justice in their paths.

They have turned them into crooked roads;

no one who walks along them will know peace.

⁹ So justice is far from us,

and righteousness does not reach us.

We look for light, but all is darkness;

for brightness, but we walk in deep shadows.

¹⁰ Like the blind we grope along the wall,

feeling our way like people without eyes.

At midday we stumble as if it were twilight;

among the strong, we are like the dead.

¹¹ We all growl like bears;

we moan mournfully like doves.

We look for justice, but find none;

for deliverance, but it is far away.

¹² For our offenses are many in your sight,

and our sins testify against us.

Our offenses are ever with us,

and we acknowledge our iniquities:

¹³ rebellion and treachery against the LORD,

turning our backs on our God,

inciting revolt and oppression,

uttering lies our hearts have conceived.

¹⁴ So justice is driven back,

and righteousness stands at a distance;

truth has stumbled in the streets,

honesty cannot enter.

¹⁵ Truth is nowhere to be found,

and whoever shuns evil becomes a prey.

The LORD looked and was displeased

that there was no justice.

¹⁶ He saw that there was no one,

he was appalled that there was no one to intervene;

so his own arm achieved salvation for him,

and his own righteousness sustained him.

¹⁷ He put on righteousness as his breastplate,

and the helmet of salvation on his head;

he put on the garments of vengeance

and wrapped himself in zeal as in a cloak.

¹⁸ According to what they have done,

so will he repay

wrath to his enemies

and retribution to his foes;

he will repay the islands their due.

¹⁹ From the west, people will fear the name of the LORD,

and from the rising of the sun, they will revere his glory.

For he will come like a pent-up flood

that the breath of the LORD drives along.^[a]

²⁰ “The Redeemer will come to Zion,

to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,”

declares the LORD.

²¹ “As for me, this is my covenant with them,” says the LORD. “My Spirit, who is on you, will not depart from you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will always be on your lips, on the lips of your children and on the lips of their descendants—from this time on and forever,” says the LORD. "

Jeremiah, a Jewish prophet who experienced the horrible destruction of Israel at the hands of the Babylonians, prophesied the following (mentioning Zion)

Jeremiah 30 (NIV)

"⁴ These are the words the LORD spoke concerning Israel and Judah: ⁵ “This is what the LORD says:

“‘Cries of fear are heard—

terror, not peace.

⁶ Ask and see:

Can a man bear children?

Then why do I see every strong man

with his hands on his stomach like a woman in labor,

every face turned deathly pale?

⁷ How awful that day will be!

No other will be like it.

It will be a time of trouble for Jacob,

but he will be saved out of it.

⁸ “‘In that day,’ declares the LORD Almighty,

‘I will break the yoke off their necks

and will tear off their bonds;

no longer will foreigners enslave them.

⁹ Instead, they will serve the LORD their God

and David their king,

whom I will raise up for them.

¹⁰ “‘So do not be afraid, Jacob my servant;

do not be dismayed, Israel,’

declares the LORD.

‘I will surely save you out of a distant place,

your descendants from the land of their exile.

Jacob will again have peace and security,

and no one will make him afraid.

¹¹ I am with you and will save you,’

declares the LORD.

‘Though I completely destroy all the nations

among which I scatter you,

I will not completely destroy you.

I will discipline you but only in due measure;

I will not let you go entirely unpunished.’

¹² “This is what the LORD says:

“‘Your wound is incurable,

your injury beyond healing.

¹³ There is no one to plead your cause,

no remedy for your sore,

no healing for you.

¹⁴ All your allies have forgotten you;

they care nothing for you.

I have struck you as an enemy would

and punished you as would the cruel,

because your guilt is so great

and your sins so many.

¹⁵ Why do you cry out over your wound,

your pain that has no cure?

Because of your great guilt and many sins

I have done these things to you.

¹⁶ “‘But all who devour you will be devoured;

all your enemies will go into exile.

Those who plunder you will be plundered;

all who make spoil of you I will despoil.

¹⁷ But I will restore you to health

and heal your wounds,’

declares the LORD,

‘because you are called an outcast,

Zion for whom no one cares.’

