God Is An Anger God

[hamza1892]

I was talking to an atheist about oneness of God and GOd's justice on earth on facebook then he decided to put on my facebook wall this comment "you see, doctor, god didnt kill that little girl. fate didnt butcher her and destiny didnt feed her to those dogs. if god saw what any of us did that night he didnt seem to mind. from then on i knew.....god doesnt make the world this way. we do. therefore God "almighty" doesnt exist!"

How would i respond??

thanks

[kim.tinkerbell]

............Soft determinsim........

Yes humans are the cause of suffering to an extend, however some things are designed to test us and make us be greatful for what we have....

Having said that I dont understand why a 4 year old should suffer.... They never choose, destiny came in there way and made them suffer, no one choose to suffer , predestation plays a roll in suffereing I think.....

People can say its cause and effect but it still doesnt justify suffering of innocent people...

[Dawud Miqdad al-Amriki]

Do you expect God to not allow any suffering?

So there is never any pain, nobody is ever ill or sick or dies or suffers... Then we'd be in paradise.

Everytime someone tries to kill a child, a lightning bolt strikes them down! BAM! .... BAM!............ BAM!!!!!

Eventually, people will catch on and realize there is a divine interference with killing children, they might worship children as gods.... They certainly will believe in a God, there will be no reason to disbelieve because all you have to do is raise your hand with the intention of killing a child and BAM!!!! Proof of God's existence. Preachers wouldn't be necessary, that might be a good thing.

Everytime you almost get in a car accident, you miraculously are saved... everytime you would trip you are picked up and float in the air...

This argument that they bring is the weakest and most pathetic.

[Guest Monad]

This is a lengthy subject, I just you read this. Click me

[kim.tinkerbell]

I dont expect god to stop suffereing all together, theres natrual disasters that are caused by human actions... That god doesnt have to stop.... But why should a 2 year old suffer from other peoples action....

Fair enough life is a test but some people have no choose but to suffer...... They dont have free will mor options to take them out of there mesiry......

Yes they will get reward in the afterlife inshallah, but innocent children shouldnt be suffereing..... What have they done to desrve this ..... You will thank god for what you have when you see this happening to others but it still doesnt justify why they should suffer so that other learn.....

Good people always suffer.......

[hamza1892]

Help please!!!

This is what he said about God.

That's not even close to what I'm saying. I'm saying that people who don't want to face reality say things like everything happens for a reason or it's all part of a divine plan. I'm saying everything that happens is our fault because we have a choice. Too often people blame god or whatever and that takes the blame off us as people. We are to blame because there is no god or other force that exists that can control us or influence or test us. We simply exist and deal with the consequences of our decisions

[Abu Nur]

You need help? Just leave him alone and go study some books to increase your imaan in this field. Because you cannot answer to these question by yourself..this means that In your current state you will not benefit him nor you will benefit from him, actually it only cause you some doubts.

[Pascal]

You might like to see the first two my points in this posts here - http://www.shiachat....ost__p__2254149

In philosophy this is called the problem of evil, you might want to see here - https://en.wikipedia...Problem_of_evil

This is from another thread:

For example, if you deny evolution in its totality, in a philosophical sense, you are implicating God in the direct creation of many horrible diseases. Diseases people like me later go on to cure and extinguish anyway. Why create these living, disease causing organisms in the first place? I would feel more comfortable believing they resulted from natural means rather than God inflicting them upon us.

Someone attempted to estimate the number of deaths due to "natural evil" (diseases that we are not immune to by design, ect). It has been estimated that there have been roughly 100 billion humans born on this earth. Here follows an excerpt:

" Microbial diseases are easily the leading cause of death among children. Malaria has probably killed more youngsters than any other single cause, perhaps 20 billion (Finkel 2007). Other top infectious diseases include smallpox, typhoid, plaque, scarlet fever, yellow fever, cholera, influenza, rubella, tetanus, and rabies. The situation is so acute that a microbial war is being waged upon immature humans (Barnes 2005; Demeny and McNicoll 2003). Because their immune systems are immature, infants and children are exceptionally susceptible to being infected and killed; only the elderly are comparably defenseless. In general, diseases kill their victims—who usually remain conscious during much of the symptomatic period and death process—over an extended period of time ranging from days to years, and with ex- treme levels of discomfort ranging up to the highest levels of agony." [Full article (for free for a change) here: gregspaul.webs.com/Philosophy&Theology.pdf ]

Edited February 8, 2012 by kingpomba

[Dawud Miqdad al-Amriki]

You might like to see the first two my points in this posts here - http://www.shiachat....ost__p__2254149

In philosophy this is called the problem of evil, you might want to see here - https://en.wikipedia...Problem_of_evil

This is from another thread:

For example, if you deny evolution in its totality, in a philosophical sense, you are implicating God in the direct creation of many horrible diseases. Diseases people like me later go on to cure and extinguish anyway. Why create these living, disease causing organisms in the first place? I would feel more comfortable believing they resulted from natural means rather than God inflicting them upon us.

Someone attempted to estimate the number of deaths due to "natural evil" (diseases that we are not immune to by design, ect). It has been estimated that there have been roughly 100 billion humans born on this earth. Here follows an excerpt:

" Microbial diseases are easily the leading cause of death among children. Malaria has probably killed more youngsters than any other single cause, perhaps 20 billion (Finkel 2007). Other top infectious diseases include smallpox, typhoid, plaque, scarlet fever, yellow fever, cholera, influenza, rubella, tetanus, and rabies. The situation is so acute that a microbial war is being waged upon immature humans (Barnes 2005; Demeny and McNicoll 2003). Because their immune systems are immature, infants and children are exceptionally susceptible to being infected and killed; only the elderly are comparably defenseless. In general, diseases kill their victims—who usually remain conscious during much of the symptomatic period and death process—over an extended period of time ranging from days to years, and with ex- treme levels of discomfort ranging up to the highest levels of agony." [Full article (for free for a change) here: gregspaul.webs.com/Philosophy&Theology.pdf ]

Hello kingpomba,

I agree with you that it is quite sad and causes a lot of suffering. However, let us think of an alternative which would not force the existence of a deity upon our free-thinking minds.

I propose, no diseases, no suffering, no natural disasters... You can work the science of this out in your own mind, but I'm assuming it would require a very different reality from our own in order to be successful without scientists stopping and saying "Whoa, that is proof there is a god."

So how would population be controlled? What alternative? How would people die naturally, or would they live forever until they're murdered?

If it's not a disease that kills someone then what? Science must be able to look at it under a microscope and say "Eureka! I can measure this, therefore God of the gaps has become less plausible."

If there's nothing for us to observe, and the cause is entirely beyond plausibility within a purely natural setting not appearing to require a God, then people surely would catch on and it would sort of ruin the whole purpose of--what we as Muslims refer to--"the test".

I'm curious to hear your alternative theories on a plausible reality without suffering which would make "God" more merciful or better in some way, while not forcing us against our will to admit that there is a deity running the show.

[Pascal]

I propose, no diseases, no suffering, no natural disasters... You can work the science of this out in your own mind, but I'm assuming it would require a very different reality from our own in order to be successful without scientists stopping and saying "Whoa, that is proof there is a god."

Usually the idea of the argument isn't to say there shouldn't be any suffering at all but why is there so much suffering?

We all know the story of Hagar and her son. She was desperate for water and she ran around the plain of Arafat (i think) and she kept running between these two spots as far as I'm aware. God created a spring for her and stopped her suffering from a painful and distressing death from dehydration.

Theres the problem with miracles, if God is all powerful and can save everyone, if he decided to save Hagar and he could save her, where was he in Auschwitz?

