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Haydar Husayn

Calling On Other Than Allah In The Quran

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Salamalaikum

Is bismillah = Allah azwj?

Muhammad b. al Qasim al Jarjani al Mufassir - may Allah be pleased with him -narrated to us; he said: Abu Ya`qub Yusuf b. Muhammad b. Ziyad and Abul Hasan `Ali b. Muhammad b. Sayyaar narrated to us, and these two were from the Imami Shi`i, and they from their fathers, from al Hasan b. `Ali b. Muhammad (al-Askari) [a] about the saying of Allah, Mighty and Exalted,: Bismillah ar-Rahman ar-Raheem. So he [a] said: “Allah is He towards whom are placed the desires and distresses of all creation. And when all hopes are severed from everyone apart from Him, and all provisions are cut off from all besides Him, you say: Bismillah. That is, I seek help in all my affairs from Allah, whom no one befits worship but Him, the One who helps when His help is sought, and the One who responds when called upon.

Here is a hadees from many ahadees on this issue that Allah azwj is not a ism but other than ism

My father - Allah have mercy on him -said: Ahmad b. Idrees narrated to him, from Husayn b. `Abdullah, from Muhammad b. `Abdullah and Musa b. `Umar and Hasan b. `Ali b. Abi `Uthman, from Ibn Sinan who said:

I asked Abul Hasan ar-Rida [a] about ism (name) - what is it? He [a] replied: [it is] an attribute of the attributed.

By your logic you all should sit and say Allah Allah rather than what is other than Him and introduces Him which is bismillah and bismillah is tauheed which is other than Him. And how hard u may try but without calling that which He chose to be called you haven't really called Allah azwj but something of ur own accord.

Ya bimillah Madad

Edited by siraatoaliyinhaqqun

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How does what he said imply Allah has weak powers?

Allah obviously have great powers but where he has restricted Allah's power is a much greater problem.

Because even drones can listen from miles away watch over enemy, and in next few years using satellites tracking every person through satellites and hearing them will be possible.

Dajjal will do thing which no one can even think of meaning he will be even more powerful than Americans currently are.

I am simply saying that Allah is much highier than our last limitation of thinking.

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I can not simply worship someone who is too weak to give such powers to whome he wills.

You people are welcome to worship such being but my lord is much greater than my imagination and these powers are not even start of my imaginations.

How can I worship such lord who is even smaller than my imaginations.

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I can not simply worship someone who is too weak to give such powers to whome he wills.

You people are welcome to worship such being but my lord is much greater than my imagination and these powers are not even start of my imaginations.

How can I worship such lord who is even smaller than my imaginations.

Can you tell me why it isn't possible to believe that Allah (swt) has the power to give such powers if He wants, but that He has decided not to give those powers to anyone? You can't believe something without proof just because it is possible.

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Can you tell me why it isn't possible to believe that Allah (swt) has the power to give such powers if He wants, but that He has decided not to give those powers to anyone? You can't believe something without proof just because it is possible.

If you really believe He can confer His powers to whoever He wants then why don't you simple believe He can give powers of Tawassul as well,instead of posing question to someone else ask it to your own self.

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Can you tell me why it isn't possible to believe that Allah (swt) has the power to give such powers if He wants, but that He has decided not to give those powers to anyone? You can't believe something without proof just because it is possible.

Because Allah will always favour those who are close to him.

My point was not about intercession but about silly thinking of people who think that these powers are only attributed to Allah and therefore he has no power to give it to anyone else. On other hand Allah has so much power That he can give every person in this world these powers. At least it is just a start of my imagination about Allah not an end.

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If you really believe He can confer His powers to whoever He wants then why don't you simple believe He can give powers of Tawassul as well,instead of posing question to someone else ask it to your own self.

I never said that Allah (swt) couldn't do it if He so wished. I just don't believe He has done so, based on the lack of evidence, and the clear proof from the Qur'an that we are not to call on anyone other than Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì.

Because Allah will always favour those who are close to him.

Sure, but why should that mean that He needs to give them the power to hear anything from anywhere? There are other ways of favouring people. And why would Allah give powers that are likely to lead people into shirk?

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Can you tell me why it isn't possible to believe that Allah (swt) has the power to give such powers if He wants, but that He has decided not to give those powers to anyone? You can't believe something without proof just because it is possible.

I have to add one more thing. We don't and can't believe in Allah based on proof alone. Risalat has no clear cut proof, Imamat has no clear cut proof. Logic and reasons point to some direction but no one ever have reached a destination but still we believe. Than why do you demand proof here when it is an issue of belief.