¹⁸ “This is what the LORD says:

“‘I will restore the fortunes of Jacob’s tents

and have compassion on his dwellings;

the city will be rebuilt on her ruins,

and the palace will stand in its proper place.

¹⁹ From them will come songs of thanksgiving

and the sound of rejoicing.

I will add to their numbers,

and they will not be decreased;

I will bring them honor,

and they will not be disdained.

²⁰ Their children will be as in days of old,

and their community will be established before me;

I will punish all who oppress them.

²¹ Their leader will be one of their own;

their ruler will arise from among them.

I will bring him near and he will come close to me—

for who is he who will devote himself

to be close to me?’

declares the LORD.

²² “‘So you will be my people,

and I will be your God.’”

Joel, another Jewish prophet, talks about Zion as well as a prophecy, which Peter, one of the 12 apostles of Jesus who walked and talked with Jesus, quotes: (I boldened some and placed in paraetheses the reference in Acts that shows the fulfillment:

Joel 2 (NIV)

"²⁸ “And afterward,

I will pour out my Spirit on all people.

Your sons and daughters will prophesy,

your old men will dream dreams,

your young men will see visions.

²⁹ Even on my servants, both men and women,

I will pour out my Spirit in those days. (Acts 2:21)

³⁰ I will show wonders in the heavens

and on the earth,

blood and fire and billows of smoke.

³¹ The sun will be turned to darkness

and the moon to blood

before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.

³² And everyone who calls

on the name of the LORD will be saved;

for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem

there will be deliverance,

as the LORD has said,

even among the survivors

whom the LORD calls.^[c]"

Zechariah 9 (NIV)

" ⁹Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion!

Shout, Daughter Jerusalem!

See, your king comes to you,

righteous and victorious,

lowly and riding on a donkey,

on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

¹⁰ I will take away the chariots from Ephraim

and the warhorses from Jerusalem,

and the battle bow will be broken.

He will proclaim peace to the nations.

His rule will extend from sea to sea

and from the River^[b] to the ends of the earth."

Jesus fulfills Zechariah 9:9-10 (NIV)

Matthew 21 (NIV)

" ¹ As they approached Jerusalem and came to Bethphage on the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two disciples, ² saying to them, “Go to the village ahead of you, and at once you will find a donkey tied there, with her colt by her. Untie them and bring them to me. ³ If anyone says anything to you, say that the Lord needs them, and he will send them right away.”

⁴ This took place to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet:

⁵ “Say to Daughter Zion,

‘See, your king comes to you,

gentle and riding on a donkey,

and on a colt, the foal of a donkey.’”^[Zech. 9:9^]

⁶ The disciples went and did as Jesus had instructed them. ⁷ They brought the donkey and the colt and placed their cloaks on them for Jesus to sit on. ⁸ A very large crowd spread their cloaks on the road, while others cut branches from the trees and spread them on the road. ⁹ The crowds that went ahead of him and those that followed shouted,

“Hosanna^[b] to the Son of David!”

“Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!”^[A Hebrew expression meaning “Save!” which became an exclamation of praise; also in verse 15^]

“Hosanna^[d] in the highest heaven!”

¹⁰ When Jesus entered Jerusalem, the whole city was stirred and asked, “Who is this?”

¹¹ The crowds answered, “This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth in Galilee.”

So, Zion is mentioned from the time of King David in the Tanakh. Is King David then, the first Zionist?

If you do not believe so, who do you think is the first Zionist?

Peace and God bless you

Edited February 9, 2012 by Christianlady

[Dawud Miqdad al-Amriki]

(salam)

I just want to put some information on this thread under your original post so that it can be referenced and noted that many Orthodox Jews are against Zionism.

http://www.jewsagain...scriptures1.pdf

"And when we ask G-d to end the exile, we are clearly saying that He has to be the one to end it, not us on our own initiative." - Hersh, Jewish brother against Zionism

Dear Emily,

You write, " EVEN IN THE CHRISTIAN FAITH THERE IS A STRONG BELIEF THAT MOSHIACH WILL NOT RETURN UNTIL THE JEWS RETURN TO ISRAEL." Your implication is that if Christians believe this, certainly Jews believe it. But here you are in error: Jews have always believed that Moshiach will come and afterwards all the Jews will return to the Holy Land. They will go there under Moshiach's leadership. See Isaiah Chapter 11 which begins with a description of Moshiach, and then says (v. 12), "And He (i.e. Hashem) will lift up a banner to the nations, and He will gather in the scattered of Israel, and the diaspora of Yehudah He will gather from the four corners of the earth." See also Rambam Melachim 11:1, "The king Moshiach will eventually arise and restore the kingship of the house of David to its former status, build the Temple and gather in the exiles of Israel."

