Calling On Other Than Allah In The Quran

*~Fatima~* · February 14, 2012

Ok, but why would you want to do something other than the best form of wasila? That's what doesn't make sense to me.

Regardless of your ranking of the wasila, the Ahl al Bayt (a) are undeniably wasila, right?

One wasila teaches you the namaz and Quran and religion - and the wasila that is not the teacher is better?

Remember when the Quran was mounted on lances and people could not fight the Holy Book? Remember Ubaidallah ibn Ziyad engaged in the wasila of prayer, murderer of Imam Husayn Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã? What profit did namaz bring him, when he rejected the wasila that was the Inheritor of the whole religion, of which namaz is a part? Hence, you must forgive us if we disagree with your choice of the ‘best’ wasila. No doubt it will not diminish the importance of the namaz or other wasila, being teachings of the Prophet (s) and Ahl al Bayt Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã.

Where are these countless narrations? I've never seen a single one that could in any way be considered authentic (not talking about nade ali here). Can you post a few of them?

e.g. Ziyarat al Jameya posted on this forum recently

Ziyarat e Ashura.. in fact nearly all Ziyarats begin with "Ya" be it Rasool Allah, or Aba Abdillah.

Addressing the Prophet (s) and Imams (a) and even other venerable personalities of their household is customary among shias.

Dua e Tawassul contains address to Alh al Bayt Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã.. so does Dua e ‘Ahad. Oh and by the way, do you not say ‘Asalaamo alayka ya Rasool Allah (s)’ on the prayer mat? Now apart from asking Allah to send your salaam upon the Prophet (s) in Durood, if Allah likes you to address His Prophet (s) while you are on the prayer mat specifically for Allah, does that not make it apparent what status the Prophet (s) holds?

And the naad e Ali (a) is my personal favorite :) I don’t see why anyone should have an issue with it - if you don’t believe it is addressing Imam Ali (a) you can always recite it as a direct address to Allah? Ali is one of the names of Allah as well.

Picking and choosing? Did you see how many I posted? And how few get posted in response, and that those few don't even properly deal with the subject.
As for what the Sunnis do, I couldn't care less. Many of them believe in tawassul and istighatha as well, so they can hardly say anything.
Just to be clear though, I only consider it to be shirk when you are calling on other than Allah, asking for needs to be met. For example, wanting a child, recovery from illness, etc. If someone calls on the Imams for them to pray for them, then I would consider it useless and unnecessary, but I'm not sure if that is shirk. However, at the very least, you would explictly need to be saying you are asking them to pray for you, not leave it in the intention.
Where it is clearly shirk in my view is when you say something like 'Ya Ali, cure me of this illness', 'Ya Ali, save me', or 'Ya Ali, bless me with a child'.

What if the person who is really sick knows that Imam Mahdi (a) is the Representative of Allah, and finds it easier to say 'Ya Mahdi Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã, cure me' rather than say a 2 rakaat namaaz e haajat? You might choose the other means, i.e. namaaz, but you can't blame the other person for not choosing the same means, when Allah has given us a variety of means.

When the basis of addressing the Imam (a) is the fact that he is the Authority of Allah, and the very address derives from the recommendation of Allah, then how is it that the two stations - that of Creator and Creation be confused?

If you consider asking the Imam (a) to pray for you useless, then you need not ask him. If you pray salaat and then ask Allah, I do believe this means has been taught by the Prophet (s) and the Ahl al Bayt (a) so you’re praying as the Imam (a) has taught you to. You are using the wasila that is the Imam (a) in the same way as the person who says ‘Ya Mahdi Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã.’ However, this does not give you the right to disparage someone who is seeking (addressing) wasila (Imam) in much the same way as you are seeking (praying) wasila (salaat). Your determination to protect your Tauheed is admirable, but at the same time you can’t condemn others who also believe in Tauheed but differ from you merely in the manner of ‘seeking’ of wasila.

If you believe that Ahl al Bayt (a) are also wasila, then Surah Maida, ayat 35 makes it abundantly clear that one should seek them.

[2:255]

Allah is He besides Whom there is no god, the Everliving, the Self-subsisting by Whom all subsist; slumber does not overtake Him nor sleep; whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His; who is he that can intercede with Him but by His permission? He knows what is before them and what is behind them, and they cannot comprehend anything out of His knowledge except what He pleases, His knowledge extends over the heavens and the earth, and the preservation of them both tires Him not, and He is the Most High, the Great.

And there is also a description of those who can intercede in [43:86] "he who bears witness of the truth and they know (him)." (And those whom they call upon besides Him have no authority for intercession, but he who bears witness of the truth and they know (him)

[19:87]

None shall have the power of intercession, but such a one as has received permission (or promise) from (Allah) Most Gracious.

[20:109]

On that day shall no intercession avail except of him whom the Beneficent Allah allows and whose word He is pleased with.

[21:28]

He knows what is before them and what is behind them, and they do not intercede except for him whom He approves and for fear of Him they tremble.

[34:23]

And intercession will not avail aught with Him save of him whom He permits. Until when fear shall be removed from their hearts, They shall say: What is it that your Lord said? They shall say: The truth. And He is the Most High, the Great.

**Haydar Husayn** · February 14, 2012

Regardless of your ranking of the wasila, the Ahl al Bayt (a) are undeniably wasila, right?

Sure, but not in the sense of needing them to pray for you. Rather, it is in obeying them.

Nahjul Balagha, Letter 31

Develop the habit of patience against sufferings, calamities and adversities. This virtue of patience is one of the highest values of morality and nobility of character and it is the best habit which one can develop. Trust in Allah and let your mind seek His protection in every calamity and suffering because you will thus entrust yourself and your affairs to the Best Trustee and to the Mightiest Guardian. Do not seek help or protection from anybody but Allah. Reserve your prayers, your requests, your solicitations, your supplications, and your entreaties to Him and Him alone because to grant, to give, to confer and to bestow, as well as to withhold, to deprive, to refuse, and to debar, lies only in His Power. Ask as much of His Blessings and seek as much of His Guidance as you can.

[...]

Realize this truth, my son, that the Lord who owns and holds the treasures of Paradise and the earth has given you permission to ask and beg for them and He has promised to grant your prayers. He has told you to pray for His Favours that they may be granted to you and to ask for His Blessings that they may be bestowed upon you. He has not appointed guards to prevent your prayers reaching Him. Nor is there any need for anybody to intercede before Him on your behalf.

You see, Imam Ali (as) says there is not need for anyone to interceed on your behalf when it comes to praying and supplicating to Allah سبحانه وتعالى.

One wasila teaches you the namaz and Quran and religion - and the wasila that is not the teacher is better?
Remember when the Quran was mounted on lances and people could not fight the Holy Book? Remember Ubaidallah ibn Ziyad engaged in the wasila of prayer, murderer of Imam Husayn عليه السلام? What profit did namaz bring him, when he rejected the wasila that was the Inheritor of the whole religion, of which namaz is a part? Hence, you must forgive us if we disagree with your choice of the ‘best’ wasila. No doubt it will not diminish the importance of the namaz or other wasila, being teachings of the Prophet (s) and Ahl al Bayt عليه السلام.

It's not my opinion of which is better, it's that of Imam Ali (as).

Nahjul Balagha, Sermon 109

The best means by which seekers of nearness to Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, seek nearness, is the belief in Him and His Prophet, fighting in His cause, for it is the high pinnacle of Islam, and (to believe) in the kalimatu'l-'ikhlas (the expression of Divine purification) for it is just nature and the establishment of prayer for it is (the basis of) community, payment of zakat (Islamic tax) for it is a compulsory obligation, fasting for the month of Ramadan for it is the shield against chastisement, the performance of hajj of the House of Allah (i. e . Ka`bah) and its `umrah (other than annual visit) for these two acts banish poverty and wash away sins, regard for kinship for it increases wealth and length of life, to giving alms secretly for it covers shortcomings, giving alms openly for it protects against a bad death and extending benefits (to people) for it saves from positions of disgrace.

Do you see anything here about praying through Prophets and Imams? No, but the Imam is giving the best form of wasila.

e.g. Ziyarat al Jameya posted on this forum recently
Ziyarat e Ashura.. in fact nearly all Ziyarats begin with "Ya" be it Rasool Allah, or Aba Abdillah.
Addressing the Prophet (s) and Imams (a) and even other venerable personalities of their household is customary among shias.
Dua e Tawassul contains address to Alh al Bayt عليه السلام.. so does Dua e ‘Ahad. Oh and by the way, do you not say ‘Asalaamo alayka ya Rasool Allah (s)’ on the prayer mat? Now apart from asking Allah to send your salaam upon the Prophet (s) in Durood, if Allah likes you to address His Prophet (s) while you are on the prayer mat specifically for Allah, does that not make it apparent what status the Prophet (s) holds?