Everyday we ask help from people in different shapes. What will happen if I believe in Allah's favours toward his close people. Will Allah punish me for this? Because I believe in Allah's greatness will he punish me for this reason? Where is his justice?

Edited by fightingsoul001

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I have to add one more thing. We don't and can't believe in Allah based on proof. Risalat has no clear cut proof, Imamat has no clear cut proof. Logic and reasons point to some direction but no one ever have reached a destination. Than why do you demand proof here when it is an issue of belief.

There is a difference between not having proof beyond all doubt, and having almost no proof at all.

Everyday we ask help from people what will happen if I believe in Allah's favours toward his close people. Will Allah punish me for this? Because I believe in Allah's greatness will he punish me for this reason?

He might punish you because He tells you in His book not to do it. Isn't that enough? Read the ayats I quoted again. They are telling you not to call on other than Allah, and to only rely on Allah.

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I can not simply worship someone who is too weak to give such powers to whome he wills.

You people are welcome to worship such being but my lord is much greater than my imagination and these powers are not even start of my imaginations.

How can I worship such lord who is even smaller than my imaginations.

That has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever read on this forum. Please, repent of what you have said since you are bordering on kufr here. How would you respond to a Christian if they said "I can not simply worship someone who is too weak to have a son."

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There is a difference between not having proof beyond all doubt, and having almost no proof at all.

He might punish you because He tells you in His book not to do it. Isn't that enough? Read the ayats I quoted again. They are telling you not to call on other than Allah, and to only rely on Allah.

Someone else also told you that you can not live on this planet for even one day with out help of your mother. Can you tell me what do you take out of that.

Does this mean we reject Quran every second because most of our work on this planet is through helping eachother.

That has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever read on this forum. Please, repent of what you have said since you are bordering on kufr here. How would you respond to a Christian if they said "I can not simply worship someone who is too weak to have a son."

What are you talking about? Can we limit his powers?

I can not repent for what I believe in.

About christians. Associating someone else to Allah is actually limiting his powers to extreme levels.

Edited by fightingsoul001

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Someone else also told you that you can not live on this planet for even one day with out help of your mother. Can you tell me what do you take out of that.

Does this mean we reject Quran every second because most of our work on this planet is through helping eachother.

Ok, so tell me what you think all those verses mean then?

The type of help you ask for from your mother isn't the same type of help as you ask from Allah. However, the type of help people ask from Imam Ali (as) is exactly the same type of help that is asked from Allah. This is the difference. And the same goes for calling on your mother and calling on Imam Ali (as).

What are you talking about? Can we limit his powers?

I can not repent for what I believe in.

This is exactly what Christians say. They ask us if Allah isn't powerful enough to take human form, like they believe He did with Jesus (as).

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Ok, so tell me what you think all those verses mean then?

The type of help you ask for from your mother isn't the same type of help as you ask from Allah. However, the type of help people ask from Imam Ali (as) is exactly the same type of help that is asked from Allah. This is the difference. And the same goes for calling on your mother and calling on Imam Ali (as).

Caling Ahlebait(as) is meant to call Allah,Their help is His help indeed,as Allah says to His Prophet(saww) in Quran that ''you have n't thrown these stones,but I have'',He call their action His action,they act on His behalf,we don't call anyone besides Allah,but those authorised by Him. Edited by Kaniz e Zahra

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Caling Ahlebait(as) is meant to call Allah,Their help is His help indeed,as Allah says to His Prophet(saww) in Quran that ''you have n't thrown these stones,but I have'',He call their action His action,they act on His behalf,we don't call anyone besides Allah,but those authorised by Him.

Allah doesn't say in the Qur'an to not call on other than those He has authorised. He says don't call on other than Him, end of story. As for what you are saying:

And they serve beside Allah what can neither harm them nor profit them, and they say: These are our intercessors with Allah. Say: Do you (presume to) inform Allah of what He knows not in the heavens and the earth? Glory be to Him, and supremely exalted is He above what they set up (with Him). [Qur'an 10:18, Shakir translation]

Now, surely, sincere obedience is due to Allah (alone) and (as for) those who take guardians besides Him, (saying), We do not serve them save that they may make us nearer to Allah, surely Allah will judge between them in that in which they differ; surely Allah does not guide him aright who is a liar, ungrateful. [Qur'an 39:3, Shakir translation]

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Ok, so tell me what you think all those verses mean then?

