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Haydar Husayn

Calling On Other Than Allah In The Quran

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We apply logic,you apply qiyaas,logic is what Allah commanded by asking us again and again to meditate,qiyaas is what your demigods have commanded you so far.You won't be able to understand anything because of your flawed leadership.

And where do we say Imams(as) show miracles independent of Allah,the point is you don't understand Imamat ,so would understand nothing.

now that you have no answer to my question so you have sstarted calling sunni scholars filthy and what what, i am amazed to know that shias have unflawed leadership. ( an hiding imam this is what majlisi says) even non muslim and kuffar countries have a leader who could be contacted.

What was that "where do we say imams show miracles independent of Allah" excuse me when did i use word imam aint i was talking about prophet isa as.

As you have failed to answer to my simple request; i give something let see how you refute hazrat ali ra.

He has not appointed guards to prevent your prayers from reaching, nor is there any need for anybody to intercede on their behalf.

A part of letter from hazrat ali ra to his beloved son hazrat hasan ra, nahjul balagah letter no.31

now dont refute me, please refute your first imam lol. Best of luck.

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now that you have no answer to my question so you have sstarted calling sunni scholars filthy and what what, i am amazed to know that shias have unflawed leadership. ( an hiding imam this is what majlisi says) even non muslim and kuffar countries have a leader who could be contacted.

What was that "where do we say imams show miracles independent of Allah" excuse me when did i use word imam aint i was talking about prophet isa as.

As you have failed to answer to my simple request; i give something let see how you refute hazrat ali ra.

He has not appointed guards to prevent your prayers from reaching, nor is there any need for anybody to intercede on their behalf.

A part of letter from hazrat ali ra to his beloved son hazrat hasan ra, nahjul balagah letter no.31

now dont refute me, please refute your first imam lol. Best of luck.

May our countless lives be sacrificed on our First Imam(as) and every Imam(as),what He talks of is often interpreted in wrong sense,its translated on many places as 'mediators' .Obviously we don't mediators ,as Allah is all hearing,all we need someone much closer to Him to make a prayers on our behalf.

You talked about Hazrat Esa(as) ,that he was n't independent of Allah so is our belief for our Imams(as),this example was a proof for intercession but you are unable to understand anything with curtains over your eyes.

As for our Last Imam(as) you gave examples of Christians having visible authority,i wonder at your basic general knowledge even,'Is Prophet Esa(as) a visible authority with whom they can directly contact'?

Your posts have exposed your I.q level well,i gave you proofs which fell on deaf ears.

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May our countless lives be sacrificed on our First Imam(as) and every Imam(as),what He talks of is often interpreted in wrong sense,its translated on many places as 'mediators' .Obviously we don't mediators ,as Allah is all hearing,all we need someone much closer to Him to make a prayers on our behalf.

Hazrat ali ra says there is no need for anyone to intercede , but you say there is need. You say you can give thousand lives for him but you dont accept what he said in its pure form.

You talked about Hazrat Esa(as) ,that he was n't independent of Allah so is our belief for our Imams(as),this example was a proof for intercession but you are unable to understand anything with curtains over your eyes.

as imamat(as usool e deen) of hazrat Ali ra and his progeny (peace be upon them all) is not mentioned

in the book Allah so i dont believe he is an imam appointed by Allah rabbul izzat. Yes he was our fourth khalifah which was his destiny as per wish of Allah. (even nahjul balagah testifies his imamat was due shura of muhajir and ansar's peace be on them all)

As for our Last Imam(as) you gave examples of Christians having visible authority,i wonder at y

our basic general knowledge even,'Is Prophet Esa(as) a visible authority with whom they can directly contact'?

i think when i answered i did not say christians i said non muslims and kuffar i think(correct me if i have said).

Esa as is not hiding, because Allah says in quraan Allah took prophet esa as up Alive and Allah also says that his job was accomplished. Leader is arabic word for imam, now have your last imam finished his job?

So when i said leaders of non muslims i was saying like shemon peres , obama , manmohan singh,

if i say prophet esa is leader of christians then ill to accept they are on the true path of the prophet esa as. No they are not on the path of esa as and he is not their leader.

Your posts have exposed your I.q level well,i gave you proofs which fell on deaf ears.

thanks exposing my iq level, hahaha. Dont be hurry to runaway, my IQ level might be low, but i dont make article of faith without proof from the book of Allah.

Dont give thousand lifes for him but atleast accept whatever he said and follow this one life.

Hazrat ali ra says dont intercede and i say dont intercede but you say no its like that we can intercede. Hahaha looks my IQ level and hazrat Ali ra IQ level is same , your IQ level is more than the IQ level than both of us.

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(bismillah)

Please keep Sunni Shia discussions out of this. This is discussing the idea of Istighaatha in the context of Imami sources.

Ýí ÇãÇä Çááå

i am asking a straight question , in reply i get things like " filthy sunni scholar", "flawed leadership", "IQ level", now i m offended to reply, which diverts the topic.

Question: where did quraan says the dead or martyr or the living creation can "see" and "listen" and "know"(whats conceal in the hearts and minds) and anwer everyone's prayer (like Allah does).

please note verse should express all the concerns explicitly.

Waiting for a reply

Edited by dhiya_kalbi

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i am asking a straight question , in reply i get things like " filthy sunni scholar", "flawed leadership", "IQ level", now i m offended to reply, which diverts the topic.

Question: where did quraan says the dead or martyr or the living creation can "see" and "listen" and "know"(whats conceal in the hearts and minds) and anwer everyone's prayer (like Allah does).

please note verse should express all the concerns explicitly.