You see, all the 'proof' comes from ziyarats and duas that are mostly of dubious origin. What I am looking for is a normal hadith where an Imam instructs his followers to call upon the Prophet (pbuh) or another Imam to pray on his behalf, or to answer his supplications directly.

As for sending Salam to the Prophet (pbuh), that gets reported to him, but he doesn't hear it unless you are near his grave.

And the Messenger of Allah (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) said: Whoever gives salam upon me at my grave I hear him, and whoever gives salam upon me from afar I am informed of it, the peace of Allah be upon him and the mercy of Allah and His blessings.

http://www.shiachat....re-all-hearing/

And the naad e Ali (a) is my personal favorite :) I don’t see why anyone should have an issue with it - if you don’t believe it is addressing Imam Ali (a) you can always recite it as a direct address to Allah? Ali is one of the names of Allah as well.

Maybe they have an issue with it because the earliest reference we have for it is from the 16th century, and it was unknown in Shia sources before that. Or maybe because it has content that sounds like shirk.

Call Ali, who is Manifestor of wonders, Thou shall surely find him helper in your difficulties, all grief and sorrow shall be removed.

http://www.duas.org/..._ali_kabeer.htm

NAdey Ali Mazharal Ajaib..... is a small Dua which, like all other Duas, have come down to us through a chain of narrators. This Dua like a hadith has to undergo a treatment with the Maraji who would then be the best judge to the authenticity of the Dua. With regards to Nadey Ali, Ayatullah Khui (ra) responded to a question answering that the Riwayat (tradition) is not established as authentic in his view.

http://www.al-islam....k/msg00061.html

What if the person who is really sick knows that Imam Mahdi (a) is the Representative of Allah, and finds it easier to say 'Ya Mahdi عليه السلام, cure me' rather than say a 2 rakaat namaaz e haajat? You might choose the other means, i.e. namaaz, but you can't blame the other person for not choosing the same means, when Allah has given us a variety of means.

I disagree that Allah has given a variety of means. The Quran is very explicit about not calling on other than Allah. Can you least admit that is the message the Quran appears to be giving?

You do know that you don't need to make a formal prayer of two rakats everytime you want to supplicate to Allah, right? It is not more difficult to say 'Ya Allah, cure me' than it is to say 'Ya Mahdi' cure me, so why would you not call upon Allah? It's rather sad that people are now only addressing Allah in salah, and reserve all their duas for the Imams (as). Even the pagan Arabs knew who to call upon when they were in trouble, and Allah answered them.

And when affliction touches a man, he calls on Us, whether lying on his side or sitting or standing; but when We remove his affliction from him, he passes on as though he had never called on Us on account of an affliction that touched him; thus that which they do is made fair-seeming to the extravagant. [10:12]

He it is Who makes you travel by land and sea; until when you are in the ships, and they sail on with them in a pleasant breeze, and they rejoice, a violent wind overtakes them and the billows surge in on them from all sides, and they become certain that they are encompassed about, they pray to Allah, being sincere to Him in obedience: If Thou dost deliver us from this, we will most certainly be of the grateful ones. Yet when He hath delivered them, behold! they rebel in the earth wrongfully. O mankind! Your rebellion is only against yourselves. (Ye have) enjoyment of the life of the world; then unto Us is your return and We shall proclaim unto you what ye used to do. [10:22-23]

When the basis of addressing the Imam (a) is the fact that he is the Authority of Allah, and the very address derives from the recommendation of Allah, then how is it that the two stations - that of Creator and Creation be confused?

What recommendation of Allah? I don't see it.

The confusion comes from the fact that people are asking the creation for something that should only be asked of the creator, thereby not properlyhonoring the creator.

And they have not honored Allah with the honor that is due to Him; and the whole earth shall be in His grip on the day of resurrection and the heavens rolled up in His right hand; glory be to Him, and may He be exalted above what they associate (with Him). [39:67]

If you consider asking the Imam (a) to pray for you useless, then you need not ask him.

It's useless because he can't hear you, as the hadith above states, and there is no proof your supplication reaches him, or that he would help you even if it did reach him.

If you pray salaat and then ask Allah, I do believe this means has been taught by the Prophet (s) and the Ahl al Bayt (a) so you’re praying as the Imam (a) has taught you to. You are using the wasila that is the Imam (a) in the same way as the person who says ‘Ya Mahdi عليه السلام.’ However, this does not give you the right to disparage someone who is seeking (addressing) wasila (Imam) in much the same way as you are seeking (praying) wasila (salaat).

One type of wasila is proven and allowed, and the other one is unproven and forbidden. The Imams never told us to call upon them, and neither did Allah tell us to do so. Rather, they said the opposite.

Your determination to protect your Tauheed is admirable, but at the same time you can’t condemn others who also believe in Tauheed but differ from you merely in the manner of ‘seeking’ of wasila.

If I think someone is committing Shirk, then it's my duty to warn them about it. I'm not forcing anyone to do anything, just presenting my arguments, and reminding them of what Allah says in the Quran. And remember that anything that contradicts the Quran is to be rejected.

If you believe that Ahl al Bayt (a) are also wasila, then Surah Maida, ayat 35 makes it abundantly clear that one should seek them.

No, you are reading into it. It says to seek nearness to Allah, but that doesn't mean calling upon the Imams. That is an interpretation forced onto the text. If someone wants to justify it, then they need to bring a hadith from the Imams (as) giving that interpretation.

[2:255]
Allah is He besides Whom there is no god, the Everliving, the Self-subsisting by Whom all subsist; slumber does not overtake Him nor sleep; whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His; who is he that can intercede with Him but by His permission? He knows what is before them and what is behind them, and they cannot comprehend anything out of His knowledge except what He pleases, His knowledge extends over the heavens and the earth, and the preservation of them both tires Him not, and He is the Most High, the Great.
And there is also a description of those who can intercede in [43:86] "he who bears witness of the truth and they know (him)." (And those whom they call upon besides Him have no authority for intercession, but he who bears witness of the truth and they know (him)
[19:87]
None shall have the power of intercession, but such a one as has received permission (or promise) from (Allah) Most Gracious.
[20:109]
On that day shall no intercession avail except of him whom the Beneficent Allah allows and whose word He is pleased with.
[21:28]
He knows what is before them and what is behind them, and they do not intercede except for him whom He approves and for fear of Him they tremble.
[34:23]
And intercession will not avail aught with Him save of him whom He permits. Until when fear shall be removed from their hearts, They shall say: What is it that your Lord said? They shall say: The truth. And He is the Most High, the Great.

All these verses are talking about intercession (shifa`a) on the Day of Judgement, as even the author of a book that defends tawassul and istighatha admits:

http://www.shiachat....and-istighatha/

Edited February 14, 2012 by Haydar Husayn

kim.tinkerbell · February 14, 2012

Didnt you say that you cant dismess a hadith 100% because it may not be fabricated... In other threads?

So all this hadiths people sent have been skipped, but when you send werid or shocking hadiths that sound fabricated you get suprised why people react the way they do,,,,

If these people are geniune and ask throu the imams (as) and they have back up then it dosent always mean there mushriken because they know god comes first and everything else is after....

We go in circles and drop in the whole that we built for our selfs.....

**Haydar Husayn** · February 14, 2012

Didnt you say that you cant dismess a hadith 100% because it may not be fabricated... In other threads?
So all this hadiths people sent have been skipped, but when you send werid or shocking hadiths that sound fabricated you get suprised why people react the way they do,,,,
If these people are geniune and ask throu the imams (as) and they have back up then it dosent always mean there mushriken because they know god comes first and everything else is after....
We go in circles and drop in the whole that we built for our selfs.....

You can reject a hadith that contradicts the Quran (which none of the 'shocking' ones I posted did), or that is there is very strong evidence is fabricated (for example nade ali).

But where are all these ahadith I am supposed to be rejecting? I don't see them. Apart from nade ali, all I've said about the duas and ziyarats is they are not sufficient proof when you consider all the evidence in the opposite direction.

You can't really compare the amount of evidence I provided in those different threads to the amount of evidence that has been provided against me on this thread.

sayed khalid sultani · February 15, 2012

Dear all,

Asalamu alikum, and thanks you very much for your information and time you dedicated to write the posts.