Again, i'll borrow from another thread:

"Again, let us entertain that God can violate nature. God is all-powerful, all knowing and everywhere. In theory, he could perform an infinite number of simultaneous miracles at all times and spaces, The fact that this doesn't happen allows us to conclude that God chooses times and places for miracles. This leads us to the very real and very confronting problem of why God grants some miracles and not others and why does he stand idly by when he could perform miracles? Zamzam water for example, water sprang miraculously for hagar and her infant son, who were in dire straits in the very hot desert and were near dying from dehydration. Why did God grant water to save hagar and yet allow many other people past, present and future to suffer from dehydration? Is that just? In theory he could invoke a well for everyone and if he so felt like it, indicated it was from God too.

If God can change the facts of nature and manipulate it; If he was carrying out such a stupendous and powerful act like causing the moon to rend in twain, then what was he doing when at least 20 billion children were dying from either the very diseases he created or resulted from nature and did nothing about?

If he was present around hagar and gave her a well for her and her child, where was he in Auschwitz?"

http://www.shiachat....ost__p__2322458

You're talking about natural evil, which you can excuse as population control or something.

We have human evil though, like in one of the threads i linked. A 7 year old girl on her way to school gets brutally raped and murdered after an excruciatingly long, agonizing death full of Extreme Pain. You cant say this has anything to do with judging her or rewarding her in paradise, she isnt even at an age, quranically, to be judged. God could stop this without interfering in free will. If i will to build a fire but i have no wood thats no problem with free will. Conversely, if God made the girl take a different route that day or any other imaginable way to slow her down or make it rain or anything really, she wouldn't be in that situation and yet, he stood by and just let it happen.

I don't find the free will objection convincing. Evil exists to allow free will. Most of the time, that evil is used to violate free will anyway. Your free will to murder me violates my free will to live. Your free will to steal my bit of bread violates my free will to have bread. Your will to beat me up violates my will to not be beaten up. That criminal and abhorrent free will to commit rape violates the persons will and liberty against being raped.

Think about hitler or stalin, God could of given them heart attacks if he wanted to, thats the definition of being all powerful. If he gave hitler a heart attack its not like it automatically violates everyone else's free will or the entire idea of free will, its just hitlers free will. By doing that he would of preserved the free will of the millions of people that Hitler brutally murdered. He would of interfered in hitlers free will but preserved millions more in free will.

Is the free will of one evil person worth more than the free will of millions of innocents to God? Explain to me why he did notintervene?

He intervened to save hagar but not millions of others of people, not only people but al al-kitab/people of the book. Why?

So how would population be controlled? What alternative? How would people die naturally, or would they live forever until they're murdered?

Well, God is an all powerful being, are you suggesting he is not powerful enough to create a system where our population is kept in check without inflicting horrible diseases on us and killing 20 billion children? He could do it if he so willed, being an all powerful being.

Lets not forget he is all loving and all merciful and the most compassionate as well.

Edited February 8, 2012 by kingpomba

[Guest Jebreil]

(bismillah)

To Kingpomba

There's no point in posting pics and blaming God; get to work, sell your assets, put your capital in a charity investment, and, if you can, volunteer. God gave you a chance to help; no point in the richer world sitting on its backside accusing God, only to protest when its own economy is in disarray.

And there was no need for Hitler to get a heart attack; if Germans hadn't been racist, the Nazis wouldn't have happened. Small, simple changes in each individual can do a lot to make sweeping differences in the large scheme of things. The chaos theory and evolutionary theory of History.

No man is an island entire of itself; every man

is a piece of the continent, a part of the main;

if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe

is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as

well as a manor of thy friends or of thine

own were; any man's death diminishes me,

because I am involved in mankind.

And therefore never send to know for whom

the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.

[Dawud Miqdad al-Amriki]

Usually the idea of the argument isn't to say there shouldn't be any suffering at all but why is there so much suffering?

Let's analyze your following statements and see if we can reach an answer.

We all know the story of Hagar and her son. She was desperate for water and she ran around the plain of Arafat (i think) and she kept running between these two spots as far as I'm aware. God created a spring for her and stopped her suffering from a painful and distressing death from dehydration.

Yes, and many people today have escaped death and the clutches of evil, but not everyone, including Prophets (as).

If you know the stories of our Prophets (as), you'll see that mostly all of them suffered in one way or another, some far more than others such as with the cases of Yaqub & Yusuf, Yunus, and Muhammad (peace be upon them all) to name a few.

Theres the problem with miracles, if God is all powerful and can save everyone, if he decided to save Hagar and he could save her, where was he in Auschwitz?

Again, i'll borrow from another thread:

"Again, let us entertain that God can violate nature. God is all-powerful, all knowing and everywhere. In theory, he could perform an infinite number of simultaneous miracles at all times and spaces, The fact that this doesn't happen allows us to conclude that God chooses times and places for miracles. This leads us to the very real and very confronting problem of why God grants some miracles and not others and why does he stand idly by when he could perform miracles? Zamzam water for example, water sprang miraculously for hagar and her infant son, who were in dire straits in the very hot desert and were near dying from dehydration. Why did God grant water to save hagar and yet allow many other people past, present and future to suffer from dehydration? Is that just? In theory he could invoke a well for everyone and if he so felt like it, indicated it was from God too.

If God can change the facts of nature and manipulate it; If he was carrying out such a stupendous and powerful act like causing the moon to rend in twain, then what was he doing when at least 20 billion children were dying from either the very diseases he created or resulted from nature and did nothing about?

If he was present around hagar and gave her a well for her and her child, where was he in Auschwitz?"

http://www.shiachat....ost__p__2322458

As I've proposed, why don't you offer an alternative theory to the existence of the Universe so that we can maintain our free will without being forced to believe there is a God?

You see, the question you're asking is not acknowledging the premise, which is that due to our freedom of will, suffering is inevitable. I will expound this idea further in your following quotes, as I am aware you don't find this objection convincing.

You're talking about natural evil, which you can excuse as population control or something.

We have human evil though, like in one of the threads i linked. A 7 year old girl on her way to school gets brutally raped and murdered. You cant say this has anything to do with judging her or rewarding her in paradise, she isnt even at an age, quranically, to be judged. God could stop this without interfering in free will. If i will to build a fire but i have no wood thats no problem with free will. Conversely, if God made the girl take a different route that day or any other imaginable way to slow her down or make it rain or anything really, she wouldn't be in that situation and yet, he stood by and just let it happen.

Let's remove all suffering from human hands, forgetting about natural disasters for the time being.

Let's say that this sick individual who hurt this 7 year old girl was zapped by lightning or had an instant heart-attack before perpetrating the crime.

What about the next sick individual? And the next?

Imagine if we lived in a world where no human was able to violate the life of another, how would we rationalize that as naturally plausible? Everytime a sick individual contemplates or attempts a vile act, they are struck dead. It wouldn't take a genius to deduce that this was the work of some higher power.

So what is the alternative? Non-intervention, which is what we currently have. What if God only intervened sometimes? Well who is to say he doesn't already?

I don't find the free will objection convincing. Evil exists to allow free will. Most of the time, that evil is used to violate free will anyway. Your free will to murder me violates my free will to live. Your free will to steal my bit of bread violates my free will to have bread. Your will to beat me up violates my will to not be beaten up. That criminal and abhorrent free will to commit rape violates the persons will and liberty against being raped.

Perhaps my above comments have tilted your opinion?

I find your analogies a bit off, however. I would equate them with the following counter-analogy:

On an exam, without being given the answers, the existence of multiple choice violates my free will to score 100% on the test.

But that doesn't mean I cannot score 100%, nor do your analogies mean that you cannot live, or eat bread, or avoid conflict. But due to the choices in life, we will reap the consequences.