Waiting for a reply

When you can say 'oh i am not calling Ali(as) as a Imam',i have full right to say your leadership is flawed,whereas you called 'sahaba; in shura 'peace be upon them' though no sunni even call them so,but Imam Ali(as) is razi Allah unho for you.Anyways this thread is not for shia/sunni debate come to the related forum,i will happily answer your illogical objections against Imamat,inshAllah.

This is not a place for it.

btw If Esa(as)'s job was finished why would he return then?funny ideas

Edited by Kaniz e Zahra

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When you can say 'oh i am not calling Ali(as) as a Imam',i have full right to say your leadership is flawed,whereas you called 'sahaba; in shura 'peace be upon them' though no sunni even call them so,but Imam Ali(as) is razi Allah unho for you.Anyways this thread is not for shia/sunni debate come to the related forum,i will happily answer your illogical objections against Imamat,inshAllah.

This is not a place for it.

btw If Esa(as)'s job was finished why would he return then?funny ideas

btw i did not say esa job was finished, it is Allah said so. Sounds funny then laugh now

so whr u want to discuss on this forum about imamat from quran put the link ill join thr. ;)

Edited by dhiya_kalbi

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btw i did not say esa job was finished, it is Allah said so. Sounds funny then laugh now

so whr u want to discuss on this forum about imamat from quran put the link ill join thr. ;)

There is a clear sub forum written as Shia/Sunni debate on this site,take a pain of scrolling you will see it.

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i am asking a straight question , in reply i get things like " filthy sunni scholar", "flawed leadership", "IQ level", now i m offended to reply, which diverts the topic.

Question: where did quraan says the dead or martyr or the living creation can "see" and "listen" and "know"(whats conceal in the hearts and minds) and anwer everyone's prayer (like Allah does).

please note verse should express all the concerns explicitly.

Waiting for a reply

They are given rizq, but we don't really know what the entails, so Quran does not address that.

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They are given rizq, but we don't really know what the entails, so Quran does not address that.

yes quran does not address , living dead or martyr even if have powers to listen, know and respond,how can they respond to millions or trillions of people at the same time, undoubtly this is not possible with the creation.

So the moment we say we should be asking from creation than the creator, we are making those partner to Allah in his powers.

Allah nowhere said invoke my beloved's i will reply your call, instead Allah said invoke upon me ill answer.

Simple and clear verse, no logic needed .

There is a clear sub forum written as Shia/Sunni debate on this site,take a pain of scrolling you will see it.

when u replying me plz read the post very clearly before replying dont be hurry, read everyword tentimes then reply next time ok kid.

whr u want to discuss on this forum

;D

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yes quran does not address , living dead or martyr even if have powers to listen, know and respond,how can they respond to millions or trillions of people at the same time, undoubtly this is not possible with the creation.

So the moment we say we should be asking from creation than the creator, we are making those partner to Allah in his powers.

Allah nowhere said invoke my beloved's i will reply your call, instead Allah said invoke upon me ill answer.

Simple and clear verse, no logic needed .

when u replying me plz read the post very clearly before replying dont be hurry, read everyword tentimes then reply next time ok kid.

;D

Allah referred to intercession many times in Quran,now if you think He had to make a explanatory note for 'kids' like you beside everything than Prophet(saww) and His progeny was there to do so.Handling millions of people is not a big task as Izrael is also handling millions of people at the same time so whats a big deal.They are alive,that is clearly elaborated,calling to His beloveds is also proved as Yaqoob(as) got eye sight through shirt of Yousaf(as) why did n't He pray to Allah and got it back?

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All the Imams pbut were/are wali of Allah and the purpose of them is to guide/deliver/help people who sought the help from them and since they are representative of God on earth to guide/deliver/help people, how can we not approach them thinking that they poses wilayah of Allah and are authorized from God himself for mankind.

The proponents of tawassul does not equate it as horizontal authority but rather a vertical chain of approach.

Many incidents for help by Imams are there in history how can people be blind to it and negate it and consider that Imams didnt helped people who sought from them. Infact Imam Musa Kazim a.s is termed as Babul Hawaij(gate of deliverance of desires) as his one of the titles and even Hazrat Abbas has the title of Babul hawaij.

Take the incidence of Muqadas Ardabeli who went to najaf to seek the help from Imam Ali a.s on one of the matters and he was adviced to see the Imam of the time (atfs), if Imam Ali is dead how come he responded to muqadas ardabeli

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All the Imams pbut were/are wali of Allah and the purpose of them is to guide/deliver/help people who sought the help from them and since they are representative of God on earth to guide/deliver/help people, how can we not approach them thinking that they poses wilayah of Allah and are authorized from God himself for mankind.

You don't prove something by asking how it couldn't be allowed. This is nonsensical.

The proponents of tawassul does not equate it as horizontal authority but rather a vertical chain of approach.

The pagan Arabs didn't place their idols horizontal to Allah either. It's doesn't make any difference.

And they serve beside Allah what can neither harm them nor profit them, and they say: These are our intercessors with Allah. Say: Do you (presume to) inform Allah of what He knows not in the heavens and the earth? Glory be to Him, and supremely exalted is He above what they set up (with Him). [Qur'an 10:18, Shakir translation]

Now, surely, sincere obedience is due to Allah (alone) and (as for) those who take guardians besides Him, (saying), We do not serve them save that they may make us nearer to Allah, surely Allah will judge between them in that in which they differ; surely Allah does not guide him aright who is a liar, ungrateful. [Qur'an 39:3, Shakir translation]

Many incidents for help by Imams are there in history how can people be blind to it and negate it and consider that Imams didnt helped people who sought from them. Infact Imam Musa Kazim a.s is termed as Babul Hawaij(gate of deliverance of desires) as his one of the titles and even Hazrat Abbas has the title of Babul hawaij.