I also do agree with brother haider and shia dabator in this regards , and they both clearly presents proof that we can’t deny.

The think about this practice is that we are attributing some of the attributes of Allah (s.w.t) to imam like all hearing , all seaing , they can hear us from everywhere , they know the circumstance that we are in,they have knowledge of past present future, though the intention of caller may not be like that directly. This is clearly denied by below verse.

016:74. So, do not coin similarities for Allah. Surely, Allah knows and you do not know.

The first response that caller will tell you after Allah(s.w.t) accept his/her prayers will refer you to indirect person for that and will say: look specific imam answered my prayers and asked Allah for my forgiveness but with the passage of time this underline above part will not be part of your belief.

0039:08. And when man is afflicted by pain, he calls his Lord turning to Him passionately. Thereafter, when He blesses him with some favor from Him, he forgets that for which he was calling Him earlier, and sets up partners for Allah, so that he leads others astray from His way. Say, “Enjoy (the pleasure of) your disbelief for a while, (then) surely, you are from among the people of the Fire.”

Future generation will read current scholar’s book and they will say oh our ancestors had more taqwa then us ,and they were in the right path so we should follow them and pray to imams, and then some other group will be against their thoughts and a new sector will be invented.

In my point of view any newly innovated thing in religion shall be matched first with the qurhan majeed which is the guide for all humanity, if it’s now found or by other words we can’t get through understanding out of aya , we should refer to prophet sunna, then we should see to the behavior and response of ahlubiat , and then ijma of current scholers.

If anything contradicts with first source which is qurhan majeed is not accepted by us.

We should dedicate our prayers, supplication our sacrifices to Allah (s.w.t) only

0039:11. Say, “I have been ordered to worship Allah, making my submission exclusive to Him.

as specified in sermon of najal balagha which was provided by brother haider hussien, and I thank him for this.

0039:03. Remember, Allah alone deserves the exclusive submission. As for those who have adopted guardians other than Him (saying), “We worship them for no other reason

but because they would bring us near to Allah closely”, Allah will

judge between them in the matters in which they are differing. Surely,

Allah does not guide anyone who is liar, highly infidel.

We place our trust on Allah(s.w.t) only fully submit our self to him, and always do tawakul on Allah(s.w.t) and Allah(s.w.t) is sufficient for us.

0065:03. and provides him (with what he needs) from where he does not even imagine. And whoever places his trust in Allah, He is sufficient for him. Surely Allah is to accomplish His purpose. Allah has set a measure for every thing.

0014:12. What is wrong with us that we should not put our trust in Allah when He has guided us to our paths? We shall, of course, endure with patience all your persecutions; and all those who have to trust should trust only in Allah.”

Wasila is different from intercession , if some one is sick and he/she don’t take medicine , he/she is the most stupid person on earth, but after taking medicine if he/she believes in his/her heart that the medicine give him/her cure(shifa) not Allah(s.w.t) then it is shirk.

Intercession can only be done by the one whom Allah (s.w.t) has provided permission in the hereafter not In this world , and we don’t know to whom the right belongs.

From the ahadid it is known that only prophet mohammad (pbuh) has exclusive permission for intercession in the judgment day.

That’s all from my side I guess sufficient reasons were given by all against this practice, and the one who still have doubts then refer to qurhan.

Regards,

Kaniz e Zahra · April 27, 2012

Assalam o Alaikum,well this is my first day at shia chat,and m really astonished to see,that this day was to be seen yet when shias will turn their tongues,nd hands against ALI(AS)first of all do u ppl only read portion of Quran that molvis referred u to,plzzz don't be biased in regards of ALI(AS)our faith is nothing without him,anyways that was the formal request now let me come to the point,first i also want to quote verses as ur reply

"Whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His; who is he that can intercede with Him but by his permission" (2:255); "Surely your Lord is Allah who created the heavens and the earth in six periods, and He is firmly established on the throne, regulating the affair; there is no intercessor except after His Permission."

We did not send a messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they had done injustice to themselves, come to you and asked Allah's forgiveness; and the messenger (also) had asked pardon for them, surely, they would have found Allah oft-returning, merciful" (4:64)".

38. He said (to his own men): "Ye chiefs! which of you can bring me her throne before they come to me in submission?"

39. Said an 'Ifrit, of the Jinns: "I will bring it to thee before thou rise from thy council: indeed I have full strength for the purpose, and may be trusted."

40. Said one who had knowledge of the Book: "I will bring it to thee within the twinkling of an eye!" Then when (Solomon) saw it placed firmly before him, he said: "This is by the Grace of my Lord!- to test me whether I am grateful or ungrateful! and if any is grateful, truly his gratitude is (a gain) for his own soul; but if any is ungrateful, truly my Lord is Free of all Needs, Supreme in Honour !"

look ppl Prophet SOLOMON(AS)could directly ask Allah for bringing in takht e Bilqees but he sought help from person with knowledge of a Book it's mentioned in all Shia tafaseer that Asif bin barkhia brought that throne,wasn't it a supernatural task if he could control a matter in a distant land,can't ALI(AS) do so,who has a knowledge of most superior Book of Allah.Asif ibne barkhia was deputy for Solomon ALI(AS)is deputy of Last PROPHET(SAWW).as martyrs are alive so His powers in the world can't end with life in this world.

tell me honestly read any Tafseer and see what Imam have to say about 'NAMES'Allah has referred to in Surah e Baqra,which HE teach to ADAM,and these were the names which made him suprior to satan and angels,What great worshippers they were still they had to bow before Adam who haven't offered a single salat yet.When just familiarity with their names can make Adam laiq e SAJDA,what WOULD BE THEY THEMSELVES???u question their authority when RASOOL(SAWW)said I AND ALI ARE PART OF SAME NOOR,WHICH EXISTED EVEN WHEN ADAM WAS BETWEEN DUST AND WATER.

fear God brother,for Allah has completed his Signs for His creations,as far as ur mentioned AYAATS are concerned,do u claim to understand Quran without assistance from AHLEBAIT(AS)?you insist on evidence from Imams again and again,look at their Explanations of those AYAAT as you mentioned,they have clearly elaborated the reasons of revealations of those VERSES,they targeted certain occasions and ppl,mostly pagans,or hypocrites.

why HAZRAT YOUSAF(AS)send his shirt for his father he could simply prayed to Allah when his father did arrive,but he send his shirt and that gave shifa to Prophet.

Are they not clear enough proofs,if u r really not biased then u will agree,otherwise its ur matter and plzzz dn't provide me repeated illusions,and self drawn meanings of Ayaat,nor fabricated AHADEES,as PROPHET(SAWW)SAYS DON'T ACCEPT ANY WORDS ATTRIBUTED TOWARDS ME IF THEY CLASH WITH QURAN.This is more authentic way of judging Hadees than ilm ul Rijaal even.

Kaniz e Zahra · April 27, 2012

Does somebody need to say something on what i posted today?

shah1 · April 29, 2012

Can we or Are we allowed to ask prophet pbuh or Allahs righteous servants to pray for us If they are dead?

The same way I ask u to do dua for me or ask my mum to do dua for me can I ask prophet pbuh to do dua for me?

The people who think it is not allowed and amounts to shirk are very much misguided.

When u tackle the subject academically with proofs from the Quran and hadiths u will find out it is allowed.

First of all let's look at the definition of death.

Definition of death in English

1. the permanent end of all functions of life in an organism (or some of its cellular components)

WHICH IS NOT CORRECT DEFINITION TO A MISLIM!

Now lets look at Quran

Quran 7:77-79

It says, and Quran testifies that Salih addressed to his nation who had already been perished by Allah. This shows clearly that souls of the dead can Hear, otherwise what is the meaning of Salih's address to them. Was the prophet Salih doing something stupid?

Quran 7:91-93

In these verse Prophet Shuaib's speech to the dead.

Was this prophet doing something stupid addressing the dead?

Quran 3:169

And never think of those who have been killed in the cause of Allaah as dead. Rather, they are alive with their Lord, receiving provision.}

In this verse it says ppl killed are not dead?

R u going to deny this verse?

Are martyrs higher than prophets? That Allah will keep them dead and martyrs alive?

Now let's look at hadiths

Prophet Muhammed pbuh Speech to the dead and him saying they the dead can hear better then you.

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 360

Sahih Muslim, Book 040, Number 6869

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 314

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 23, Number 452

Why was muhammed pbuh talking to dead? Are dead really dead, like the definition says?