Think about hitler or stalin, God could of given them heart attacks if he wanted to, thats the definition of being all powerful. If he gave hitler a heart attack its not like it automatically violates everyone else's free will or the entire idea of free will, its just hitlers free will. By doing that he would of preserved the free will of the millions of people that Hitler brutally murdered. He would of interfered in hitlers free will but preserved millions more in free will.

And there was no need for Hitler to get a heart attack; if Germans hadn't been racist, the Nazis wouldn't have happened. Small, simple changes in each individual can do a lot to make sweeping differences in the large scheme of things. The chaos theory and evolutionary theory of History.

[Edit: emphasizing what Jebreil wrote above me, I agree fully that if Hitler, or Stalin, or Milosevic, or any other lunatic in history, didn't have the supporters, these atrocities never could have happened. And had people believed in an All-Merciful deity which doesn't allow offensive and invasive actions, then these things never would've happened to begin with. Of course there are religious people who commit crimes, but according to (Shi'a) Islam, we are not allowed to initiate any hostility towards someone without a divine appointed figurehead leading us, because they would be following the will of God, a figurehead which we believe will return, which means we're all patient and non-violent, but we will defend ourselves (and other innocents) as is every human's right.]

I hope that I've answered this in my previous commentary, however I'll explain it once again. If God killed Hitler, what about the next Hitler? There will always be some evil, if Hitler didn't do what he did, who is to say that some other person wouldn't have come along during those years and replaced him? So God kills him as well, and continues killing everyone (mysteriously) until only good people remain.

But if God were to do this, then we would catch on and say "Wait a minute, there is a God, and we should stop and reconsider how we're living our lives."

Consider the following:

A child wants candy, but the child has not cleaned her room. The mother advises that if you clean your room, you will receive candy, if you don't you will be punished, and you are given strong evidence. (Hypothetical reality)

An other child wants to please her mother, so she cleans her room without being asked to do so because she knows it's the right thing to do, and the child isn't aware of the mother's potential reaction. (Current reality)

In this hypothetical reality, everyone would be acting, it would be fake, they would only do something for reward or lack of punishment. As with the sick individuals who harm children, they would not exist, there would be no study of such mental illness because they would all have died before exposing their evil inclinations. Similarly, the good child who wants to simply please the mother would not be given the opportunity to do so, because the mother already forced harm or benefit upon her and showed her the dire consequences of those who rebelled--with undeniable evidence.

Is the free will of one evil person worth more than the free will of millions of innocents to God? Explain to me why he did not intervene?

Yes, because free will isn't free at all if you're killed for--or otherwise supernaturally prevented from--making the wrong choice. Just as a fair examination of your knowledge is not fair at all if your classmates around you start dying everytime they fill in "B" instead of "A".

He intervened to save hagar but not millions of others of people, not only people but al al-kitab/people of the book. Why?

If we examine the life of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), we notice that people spit on him and treated him very badly, murdered all of his family members, and generally caused him extreme emotional grief and physical suffering for himself and his loved ones. Just because he was beloved to God didn't mean that he wouldn't be tested, rather his test was very difficult indeed.

Consider one who is horribly abused and dies at a young age, their suffering is great but the length of that suffering is not very long.

Consider the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who suffered from childhood (where he witnessed his parents, grandfather, uncles, and friends die) until his death (where he was poisoned and his 'friends' rebelled and killed his family), also consider inbetween his life and death, he was spit on everytime he passed by, people yelled insults at him, dead animal carcasses were thrown on him, he was lied against and abused, his family was boycotted and had to suffer starvation under the hot desert sun, his wife's entire wealth was expended just trying to allow the Muslims to survive; his daughters died at very young ages, his sons died in infancy; he was forsaken by the fellow Quraysh who trusted and treated him as friend before announcing his prophethood; he was forced to leave his home city and migrate; he witnessed his uncle's death and subsequently his liver being cut out and eaten by a vile woman (Hind); a couple of his wives played numerous distasteful pranks on him and caused drama in his home; he slept only on the floor with a very thin mat; he and his beloved daughter (Fatima) and son-in-law (Ali) and their children (Hasan and Hussain, peace be upon them all) used to starve frequently, but would give any food or drink they had to their neighbours; he had to teach the worse barbarians in the history of the world how to become honorable men, he had to act as political and religious leader, as well as father, husband, grandfather, counsellor, public advisor, treasurer, general of the army, strategist, negotiator, leader of prayers and other religious rights--all of which, especially when combined, caused the most stressful of climates, add on top of that the intense battles he had to fight to defend his people, and the slander and horrible atrocities committed against him... He really suffered more and longer than most people, dare I say anyone in history, and God did not stop all of these aforementioned things from happening, rather he showed patience and humility and thankfulness to God for the good things, such as being able to see his daughter smile.

Well, God is an all powerful being, are you suggesting he is not powerful enough to create a system where our population is kept in check without inflicting horrible diseases on us and killing 20 billion children? He could do it if he so willed, being an all powerful being.

Lets not forget he is all loving and all merciful as well.

That is a valid point, but one which I've already acknowledged, one which I've asked us to discuss alternatives to, but as (I hope) we can see from my above comments, the only alternative would result in being able to "point" at God, define the existence of God, and revoke true freedom from humanity.

For example, if "God" did prove he existed to us by way of intervening and stopping all evil and sin and bad things from happening, how would anyone die, what would be the purpose of life, and who would appreciate such an existence? It would be like playing a video game which only has 1 button, 1 outcome, 1 picture, it's very boring, repetitive, restrictive, etc...

If this sort of existence were true, you would perhaps die of a heart-attack or lightning strike for choosing to debate about God's existence, but God has given you the freedom to doubt him, and in fact has accorded you extreme freedom. It's like the father who knows that the world is dangerous outside, but rather than locking his son in a closet and tying him up, he allows him to go outside and experience life to its fullest, knowing that the consequences could be very sorrowful. If that's not true love then I don't know what is.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Dawud Miqdad al-Amriki

[Quisant]

As I've proposed, why don't you offer an alternative theory to the existence of the Universe so that we can maintain our free will without being forced to believe there is a God?

In the past God (allegedly) performed dozens of 'miracles' without worrying about humans 'free will' :

He parted the sea, turned water into blood, created magic stones, split the moon, made horses fly and ants talk etc etc.

Total indifference as to whether He was forcing us to believe or not.

You see, the question you're asking is not acknowledging the premise, which is that due to our freedom of will, suffering is inevitable. I will expound this idea further in your following quotes, as I am aware you don't find this objection convincing.

The doctrine of heaven maintains that there is a place which God has populated with free willed creatures who will never commit evil.

If there is free will in heaven where there is no evil or suffering, then it cannot be true that God lets evil exist because it is a required side-effect of free will.

Wslm.

*

[Dawud Miqdad al-Amriki]

I wrote far more than you chose to nit-pick and respond to, but here we go anyways.

In the past God (allegedly) performed dozens of 'miracles' without worrying about humans 'free will' :

He parted the sea, turned water into blood, created magic stones, split the moon, made horses fly and ants talk etc etc.

Total indifference as to whether He was forcing us to believe or not.

They lived in different times with different tests, different circumstances. Back then, people's minds were open to such things, their hearts were not yet hardened to the disbelief of God that we see today, they simply believed in different gods.

There were no cameras or anything to record such miracles, they were for specific people at specific times, they're not meant to convince humanity of God's existence, that wasn't the purpose.

The doctrine of heaven maintains that there is a place which God has populated with free willed creatures who will never commit evil.