Who gave them these titles? Was it an Imam? If so, did he also explain what the titles meant?

Take the incidence of Muqadas Ardabeli who went to najaf to seek the help from Imam Ali a.s on one of the matters and he was adviced to see the Imam of the time (atfs), if Imam Ali is dead how come he responded to muqadas ardabeli

Ugh. Why do so many Shias try to prove things by makng references to anecdotal stories and reports of dreams? They don't prove anything, even if narrated by scholars.

Anyway, the story doesn't even make that much sense. If Imam `Ali (as) could tell someone to go and seek out Imam Mahdi (as), then why not help him directly? And how exactly would someone go about finding the Imam, who was in occultation?

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All the Imams pbut were/are wali of Allah and the purpose of them is to guide/deliver/help people who sought the help from them and since they are representative of God on earth to guide/deliver/help people, how can we not approach them thinking that they poses wilayah of Allah and are authorized from God himself for mankind.

The proponents of tawassul does not equate it as horizontal authority but rather a vertical chain of approach.

fine your current leader(imam) should be leading (a leader is the one who leads), can he come out meet the leaders of the other community and other countries eastablish his leadership on the earth take the people out their misery.

Please inform your leader in humility to help the people who r "astray". Why to even debate/worry if thr is already a leader who finish all this debatesand discussions. Finish all problems can be solved once he comes.

Many incidents for help by Imams are there in history how can people be blind to it and negate it and consider that Imams didnt helped people who sought from them. Infact Imam Musa Kazim a.s is termed as Babul Hawaij(gate of deliverance of desires) as his one of the titles and even Hazrat Abbas has the title of Babul hawaij.

Take the incidence of Muqadas Ardabeli who went to najaf to seek the help from Imam Ali a.s on one of the matters and he was adviced to see the Imam of the time (atfs), if Imam Ali is dead how come he responded to muqadas ardabeli

who is this Ardabeli , is he infallible too? May be he was decieved by satan you know if he is fallible.

You know thre was old man(satya sai) in india who claimed to be god and he did show many miracles and you wont believe thr millions of devotees of his fraud. Even they say how you negate all the miracles he has done.

Imam of the time, now this what i call a beautiful advice, where is the current imam anyways?

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You don't prove something by asking how it couldn't be allowed. This is nonsensical.

The pagan Arabs didn't place their idols horizontal to Allah either. It's doesn't make any difference.

And they serve beside Allah what can neither harm them nor profit them, and they say: These are our intercessors with Allah. Say: Do you (presume to) inform Allah of what He knows not in the heavens and the earth? Glory be to Him, and supremely exalted is He above what they set up (with Him). [Qur'an 10:18, Shakir translation]

Now, surely, sincere obedience is due to Allah (alone) and (as for) those who take guardians besides Him, (saying), We do not serve them save that they may make us nearer to Allah, surely Allah will judge between them in that in which they differ; surely Allah does not guide him aright who is a liar, ungrateful. [Qur'an 39:3, Shakir translation]

Who gave them these titles? Was it an Imam? If so, did he also explain what the titles meant?

Ugh. Why do so many Shias try to prove things by makng references to anecdotal stories and reports of dreams? They don't prove anything, even if narrated by scholars.

Anyway, the story doesn't even make that much sense. If Imam `Ali (as) could tell someone to go and seek out Imam Mahdi (as), then why not help him directly? And how exactly would someone go about finding the Imam, who was in occultation?

If pagans really took them as intercessors then why were they worshipping them?

Intercession was just an excuse for their idol worship,and as for Muqaddus Ardbeli,if Sadooq or Mufeed say something,i am not referring for Ahadees but their views as per books then they become ultimate authority in your sense but if some high ranked Alim as Ardbeli was,say something it becomes anecdote?

Imam Ali(as) referred to Imam e Zamana(as) might be because He wanted to honour him with His Ziarat,and he himself never disclosed it but his student was pursuing him,who after pleading him on the name of Imam Ali(as) got this incident out of him,believe it or not.But just by your comments such a great alim in our history can't become liar.

These were ulema who saved the texts of classical scholars,otherwise how could you know them? All of a sudden they become not so reliable?

fine your current leader(imam) should be leading (a leader is the one who leads), can he come out meet the leaders of the other community and other countries eastablish his leadership on the earth take the people out their misery.

Please inform your leader in humility to help the people who r "astray". Why to even debate/worry if thr is already a leader who finish all this debatesand discussions. Finish all problems can be solved once he comes.

who is this Ardabeli , is he infallible too? May be he was decieved by satan you know if he is fallible.

You know thre was old man(satya sai) in india who claimed to be god and he did show many miracles and you wont believe thr millions of devotees of his fraud. Even they say how you negate all the miracles he has done.

Imam of the time, now this what i call a beautiful advice, where is the current imam anyways?

You should ask that too why Allah does n't appear before people? Yes our Imam(as) will come inshAllah and His arrival and victory of truth over batil on His hands is proved from your books too.Anyways i don't want to go into detail with such a man as you are,who is saying our alim was deceived by satan,satan can't appear in form and look of any infallible.so keep your blasphemous comments with you.