Let's look at salat;

When sending Salams to muhammed and the righteous servents,

when you read AttahiyyaatuLillahi Was Salawato Wattayyibatu Assalamu Alaika Ayyuhannabi...

"All compliments, all physical prayer,

and all worship are for Allah.

Peace be upon you, Oh Prophet"....

When someone sends Salams on you it becomes wajib to send Salams back.

Do you think prophet pbuh doesn't do the wajibat?

What's the point of us sending Salam on a dead person if you don't get reply back 5 times a day?

Now according to Quran there are certain ppl who are allowed to intercede on our behalf in this life and here after. The criteria of them ppl are in the following verses.

Quran gives a criterea of people who can intercede.

Surah 2 Verse 255. .....Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth....

In verse 2:255 indicates

there are people who CAN intercede...

Surah 19 Verse 87 They will have no power of intercession, save him who hath made a covenant with his Lord.

the one had made a covenant with Allah(swt) can intercede.

Surah 20 verse 108 On that day shall no intercession avail except of him whom the Beneficent Allah allows and whose word He is pleased with.

the one who Allah(swt) accepts and is pleased with his word can intercede.

Surah 21 Verse 28 He knows what is before them and what is behind them, and they do not intercede except for him whom He approves

and for fear of Him they tremble.

Allah approves him and when he hears His name he then Trembles.

Surah 43 Verse 86 And those unto whom they cry instead of Him possess no power of intercession, saving him who beareth witness unto the Truth knowingly.

Who witness the Truth of Allah(swt) on earth and they had Knowledge.

SO THE CRITEREA FROM THE QURAN OF PEOPLE WHO CAN INTERCEDE ARE WHO Allah SWT SAYS:

1) I am pleased with them

2) I have accepted them

3) I am pleased with their words

4) When they hear my Name they tremble

5) They have Knowledge

6) They were witnesses to the Truth.

Now Allah also says in verse 5:35 to seek a means of approach to me. Also in Quran 17:57 prophets to use to seek a means of approach to Allah.

So we have established the following from Quran and Hadith and prayer.

1) Quran testifying that 2 prophets spoke to the dead.

2) Quran testifying that martyrs are not dead.

3) Hadiths testifying that Muhammad pbuh spoke to the dead and saying they hear better then us.

4) In salat we say Salam

5) Quran Six verses of intersession being allowed

6) Quran seeking a means of approach to Allah

So according to the English definition of being dead it is not correct as we are born to either go hell or heaven and to go there YOU need to be alive!

To say the dead cant be a means of approach to Allah swt is saying the dead are answering your duas. Now the mistake in this thinking is to believe that if a duaa from a pious man is answered while he is alive then he cannot help you if he is dead. It is as if they consider the pious man or sheikh or the wali as the origin of the help. This is complely wrong aqida:

IT IS ALWAYS Allah WHO IS THE SOURCE OF THE BARAKA AND NEVER A HUMAN BEING.

So to think that Allah can only give when that saint is alive and when he is dead, Allah does not give anymore, is to say that the source *is* the person and not Allah in the first place! But in reality it is Allah who is giving help in both cases: Alive or Dead....

Dead has been proven in the Quran & hadith, and salat from above that they can hear and are Infact alive!

If they the 'DEAD' can hear what prevents them from passing on our duas just like the 'ALIVE' do when we ask them?

PLEASE ANSWER THE ABOVE QUESTION!

Kaniz e Zahra · April 29, 2012

well brother shah,i dn't knw abt others but i vehemently agreed with u,the problem is that these so-called shia ulema r everyday bringing new innovations,and beguile the minda of young shias,who don't do research themselves but rely on scholars.I think it's obligatory for every shia to make study of Aqaid themselves,as Allah has granted them aqal,and like every naimat,they shall be accountable for their brains as well,tht how they use them.Ppl should come forward,and eradicate divisions amngst Shias,if it must be stopped,as already Shiasm has lot of enemies we have to stand together.

sayed khalid sultani · May 1, 2012

First of all asalamu alikum wa rahmatullah,

Thanks you kaniz e Zahra and brother shah for your posts , though I thought this topic won’t continue any way this will be my last and final post. Maybe some other member can continue this discussion in case required though I don’t see any further need.

To khadim Zahra,

Look ppl prophet solomon(as)could directly ask Allah for bringing in takht e bilqees but he sought help from person
With knowledge of a book it's mentioned in all shia tafaseer that asif bin barkhia brought that throne,wasn't it a
Supernatural task if he could control a matter in a distant land.

Well wind was in service of hazarat suliaman (a.s) with the permission of Allah(s.w.t) and it was one of his miracle ( show me a miracle which is not super natural) .

Rasool(saww)said i and ali are part of same noor,which existed even when adam was
Between dust and water.

This is fabricated hadid , similarly like they hadid which contains the text that they were both from the same noor , same tree and many other things they have made this by fabricated liars. These kind of hadidh were mentioned only by ghulat’s and not by ordinary 12 imami .

Why hazrat yousaf(as)send his shirt for his father he could simply prayed to Allah when his father did arrive,but he send his shirt and that gave shifa to prophet.

Yes we believe this and it was a miracle and so that his father heart found further calmness and assurance by seeing the yusuf (a.s) shirt that he is alive and not dead as claimed by his brothers.

He thanked Allah(s.w.t) for this and he didn’t belived that the clothe made the miracle?

(now you expect these kind of miracle from imams?).

To Shah:

7:77-79 :

Prophet salih saw the bodies in front of him , and the word oh my people was emotional expression through words.

The scholars have agreed That One of the adab of visiting tomb is to say asalamu alikum when you are visiting it and your salam will reach him/her with the permission of Allah(s.w.t).

According to tafsir ibn kasir from sunni source, in tafsir the above verse following hadidh was provided.

it is recorded in the Two Sahihs that after the Messenger of Allah defeated the

disbelievers in the battle of Badr, he remained in that area for three days, and then rode his

camel, which was prepared for him during the latter part of the night . He went on until he

stood by the well of Badr (where the corpses of the disbelievers were thrown) and said,

(O Abu Jahl bin Hisham! O ` Utbah bin Rabi` ah! O Shaybah bin Rabi` ah! Did you find what your

Lord has promised you (of torment) to be true, for I found what my Lord promised me (of

victory) to be t rue. ) ` Umar said to him, "O Allah's Messenger! Why do you speak to a people

who have rotted'' He said,

(By He in Whose Hand is my soul! You do not hear what I am saying better than they, but the cannot reply.)

7:91-93 is similar to above verse.

3:169 : yes we believe in this aya , people are alive and received sustenance in barzakh , doesn’t mean you can always have communication and they know what is in your heart / and know in what circumstance you are in , or probably they will see your crying…

Regarding hadidh of sahih bukhari , the above hadidh from ibn kasir suffice.

What's the point of us sending Salam on a dead person if you don't get reply back 5 times a day?

Why do you say peace be upon prophet and his family when you mention his name?

Surah 2 Verse 255. .....Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth....
In verse 2:255 indicates
there are people who CAN intercede...

yes agreed but permission is given by Allah (s.w.t) , who the hell are we to judge certain people have permission? Now we knows to whom Allah (s.w.t) has given permission in the qiyama? You know the intention of Allah(s.w.t) astaghfurullah..

while searching the internet it was very interesting that I found the saying of ibn tayimma very similar to my views and it is very interesting so I post part of the quote.

“..If Allah(s.w.t) has now allowed the intercession, the intercession is of no use, just as the intercession of nuh was of no use for his son,or that of Ibrahim for his father, or that of lut for his people, or the prophet sallallahu alahi wa-salam prayer for over the munafiqin and seeking forgiveness for them”.

The remaining verses clearly explain that the permission belong to Allah(s.w.t), does it mentioned the permission is given to certain imam?

To Allah belongs certain rights, among these including to slaughter in His Name, to prostrate before

no one but Him, and to direct Du'a to no one but Him. In this regard, the scholar Ibn Rajab said:

"Know that it is an obligation to invoke Allah Alone in Du`a, and not His creation... Admitting (and

showing) humility and meekness can only be revealed to Allah, Alone, for this is the essence of

worship."

And Du'a (supplication) is undoubtedly a part of worship, as Ibn Abbas said, "the best forms of worship is the du'a" [Munthir and Ibn Haakim].