If there is free will in heaven where there is no evil or suffering, then it cannot be true that God lets evil exist because it is a required side-effect of free will.

What doctrine of Heaven? Which book did you get that from?

We affirm the existence of Heaven and Hell without understanding what they actually are, because they're different creations from our own, so we cannot comprehend their realities.

You really didn't address any of my arguments.

[Pascal]

Let's remove all suffering from human hands, forgetting about natural disasters for the time being.

It's there, its quite clearly and objectively there, to deny it is to deny reality.

Let's say that this sick individual who hurt this 7 year old girl was zapped by lightning or had an instant heart-attack before perpetrating the crime.

What about the next sick individual? And the next?

He could of easily prevented this 7 year old girls rape and murder.

What if they just never met or were never in the same place? No one necessarily has to get zapped. What if God cured his mind? The possibilities are endless because God is all powerful , unless you're willing to deny this.

What if he made it rain so his bus was late or she left a little later from home? He could do literally anything because he is all powerful, are you saying he can't do this, if you're saying he can't do this, are you contending it is even possible as an all loving and all compassionate being to sit by and watch this girl get raped?

So what is the alternative? Non-intervention, which is what we currently have. What if God only intervened sometimes? Well who is to say he doesn't already?

God only does intervene sometimes, his aim is way off. He was quite willing to save hagar yet let millions of jews die in the gas chambers. If he can do one, who is to say he cant do the other? Its definitely possible. The question isn't if he can, its why doesnt he?

On an exam, without being given the answers, the existence of multiple choice violates my free will to score 100% on the test.

But that doesn't mean I cannot score 100%, nor do your analogies mean that you cannot live, or eat bread, or avoid conflict. But due to the choices in life, we will reap the consequences.

I dont at all see the connection. On the exam there is a pre-determined question and a pre-determined set of answers. It's already determined. Free will is theexact opposite of that.

Murdering someone quite clearly removes their free will to live. Why let evil to exist to allow free will to exist when every single time an evil is exercised it violates free will?

If God killed Hitler, what about the next Hitler?

For one he would of saved millions of innocent lives instead of just watching. What about not making hitler born even in the first place? He is all powerful and can do all things. Unless you're willing to deny Gods power and that he could do this but he chose not to.

There will always be some evil, if Hitler didn't do what he did, who is to say that some other person wouldn't have come along during those years and replaced him? So God kills him as well, and continues killing everyone (mysteriously)

Oh come on, thats just hogwash. You make it out like everyone is jumping at the fact to commit genocide and be the next hitler. Its a very, very, small subset of people. As far as i know, quranically, God knows all that will happen. He can tell which people will commit genocide even before it happens, even in the womb or stop conception happening at all. Even if he doesn't, once their intentions become clear he can.

But if God were to do this, then we would catch on and say "Wait a minute, there is a God, and we should stop and reconsider how we're living our lives."

Is it so bad God shows himself to the people instead of leaving them guessing or creating bloody wars over differing religions like the bloodshed between the hindus and muslims in india? The crusades?

Theres nothing wrong with God revealing himself. He did it in quran many times and the quran is meant to be undeniable proof of God revealing himself to us anyway. All the miracles as well. He has done it before, so its not like what you're suggesting is unknown.

In this hypothetical reality, everyone would be acting, it would be fake, they would only do something for reward or lack of punishment.

Everyone?

You can't prove that. I'm sure plenty of people will continue to do good things, just as they done before, simply because they are good. It would probably definitely cut down on the evil though, whats so wrong with that? Are you seriously against a reduction in the evil and suffering in this world?

It's like saying the only reason you don't murder is because you know the law will punish you. You don't murder because you're against it and have good morals.

If you had the intention to murder but didn't God would still know you had the intent to murder and the murder of an innocent would be prevented.

showed her the dire consequences of those who rebelled--with undeniable evidence.

Most religious systems already do that. Their adherents believe the evidence is undeniable, do you doubt the evidence of Islam for example?

Even then, it does not need to be "struck this evil guy with lighting" undeniable. He could kill them in the womb. So many pregnancies do not succeed, even then, stop conception seconds after it happens. God knows which path every individual will take, he already knows the very sick and very evil few. The Hitlers and Stalins of our world. He could of easily stopped their conception from taking place and nobody would of even noticed he was doing it.

Yes, because free will isn't free at all if you're killed for--or otherwise supernaturally prevented from--making the wrong choice. Just as a fair examination of your knowledge is not fair at all if your classmates around you start dying everytime they fill in "B" instead of "A".

You answered Yes to my question. This indicates you believe the free will of one evil person is worth more than the free will of millions of innocents.

If you don't, you're more than welcome to correct yourself.

Just because god denies hitler freewill, its not an automatic correlation he denies free will to humanity as a whole, he only denied it to hitler and a select few others. He can kill these people just after conception before they have any idea of will or any way of using it. They're just a ball of 4 cells at this point, you don't think of other single celled organisms as having will or even multicelled organisms like flies. He can even stop fertilisation from taking place.

Just because God denies one persons will it doesn't mean it automatically shuts off free will for everyone else, i dont know how you got this idea.

If God stopped hitler from comming about and saved millions, we still would of had our free will and hitler would be in the ground instead of millions of jewish children.

Consider one who is horribly abused and dies at a young age, their suffering is great but the length of that suffering is not very long.

I'm sorry...the length of suffering is not very long? Do you know anyone who has been abused as a child? I know some people that have and from the stories they tell me, i wouldn't even wish one single second of that on my worst enemy.

I find it almost digusting you say its not that bad because they didnt suffer for that long. Suffering is suffering no matter how long it occurs and for most people years do tend to be a long time.

I can see what you're getting at maybe, so, this child who isn't able of even being judged and who will automatically get into heaven....is suffering...because they'll be rewarded in heaven....for the suffering God failed to prevent? Tell me how this can come from a God thats the most merciful, just and compassionate, the absolute maximum of these traits. Its more compassionate to stop their suffering and yet he doesnt.

He really suffered more and longer than most people, dare I say anyone in history, and God did not stop all of these aforementioned things from happening, rather he showed patience and humility and thankfulness to God for the good things, such as being able to see his daughter smile.

Even if all this is true i don't think he's suffered more than almost any other person, especially in ages of history gone by. In the holocaust people lost their friends and family in barbaric ways, they had been spit on and other things like that as well.

Not sure what this adds to the argument though, that story about muhammed? Obviously i appreciate you sharing but i dont much see the relevance.

Are you saying that the people in the holocaust should appreciate a piece of candy the nazi's give them before they march off to the gas chambers...that you believe they should be happy or even thankful for such a grotesque situation that God could of delivered them from?

For example, if "God" did prove he existed to us by way of intervening and stopping all evil and sin and bad things

Again, i'm not contending there should be no suffering or evil. I said this in my opening. What i'm questioning is why is there so, so much evil? 20 billion children is no small amount. Millions of jews in the holocaust is no small amount. I can accept maybe small time murderers but genocidal dictators he could see comming and easily killed off seconds after conception, without anyone even noticing but he chose not to? That i can not accept from an all loving, all just, all compassionate and all powerful God. Unless you're willing to deny he is one of these things?

He did intervene. What about hagar? His interventions are recorded in the quran anyway. The quran is one of his interventions. It seems before these times, the world was awash with miracles. He saved two people, two! Surely he can extend his compassion to millions, in-fact to be the most compassionate he basically has to kill hitler if he can otherwise it violates this. Allah the sorta compassionate, the semi loving, the sometimes just does not have the same ring to it.

Why where there many miracles over a comparitively short time and now there are none like those that obviously proove God in times gone by?