It was actually umar who was always deceived by satan.You wanted to hear that truth,now happy?

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Allah referred to intercession many times in Quran,

are you sure? Show me one unambigious verse where Allah says call upon my beloved ones i will answer you prayers.

If you show me one single verse unequivocal straight forward(without adding my or your words , my or your logic to it) verse i am ready to do whatever you say , just one verse.

now if you think He had to make a explanatory note for 'kids' like you beside everything than Prophet(saww) and His progeny was there to do so.Handling millions of people is not a big task as Izrael

first of all i asked(in my previous post refer it) whose capability is equal to Allah who can listen and answer prayers, now just u said it is prophet saw and his progeny, just ask for forgiveness for you did shirk by saying that few people got capability equal to Allah.

And you are comparing prophet saw and his progeny with israel now this one is straight from horse's mouth ,

a new one ok congragulations and celebrations,lol

is also handling millions of people at the same time so whats a big deal.They are alive,that is clearly elaborated,calling to His beloveds is also proved as Yaqoob(as) got eye sight through shirt of Yousaf(as) why did n't He pray to Allah and got it back?

please present the proof, quran nowhere fulfils desire of for people who r on wrong path, if i m wrong then verse will refute me if u r wrong than it is enough to prove that just now u lied upon the quran.

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If pagans really took them as intercessors then why were they worshipping them?

Intercession was just an excuse for their idol worship,and as for Muqaddus Ardbeli,if Sadooq or Mufeed say something,i am not referring for Ahadees but their views as per books then they become ultimate authority in your sense but if some high ranked Alim as Ardbeli was,say something it becomes anecdote?

Imam Ali(as) referred to Imam e Zamana(as) might be because He wanted to honour him with His Ziarat,and he himself never disclosed it but his student was pursuing him,who after pleading him on the name of Imam Ali(as) got this incident out of him,believe it or not.But just by your comments such a great alim in our history can't become liar.

These were ulema who saved the texts of classical scholars,otherwise how could you know them? All of a sudden they become not so reliable?

You should ask that too why Allah does n't appear before people? Yes our Imam(as) will come inshAllah and His arrival and victory of truth over batil on His hands is proved from your books too.Anyways i don't want to go into detail with such a man as you are,who is saying our alim was deceived by satan,satan can't appear in form and look of any infallible.so keep your blasphemous comments with you.

It was actually umar who was always deceived by satan.You wanted to hear that truth,now happy?

first my or your alim's are not infallible. They can make mistakes and they can be deceived too.

Second no one means no one means have confirmed photo(physical,photographic) identity of prophet muhammad saw, hazrat Ali or his progeny. It is so easy too decieve anybody saying i am this or that.

I dont this believe fairytale.

Leader is the one who should be leading, whr is your leader can obama meet him or shemon peres or king of syria or president of iran meet him? Whr is he even i would like to meet him say hi how r u, where were u these many years. Every country have a leader who is reachable whr is the current leader of shias.

You know iranians should be thankful to hazrat umar ra because of him islam reached in iran, he is the man whom hazrat Ali ra also gave bayah( like he gave bayah to other two khalifas ra ajma'in) and his daughter too. :).

Anyhow you did not answered me regd that hazrat Ali ra said nahjul balaga dont use intercession to his son, but you say we should let me know whose IQ is more yours or hazrat Ali al murtaza ra.

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If pagans really took them as intercessors then why were they worshipping them?

You don't need to believe someone is equal with Allah (swt) in order to worship them. Look up the definition of worship.

Intercession was just an excuse for their idol worship

Some might say it still is...

,and as for Muqaddus Ardbeli,if Sadooq or Mufeed say something,i am not referring for Ahadees but their views as per books then they become ultimate authority in your sense but if some high ranked Alim as Ardbeli was,say something it becomes anecdote?

I never said Saduq or Mufeed were the ultimate authority. As for Ardbelli, I don't know if he is actually the source of this story, or whether it was attributed to him. Either way, you can't rely on such stories for proving aspects of `aqeedah. I would have thought that was obvious.

Anyway, it's funny how you doubt that the views of scholars, written in their books, that don't agree with you are really authentic, but are willing to accept stories like these.

Imam Ali(as) referred to Imam e Zamana(as) might be because He wanted to honour him with His Ziarat,and he himself never disclosed it but his student was pursuing him,who after pleading him on the name of Imam Ali(as) got this incident out of him,believe it or not.But just by your comments such a great alim in our history can't become liar.

These were ulema who saved the texts of classical scholars,otherwise how could you know them? All of a sudden they become not so reliable?

According to you, they don't seem to have done a very good job preserving those classical texts, since you seem to think there is a good chance the views of these scholars have been corrupted.

Anyway, what is the primary source for this story?

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You don't need to believe someone is equal with Allah (swt) in order to worship them. Look up the definition of worship.

Some might say it still is...

I never said Saduq or Mufeed were the ultimate authority. As for Ardbelli, I don't know if he is actually the source of this story, or whether it was attributed to him. Either way, you can't rely on such stories for proving aspects of `aqeedah. I would have thought that was obvious.

Anyway, it's funny how you doubt that the views of scholars, written in their books, that don't agree with you are really authentic, but are willing to accept stories like these.

According to you, they don't seem to have done a very good job preserving those classical texts, since you seem to think there is a good chance the views of these scholars have been corrupted.

Anyway, what is the primary source for this story?

I will have to look for a source,and where i said it was n't good to preserve classical works? Stop over assuming.

And who is idol worshiping still,and giving excuses be clear?