"When my servants ask you concerning me, (tell them) I am indeed close (to them). I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calls on me." [2:186] The place of duaa is so high to Allah, that the Prophet had said: "Nothing is more honourable to Allah the Most High than du`a."

[sahih al-Jami` no.5268].

He also said: "The most excellent worship is du`a."

[sahih Al-Jami` no. 1133];

(Sunni Source).

from shia source brother haidar has already provided from najul balagha but I will mentioned a single hadidh from al-kafi after below aya.

003:135. -and those who, when they happen to commit a shameful act or wrong themselves, remember Allah, then, seek forgiveness for their sins -and who is there to

forgive sins except Allah?-and do not persist in what they have

done, knowingly.

Does Allah(s.w.t) says go prostrated before tomb and ask them for forgiving sins and your need?

040-60. Your Lord has said, “Call Me, I will respond to you. Definitely those who show arrogance against worshipping Me shall enter Jahannam (Hell) with disgrace.

Now where it say’s call on awliya, islam came to remove all intermediates in actions pertaining to worships .this is backbone of tawheed .even the pagan’s knew Allah(s.w.t) is there but they said we worship the idols in order to seek nearness to Allah(s.w.t).

Another hadidh from our shia source

ان الله لا یستجیب دعاء بظهر قلب ساه فاذا دعوت فاقبل بقلبک ثم استیقن بالاجابته

(kafi 373/2)

i found this from a Persian written book written by akbar deqan ,maybe some one who’s language is Arabic can translate this in a better way. But a rough translation is that Allah(s.w.t) won’t accept dua’s from a person who’s heart is not toward him(directly without intermediaries), whenever you asked him , move towards him with your heart (with pure intention ,rather than thinking about someone else) and then trust on it’s acceptance. (may Allah (s.w.t) forgive me incase mistakes were made in translation.)

and below hadidh agreed by both sunni and shia.

الدعاء مخ العباده و لایهلك مع الدعاء احد

Baharull anwar , volume 39,page:003,narration no:37

The Prophet once said, “Dua is Ibadah” (Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah, and Abu Dawud).

Prophet said, “Allah is extremely displeased with the person who doesn’t do duaa to Allah” (Tirmidhi).

عن امیرالمؤمنین ـ علیه السّلام ـ: احب الاعمال الی الله - عزوجل - فی الارض الدعاء.

كافی، ج 2، ص 467

still for those who insist on praying to imams, do as you wish, move your qibla direction toward imams tomb , kneel you self , raise your hands , cry for help , beat your self ,and prostrate yourself, make a picture of them and place that in your walls in front of you , fire up the candles and supplicate to them.

and I hope in the day of judgment when you read your book as place before you ,you will have sufficient reasons for your actions and claims.

0017-14 (and We will say to him) “Read your book. Enough are you today to take your own account.”.

My dear brothers and sisters make dua’s towards Allah (s.w.t) only what you will lose if you don’t pray to imams nothing but if this practice is wrong which is indeed what you will gain in the hereafter have you tought about this?Did imam hussien (a.s) did this ? did imam ali (a.s) did this …

003:173. – (that is) those to whom people said, “The people have gathered against you; so, fear them.” It increased them in Faith and they said, “Allah is fully sufficient for us, and the best One in whom to trust.”

0039:38. If you ask them as to who created the heavens and the earth, they will certainly say, “Allah.” Say, “Then, tell me about those whom you invoke other than Allah, if Allah intends to cause some harm to me, are they (able) to remove the harm caused by Him? Or if He intends to bless me with mercy, are they (able) to hold back His mercy (from me)?”

Say, “Allah is sufficient for me. In Him trust those who (rightly) trust (in someone).”

0039:54. Turn passionately towards your Lord, and submit to Him before the punishment comes to you, after which you will not be helped.

Similar to the Christians and paganist who have made various kind of dua’s for Maryam and Eisa (a.s) , and other things the shia’s have made that for the imams, search for it online and you will find the similarities.

To finish up this two aya can suffice and will complete the entire topic. Read different tafsirs and see what is explained of these two ayats , and what does tawakul and full submission to Allah(s.w.t) means in islam.

0014:11. Their prophets said to them, “We are no more than a human being like you, but Allah bestows His favour upon whom He wills from among His servants. It is not for us to bring you an authority without Allah’s permission, and in Allah the believers must place their trust.

0014:12. What is wrong with us that we should not put our trust in Allah when He has guided us to our paths? We shall, of course, endure with patience all your persecutions; and all those who have to trust should trust only in Allah.”

I suggest all who disagree to open Qurhan at least for a moment and ponder on verses I posted, if still not satisfied, someone else could contribute the post.

I don’t see any need for continuation may be moderator can close this post.

May Allah(s.w.t) guide us to the right path , and bring us out of darkness and illuminate the way of guidance for us Ameen.

002: 257. Allah is the Protector of those who believe. He brings them out of the depths of darkness into the light. As for those who disbelieve, their friends are the Rebels. They bring them out from the light into the depths of darkness. Those are people of the Fire. There they will remain forever.

I will finish my post with below duha.

002:286. Allah does not obligate anyone beyond his capacity. For him is what he has earned, and on him what he has incurred. “Our Lord, do not hold us accountable,

if we forget or make a mistake, and, Our Lord, do not place on us such a burden as You have placed on those before us, and, Our Lord, do not make us bear a burden for

which we have no strength. And pardon us, and grant us forgiveness, and have mercy on

us. You are our Lord. So then help us against the disbelieving people.”

.

Regards,

Kaniz e Zahra · May 1, 2012

well bro.khalid Hussaini,i really wonder at kind of replies u made,Y said wt asif bin barkhia did was miracle,then wt do we expct frm Imams,are they not capable of showing miracles?then y Imamate has been given to them,they r so helpless,ca'nt be present everywhere,cant see,nd hear,then y do we create all tht fuss on khilafat,if nauzbillah,they were ordinary like others,Prophet Yaqub didn't believe is as a miracle,did this mention in Quran,how can u tell he did or didn't think this way,just because it doesn't appeal u so u hear wt he was thinking in his heart.wonderful!were Yousaf's brothers were not sufficient to tell their father about their alive brother.Moreover read shia Tafaseer,hazrat Yaqub knew that his son is alive,because the blood shown to him was of wolf not human,on his son's shirt.he used to weep due to seperation,yes we expect every kind of miracles from Imams,if ppl inferior to them can show y cant they???

as far as ur allegation of fabricated Hadees is concerned,wt is the evidence of it being fabricated ot it is enough to say anything which doesn't back up ur ideas,as fabricated,this Hadees is not only mentioned in Shia books but also in sunni books like kanz ul amaal,etc,so both parties had ghaalis who actually got same idea,and the references u have provided,r they authentic,nobody knows which book is sahi jami,its not in sahah e satta even.but it had smthng to give u of ur own choice so its authentic,and wt u quote Hadees,where umar is included,tht ca'nt be fabricated,gr8.if their Noor wasn't present before the inception of universe,then why did Allah reprimand shetaan by saying when he declined to do Sajda,tht wt do u think"u r amongst AALEEN"who were the AALEEN,there who were not bound to do Sajda to Adam,or according to ur theory Allah was also getting emotional,Nauzbillah.as far as Prophet(saww)is concerned he could never make emotional remarks without Allah"command.where it is clearly mentioned,MY MESSENGER DOESN'T STIR HIS LIPS EXCEPT MY COMMAND",let alone emotional speeches.And as u said tht intercession is for qiamah,the Ayaat we mentioned had no reference to Qiamah.If their intercession ca'nt happen in this world that how did Allah send azaab on his creations when He wanted to wait but Prophets were eager for it,so inspite of feeling mercy towards them Allah send azaab on those nations because his loved ones wanted to be so.And what about letter of Imam e ZAMANA(AS)written to sheikh mufeed,in which He clearly stated"no angel of Earth,and Skies can prevent His prayers to be granted",and He shows awareness about his followers.then how is it?now say sheikh mufeed was liar and ghaali,then wt is authenticity of those ulema of present,who r delivering u these new ideologies,ca'nt they be liars,if the most reverred ones were.And for all those Ayaat i have already stated that there were always circumstances for every Ayat,sometimes it was response to jews sometimes for christians sometimes for idol=worshipper,that is tradition of God to keep things in their context.like at places He referred to Two authorities,at some He referred to three.so where He only asked for two,then u'll start denying Imamat,by referring them?always check the context.and do'nt speculate that this intercession means in every Ayat abour hereafter,when it's not mentioned then who are u to make conjectures.U can't dare to look at Sun,creation of Allah without glasses,then how can u reach the Creator without intercessor?if they r helpless after death how the blind,paralyzed,and sick r getting shifa on HOLY SHRINES OF INFALLIBLES(AS)and they r even registered there regularly.Why do'nt Allah use Ka'aba for showing Miracles,though He is capable of doing so.but He want to manifest they r my representatives,connect with them to reach me,otherwise u ca'nt.