If he saved hagar and her son, why not the jews in concentration camps?

from happening, how would anyone die, what would be the purpose of life, and who would appreciate such an existence?

Again, i'm not contending no evil or no adversity. I realise that will have adverse outcomes but that isn't my challenge, my challenge is why is there so so much evil and there is. The concentration camps for example. He could of stopped all genocides throughout history or at least most of the worst ones, which he already knew would happen, by simply stopping the conception of these people and no one would of been none the wiser.

The holocaust severly reduced the number of jewish people and the jewish population, theres no way you can argue it was anything less than major for the jews.

If this sort of existence were true, you would perhaps die of a heart-attack or lightning strike for choosing to debate about God's existence

Muhammed did this, i doubt he would of struck him down. Will he only strike down non-muslims that debate Gods existence? Thats hardly evil on the levels of mass genocide, i mean really...

Back then, people's minds were open to such things, their hearts were not yet hardened to the disbelief of God that we see today, they simply believed in different gods.

Theres no way either of us can prove this either true or false so lets throw this out. Even before the time of Muhammed in Hagar in ancient Greece you had atheists. Some people think the idea of atheism goes as far back to the 6th century BC (long before exodus and the Egyptian state we're talking about).

There were no cameras or anything to record such miracles, they were for specific people at specific times, they're not meant to convince humanity of God's existence, that wasn't the purpose.

http://quran.com/7/130-136 I'd call this pretty convincing of Gods existence...Even most translations mention the purpose was the remind the people..

Musa mentioning God brought these signs then God suddenly drowns the Pharo.... surely people knew about this http://quran.com/17/102-104

He has clearly intervened in the world before, on a large scale but this time to commit genocide:

¹³⁴They would say, whenever a plague struck them, ‘Moses, pray to your Lord for us by virtue of the promise He has made to you: if you relieve us of the plague, we will believe you and let the Children of Israel go with you,’ ¹³⁵but when We relieved them of the plague and gave them a fixed period [in which to fulfil their promise]—lo and behold!—they broke it. ¹³⁶And so, because they rejected Our signs and paid them no heed, We exacted retribution from them: We drowned them(Egyptians) in the sea ¹³⁷and We made those who had been oppressed succeed to both the east and the west of the land that We had blessed. Your Lord's good promise to the Children of Israel was fulfilled, because of their patience, and We destroyed what Pharaoh and his people were making and what they were building. Sura 7

¹⁰¹In the past, We gave Moses nine clear signs—ask the Children of Israel. When Moses came to [the Egyptians], Pharaoh said to him, ‘Moses, I think you are bewitched.’ ¹⁰²He said, ‘You know very well that only the Lord of the heavens and earth could have sent these signs as clear proof. I think that you, Pharaoh, are doomed.’¹⁰³So he wanted to wipe them off the [face of the] earth, but We drowned him and those with him. ¹⁰⁴After his death, We told the Children of Israel, ‘Live in the land, and when the promise of the Hereafter is fulfilled, We shall bring you to the assembly of all people.’ Sura 17

⁴⁷Children of Israel, remember how I blessed you and favoured you over other people. ⁴⁸Guard yourselves against a Day when no soul will stand in place of another, no intercession will be accepted for it, nor any ransom; nor will they be helped. ⁴⁹Remember when We saved you from Pharaoh's people, who subjected you to terrible torment, slaughtering your sons and sparing only your women— this was a great trial from your Lord—⁵⁰and when We parted the sea for you, so saving you and drowning Pharaoh's people right before your eyes Sura 2

He saved the jews once from genocide, why not again in the holocaust?

So, he basically drowned an entire nation(?) stole their land and 'gave' it to the jewish people. This is far from the 'light touch' you advocate.

He's quite clearly punished people for ignoring him before, like you mention above.

What about the pagan infanticide he could of intervened in but did nothing - ¹³⁷In the same way, their idols have induced many of the pagans to kill their own children,^a bringing them ruin and confusion in their faith: if God had willed otherwise they would not have done this, so [Prophet] leave them to their own devices. Sura 6

He wiped out an entire village in Sura 7 - ⁹⁰The disbelieving leaders among his people said, ‘You will certainly be losers if you follow Shu’ayb’—⁹¹an earthquake seized them: by the next morning they were lying dead in their homes;

Apparently whole generations of people: ¹³Before you people, We destroyed whole generations when they did evil—their messengers brought them clear signs but they refused to believe. This is how We repay the guilty. Sura 10

¹⁷How many generations We have destroyed since Noah! Your Lord knows and observes the sins of His servants well enough. Sura 17

⁵⁷Who could be more wrong than the person who is reminded of his Lord's messages and turns his back on them, ignoring what his hands are storing up for him [in the Hereafter]? We have put covers over their hearts, so they cannot understand the Qurʾan, and We put heaviness in their ears: although you call them to guidance [Prophet] they will never accept it.⁵⁸Your Lord is the Most Forgiving, and full of mercy: if He took them to task for the wrongs they have done, He would hasten their punishment on. They have an appointed time from which they will have no escape,⁵⁹[just like] the former communities We destroyed for doing wrong: We set an appointed time for their destruction. S18

⁷⁴We have destroyed many a generation before them who surpassed them in riches and outward glitter! S19

⁹⁸How many generations We have destroyed before them! Do you perceive a single one of them now, or hear as much as a whisper? S19

⁵⁰So they devised their evil plan, but We too made a plan of which they were unaware. ⁵¹See how their scheming ended: We destroyed them utterly, along with all their people

If he can kill entire generations at a time, something such a big intervention, surely he can do what im suggesting. If he can kill entire generations, why cant he save entire generations?

Edited February 8, 2012 by kingpomba

[Dawud Miqdad al-Amriki]

Kingpomba, essentially your responses were disappointingly lacking in any caliber.

You are repeating the same questions, which I answered, which you didn't appear to acknowledge.

1) You keep saying "God could have intervened", how much do you want God to intervene? Wouldn't you find it suspicious if no evil has ever happened in history? No rapes, no murders, no genocides? Nothing bad ever happened because God miraculously intervened every time.

2) You offered no alternative which I've requested now at least twice.

3) Yes, I know my mother suffered very greatly from child abuse, from guns to worse. So I know very well personally, not that it is relevant nor addresses any of my points. What you propose is that God killed her father and the people who hurt her by some method... What about the next woman who is abused? Her abusers die as well, therefore no woman is ever abused, therefore if someone loses their temper they die.

If someone thinks bad thoughts and contemplates a bad deed, they die. If someone would hurt a woman, they die. If someone would stand up and ask their fellow citizens to kill a mass number of people, they die. So, there is no freedom, because everyone is dead except a very few select individuals. Then God has killed everyone on the planet, whereas you are angry that God is not stopping people from dying, your alternative is that God kills everyone! Whereas the reality is that PEOPLE are doing evil to other people, and rather than stopping them, we stand by and watch!

How the hell did the Holocaust even happen? How do hundreds of thousands of citizens of Germany decide to start murdering Jews and invading neighbouring countries? You want to blame all of that on Hitler? Hitler didn't wave a magic wand and make those people do the atrocities they did. So you want God to have killed all of the Nazi soldiers miraculously, fine, then they all died, no Jews were killed.... Now the Jews carry on their lives, and when one of them wants to commit a crime, he dies... Then another one is going to molest a child and he dies... What you're proposing, as I said in the previous paragraph, is that God kills every wrong-doer... then as I said in my previous post (which you appear to have neglected), what is the freedom in not being free? Everyone would catch on and notice that God is intervening in every aspect of our lives, how are we living our lives? We're being forced to live the life God wants, not having the freedom to choose what we want, then we're just robots. And if you say we're free to do good, then how do you propose we stop evil? By God intervening?