See also the Talmud (Kesubos 111a) which states that nowadays the Jewish people is forbidden under oath to take over the Holy Land. Clearly then, taking over Eretz Yisroel is something we cannot do on our own, before Moshiach comes. We must wait for Moshiach to tell us in the name of Hashem that the exile is over and the oath is no longer in force.

You may be right that some Muslims have used (or misused) passages in the Koran to justify their opposition to the State of Israel. (As far as Sarah and Hagar, see Ramban on Bereishis 16:6.) However, no one, regardless of his beliefs, is happy when someone expells him from his house and takes his land away. The Zionists forced or frightened hundreds of thousands of Arabs off the land they took over in 1948, and many more in 1967. The Arabs may have treated Jews as second-class citizens throughout the ages, but now due to anger over the "naqba" as they call their defeat, their treatment of Jews has taken on a murderous bend. We owe this to the irresponsibility of the Zionists.

This is all from a worldly cause-and-effect approach. From a Torah approach, it is even more clear that the sins of the Zionists brought on the Arab anger which has led to the deaths of 28,000 Jews over the past 60 years. We hope and pray that all Jews will repent.

Sincerely, Reuven Waxman at Jews Against Zionism

Dear Emily,

Moshiach will bring all Jews to repent and fulfill the laws of the Torah. This is such a hard task that no false messiah will be able to accomplish it and fool the world. Whoever does this clearly has Hashem's help and is designated by Hashem as Moshiach. This is the opinion of the Rambam (Melachim 11:4). However, according to other opinions Moshiach will have to demonstrate his status by performing a miracle. This dispute comes into play when considering the story of the false messiah known as Ben Koziva (in secular literature he is known as Bar Kochba). See "Parsha Pearls", Tazria/Metzora, where this is explained in detail. I will clip it for you here:

There is a dispute between the Talmud Bavli and the Talmud Yerushalmi about the attitude of Chazal toward Ben Koziva. The Bavli (Sanhedrin 93b) says that Moshiach must be able to judge cases based on his sense of smell. When Ben Koziva claimed to be Moshiach, the Sages tested him to see if he had this miraculous ability. When they saw that he did not, they killed him. The Yerushalmi, on the other hand, says that Rabbi Akiva believed in Ben Koziva, and the Rambam says (Melachim 11:3) that not only Rabbi Akiva but all the Sages of his generation as well believed in him. The Rambam proves from this story that Moshiach will not have to perform any miracles to establish his identity as Moshiach. The Raavad, quoting the Bavli mentioned above, disagrees.

The Midrash Rabbah on Shir Hashirim 2:7 says that there were four times in history when the Jewish people forced the end and stumbled; one of them is the revolt of Ben Koziva. This Midrash, which holds that the revolt was forbidden, must agree with the Talmud Bavli that Chazal did not support Ben Koziva. But according to the Yerushalmi, which says that Rabbi Akiva did support him, it must be that there was no transgression of the oath against forcing the end. Why not?

The answer is simple: the oath prohibits forcing the end, that is, trying to bring the end of the exile on our own, without waiting for Moshiach. According to the Bavli, since Chazal had conclusively proven that Ben Koziva was not Moshiach, any effort to throw off the Roman yoke would be considered forcing the end. But the Yerushalmi holds that Moshiach need not perform any miracles, as the Rambam says. He need only be someone who learns Torah and does mitzvos and forces the entire Jewish people to follow the Torah (Rambam Melachim 11:4). Ben Koziva evidently met these criteria, so Chazal rightly assumed that he was Moshiach, and there was no prohibition on following him into battle. However, to follow a false moshiach who does not succeed in getting everyone to keep the Torah, and certainly to follow someone who does not even claim to be moshiach, is a transgression of the oaths according to all opinions.