i want to complete it on a footnote that whether this world call us ghaalis,mushrik or whatever,even including so-called Shias call us so WE LIVE FOR ALI(AS)AND INSHA Allah WILL DIE FOR ALI(AS)

**Haydar Husayn** · May 1, 2012

Assalam o Alaikum,well this is my first day at shia chat,and m really astonished to see,that this day was to be seen yet when shias will turn their tongues,nd hands against ALI(AS)first of all do u ppl only read portion of Quran that molvis referred u to,plzzz don't be biased in regards of ALI(AS)our faith is nothing without him,anyways that was the formal request now let me come to the point,first i also want to quote verses as ur reply

Nobody is turning against Ali (as). Just because someone doesn't hold exaggerated beliefs about him, it doesn't mean they are against him.

tell me honestly read any Tafseer and see what Imam have to say about 'NAMES'Allah has referred to in Surah e Baqra,which HE teach to ADAM,and these were the names which made him suprior to satan and angels,What great worshippers they were still they had to bow before Adam who haven't offered a single salat yet.When just familiarity with their names can make Adam laiq e SAJDA,what WOULD BE THEY THEMSELVES???

I think you have misunderstood something. The angels didn't prostrate before Adam (as) because he knew the names, they prostrated because Allah (swt) ordered them to. Neither was it knowledge of those names that made Adam (as) superior to angels. Knowledge of those names was simply a proof of his superiority,

You shouldn't think that those 'names' were simply the names of the Prophet (pbuh) and the Imams (as) though, although those may have been part of it. Referring to a Shia tafsir, as you request, we find:

Tafsir al-Mizan

In the same book [At-Tafsir, al-'Ayyashi], Abu'l-'Abbas is quoted as saying that he asked Abu 'Abdillah (a.s.) about the words of Allah, And He taught Adam the names, all of them, (and enquired) as to what Allah had taught him. (The lmam) said: "The earths, the mountains, the canyons and the valleys." Then he looked at the rug which he sat upon and said: "And this rug is among the things which He taught him." It is reported in the same book that al-Fudayl ibn al-Abbas asked Abu 'Abddlah (a.s.) what were the names which Allah taught Adam. He replied: "The names of the valleys and the vegetables and the trees and the mountains of the earth."

The same book narrates from Dawud ibn Sarhan al -Attar that he said: "I was with Abu 'Abdillah (a.s.); he called for the table - spread and we took our meals. Then he called for the washbowl and hand-towel. I said to him: 'May I be your ransom! The words of Allah: And He taught Adam the names, all of them - was (this) wash-bowl and hand-towel among them?' He (a.s.) said: 'The mountain-passes and the valleys.' Saying this he pointed by his hand this and that way." As-Sadiq (a.s.) said: "Verily, Allah taught Adam the names of His proofs, all of them; then He presented them - and they were the spirits - to the angels, and said: 'Tell Me the names of these if you are right in your claims that you have more right, than Adam, to the vicegerency in the earth because of your glorifying and extolling (Me).' They said: 'Glory be to Thee! we have no knowledge but that which Thou hast taught us; surely Thou, Thou (alone), art the Knowing, the Wise.' Allah, Blessed and High is He! said: 'O Adam! inform them of their names.' When he informed them of their names, they knew of their (i.e. those spirits) high rank before Allah, Great is His name! They realized that they (i.e. those spirits) were more deserving to be the vicegerents of Allah in His earth, and (to be) His proofs over His creatures. Then Allah removed them (the spirits) from their sight, and subjugated them with their (i.e. those spirits) obedience an d love; and told them, 'Did I not say to you that I surely know the unseen (secrets) of the heavens and the earth and (that) I know what you manifest and what you were hiding?'" (Ma'ani 'l-akhbar)

you insist on evidence from Imams again and again,look at their Explanations of those AYAAT as you mentioned,they have clearly elaborated the reasons of revealations of those VERSES,they targeted certain occasions and ppl,mostly pagans,or hypocrites.

Oh really? Then how come the Imams (as) used those verses to refute ghulat during their time? For example:

And it is related from Zurara that he said: I said to Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq that a man from among the descendants of Abdu'l-lah b. Saba' is a believer in (the doctrine of) delegation (tafwid). And he said: And what is tafwid? I (Zurara) said: According to him Allah, the Mighty and Glorious, (in the first instance) created Muhammad and 'Ali, and then delegated the matter (of creation) to them, and these two created and gave sustenance, and caused life and death. The Imam said: He, the enemy of Allah, has lied. When you return to him recite to him the verse of the Chapter of The Thunder: "Or assign they unto Allah partners who created the like of His creation so that the creation (which they made and His creation) seemed alike to them? Say: Allah is the Creator of all things, and He is the One, the Almighty" [13:16]. Then I went to the man and informed him of what Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq had said: And he became as if I had forced him to swallow stones or as though he were struck dumb.

Are they not clear enough proofs,if u r really not biased then u will agree,otherwise its ur matter and plzzz dn't provide me repeated illusions,and self drawn meanings of Ayaat,nor fabricated AHADEES,as PROPHET(SAWW)SAYS DON'T ACCEPT ANY WORDS ATTRIBUTED TOWARDS ME IF THEY CLASH WITH QURAN.This is more authentic way of judging Hadees than ilm ul Rijaal even.

I think you should take your own advice. The Quran is rather clear on this matter, but you are using all kinds of twisted logic and dubious ahadith to try to avoid the clear meaning of the Quran.

Kaniz e Zahra · May 1, 2012

well according to u im using twisting logic,and dubious Hadees,can u prove them dubious,or only that Hadees is relible which says Prophet(saww)can hear outside his Grave,and not from so far,where does Quran verify this idea,When door was fell on Janab e Syeda(as)She at numerous times called her Father,was It shirk nauzbillah?This is mentioned in Sulaym bin qays hilali book,which u can't call zaeef,as it has been endorsed by Imam Sadiq(as)by these words,that who don't keep this book is unaware of our affairs.As far as that riwayt which u quoted as a refutation of creation of Ahlebait(as)before universe,then please put some light on who AL-AALEEN were there?or Allah was just giving a shot in air(nauzbillah)that is lowering the status of Tauheed to underestimate his Words,this riwayt of urs is clearly going against Quranic logic,so must be fabricated.In Surah e Feel,Allah has addressed his Prophet(saww)with the referrence of destruction of abraha's army that"didn't u see that"was Prophet(saww)born at the time of this incident,then how was He watching it?and if u say that Imams did this and that to counter ghullat.then wt abt tht Sermon of Maula Ali(as)in which He states His powers,now call it zaeef it was compiled by Syed Razi in Nehj ul Balagha,was syed Razi ghaali?aur He didn't know how to check validity,only today's fake ulema,and u know this art.sorry when u couldn't bring logic,then u alleged someone with twisting words,though mine were very clear straightforward referrences,it's actually going against Ali(as)how can u prove him Imam,if our most authentic ulema were ghaali,other traditions regarding his khilafat can also be declared zaeef according to your logic,He didn't have any powers,then for which thing He was made Imam.If He can;t hear,and know what is not visible,then nauzbillah,such person can make error,then How is He infallible?He used to decide cases in the time of umar on the basis of His knowledge of Ghaib.why muslims called Prophet(saww)is all ear,and ear,in Surah tauba,when they can't hear everything.May Allah show you guidancethere are endless Verses,Ahadees,and sayings of Infallibles,which can;t be quoted in whole of this thousands of posts.,.

Kaniz e Zahra · May 1, 2012

one more clarification,Imam Ali(as)'s powers are not independent of Allah Almighty,they are His manifestations.Imam can't create with their segregated powers,but their pleasure,and intercession influence Allah's commands,because He love them more than anything else.as in sheikh SADOOQ has written in akmaal ul deen,how Hazrat Idrees(as)insisted on keeping His ppl under famine,when Allah wanted to lift it,but He didn't do so untill Idrees(as)was pleased to do so.the best example is that when we move our hands we say our hand is moving but in actual it is controlled by brain,and can't move without its command,but wish comes in Heart not brain,so When Hearts of AAIMA(AS)wish something,Allah as a brain deliver command,and they with powers granted by Him execute that command by acting like Hands,foot,or other bodyparts.I think i have spend enough effort to make concept clear,whether somebody admit or not.