This is just like saying "Why do I have to eat, God should sustain me... Why do I need sleep, God can recharge me without me wasting hours unconscious." You want God to do everything so that you can stop feeling bad for not helping your neighbours. How many rich people there are in the world who could easily end the poverty and suffering of millions of people, but they choose to buy second mansions, islands, and private jets in excess of what they need.

Again, i'm not contending no evil or no adversity. I realise that will have adverse outcomes but that isn't my challenge, my challenge is why is there so so much evil and there is. The concentration camps for example. He could of stopped all genocides throughout history or at least most of the worst ones, which he already knew would happen, by simply stopping the conception of these people and no one would of been none the wiser.

The holocaust severly reduced the number of jewish people and the jewish population, theres no way you can argue it was anything less than major for the jews.

Yes, it was a horrible thing that happened of course, nobody is denying that. But if God just intervened in every human affair, then we wouldn't be human, we'd be some sort of automaton.

What about all of the atrocities that have taken place in Eastern Europe and in the Middle-East? How many millions of innocent people have died? So many Arabs have been slain senselessly for years, but how many people are standing up to defend them and call for an end to it?

Rather than blame God and expect God to "hold our hands" and force good to happen, we need to take responsibility, stop being so lazy and useless, and put our efforts towards greater goals, then we would see some great benefit from it. But, that won't happen likely because most people would rather goto work, go home, sleep, do what they do, instead of helping humanity. Then, to make it even worse, they complain against God when they're not acting as part of the solution themselves.

I can see what you're getting at maybe, so, this child who isn't able of even being judged and who will automatically get into heaven....is suffering...because they'll be rewarded in heaven....for the suffering God failed to prevent? Tell me how this can come from a God thats the most merciful, just and compassionate, the absolute maximum of these traits. Its more compassionate to stop their suffering and yet he doesnt.

So what do you want everyone to miraculously live to be 1,000 years old? Or more? Essentially what you're asking for is paradise, but you're not willing to work for it and be patient and help contribute to the betterment of mankind.

We'd rather put all of our efforts and resources into military might than curing social-economic issues.

And you keep saying "God failed to prevent", no, you and I (humanity) failed to prevent, by not helping our neighbour, respecting our parents, and loving our children. If everyone helped their neighbour, respected their parents, and parents loved their children, then there would be very little (if any) problems. But people are selfish, negligent, and give little care to kinship as they should. I don't see how that's God's fault when He has given all of us the capacity to be polite and selfless.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Dawud Miqdad al-Amriki

[Dawud Miqdad al-Amriki]

Verily, We created man from a drop of mingled sperm so that We may test him; and therefore We made him hearing and seeing. We have indeed showed him the way, now he be grateful or ungrateful. (76:3)

Let us look at some of the causes of suffering...

• Racism
  
• Jealousy/Envy
  
• Pride
  
• Selfishness/Egotism
  
• Greed
  
• Lack of self-control
  
• Indifference
  
• Arrogance
  

From all of the above traits, God didn't force anyone to be that way. But people chose to be that way. i.e. God didn't make one racist, one chose to be racist, who can blame God for his hate crimes due to his own racism?

Essentially, if people didn't carry those traits with themselves, then there wouldn't be any of these crimes you mentioned, the Nazis would not have existed; the Jews would not have been killed by prejudiced lunatics; the Arabs would not be invaded and murdered for their oil and strategic location; the Eastern Europeans would not be massacred through 'ethnic cleansing'; the Africans would not be starving to death and manipulated by rich corporations; the little children would not be molested and harmed by perverts...

You see, all we need is better morality and ethics in life, we don't need God's intervention.

"Bullets don't kill people, people kill people."

Affliction is an adornment for the believer and a mark of honour for the man of intellect, because facing it directly needs steadfastness and firm-footedness, both of which confirm belief. The Holy Prophet said, 'We, the company of the prophets, are the people who have the hardest trials, then after us come the believers, then the others like them.'

Whoever tastes the food of affliction while under Allah's protection enjoys it more than he enjoys Allah's blessing. He yearns for it when it is not there, because the lights of blessing lie under the balance of affliction and trial, and the balance of affliction and trial lies under the lights of blessing. Many are delivered from affliction and then destroyed in blessing. Allah praised none of His bondsmen, from Adam up to Muhammad, until He had tested him and seen how he fulfilled the duty of worship while in affliction. Allah's marks of honour come, in fact, at the last stage, but the afflictions themselves come in the beginning.

Whoever leaves the path of affliction is ignoring the lamp of the believers, the beacon of those near to Allah, and the guide for those on the right path. There is no good in a slave who complains of a single trial preceded by thousands of blessings and followed by thousands of comforts. Whoever does not show the patience required in affliction is deprived of thankfulness in the blessings he receives. Similarly, whoever does not give the thankfulness owed for blessings is denied the patience owed in affliction. Whoever is denied both of them is an outcast.

Ayyub said in his supplication, 'O Allah, verily seventy comforts and ease did not come to me until You sent me seventy afflictions.'

And Wahb ibn Munabbih said, 'Affliction to a believer is like a bit to a horse and a halter to a camel.' Ali said, 'Steadfastness in relation to belief is like the head to the body. The head of steadfastness is afflictions but only those who act righteously understand that.'

- Lantern of the Path, Section 87 - Affliction, words of Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq (as)

Edited February 8, 2012 by Dawud Miqdad al-Amriki

[Quisant]

They lived in different times withdifferent tests, different circumstances. Back then, people's minds were open to such things, their hearts were not yet hardened to the disbelief of God that we see today, they simply believed in different gods.

There were no cameras or anything to record such miracles, they were for specific people at specific times, they're not meant to convince humanity of God's existence, that wasn't the purpose.

What do you think the purpose was?

What doctrine of Heaven? Which book did you get that from?

We affirm the existence of Heaven and Hell without understanding what they actually are, because they're different creations from our own, so we cannot comprehend their realities.

You really didn't address any of my arguments.

Both Heaven and Hell are described in the Quraan.

Do you believe people in heaven have free will?

*

[Dawud Miqdad al-Amriki]

What do you think the purpose was?

Both Heaven and Hell are described in the Quraan.

Do you believe people in heaven have free will?

*

Basically, the purpose was to unify the people around the Prophet of that age. Different miracles were for different generations.

As for paradise, I'm not aware of any authentic source explaining whether we'll have free will or not, but I presume we would have. However, logically, I believe that as the Qur'an says "On that Day there will be no injustice", and Heaven will be perfect, nobody will want to complain or have any desire to. You will be perfectly satisfied in a way that we cannot comprehend or explain in this life. Nobody will desire impure things because I don't believe any impure people will enter Paradise unless/until God wills and after they've been thoroughly purified. Hence suffering is a form of purification. But this is logic and what makes sense to me from my understanding of Qur'an and Hadith, although it isn't necessarily true. So why people in Heaven would not commit evil is because they've already been purified and tested and they willing chose to do good and succeeded in the difficult struggles of purifying the soul. People who don't purify the soul in this life will be purified by Hell. From Hadith of our Imaams (as) there are some people who will enter hell and then be removed and enter Paradise. Some people will be inbetween the two in 'Aaraf a sort of purgatory stage... There is a hadith in Kitab e Sulaym ibn Qays al Hilali describing the people and says that the majority of people are the people of 'Aaraf, they are lukewarm neither all good or evil, they will be judged accordingly, whereas the truly evil will suffer hell and the truly devoted good will enter paradise without question (due to their lack of disobedience and sin). In any case, nobody who has some sick desires is going to carry those sick desires (murder, rape, etc) into paradise, they would be stripped of that desire through punishment for their disobedience, maybe never exiting Hell, Allah knows best. I don't think about Heaven and Hell, they're irrelevant to me right now, what's relevant is my short time in this life and what I do now.