The type of help you ask for from your mother isn't the same type of help as you ask from Allah. However, the type of help people ask from Imam Ali (as) is exactly the same type of help that is asked from Allah. This is the difference. And the same goes for calling on your mother and calling on Imam Ali (as).

This is exactly what Christians say. They ask us if Allah isn't powerful enough to take human form, like they believe He did with Jesus (as).

Now you think there are different types of help.

How can human form and associating someone with Allah not imagining him with limited powers.

Doing shirk is what you possibly can do to imagine him with limiting being and imagine him in human form are you crazy? Is not it worst imagination of Christians to consider him limited being.

Edited by fightingsoul001

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Allah doesn't say in the Qur'an to not call on other than those He has authorised. He says don't call on other than Him, end of story. As for what you are saying:

And they serve beside Allah what can neither harm them nor profit them, and they say: These are our intercessors with Allah. Say: Do you (presume to) inform Allah of what He knows not in the heavens and the earth? Glory be to Him, and supremely exalted is He above what they set up (with Him). [Qur'an 10:18, Shakir translation]

Now, surely, sincere obedience is due to Allah (alone) and (as for) those who take guardians besides Him, (saying), We do not serve them save that they may make us nearer to Allah, surely Allah will judge between them in that in which they differ; surely Allah does not guide him aright who is a liar, ungrateful. [Qur'an 39:3, Shakir translation]

It's clear Allah is referring to idols,reprimanding pagans.You are deriving out of context meaning,show us Tafaseer where Imam(as) said these Ayaat have anything to do with Muslims.

We can't take those intercessors who are not designated by Him,just like that we can't transgress the number of Rakaat in Salaat,but only that much as He prescribed.When we can't make laws of worship out of our own will,how can we make intercessors without His will.

And it's obvious those Laat o Izza were not authorized ones.

Edited by Kaniz e Zahra

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Now you think there are different types of help.

How can human form and associating someone with Allah not limiting his powers.

Doing shirk is the what you possibly can do to limit his powers and imagine him in human form are you crazy? Is not it worst form of limiting him.

Haydar is correct. People worship Allah, and worship and speak to Allah through intermediates. You do not worship or speak to your mother, as you do with God.

The difference is, Allah would know and understand everything, without the necessity of having an intermediate. To believe an intermediate is necessary, is to believe that Allah couldnt handle it himself, or that it were more efficient than what Allah could handle himself.

I speak to my mother (God) about helping me with worldly matters, and she is a source of information. I do not need to talk to my older brother (Ali) first if my mother (God) already fully understands my concern. To say that I need to talk to my older brother (Ali) first, to get my older brother (Ali) to talk to my mother (God), only shows us that the mother is incapable or less efficient at understanding us herself. As if the Mother couldnt handle it or is too great to listen to her own child.

Why would an older brother be necessary if the mother is fully capable of understanding on her own?

Which is not the case with God. That question is rhetoric.

Edited by iDevonian

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Haydar is correct. People worship Allah, and worship and speak to Allah through intermediates. You do not worship or speak to your mother, as you do with God.

The difference is, Allah would know and understand everything, without the necessity of having an intermediate. To believe an intermediate is necessary, is to believe that Allah couldnt handle it himself, or that it were more efficient than what Allah could handle himself.

I speak to my mother (God) about helping me with worldly matters, and she is a source of information. I do not need to talk to my older brother (Ali) first if my mother (God) already fully understands my concern. To say that I need to talk to my older brother (Ali) first, to get my older brother (Ali) to talk to my mother (God), only shows us that the mother is incapable or less efficient at understanding us herself. As if the Mother couldnt handle it or is too great to listen to her own child.

Why would an older brother be necessary if the mother is fully capable of understanding on her own?

Which is not the case with God. That question is rhetoric.

We don't need intermediary to make Allah listen something,He is all knowing,all hearing,but we need intermediaries to make our Prayers effective,i.e to change our destinies.

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It's clear Allah is referring to idols,reprimanding pagans.You are deriving out of context meaning,show us Tafaseer where Imam(as) said these Ayaat have anything to do with Muslims.

We can't take those intercessors who are not designated by Him,just like that we can't transgress the number of Rakaat in Salaat,but only that much as He prescribed.When we can't make laws of worship out of our own will,how can we make intercessors without His will.

And it's obvious those Laat o Izza were not authorized ones.

So all those verses have no relevance to us today?