**Haydar Husayn** · May 2, 2012

well according to u im using twisting logic,and dubious Hadees,can u prove them dubious,or only that Hadees is relible which says Prophet(saww)can hear outside his Grave,and not from so far,where does Quran verify this idea,

The Qur'an doesn't need to verifiy it, it just musn't contradict it, which it doesn't. However, the following verses could perhaps be said to apply to this situation:

He causes the night to enter in upon the day, and He causes the day to enter in upon the night, and He has made subservient (to you) the sun and the moon; each one follows its course to an appointed time; this is Allah, your Lord, His is the kingdom; and those whom you call upon besides Him do not control a straw. If you call on them they shall not hear your call, and even if they could hear they shall not answer you; and on the resurrection day they will deny your associating them (with Allah); and none can inform you like the One Who is Aware. [35:13-14]

When door was fell on Janab e Syeda(as)She at numerous times called her Father,was It shirk nauzbillah?

Assuming for a second that the narration is reliable (and there are narrations where she says that she will complain to her father about Abu Bakr and Umar, which implies that her father isn't aware of what is going on at the time), do you think she was really calling for her father to help her? Or was it just a cry of distress?

This is mentioned in Sulaym bin qays hilali book,which u can't call zaeef,as it has been endorsed by Imam Sadiq(as)by these words,that who don't keep this book is unaware of our affairs.

Actually, there are major question marks over that book (to put it mildly). The narration you are talking about was supposedly found my Majlisi many centuries later, with no isnad attached to it. For a discussion on the authenticity of the book, read these threads:

As far as that riwayt which u quoted as a refutation of creation of Ahlebait(as)before universe,then please put some light on who AL-AALEEN were there?or Allah was just giving a shot in air(nauzbillah)that is lowering the status of Tauheed to underestimate his Words,this riwayt of urs is clearly going against Quranic logic,so must be fabricated.

You will need to bring some authentic narrations proving that Allah (swt) was referring to the Prophet (pbuh) and his Ahlulbayt (as) when he is said 'al-aaleen'. Because to me, it doesn't make much sense that Allah would give a direct order to someone, who doesn't obey, and then Allah asks him "why did you no obey? are you one of the al-aaleen?", which would imply that the al-aaleen wouldn't obey a direct order from Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì. So are you saying that if Allah (swt) ordered the Prophet (pbuh) to prostrate to Adam, then he wouldn't do it?

In Surah e Feel,Allah has addressed his Prophet(saww)with the referrence of destruction of abraha's army that"didn't u see that"was Prophet(saww)born at the time of this incident,then how was He watching it?

Who said that this was addressed to the Prophet (pbuh)? It makes much more sense for it to be addressed to the Quraysh.

and if u say that Imams did this and that to counter ghullat.then wt abt tht Sermon of Maula Ali(as)in which He states His powers,now call it zaeef it was compiled by Syed Razi in Nehj ul Balagha,was syed Razi ghaali?aur He didn't know how to check validity,

Imam Ali (as) says nothing about having powers like those attributed to him by people nowadays. And yes, there are some non-authentic things in Nahjul Balagha.

only today's fake ulema,and u know this art.

Actually, today's scholars probably accept more narrations than the ancient scholars when it comes to aqeedah. I'm sure you have more in common in your beliefs with almost any modern marja than you would with Shaykh Saduq or Shaykh Mufeed.

sorry when u couldn't bring logic,then u alleged someone with twisting words,though mine were very clear straightforward referrences,it's actually going against Ali(as)how can u prove him Imam,if our most authentic ulema were ghaali,other traditions regarding his khilafat can also be declared zaeef according to your logic,He didn't have any powers,then for which thing He was made Imam.If He can;t hear,and know what is not visible,then nauzbillah,such person can make error,then How is He infallible?He used to decide cases in the time of umar on the basis of His knowledge of Ghaib.why muslims called Prophet(saww)is all ear,and ear,in Surah tauba,when they can't hear everything.May Allah show you guidancethere are endless Verses,Ahadees,and sayings of Infallibles,which can;t be quoted in whole of this thousands of posts.,.

You have some major misunderstandings about a lot of things, which unfortunately I don't have time to correct right now. Maybe later.

One quick point though, if the Prophet (pbuh) knew everything, and heard everything, then how do you explain this?

And from among those who are round about you of the dwellers of the desert there are hypocrites, and from among the people of Medina (also); they are stubborn in hypocrisy; you do not know them; We know them; We will chastise them twice then shall they be turned back to a grievous chastisement [9:101]

Kaniz e Zahra · May 2, 2012

well u haven't bring single substantial point.if Quran doesn;t need to verify it according to your knowledge,it mustn't contradict,but verification isn't required,wow,i suspect ur dubious admiration for Tauheed,u doesn't bother to consider any of Allah's word.Allah says,"that knowledge of everykind is saved in Quran"then there is always Nas e Qurani present for everything.and what is the guarntee of your newly found hadees being authentic,which eminent scholar endorse it,and mind it i've said eminent not anyone.Today's ulema have bcm more expert in ilm ul rijaal,wt a fun,that all the information about narrators,and narrations passed on them by older ones,so they were unable to get benefited from?and how can u say modern alim is more efficient any Marja confirmed this statement,or that is wt u think,and remember"qiyas is haraam"in our fiqh.The rules u expect from others to follow doesn't follow urselves,and keep adding ur conjectures.what is your proof that some of the Nehj ul balagha is zaeef,i don't like repitition but i have to say again was Syed Razi ghaali,who added such khutba which is manifesting Divinely powers of Ali(as)by himself.And all the other ghaali ulema kept sleeping for centuries,and suddenly wake up in this one to refute it.if our ulema were so weak,couldn't verify any thing,then what is the authenticity of other Shia aqaid in ur eyes,wts their guarantee,by the way whats a proof of it's being zaeef,u keep declaring things zaeef without any authority.Prominent scholars are agreed on the sanad and narration of Imam Ali(as)'s claim SALONI SALONI MUN QABL TAFTADUNI"ASK WHATEVER U WANT BEFORE I DEPART FROM THIS WORLD.He said it 14TIMES,with Ma[Edited Out]ar sanad,and verification,neither old ones refused it nor the new ones,except the handful of ppl,whose own authentocities are suspected.does it shows lack of Knowledge of invisible???how did He judge cases in times of umar which required ilm e ghaib.

AS FAR AS thier being AL-AALEEN is concerned,how can u refute it's not for them.Does Quran leave things ambigous?Aaleen didn't disobey every person with some common sense can understand they were exempted from Sajda to Adam.because they were superior to Him.or else can they be why don't u tell??was Jesus or Moses present there and not the Most superior of Prophets?

Kaniz e Zahra · May 2, 2012

as calling of Bibi Syeda(as)is concerned,she was making Her father witness for Her sufferiings,not calling for help,because thet have to maintain SABR.she wasn;t merely calling as a child in distress,then why didn't She call her mother,being a child in distress,the reason is this was the ummat of Her father,not of mother so she wanted to show him.

and the Ayat u referred to that dead can't hear anything,how can be applied to Prophet(saww)and Ali(as),were they already dead??funny idea. so Allah was referring some other dead ones,of pagans,don't compare them with Masoomeen(as).u didn't mention was sheikh mufeed ghaali,He mentions a content of letter of Imam e ZAMANA(AS)in which He was telling His powers,now say zaeef,okay then y did ghaali,allama Majlisi copied that,no alim objected that,how?wt was zaeef in bihar ul anwaar like story of Jazeera khizra,Allama majlisi copied it another section saying that it's not reliable tradition.do u think everyone on shia chat is jahil?they haven't read anything.?ur ideologies question the role of Imamat,and u don't have time,we r only idle ppl.

And where Allah said to His Prophet(saww)that u know not we know,obviously Prophet(saww)couldn't have ilm e ghaib if it wasn't granted by Allah,His knowledge wasn't independent of Him,that is what was desired to make clear in ppl's mind.One verse never contradicts other,y Surah Tauba says,people called him EAR AND EAR,when is knowledge is limited,how can one know when it comes active,and when is unactivated.Nauz Billah.