To continue this discussion, please make a new thread or PM me, this is a separate discussion.

[Quisant]

Basically, the purpose was to unify the people around the Prophet of that age. Different miracles were for different generations.

As for paradise, I'm not aware of any authentic source explaining whether we'll have free will or not, but I presume we would have. However, logically, I believe that as the Qur'an says "On that Day there will be no injustice", and Heaven will be perfect, nobody will want to complain or have any desire to. You will be perfectly satisfied in a way that we cannot comprehend or explain in this life. Nobody will desire impure things because I don't believe any impure people will enter Paradise unless/until God wills and after they've been thoroughly purified. Hence suffering is a form of purification. But this is logic and what makes sense to me from my understanding of Qur'an and Hadith, although it isn't necessarily true. So why people in Heaven would not commit evil is because they've already been purified and tested and they willing chose to do good and succeeded in the difficult struggles of purifying the soul. People who don't purify the soul in this life will be purified by Hell. From Hadith of our Imaams (as) there are some people who will enter hell and then be removed and enter Paradise. Some people will be inbetween the two in 'Aaraf a sort of purgatory stage... There is a hadith in Kitab e Sulaym ibn Qays al Hilali describing the people and says that the majority of people are the people of 'Aaraf, they are lukewarm neither all good or evil, they will be judged accordingly, whereas the truly evil will suffer hell and the truly devoted good will enter paradise without question (due to their lack of disobedience and sin). In any case, nobody who has some sick desires is going to carry those sick desires (murder, rape, etc) into paradise, they would be stripped of that desire through punishment for their disobedience, maybe never exiting Hell, Allah knows best. I don't think about Heaven and Hell, they're irrelevant to me right now, what's relevant is my short time in this life and what I do now.

To continue this discussion, please make a new thread or PM me, this is a separate discussion.

Why do you think we need to be purified and tested? Who created impurities in the first place?

If God created us with free will, then when we exercise that free will we are "acting as designed".

If we embody imperfection when we are acting as designed, then we were designed to be imperfect.

In that case, should the moral burden be placed on our shoulders?

The old Potter and His Clay conundrum swings both ways.

If the clay should not ask of the Potter; "Why have you made me thus?"

Neither should the Potter be absolved from personal responsibility for any faults or defects in the finished product coming from his hands.

(If you do not want to continue this discussion, there is no need to answer)

Wslm.

*

[Dawud Miqdad al-Amriki]

Why do you think we need to be purified and tested? Who created impurities in the first place?

Impurities are the by-product of purity, it is known as dualism.

Purification and testing is required in a creature which has freedom to do wrong and evil.

The example of what they spend in this worldly life is like that of a wind containing frost which strikes the harvest of a people who have wronged themselves and destroys it. And Allah has not wronged them, but they wrong themselves. (Qur'an chapter 3 Alee-Imran, verse 117)

If God created us with free will, then when we exercise that free will we are "acting as designed".

Correct.

If we embody imperfection when we are acting as designed, then we were designed to be imperfect.

I sort of agree, but it depends on your definitions.

I agree that we are not perfect, that only God is truly perfect.

But I believe we are perfect for what we were created for, which is to worship God. Ibaadat (worship) in Islam can take the form of a smile, or giving charity to the poor.

We don't necessarily "embody imperfection", rather we are a creation which was given intellect and the freedom to choose good or evil. God isn't forcing you to make mistakes or to do wrong.

In that case, should the moral burden be placed on our shoulders?

God isn't forcing you to make immoral choices. You haven't been created to sin, rather you were told "Okay there is the world, live in it, let's see what you do."

The old Potter and His Clay conundrum swings both ways.

If the clay should not ask of the Potter; "Why have you made me thus?"

Neither should the Potter be absolved from personal responsibility for any faults or defects in the finished product coming from his hands.

We may have physical (or in some cases mental) defects, some more than others, but that doesn't mean God is forcing to you be immoral.

It'd be great if you actually read my large post above (#13), I'm assuming you didn't fully, and if you did, we have a barrier between our understanding.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Dawud Miqdad al-Amriki

[Quisant]

Impurities are the by-product of purity, it is known as dualism.

Impurities are a product of God, it is known as creation...everything that exists has been created by God.

Purification and testing is required in a creature which has freedom to do wrong and evil.

The idea of 'testing' is impossible in the presence of an Omniscient creator.

Before creating God was precisely aware of all the consequences and actions that would result from His creating.

All our actions/decisions were included in God's creation and we are therefore slave to God’s foreknowledge.

If other decisions were logically available they would render God's knowledge wrong.

When prior knowledge does exist before the decision event, and that prior knowledge is assumed to be perfectly correct, every alternative other than the known outcome is logically unavailable.

Your POV doesn't matter because it is an illusion. God knows before you do what you will choose.

You don't have a choice. No choice at all.

I agree that we are not perfect, that only God is truly perfect.

If God is perfect, he would be a perfect creator.

If he were a perfect creator, his creations would be perfect. But his creations are not perfect.

You can't blame creations for how they are created -- they didn't create themselves -- that is the responsibility of the creator.

*

[Dawud Miqdad al-Amriki]

You've presented some of the most absurd and oft-repeated 'arguments' against the existence of God.

You've assumed my beliefs wrongly. Rather, let me show you what I believe regarding predestination and free-will from the words of my Imaams (as)

Al-Kafi Chapter 31

Chapter on Predestination, Fate and the Middle road in between

H 397, Ch. 31, h 1

Ali ibn Muhammad has narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad and Ishaq ibn Muhammad and others, in

a marfu‘ manner, who have said the following.

"Once in Kufa, after Amirul Mu’minin’s return from Siffin, a man came to him and sat with

his legs folded underneath in front of the Imam (a.s.) and said, "O Amirul Mu’minin, tell us

about our journey against the people of Sham (Syria). Was it because of Allah’s decree and

determination or not?" Amir al-Mu’minin said, "Yes, O Shaykh, every hill that you climbed

and every valley that you traversed was because of the decree and the determination of

Allah." The Shaykh then said, "Will my tiring efforts be counted in the sight of Allah, O Amir

al-Mu’minin?" The Imam said, "Be patient, O Shaykh. I swear to Allah that He will grant you

a great reward for your journey wherever you traveled, for your stay wherever you rested and

for your return when you were headed back. In none of these conditions that you went

through you were coerced or compelled."

The Shaykh then said, "How would we not be considered compelled or coerced when all of

our journey, rest and return were because if the decree and determination of Allah?" The

Imam said, "Do You think it was all due to unavoidable decree and binding determination?

Had it been so all the reward, punishment, commandments, orders and warnings from Allah

would remain invalid and meaningless. The promise and warnings would fall apart. No one

could blame the sinners and no one would praise the people of good deeds. The sinners could

have been more deserving than the people of good deeds and the latter ones could have

deserved more punishment. Such can only be the belief of the idol worshippers, the enemies

of the Beneficent and of the party of Satan and determinist of this nation (Ummah) and her

Zoarastarians.

"Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, has obligated people on the basis of their freedom and

choice and has prohibited as a warning. He rewards a great deal for very little of deeds.

Disobedience to Him is not due to His weakness or His defeat. Obedience to Him is not for

compulsion and coercion. He has not given (the power to people) in the absolute sense. He

has not created the heavens and the earth and all that is between them without a purpose. He

has not sent the messengers and the prophets to warn and promise people just to play a joke.

Such could only be the belief of the unbelievers. Woe is for the unbelievers to suffer in the

fire."