What about the verse

Or assign they unto Allah partners who created the like of His creation so that the creation (which they made and His creation) seemed alike to them? Say: Allah is the Creator of all things, and He is the One, the Almighty" [13:16]

Was that not about idols? Yet Imam Ja`far al-Sadiq (as) used it to refute the mufawwidah. It's true that these verses were mostly against idols, but they are stated in general language, and contain general principles. Otherwise you might as well say they were only aimed at the idols the Arabs were worshiping, and not idols from other places.

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So all those verses have no relevance to us today?

What about the verse

Or assign they unto Allah partners who created the like of His creation so that the creation (which they made and His creation) seemed alike to them? Say: Allah is the Creator of all things, and He is the One, the Almighty" [13:16]

Was that not about idols? Yet Imam Ja`far al-Sadiq (as) used it to refute the mufawwidah. It's true that these verses were mostly against idols, but they are stated in general language, and contain general principles. Otherwise you might as well say they were only aimed at the idols the Arabs were worshiping, and not idols from other places.

When did i say so,please tell me?

This wasn't only about idols ,Imam(as) elaborated it,but those verses which you quote against Shias have no relevence to them,were never referred this way by Imams(as).

Edited by Kaniz e Zahra

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we need intermediaries to make our Prayers effective,i.e to change our destinies.

Prove this statement from the Qur'an or the words of the Prophet (pbuh) and Imams (as).

Meanwhile, here is some of my evidence against it:

And when My servants ask you concerning Me, then surely I am very near; I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he calls on Me, so they should answer My call and believe in Me that they may walk in the right way. [2:186]

Say: Tell me if the chastisement of Allah should overtake you or the hour should come upon you, will you call (on others) besides Allah, if you are truthful? Nay, Him you call upon, so He clears away that for which you pray if He pleases and you forget what you set up (with Him). [6:40-41, Shakir]

Say: Who is it that delivers you from the dangers of the land and the sea (when) you call upon Him (openly) humiliating yourselves, and in secret: If He delivers us from this, we should certainly be of the grateful ones. Say: Allah delivers you from them and from every distress, but again you set up others (with Him). [6:63-64]

And when affliction touches a man, he calls on Us, whether lying on his side or sitting or standing; but when We remove his affliction from him, he passes on as though he had never called on Us on account of an affliction that touched him; thus that which they do is made fair-seeming to the extravagant. [10:12]

He it is Who makes you travel by land and sea; until when you are in the ships, and they sail on with them in a pleasant breeze, and they rejoice, a violent wind overtakes them and the billows surge in on them from all sides, and they become certain that they are encompassed about, they pray to Allah, being sincere to Him in obedience: If Thou dost deliver us from this, we will most certainly be of the grateful ones. Yet when He hath delivered them, behold! they rebel in the earth wrongfully. O mankind! Your rebellion is only against yourselves. (Ye have) enjoyment of the life of the world; then unto Us is your return and We shall proclaim unto you what ye used to do. [10:22-23]

And when distress afflicts a man he calls upon his Lord turning to Him frequently; then when He makes him possess a favor from Him, he forgets that for which he called upon Him before, and sets up rivals to Allah that he may cause (men) to stray off from His path. Say: Enjoy yourself in your ungratefulness a little, surely you are of the inmates of the fire. [39:8]

And your Lord says: Call upon Me, I will answer you; surely those who are too proud for My service shall soon enter hell abased. [40:60]

1 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub from Abu `Ali al Ash`ari from Muhammad b. `Abd al Jabbar from ibn Mahbub from Abu Hafs al A`sha from `Umar (in the copy: `Amr)b. Khalid from Abu Hamzah al Thumali from `Ali b. al Husain Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. He said: I went out until I reached this wall against which I reclined, when a man wearing two pieces of a white garment looked at my face and said: O `Ali b. al Husain! Why is it that I see you depressed and grieving? – until he said (translator: the author has not included the middle portion of the sourced hadith) – then he said: O `Ali b. al Husain Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã! Have you seen anyone call on Allah while He has not answered him? I said: No. He said: Have you seen anyone place tawakkul in Allah while He has not sufficed him? I said: No. He said: Have you seen anyone ask Allah while He has not granted him? I said: No. Then he disappeared from me. (al Kafi)

Develop the habit of patience against sufferings, calamities and adversities. This virtue of patience is one of the highest values of morality and nobility of character and it is the best habit which one can develop. Trust in Allah and let your mind seek His protection in every calamity and suffering because you will thus entrust yourself and your affairs to the Best Trustee and to the Mightiest Guardian. Do not seek help or protection from anybody but Allah. Reserve your prayers, your requests, your solicitations, your supplications, and your entreaties to Him and Him alone because to grant, to give, to confer and to bestow, as well as to withhold, to deprive, to refuse, and to debar, lies only in His Power. Ask as much of His Blessings and seek as much of His Guidance as you can.