Secondly without the will of Allah no one can be an intercessor if somebody takes on their own like pagans then surely they are committing shirk by taking 'unauthorized' intercessors.Like sunni believe in khalifa of their choice whereas Allah wants one of His choice.

first my or your alim's are not infallible. They can make mistakes and they can be deceived too.

Second no one means no one means have confirmed photo(physical,photographic) identity of prophet muhammad saw, hazrat Ali or his progeny. It is so easy too decieve anybody saying i am this or that.

I dont this believe fairytale.

Leader is the one who should be leading, whr is your leader can obama meet him or shemon peres or king of syria or president of iran meet him? Whr is he even i would like to meet him say hi how r u, where were u these many years. Every country have a leader who is reachable whr is the current leader of shias.

You know iranians should be thankful to hazrat umar ra because of him islam reached in iran, he is the man whom hazrat Ali ra also gave bayah( like he gave bayah to other two khalifas ra ajma'in) and his daughter too. :).

Anyhow you did not answered me regd that hazrat Ali ra said nahjul balaga dont use intercession to his son, but you say we should let me know whose IQ is more yours or hazrat Ali al murtaza ra.

Just stop your non sense neither He gave bayah nor Daughter,in this way even i can say what was truth of umar's birth but just leave it,i don't want to impure my hands with writing his name again and again.Iran was still in darkness till it converted to Shia later on.

As for our Imam(as) if sun is behind clouds .it does n't mean it has stopped giving light,He don't need to prove His presence by meeting infidels or sunnis.Even Khizar,Esa and Ilyaas(as) don't meet laymen so would you deny their existence too.

And again stop derailing this thread its not Shia/sunni debate forum.

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Just stop your non sense neither He gave bayah nor Daughter

i am not saying this nonsense, it is their in shia books, confirmed(hadiths) by imams, how can u deny your own hadith.

,in this way even i can say what was truth of umar's birth

ohhh i dint knew that you know so much about hazrat umar ra but u dint knew he married daughter of hazrat Ali ra.

Dont tell me i am derailing the topic

but just leave it,i don't want to impure my hands with writing his name again and again.Iran was still in darkness till it converted to Shia later on.

but how can you deny the fact that he ra was the man whose favors are upon persians for bringing the light of islam to this place, u can forget but Allah wont, he will be blessed even if there is a single muslim lives in iraq and iran

did you just distuingished between islam and shiasm. ?

As for our Imam(as) if sun is behind clouds .it does n't mean it has stopped giving light,He don't need to prove His presence by meeting infidels or sunnis.Even Khizar,Esa and Ilyaas(as) don't meet laymen so would you deny their existence too.

And again stop derailing this thread its not Shia/sunni debate forum.

even if the sun is behind clouds no one can deny fact that sun is thr and its light is thr and it is guiding people. So if the sun is just behind the clouds do u call it night or day?

Wallah i am not derailing ,your belief in intercession has a strong connection with your so called current imam.

Hazrat esa as Allah confirmed that he took him alive, but when hasan al askari died people were divided because there was no living imam, why they wr fighting if they knew that he had a son. It as clear as light, he never bore a son.

Leave all this i asked regd nahjul balaga but you comfortably escaping my questions and talking irrevalant stuff.

You did not answer me straight regd proof i asked from quraan that i ask, you did not answer straight proof i presented from nahjul balaga.

See shias believe the world cant exist without an Imam, now i am asking simple question leader(imam) is the one who should leading not hiding, and he is responsible for his people and their problems, you call your current imam and ask whther it is shirk to do intercession, because hazrat Ali ra said there is no need to for intercede and you say there is need, lets get this confirmed from your current Imam (because you wont accept even from your books). What say?

Edited by dhiya_kalbi

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you know i read on some shia site a verse interpretation. I am just a warner and for every people a guide. So they rafidah says prophet saw is warner not a guide now because he is dead ok. Now what about hazrat Ali ibn abi talib ra, hey even he is not a guide because he is dead too. Ok what about hazrat hasan is he a guide? No they all are dead so your current imam is (the umayyad phobia imam, )he is your guide.

I say ok why our beloved prophet Muhammad saw can't be the guide i get an answer hey dead people can't guide so they are no more guide.

I say ok.but What about intercession. Can we pray(make dua) to them. I get answer yes . I ask how come when they are dead, i get a beautiful answer no they are not dead so we can invoke upon them

i ask are you sure prophet and 11 imams are dead or not?

Topsy turvy, hey there is lot confusion/ i would say contracdiction, come on make an appoinment with mahdi we will sit with him talk finish all the problems for once and all. :)

[Member Banned: Blasphemy of any kind towards Allah (sw), Prophet Muhammad (saww), the Ahlul-Bayt and any Prophet of Allah, shall be met with a permanent ban from this site. No warning is necessary.]

Edited by Nocturne

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^^That will always remain with you all sort of rubbish stuff you read online start believing and propagating it,which site was that? No we Shias don't believe that Prophet(saww) was not a guide.On net any nasibi like you can make a site and attribute it to us,that does n't hold credibility.

As for Bibi Kulsum(as) its a whole different topic,and we don't take anything for granted which is written in our books,unlike you people.Our ulema don't believe in that fabricated marriage and they gave very valid reasoning for that we don't need to learn from you.

Lastly i am not escaping anything but the one who uses such a language for Imam(as) is blasphemer for us,He is n't some ummayad phobia,as Ahadees of every sect are confirming it,secondly He is not dead may Allah sends His wrath on such people who call Him so.The walking death will soon reaches an end InshAllah..