The Satmar Rav notes (Vayoel Moshe Chapters 48 and 80) that by making teshuva of the entire Jewish people the criterion for Moshiach, the Rambam is not leaving open the door for impostors. On the contrary, to make everything dependent on miracles and wonders would be dangerous, because sometimes a false prophet is given the ability to fool people with miracles (Devarim 13:3). But to make all Jews do teshuva is such a monumental task that, in the normal way of the world, no one can do it. If someone does succeed, it is a clear sign that Hashem has sent him to be Moshiach.

When the true Moshiach comes, we don't know exactly how things will proceed. It could be that the nations and the Arabs in particular will resist him, as you say, and in that case wars will have to be waged. It could also be that his identity as Moshiach will be so undisputable that everyone will accept him peacefully.

Your other questions: yes, the Jew has been persecuted and made a scapegoat by Hitler and many others before him. But the Arab/Israeli conflict does not fit into that pattern at all. There have been many other bloody conflicts between colonizers and natives e.g. the French/Algerian conflict and many other conflicts over independence and borders. Muslims and Christians have slaughtered each other in Lebanon and the Balkans. Tribes have slaughtered each other in Africa. Here too, there is a popular movement of dissatisfaction among Palestinians because they want to control an independent state of their own. This is not anti-Semitism; this is a political conflict. If the Jews would live somewhere else the Palestinians would have nothing against them. Hitler, by contrast, marched into foreign countries and systematically murdered millions of Jews who did not threaten him politically at all. If he had been allowed to continue, he would have conquered the world and murdered all the Jews everywhere. Certainly he gave "reasons" for his madness, but the reasons had no connection with reality. For example, Einzatzgruppen commandos were indoctrinated to believe that all Jews were Bolsheviks or potential Bolsheviks.

This is a difficult subject to explain because the Zionists have invested a tremendous effort in convincing the world that their state is the only way to prevent a second Holocaust, and that the Arab violence against them is anti-Semitism. Organizations like the ADL, who purport to be fighting anti-Semitism, are actually nothing more than Zionist propaganda machines. In fact, nothing could be farther from the truth the State of Israel is actually a catalyst for violence against the Jews, and the violence against Jews today is politically motivated, not anti-Semitism.

The political dissatisfaction does not end with the Palestinians themselves; much of the Arab and Muslim world feels like Israel is a Western invasion, an American invasion, into their general territory. Thus regimes looking for support from the general Arab world united against the West, such as Nasser in the 60s and Iran today, use Israel as a rallying point. But again, don't confuse this with anti-Semitism. If instead of a Jewish government in the Holy Land there were an American government and it were the 51st state, let's say, I don't think it would be any different.

Sincerely, Reuven Waxman at Jews Against Zionism

Dear Abdul,

1_ can you tell me if the Israel represent all the jews in the world?

Of course not. First of all, let me explain that there are active anti-Zionists like our organization, whose associated groups and supporters number about 150,000 Jews worldwide, and then there are non-Zionist Orthodox Jews, which number far more. Non-Zionist Orthodox Jews includes the entire yeshiva world and its supporters, and the entire Chassidic world. They make up about 10% of the Jewish population of the state of Israel - about 500,000 - and about 10% of the Jewish population of the United States. These non-Zionist Jews do not see Zionism and the state as an ideal, they did not work to create and fight for the state. On the other hand, some of them for practical reasons (i.e. to get money for their schools) will vote in the Israeli elections. Still it is important to remember that these people still continue in the ancient ways of Judaism, they still consider themselves to be in exile, and it does not make any difference to them if they are living under the exile of the Zionist government or the exile of the U.S. government or any other government. If anything, they will say that the Zionist exile is worse, because instead of secular gentiles it's secular and anti-religious Jews.

About 75% of Israeli Jews are secular, that is, they do not subscribe to any version of Judaism. Most of them are Zionist and support the continuation of the state. However they do not even claim to be speaking in the name of Judaism since they do not believe in Judaism or the Torah. In America the percentage of secular Jews (out of those 5.2 million who acknowledge that they are of Jewish descent) is even higher.

Then you have a group in between called religious Zionists, comprising about 15% of Israelis and somewhat lower in America. These people are the real Zionists, because they claim that their Zionism is a valid form of Judaism.