[...]

Realize this truth, my son, that the Lord who owns and holds the treasures of Paradise and the earth has given you permission to ask and beg for them and He has promised to grant your prayers. He has told you to pray for His Favours that they may be granted to you and to ask for His Blessings that they may be bestowed upon you. He has not appointed guards to prevent your prayers reaching Him. Nor is there any need for anybody to intercede before Him on your behalf. (Nahjul Balagha, Letter 31)

If the pagan Arabs could call directly on Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, and have their prayers answered, then I'm sure we can.

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What about Atheists? they get rizq,and everything without even calling upon Him,so would you take their example too?

As for your question to prove my statement,here are the proofs.

Source: Al-Toosi, Tahdheeb Al-aHkaam, vol. 2, pg. 321

My father - Allah have mercy on Him - said: Sa`d b. `Abdullah narrated to us, he said: Ahmad b. Muhammad b. `Isa narrated to us, from Hasan b. Sa`eed, from Fudalah b. Ayyub, from Abban b. `Uthman, from Muhammad b. Muslim, who said: I heard Aba `Abdillah (as) say:

"Indeed Allah, Mighty and Exalted, created certain creatures from His light, and a mercy from His mercy for the sake of His Mercy. For these are the eye of Allah that sees, and His ear that hears, and His tongue that speaks to His creation by His permission, and the safeguards over what has descended from (His) justifications and warnings and proofs. And through them He wards off grievances, and through them He sends down mercy, and through them He enlivens the dead, and causes to die the living. And through them He afflicts His creation (with tribulations), and through them He judges cases among His creation."

I asked: May I be your ransom - Who are these?

He (as) replied: Al-Awsiyaa (the vicegerents).

[source: Al-Tawheed by Sheikh Sadooq, Pg 167, H 24]

Imam Reza(as)

"When a hardship befalls you seek Allah’s help through us, and this is the saying of Allah, the Mighty and the Majestic, ‘And for Allah are the beautiful names, thus call upon Him by them." Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 91, p. 6

Imam Ali (a) says:

"I am the beautiful names of Allah, His great exemplars and His great signs." Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 53, p. 47, Hadith #20

Edited by Kaniz e Zahra

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We don't need intermediary to make Allah listen something,He is all knowing,all hearing,but we need intermediaries to make our Prayers effective,i.e to change our destinies.

Ok, and I will ask this.

what makes the prayer more effective? Does the prayer need to be translated or improved before Allah will understand it?

What about Atheists? they get rizq,and everything without even calling upon Him,so would you take their example too?

As for your question to prove my statement,here are the proofs.

Ur almost there. You are thinking, you are recognizing the layers of issues with this topic.

But, we should stay on topic, and rather than asking extensive questions, we should first recognize that Allah is indeed capable of hearing our prayers. Assuming he is there and listening. And is more than capable of understanding them in full and effective ways.

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Ok, and I will ask this.

what makes the prayer more effective? Does the prayer need to be translated or improved before Allah will understand it?

Ur almost there. You are thinking, you are recognizing the layers of issues with this topic.

But, we should stay on topic, and rather than asking extensive questions, we should first recognize that Allah is indeed capable of hearing our prayers. Assuming he is there and listening. And is more than capable of understanding them in full and effective ways.

The point was not that the hearing will be made effective by use of intercession but their acceptance is.

Why don't you question Imams(as) who are prescribing it? I have posted Ahadees above,why you only pick up point you find easier to discuss.

As much as Infallibles(as) are closer to Him nobody is,so they can intercede better on our behalf,that was what i said,don't twist the words.

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The point was not that the hearing will be made effective by use of intercession but their acceptance is.

Why don't you question Imams(as) who are prescribing it? I have posted Ahadees above,why you only pick up point you find easier to discuss.

As much as Infallibles(as) are closer to Him nobody is,so they can intercede better on our behalf,that was what i said,don't twist the words.

What makes prayer more acceptable if it is directed toward an intermediate rather than the ultimate destination? Does having an intermediate change how Allah views the person praying? Does an intermediate somehow transform the persons prayer into something more presentable?