Edited by Kaniz e Zahra

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Aslamalaykum,

I've got lot reading up to do on this thread but can anyone give me a quick summary of what's going on?

Tawassul of this kind is correct according to the Ahlul Bayt Sahih hadith:

الدعاء السريع الاجابة ؟ فقال له الرجل : ما هو ؟ قال قل : اللهم إني أسألك باسمك العظيم الأعظم الأجل الاكرم ، المخزون المكن ون ، النور الحق البرهان المبين ، الذي هو نورٌ مع نور ، ونورٌ من نور ، ونورٌ في نور ، ونورٌ على نور ، ونورٌ فوق كل نور ، ونورٌ يضيىَ به كل ظلمة ، ويكسر به كل شدة وكل شيطان مريد ، وكل جبار عنيد.

لا تقرُّ به أرض ، ولا تقوم به سماء ، ويأمن به كل خائف ، ويبطل به سحر كل ساحر ، وبغي كل باغ ، وحسد كل حاسد ، ويتصدع لعظمته البر والبحر ، ويستقل به الفلك حين يتكلم به الملك ، فلا يكون للموج عليه سبيل.

وهو اسمك الأعظم الأعظم الأجل الأجل ، النور الأكبر ، الذي سميت به نفسك ، واستويت به على عرشك.

وأتوجه اليك بمحمد وأهل بيته ، أسألك بك وبهم ، أن تصلي على محمد وآل محمد ، وأن تفعل بي كذا وكذا.

From Ali ibn Ibrahim from his father from Ibn Abi Umair from Muawya Ibn Ammar he said: Abu abdilleh(as) started by saying: Oh Ammar! Din't you know that a man came to Ammer Al-Momineen (as) complaining about slowness in acceptance of his Du'a so he(as) answered: how far are you from the Du'a that is quickly accepted! So the man asked : And what's that ? so ameer al-momineen said: you say: Oh Allah i ask you by your great name the greatest and the most honorable and most cherished that is treasured and hidden, the true light and the great proof, that is light with light and light inside light and light upon light and light above light and light that lights up every darkness and breaks every tribulation and every rebellious devil and every stubborn powerful being. no earth can support it and no sky can elevate it. Every anxious feels safe with it and every bad Magic becomes void by it and the tyranny of every tyrant also and the envy of every envious. sees and earths shake from its greatness and the ship can be boarded by it when the angel pronounces it so waves cannot have power over it.

It's your greatest name the greatest and most lofty.the biggest light that you named yourself with it and used it to encompass your throne.

I direct myself to you through mohamed(saww) and aal-mohamed(as). I ask you through you and them to pray upon Muhammed and aale Muhammed and do so and so for me.

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Honestly, this discussion is getting seriously interesting post after post.

It would be great if someone could summarize all the point of views presented in order to discuss each of them further. Perhaps even pitch in Sistani, Khamenai and other scholars' prescriptions on the matter. I get the impression that this is an intricate and delicate matter, worthy of our highest concerns and analytical thinking.

Thank you and may Allah reward you for it.

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Honestly, this discussion is getting seriously interesting post after post.

It would be great if someone could summarize all the point of views presented in order to discuss each of them further. Perhaps even pitch in Sistani, Khamenai and other scholars' prescriptions on the matter. I get the impression that this is an intricate and delicate matter, worthy of our highest concerns and analytical thinking.

Thank you and may Allah reward you for it.

Well none of the maraji has objection with Tawassul.You can check their sites and send them emails,they allow it all.

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Aslamalaykum,

I've got lot reading up to do on this thread but can anyone give me a quick summary of what's going on?

Tawassul of this kind is correct according to the Ahlul Bayt Sahih hadith:

الدعاء السريع الاجابة ؟ فقال له الرجل : ما هو ؟ قال قل : اللهم إني أسألك باسمك العظيم الأعظم الأجل الاكرم ، المخزون المكن ون ، النور الحق البرهان المبين ، الذي هو نورٌ مع نور ، ونورٌ من نور ، ونورٌ في نور ، ونورٌ على نور ، ونورٌ فوق كل نور ، ونورٌ يضيىَ به كل ظلمة ، ويكسر به كل شدة وكل شيطان مريد ، وكل جبار عنيد.

لا تقرُّ به أرض ، ولا تقوم به سماء ، ويأمن به كل خائف ، ويبطل به سحر كل ساحر ، وبغي كل باغ ، وحسد كل حاسد ، ويتصدع لعظمته البر والبحر ، ويستقل به الفلك حين يتكلم به الملك ، فلا يكون للموج عليه سبيل.

وهو اسمك الأعظم الأعظم الأجل الأجل ، النور الأكبر ، الذي سميت به نفسك ، واستويت به على عرشك.

وأتوجه اليك بمحمد وأهل بيته ، أسألك بك وبهم ، أن تصلي على محمد وآل محمد ، وأن تفعل بي كذا وكذا.

From Ali ibn Ibrahim from his father from Ibn Abi Umair from Muawya Ibn Ammar he said: Abu abdilleh(as) started by saying: Oh Ammar! Din't you know that a man came to Ammer Al-Momineen (as) complaining about slowness in acceptance of his Du'a so he(as) answered: how far are you from the Du'a that is quickly accepted! So the man asked : And what's that ? so ameer al-momineen said: you say: Oh Allah i ask you by your great name the greatest and the most honorable and most cherished that is treasured and hidden, the true light and the great proof, that is light with light and light inside light and light upon light and light above light and light that lights up every darkness and breaks every tribulation and every rebellious devil and every stubborn powerful being. no earth can support it and no sky can elevate it. Every anxious feels safe with it and every bad Magic becomes void by it and the tyranny of every tyrant also and the envy of every envious. sees and earths shake from its greatness and the ship can be boarded by it when the angel pronounces it so waves cannot have power over it.