The Shaykh then recited the following lines that he compose at the spot.

You are the Imam for whose obedience we do hope for Salvation a day from the Beneficent,

and forgiveness Explain you did our issue that was vague May your Lord reward the good

with good.

H 398, Ch. 31, h 2

Al-Husayn ibn Muhammad has narrated from Mu‘alla ibn Muhammad from al-Husayn ibn

Ali al-Washsha’ from Hammad ibn ‘Uthman from abu Basir from Imam abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.),

who has said the following.

"Whoever would think that Allah orders people to commit sins he has ascribed lies to Allah

and whoever would think and say good and evil are from Allah he would have ascribed lies to

Allah. (See also Hadith No 6 below).

H 399, Ch. 31, h 3

Al-Husayn ibn Muhammad has narrated from Mu‘alla ibn Muhammad from al-Husayn ibn

Ali al-Washsha’ from abu al-Hassan al-Rida (a.s.) who has said the following.

"I asked the Imam, ‘Has Allah left all the matters to people?’" The Imam said, "Allah is by far

Exalted above such things." I then asked, "Has He compelled them to commit sins?" The

Imam (a.s.) said, "Allah’s justice and His judgement is far above such things." The Imam

further said, "Allah has said, ‘O son of Adam, I have more priority to your good deeds than

yourself and you are of more priority to your bad deeds than I. You commit sins with the

power that I have given to you."

H 400, Ch. 31, h 4

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from Isma‘il ibn Marrar from Yunus ibn ‘Abd al-

Rahman who has said that abu al-Hassan al-Rida (a.s.) said to me the following.

"O Yunus, do not say what pre-determinists say. The pre-determinists do not say what people

of paradise say nor what people of hell say or what Satan says. The people of paradise say,

"All praise is due to Allah for His guiding us. We would have never been guided without

Allah’s guiding us." The people of hell say, "Lord, our misfortune overwhelmed us and we

became lost" Satan said, "My Lord for your making me to rebel . . ."

H 401, Ch. 31, h 5

I then said, "I swear to Allah that I do not say what they say but I only say that there will be

nothing unless Allah would want, will, measure and decree." The Imam (a.s.) said, "O Yunus,

it is not that way, there will be nothing unless Allah would want, will, measure and decree."

H 402, Ch. 31, h 6

Through the above chain of narrators it is narrated from Yunus from Sa‘dan, in a marfu‘

manner, from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following.

"Allah has not granted any bounties to a person but that He holds him justifiably responsible

for it. He gives them bounties and gives them power, which justifies His holding them

responsible for their duties. He gives smaller degrees of responsibilities to those who are of

lesser degrees of capabilities. One who has received bounties from Allah He has provided

ease for him, thus, the justification is what is for him to what is against him. Then it is for him

to help the needy in optional ways. One on whom Allah has bestowed favors, He has made

him noble in his house and beautiful in his form. This is enough justification for the duty of

praising Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, on his part of the deal and that he must not

boast over the others to hold back the rights of the needy because of his respectability and beauty in his form."

[.InshAllah.]

I was talking to an atheist about oneness of God and GOd's justice on earth on facebook then he decided to put on my facebook wall this comment "you see, doctor, god didnt kill that little girl. fate didnt butcher her and destiny didnt feed her to those dogs. if god saw what any of us did that night he didnt seem to mind. from then on i knew.....god doesnt make the world this way. we do. therefore God "almighty" doesnt exist!"

How would i respond??

thanks

To quote a post from another thread:

When I see a child that is ill, or an animal in pain, I feel compassion and empathy, I am driven to act and to alleviate this pain, and thus am driven to perform morally good actions. Natural evils give us the opportunity to cultivate moral virtues like compassion and mercy, and give us extra reasons to perform good actions. In short, they give us the opportunity to be better people. For all we know these benefits of natural evils (and they are not small) outweigh the disadvantages of allowing them to occur in the long run, and providing God with a good reason to allow them to occur

[Dawud Miqdad al-Amriki]

Al-Kafi H 404, Ch. 33, h 1

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Muhammad ibn al-Husayn from abu Sha‘ba al- Mahamili from Durust ibn abu Mansur from Burayd ibn Mu‘awiya from

abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following. "People do not owe to Allah to know. It is up to Allah to make them know. Once Allah would make them know then people are responsible to accept."

Al-Kafi H 405, Ch. 33, h 2

A number of our people has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from al-Hajjal from Tha‘laba ibn Maymun from

‘Abd al-A‘la ibn ’A‘yun who has said the following. "I asked abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.), ‘If a person does not know will he be held responsible?" The Imam (a.s.) said, "No, he will not be held responsible."

Al-Kafi H 406, Ch. 33, h 3

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from ibn Faddal from Dawud ibn Farqad from abu al-Hassan Zakariyya from

abu ‘Abdallah who has said the following. "Whatever Allah has kept hidden from people they will not be held responsible for it."

[Quisant]

You've presented some of the most absurd and oft-repeated 'arguments' against the existence of God.

'Tis a pity that you don't show me in your own words what is 'most absurd' with what I said.

But, thanks for talking to me.

All the best. :)

*

[Dawud Miqdad al-Amriki]

'Tis a pity that you don't show me in your own words what is 'most absurd' with what I said.

But, thanks for talking to me.

All the best. :)

*

You're using the morality arguments, why do people suffer, and the argument that how can a perfect God create imperfect creations. Pretty much everything you've said was not well thought out philosophically and was easy to dismantle, as I exposed in all of my posts.

Then, you attempted to tell me what I believe, but due to your lack of knowledge about what I believe, you were wrong. So I showed you what I believed, and the logic of it is undeniable that you cannot argue against it. Although you can argue against strawmen, which I likewise exposed.

All the best.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Dawud Miqdad al-Amriki

[thenamelessone]

(bismillah)

(salam)

We cannot use suffering against the existence of Allah. Lets try to put the case of suffering in a different perspective that can be easily understood. Imagine for a moment if you will, A Being who created all that you see and all of us. Doesn't matter the reason for this creation in this discussion all that concerns us is this was done. So, we are imagining in some fashion a Creator, HE created everything which logic will have you conclude HE knows everything you see and know and everything you are much better than you. For sake of a visual we can relate to we will now imagine a father who has young children. A good father will spend his time teaching his children so that when they are grown they can manage life in the best of ways. Slowly but surely he teaches them, one small thing at a time, one lesson at a time until the child gains a full understanding of the lessons. These lessons change over time as the child matures. Sometimes the father punishes the child in order that the child is saved from his own thinking and mind because the child's mind does not yet have a full understanding. Sometimes the child must be deprived of things they think are good in order to become the best adults possible in the future. There is pain, there is suffering in the eyes of this child, he believes his father to be cruel, but when he is fully grown he realizes what a wonderful father he had, and how all the things he thought were pain when he was young was not pain at all, but his salvation.

It is like this with Allah, we are looking at this life from a child's perspective. and not the perspective of a mature adult who has understanding. Its the similitude of looking at your mothers embroidery when you were little, the tapestry was ugly when you were looking up at it from the bottom, but when you see it from above it is a thing beautiful.We see life in much the same way, we are seeing it from the bottom and not the top of the tapestry. Death is not bad when you see it from a different perspective, and all suffering does is teach us great lessons, they are only to our benefit. Allah allows us free will, and knows what we will choose, Allah allows suffering and loss, and knows it is the result of our free will. But Allah knows the things we do not, HE did create all of this, HE knows all things much better than we small children, and all things are to our good. Nothing bad can happen to a good man. Nothing. Suffering is not bad, death can only be a good, loss can be our freedom.

Ma'a Salaama