2_ Israel was created in 1948 by displacing the people from their homes and making them refugees and kiiling civilians in its course. Looking at these facts is Israel a legitimate state?

Judaism does not allow Jews to displace other people, steal their land, kill them. These are all serious crimes under Torah law. Actually, however, the Torah forbids any Jewish state, even if it were created peacefully without taking anyones land. G-d in His wisdom foresaw that Zionists could always try to wiggle out of arguments that they were killing and stealing by claiming self-defense or they left on their own so He did not make the prohibition of a state contingent on that. It is prohibited no matter what. The state of Israel is not legitimate in the eyes of Jewish law.

3_ Who are these leaders of Israel, are the Zionist?

Yes, by definition that is so. Anyone who is a leader of the state of Israel is a Zionist.

4_ Is ISrael a racist state?

Racism is the belief that some people are superior to others merely because of their ancestry, often marked by some physical characteristic. The Jewish people, however, is not defined by its race but by its religion, beliefs and practices. Any human being of any race can become a Jew, follow the Torah and be considered just like any other Jew. On the other hand, a Jew who does not follow the Torah is for all intents and purposes not really a Jew, except that technically if he repents he does not have to go through any conversion process.

The Zionists, on the other hand, defines a Jew by his ancestry. A person is considered a Jew by them even if he is an atheist and keeps nothing. They give automatic citizenship to any such Jew, but not to others I would consider this racism.

Hersh Lowenthal

Edited February 9, 2012 by Dawud Miqdad al-Amriki

[Christianlady]

(salam)

I just want to put some information on this thread under your original post so that it can be referenced and noted that many Orthodox Jews are against Zionism.

http://www.jewsagain...scriptures1.pdf

"And when we ask G-d to end the exile, we are clearly saying that He has to be the one to end it, not us on our own initiative." - Hersh, Jewish brother against Zionism

Hello 'Dawud Miqdad al-Amriki',

Sure, and thanks for not insulting anybody or anything. Oh, I would like to reply to you about the prophets after Jesus thread in the Christian section, but I can't right now because I am neglecting my husband (which he doesn't appreciate) and I should get unaddicted to shiachat and learn to limit the time I spend. :(

If God wills, I hope to you reply to you in the other thread later, though I think I should not come on shiachat tomorrow...

Peace and God bless you

[La fata illa Ali]

Christian lady:

Please tell us what ur understanding of the term 'zionist' is as this discussion i find is best spoken about when ppl have a clear definition.

Furthermore, it seems strange as I cannot understand your motive in asking this question? Are u trying to suggest that zionism (which we are waiting for you to define) is believed by one of the Prophet's of God (aj) and so we muslims are against the notion and so agaisnt God's (aj) will?

Please tell us your motive behind making this thread so we can better address your issues.

Lastly quoting from psalms and bible to make a 'point' is rather silly and foolish considering you are on a muslim website, it would behoove you to show us the concept of zionism (again, waiting for u to clearly define this term) in the quran and or islam.

Thanks :)

Peace and God (aj) Bless :) :) :) :)

[Christianlady]

Christian lady:

Hello La fata illa Ali,

Please tell us what ur understanding of the term 'zionist' is as this discussion i find is best spoken about when ppl have a clear definition.

That is fair. I never really thought of the meaning of Zionist until just recently, having learned that some Muslims hate Zionists. I guess I would agree with Shia_Debater's defintion... let me see if I can find it, and I'll post it.

Here it is: "In my limited knowledge what I think of a Zionist to be is someone who wants to make Palestine/Israel a country that is for the jewish people only, " - Shia_Debater, from the first page of my thread asking why some Muslims hate Jewish people

Furthermore, it seems strange as I cannot understand your motive in asking this question? Are u trying to suggest that zionism (which we are waiting for you to define) is believed by one of the Prophet's of God (aj) and so we muslims are against the notion and so agaisnt God's (aj) will?

Well, asking questions is the best way to understand a person's motive, so I appreciate your asking instead of just assuming or attacking. Thank you. :) My objective includes looking into the history of Zion, because all earthly terms have a beginning, a history. Studying all angles of something, or both sides of the coin as an expression goes, is important for learning about it, yes?