It's your greatest name the greatest and most lofty.the biggest light that you named yourself with it and used it to encompass your throne.

I direct myself to you through mohamed(saww) and aal-mohamed(as). I ask you through you and them to pray upon Muhammed and aale Muhammed and do so and so for me.

Well, in this situation the person being addressed in still Allah سبحانه وتعالى, so you aren't calling on other than Him. Therefore there is no contradiction with the Qur'an, as far as I can tell.

Edited by Haydar Husayn

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Well, in this situation the person being addressed in still Allah سبحانه وتعالى, so you aren't calling on other than Him. Therefore there is no contradiction with the Qur'an, as far as I can tell.

What do you get by 'through'? if it could be direct.

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You don't prove something by asking how it couldn't be allowed. This is nonsensical.

The point was to show how it is allowed to seek from wali of Allahs for deliverance of people, what does wilaya means is what Ayatul kursi states that it deliverance of people from darkness towards light. and similarly quran states that wali is Allah, his prophet pbuh and those who pay zakat while in ruku. (all the shia and many sunni commentators have said as per traditions this verse about paying zakat in ruku is for Imam Ali, so wilaya for him is established).

before you jump on to say it meant guidance, let me tell you that every kind of zulm(darkness) is difficulty,trouble, distress be it physical, spiritual, mental needs to be resorted to God and in need if one turns towards wali of Allah and true vicegerant of God by understanding that being wali of Allah they are in proximity to God and are held with honor with Allah they can deliver us, although not independently but with the wish of Allah (as chapter of Dahr says that they never wills what Allah doesnt wish).

.

The pagan Arabs didn't place their idols horizontal to Allah either. It's doesn't make any difference.

And they serve beside Allah what can neither harm them nor profit them, and they say: These are our intercessors with Allah. Say: Do you (presume to) inform Allah of what He knows not in the heavens and the earth? Glory be to Him, and supremely exalted is He above what they set up (with Him). [Qur'an 10:18, Shakir translation]

Now, surely, sincere obedience is due to Allah (alone) and (as for) those who take guardians besides Him, (saying), We do not serve them save that they may make us nearer to Allah, surely Allah will judge between them in that in which they differ; surely Allah does not guide him aright who is a liar, ungrateful. [Qur'an 39:3, Shakir translation].

so you are equating God authorise agents with idols of pagan worship. (wahabi stuff, i should say)

Who gave them these titles? Was it an Imam? If so, did he also explain what the titles meant? .

yes, and meaning is self explanatory

Ugh. Why do so many Shias try to prove things by makng references to anecdotal stories and reports of dreams? They don't prove anything, even if narrated by scholars.

Anyway, the story doesn't even make that much sense. If Imam `Ali (as) could tell someone to go and seek out Imam Mahdi (as), then why not help him directly? And how exactly would someone go about finding the Imam, who was in occultation?

you are denying everything for nonsense as if whole sense is in you, it was the hikmat of Imam Ali a.s which he has asked him to see Imam of the time atfs. read his Bio if you want to clarify before you reject everyting. http://islamicinsights.com/religion/history/muqaddas-ardabili-part-i.html

There are many instances where Imam atfs have helped those who sought his recourse.

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After reading all the material I can now make an appraisal that we should avoid the vicinity of both extremes regarding the belief in Tawassul for a number of reasons. (I would greatly welcome and appreciate any and all corrections.)

- Tawassul is not a furoo-e-deen. Therefore it is not obligatory to practice, to put it bluntly. However, there is a correct and safe method to practice it as mentioned in the hadith in post #233 and so many identical hadiths and popular dua's and munajaats that prescribe the same method. In any case, I believe it ultimately depends on the intention in the heart and the level of faith and ma'rifah of an individual. It is only worship of Allah to bless the Prophet:

"33.56": Surely Allah and His angels bless the Prophet; O you who believe! call for (Divine) blessings on him and salute him with a (becoming) salutation.

This can only augment a supplication or prayer when mentioned and this is the reason why correct and orthodox forms of Tawssul is present in so many, almost all of our beautiful dua's. Whoever passed them down knew what they were doing because I do not believe that any man alive today can come up with equally beautiful and heart moving dua's.

- One extreme of Tawassul borders with Shirk and that happens when the intention of the heart is incorrect as a result of ghulat beliefs instilled in the mind. This is sadly significant among Pakistani and less educated Shia brothers and sisters. The ghulat beliefs from nusehris have unfortunately found their way into some of today's Shia people's hearts, personally I believe it is because we are orphaned as a community, oppressed and hunted so we welcome and accommodate any one who holds Ali (as) dear. May Allah guide us all.

- One of the most important thing perhaps yet to be fully determined is the definition of Shirk. But still, it is clear that the Shirk as explained in the Quran is something that Allah greatly dislikes and therefore it should be avoided at all costs. I remember a speech by Ahmad Deedat who mentions such a warning which is present in the Bible as well. Therefore it is something to be very careful with.