I am discussing this point, because it is the point at hand.

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What makes prayer more acceptable if it is directed toward an intermediate rather than the ultimate destination? Does having an intermediate change how Allah views the person praying? Does an intermediate somehow transform the persons prayer into something more presentable?

I am discussing this point, because it is the point at hand.

No we actually pray to ultimate destination,intermediate can how be intermediate? if He was to be ultimate destination.

For your second point,how they make prayers effective?

You know the concept of bad'aa,the change of destiny,so in first instance whatever Allah has written He may wish to change,similarly He could reveal the Book ok directly,ok kul inshAllah baat nrebixed di

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I'd read "Ya Muhammad - I have turned to my lord and your lord through you - so that he forgives my sins" not as some formula of tawassul, but as a statement of allegiance to the path to God (consisting of actions of the deen) laid out by the Prophet whose grave you are visiting. That's how you turn to face God through the aimmah - by following the path they explained to us.

This metaphysical telegraph system reading seems entirely unnatural and unwarranted.

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I'd read "Ya Muhammad - I have turned to my lord and your lord through you - so that he forgives my sins" not as some formula of tawassul, but as a statement of allegiance to the path to God (consisting of actions of the deen) laid out by the Prophet whose grave you are visiting. That's how you turn to face God through the aimmah - by following the path they explained to us.

This metaphysical telegraph system reading seems entirely unnatural and unwarranted.

Even if his reading of it were to be accepted (which as you point out, it needn't be), to go against so many clear and explicit Quranic verses, and well as supporting ahadith, for the sake of one or two hadiths, no matter how strong, is absurd.

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I would like us all to shed some real light on Shirk and define it properly. I have a simple question for all.

Meaning of the name "Muhammad": The praised. Isn't this contradictory to our recitation of "Alhamdulillahi Rabbul 'aalameen." (All praise is for Allah..). Also one of Allah's 99 names is "Hameed". So is there a contradiction?

Meaning of the name "Ali": The high, or exalted one. "Ali" is also one of the 99 names of Allah. Isn't this "sharing of one of His attributes" and hence a form of Shirk?

Since these are undeniable things that even a layman like myself could understand as compared to ahadith or quranic translations for example, how do you explain the above. Remember that my intention here is to learn only before someone reaches for their flamethrower. I appreciate the ongoing discussion and hope that this indicated "Shirk debate" may be solved comprehensively with decisive arguments.

Personally, I thought Shirk happens when in your heart you have set someone else's level or status equal to Allah's or alike His. Like when the kuffar of Mecca had 360 idols inside Ka'ba and one of them's name was "Allah".

Besides the Quranic warnings on Shirk, it is also a weighty consideration that we do not find any supplications of the Prophet or Imams (pbuh) that uses tawassul in any other form except how Al-Mufeed mentioned it. Even then once again it depends on the intention in the heart. However, two things:

- The illiterate Shia masses I've come across use "Ya Ali madad" and relevant understanding of what we refer to as tawassul in a way rather suited for the nusehris. They do not have the intention of invoking Allah through the statement. It is because of ignorance and the intricacy of tawassul I reckon.

- The illiterate non-Shia masses immediately see this as Shirk. This greatly helps the terrorist mullah elements to further throw gas on the fire and I believe that a majority of the Shia murdered by ignorant terrorists have this excuse among the top. Their mentors simply show them the very similar "nusehri" or ghulat activities which is enough to deceive them.

Here is a question directed at the tawassul proponents:

- Is tawassul absolutely necessary and can it not be done without? Would abandoning it come near to or under the jurisdiction of nasb?

Here is another question for ALL: (Be honest)

- When was the last time that ANY of your duas were heard and accepted? Did you use tawassul or did you pray directly? :)

Thanks.

Edited by Abu Dujana

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Even if his reading of it were to be accepted (which as you point out, it needn't be), to go against so many clear and explicit Quranic verses, and well as supporting ahadith, for the sake of one or two hadiths, no matter how strong, is absurd.

There are clear,explicit Verses about our beliefs as well,with no out of context, self desired meanings.

As for Ahadees ,they are not few either.

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In a general context:

"They will have no power of intercession, save him who has made a covenant with his Lord."

Noble Quran 19:87

In the context of Angels interceding on behalf of humans:

"The angels hymn the praise of their Lord and ask forgiveness for those on the Earth."

Noble Quran 42:5

ALI

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