Please tell us your motive behind making this thread so we can better address your issues.

Fair enough and very astute of you to address this point. When I created this thread, I didn't really outline my motives even to myself, but your request motivates me to do, to ask myself why I created this thread. So, below are the answers:

1. I love God very much, and know there are Muslims who love God too, as well as Christians and Jewish Orthodox people who love God. As people who share the similarity in believing God exists and God is Holy and Good and Perfect and Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient, and the list of God's attributes is limitless..., then my motive involves engaging in discussion with people who believe in God.

Because God is our Creator, who created all humans, no matter what they believe, and because people who believe in Him want to obey God (though we disagree on specifics) it is important for us to learn and study, not merely limiting ourselves to one's own "side", but rather attempting as much as possible by God's grace to understand other "sides", even though we may not agree. It is possible to understand another side and yet not agree with them.

2. It occured to me that some Muslims may not understand the history of the Jewish people, nor the meanings of words such as Israel or Zion, nor their importance.

It occured to me that some Muslims may not know that King David, who was also a prophet of God, who is of the tribe of Judah, son of Jacob (Israel), son of Isaac, son of Abraham, was King of Israel and conquered many people, and that in his conquest of Jerusalem, the term Zion became important to the descendants of Israel.

So, because I have not as yet seen concrete evidence that some Muslims who hate Zionists understand the significance of Zion, or Israel, nor attempt to understand the other "side" and instead insult these terms without citing reasons (insults do not count as valid reasons), I decided to ask the question if Muslims consider King David to be the first Zionist, to see if Muslims know the history behind the word, and when the word they seem to hate so much first appears in Jewish history. As of yet, I have not received an answer, which is interesting to me, because sometimes people hate without first researching what they are hating. Why is that?

I also asked that if Muslims do not consider King David to be the first Zionist (and the word Zion first appeared in Jewish history with King David's conquest of Jerusalem), then who do they consider to be the first Zionist? There is always a first, and if a group of people hate another group of people so much, it would be logical for them to study how that group came into being, no?

So, to sum up the points above, my motives are simply the following:

Motive 1: To engage in discussion with people who believe in God

Motive 2: To recognize the importance of the history of terms and groups of people, and to see what Muslims who have studied the history of the Jewish people (which includes the terms "Israel" - beginning with Jacob, son of Isaac, son of Abraham, and "Zion" - beginning in Jewish history with King David, descendant of Judah, son of Jacob (Israel), son of Isaac, son of Abraham, think concerning these terms, which some seem to hate so much.

Lastly quoting from psalms and bible to make a 'point' is rather silly and foolish considering you are on a muslim website,

I was under the impression that many Muslims like learning and can read the Bible and study it, even if they do not agree with it. Is that not true?

it would behoove you to show us the concept of zionism (again, waiting for u to clearly define this term) in the quran and or islam.

It would not behoove me to do so, because I am not a Muslim and am not an expert in reading the Quran. However, if a Muslim person would liek to define zionism from the Quran or Islam, I would be interested in learning from them. As a Christian, I do like learning and can study the Quran and learn from it, though I do not consider myself in the position to teach the Quran. So, if a Muslim would like to teach me what the Quran says concerning Zionism, I would appreciate it.

Thanks :)

Peace and God (aj) Bless :) :) :) :)

Thank you for not attacking or insulting, and for your thought-provoking questions/requests.

Peace and God bless you :)

Edited February 10, 2012 by Christianlady

[Greg Potemkin]

Was King David The First "zionist"?

No - Zionism is an ideology that was developed in the late 19th and 20th century, which set as a goal that Jews from throughout the world should immigrate to Palestine (with the concommitant removal of the indegenous population), either as a response to anti-semitism, or out of nationalist/racist pride. It was/is a 19th/20th/21st century phenomenon.

The fact that the word "Zion" existed in the Bible doesn't mean that one should use the term "Zionist" to describe anyone who lived at the time of the events depicted in the scriptures.

Words should mean something, and one shouldn't expand their meaning beyond what is intended.

I am, like many others, violently opposed to the modern phenomenon of Zionism, but I really don't have much of an opinion about ancient history (other than finding it interesting)..