- We are also informed to exercise respect regarding the Prophet (pbuh) and the Ai'mma, both by Allah in the Quran and in ahadith, and not abiding to this rule is prescribed chastisement of fire in the Quran. Therefore we must be careful in our arguments not to break this rule. Furthermore, it would be incorrect to debate the metaphysical mechanics of dua or the concept of Imamate or of martyrs (as mentioned in the Quran -- our foremost source for this knowledge) and try to make an argument about which we do not fully know. In my eyes at least, it only weakens the credibility of the presenter. For example, in surah Ya-Sin and in other surahs we are told that (updated) information and hence awareness is shared with a Imam by Allah. It does not mention a condition where this stops so the argument that Prophets or Imams become unaware by implying that they are "decommissioned" (auzubillah) when they leave us is nothing but speculation.

I believe that dua is a spiritual thing. The door to spirituality is through knowledge and education. Ali (as) is the door to the city of knowledge, and the connection to the holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). The Imams (as) are the keepers of that knowledge and that connection and, similarly, guides or beacons or doors that lead towards the siraat-ul-mustaqeem which leads the seeker towards Allah. So there are obviously connections that lead to this path, and Ali (as) sits at the door. There are no alternate "direct routes", thats only ignorance, misguidance and death. It should be understandable why as spiritual connection, fondness, love, affinity is only natural and the strongest of physical forces. Every saint in history of Islam will always mention Ali (as) as their guide for this reason and this is mentioned in their books or their kalaam. Therefore it is necessary to learn what sort of Tawssul did Hazrat Ali (as) practice himself? Often we find the mention of Rasool Allah (pbuh) in his supplications in one way or another that have been recorded and passed down to us. But I have yet to see so I'll say that he never directly asked the Prophet (pbuh) after he left him, as much as he kept longing for his company that he missed for the rest of his time among people, and even mentioned this strong mutual love / affinity / bond / connection in his supplications before Allah. So I think this practice by the ma'soomeen (as) is the resource to learn about Tawassul and how it works and why it should be practiced or avoided and in what way shape or form it should be done.

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so you are equating God authorise agents with idols of pagan worship. (wahabi stuff, i should say)

Yawn. The old "you sound like a Wahhabi" scare tactic. Were the Imams (as) Wahhabis too, when they quoted the following verses to refute those who had exaggerated beliefs about them?

Say: Who is the Lord of the heavens and the earth?-- Say: Allah. Say: Do you take then besides Him guardians who do not control any profit or harm for themselves? Say: Are the blind and the seeing alike? Or can the darkness and the light be equal? Or have they set up with Allah associates who have created creation like His, so that what is created became confused to them? Say: Allah is the Creator of all things, and He is the One, the Supreme. [13:16]

Allah is He Who created you, then gave you sustenance, then He causes you to die, then brings you to life. Is there any of your associate-gods who does aught of it? Glory be to Him, and exalted be He above what they associate (with Him). [Qur'an 30:40]

After all, these verses were about idols, right?

yes, and meaning is self explanatory

Where is the evidence for your claim?

you are denying everything for nonsense as if whole sense is in you, it was the hikmat of Imam Ali a.s which he has asked him to see Imam of the time atfs. read his Bio if you want to clarify before you reject everyting. http://islamicinsigh...ili-part-i.html

I don't see any primary sources in that link. Instead it says "EDITOR'S NOTE: These articles are adaptations of lectures delivered by Maulana Sadiq Hasan in Karachi, Pakistan, during the 1980s on the lives of the great scholars of Islam."

Do you just believe anything you read that agrees with your beliefs?

There are many instances where Imam atfs have helped those who sought his recourse.

There may be many stories, but I doubt there is much in terms of hard evidence.

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You always quote those verses,which were refuting pagans's gods,to use against Tawassul.

If Imams(as) used them, it was only against those who take them as creators, sustainer.

I always use them, because the Imams (as) used them about themselves, refuting the claim that these verses can only be applied to idols and false gods.

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Yawn. The old "you sound like a Wahhabi" scare tactic. Were the Imams (as) Wahhabis too, when they quoted the following verses to refute those who had exaggerated beliefs about them?

There is no pleasure for me in scaring you, it was just to highlight that you are presenting the same arguement as wahabi does without understanding the full context, as they are suffering from literalist syndrome and looks the same with you.

Say: Who is the Lord of the heavens and the earth?-- Say: Allah. Say: Do you take then besides Him guardians who do not control any profit or harm for themselves? Say: Are the blind and the seeing alike? Or can the darkness and the light be equal? Or have they set up with Allah associates who have created creation like His, so that what is created became confused to them? Say: Allah is the Creator of all things, and He is the One, the Supreme. [13:16]

Allah is He Who created you, then gave you sustenance, then He causes you to die, then brings you to life. Is there any of your associate-gods who does aught of it? Glory be to Him, and exalted be He above what they associate (with Him). [Qur'an 30:40]

After all, these verses were about idols, right?

you qouted different verse earlier and the reposnse was for those verses, you qouted below verse which are for idols or self proclaimed/chosen intercessors but not for God authroized agents,

And they serve beside Allah what can neither harm them nor profit them, and they say: These are our intercessors with Allah.

and here is the verse which says the permitted intercession

[shakir 10:3] Surely your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods, and He is firm in power, regulating the affair, there is no intercessor except aher His permission; this is Allah, your Lord, therefore serve Him; will you not then mind?

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 10:3]

It is mentioned in the above verse that with His permission intercession is allowed, so the Authorized people can be appraoched not the self chosen ones. and Imams are the chosen ones.

and I wonder what made you to ommit the first part of my reply where I talke on wilayah.

Edited by sadiqwaljee

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