Kaniz e Zahra · May 2, 2012

and why Bibi Syeda(as)said that She will complain to her father,that is wt u said,Yes Her Father was watching everything,but Bibi couldn't get consolation in His physical presence,so She wanted to complain in hereafter,obviously Her father wasn't there to comfort her physically,and She wanted to complain before presence of Allah,why do we say we will return to Allah after death,isn't he everywhere.Don't we say we shall complain in hereafter doesn't Allah know everything.?

justthinking · May 10, 2012

My understanding is that if someone calls on Muhammad Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã, or Ali (a.s) or any of the Ahlul Bayt with the intention that they will personally help, independent from Allah then this would be considered wrong.

However, my understanding of the Shia concept of Tawassul is that we do not call upon them with this notion.

Rather we call upon them because they are the most loved to Allah, and Allah is more likely to help us if they pray to Him on our behalf.

When I say Ya Ali, I know that Ali (a.s) is not independent of Allah. But if Hazrat Ali (a.s) beseeches Allah on my behalf, his prayer is more powerful than mine and Allah may decide to help because of Hazrat Ali's (a.s) prayer to him.

For example, if you read Dua Kumail, or the Duas in Sahiffiya Sadjaddiya in fact any of the duas narrated by the Ahlul Bait, you will see how they supplicated to Allah.

These dua's are truly beautiful, heart breaking, and all the more remarkable because they didn't rehearse these prayers, this is naturally how they spoke to Allah.

I know that I could never ever come up with a dua like that to beseech Allah.

So yes, I can ask Allah directly and maybe Allah will grant my supplication - but my supplication is deficient, my heart is not pure - I cannot plead and beg Allah in the same way as the Ahlul Bait (a.s) can.

For example:

Say I'm trying desperately to get into medical school. There are lots of people who have done the work neccessary, completed their studies and maybe even acheived higher grades than me.

Everyone is asking for the admissions tutor to see their application.

But if I become friends with the secretary, and ask him to specifically put my application in front of the admissions tutor for approval, then the secretary who is close to the admissions tutor will make an effort and put in a good word for me.

Then it is up to the admissions tutor to decide whether he will accept my request or not.

I'm not asking the secretary because I think he has any seperate power, but I'm asking the secretary because I know they can help put special attention on my application to the admissions tutor.

The Medical school has its procedure - do your studies, achieve your grade, apply, and then wait for the response.

Similarly, Islam has its procedure - believe in tawheed, perform your prayers, pay your charity, go on hajj and so on.

Your argument that everyone should only do the procedure and leave it at that.

But I know, that my tawheed is not as perfect as it could be, when I perform my prayers, they are not as good as they could be, my fast is not as perfect as I want it to be. In terms of a grade, maybe I'm only getting an E or a D or C instead of an A.

The people who are successful are always the people who use the tools at their disposal - prayer, fasting , hajj etc are tools for me to become close to Allah.

Likewise, tawassul is a tool for the same purpose.

And since I know that Muhammad (sawaws) and his Ahlul Bait (a.s) are the closest to Allah, then if I get to know them and love them, then maybe they can help put my application in front of Allah in the most beautiful way.

When I go through the Ahlul Bait, It's like my prayer is giftwrapped before being presented to Allah.

***

On a side note, to say that Muhammad or the Ahlul Bait cannot hear ones prayer because their bodies are physically dead is not acceptable to me.

The Quran says that those killed in the way of Allah are not dead, they are alive and receive sustenence from their Lord.

If anyone died or was killed in the way of Allah, then Muhammad (sawas) and his Ahlul Bait (a.s) are the foremost of them.

In the physical world our hearing is limited by distance. If a person is far away from you, your ears cannot hear him anymore.

Prayer that comes from the heart is not physical speech - prayer that originates from the heart is spiritual in nature, and the spiritual world has a different set of laws which are different to the physics of sound waves, molecules or atoms.

To prove the case in point, Iblis is only one, but he hears what everyone is saying and thinking - not only that, but he can even influence every human being at the same time.

The angel of death similarly has the power to take the spirit of everyone even at the same time if that is what Allah wants.

The point here is to clarify that in the spiritual world, the laws are different from our physical laws.

Once a person leaves the physical, material world, they are no longer bound by the limits of time and space.

***

I believe from my research and understanding, that Muhammad (sawas) and his Ahlul Bait (a.s) are alive, and I believe that they can hear me - not because they are divine - but in the same way he has granted that same power to his Angels, he has granted it to Muhammad who is higher than the Angels. This is a Mercy from Allah.

Furthermore, I believe that if I go through Muhammad (sawas) and his Ahlul Bait (a.s) they will put my my call to Allah in the most beautiful way.

And I believe that it is only Allah who will then decide whether or not to grant my request.

***

Shirk is putting partners to Allah.

Tawassul does not make anyone a partner to Allah.

If you believe that Muhammad (sawas) and his Ahlul Bait (a.s) cannot hear you, or intercede for you, and you don't need them to pray for you because it is shirk, then that's your belief and you are entitled to it. Good luck my friend.

**Haydar Husayn** · May 10, 2012

My understanding is that if someone calls on Muhammad صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم, or Ali (a.s) or any of the Ahlul Bayt with the intention that they will personally help, independent from Allah then this would be considered wrong.
However, my understanding of the Shia concept of Tawassul is that we do not call upon them with this notion.

Many people believe in this too. What they say is it's fine as long as you don't believe their power is independent of Allah's.

Rather we call upon them because they are the most loved to Allah, and Allah is more likely to help us if they pray to Him on our behalf.

Did you read the ayats quoted in this thread? They all say don't call on other than Allah, not "make sure you don't think the person you are calling upon is independent of Allah.

Read these two ayats very carefully:

And they serve beside Allah what can neither harm them nor profit them, and they say: These are our intercessors with Allah. Say: Do you (presume to) inform Allah of what He knows not in the heavens and the earth? Glory be to Him, and supremely exalted is He above what they set up (with Him). [Qur'an 10:18, Shakir translation]

Now, surely, sincere obedience is due to Allah (alone) and (as for) those who take guardians besides Him, (saying), We do not serve them save that they may make us nearer to Allah, surely Allah will judge between them in that in which they differ; surely Allah does not guide him aright who is a liar, ungrateful. [Qur'an 39:3, Shakir translation]

When I say Ya Ali, I know that Ali (a.s) is not independent of Allah. But if Hazrat Ali (a.s) beseeches Allah on my behalf, his prayer is more powerful than mine and Allah may decide to help because of Hazrat Ali's (a.s) prayer to him.

So why not say "Ya Ali beseeach Allah on my behalf" then? Why just "Ya Ali", or "Ya Ali madad".

For example, if you read Dua Kumail, or the Duas in Sahiffiya Sadjaddiya in fact any of the duas narrated by the Ahlul Bait, you will see how they supplicated to Allah.

Yes, and it's worth noting that Imam Ali (as) didn't supplicate to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), and Imam Zayn ul-Abideen (as) didn't supplicate to Imam Ali (as). Surely if this was something we were all meant to be doing, then they could have set the example.

So yes, I can ask Allah directly and maybe Allah will grant my supplication - but my supplication is deficient, my heart is not pure - I cannot plead and beg Allah in the same way as the Ahlul Bait (a.s) can.

Where do you get this concept that you need to have a pure heart for Allah to answer your prayer? There is no 'maybe' about this. Allah hears our prayers, and answers them.

And when My servants ask you concerning Me, then surely I am very near; I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he calls on Me, so they should answer My call and believe in Me that they may walk in the right way. [2:186]

In the Qur'an, Allah (swt) says he even answered the prayers of the kuffar:

And when affliction touches a man, he calls on Us, whether lying on his side or sitting or standing; but when We remove his affliction from him, he passes on as though he had never called on Us on account of an affliction that touched him; thus that which they do is made fair-seeming to the extravagant. [10:12]

He it is Who makes you travel by land and sea; until when you are in the ships, and they sail on with them in a pleasant breeze, and they rejoice, a violent wind overtakes them and the billows surge in on them from all sides, and they become certain that they are encompassed about, they pray to Allah, being sincere to Him in obedience: If Thou dost deliver us from this, we will most certainly be of the grateful ones. Yet when He hath delivered them, behold! they rebel in the earth wrongfully. O mankind! Your rebellion is only against yourselves. (Ye have) enjoyment of the life of the world; then unto Us is your return and We shall proclaim unto you what ye used to do. [10:22-23]

For example:
Say I'm trying desperately to get into medical school. There are lots of people who have done the work neccessary, completed their studies and maybe even acheived higher grades than me.
Everyone is asking for the admissions tutor to see their application.
But if I become friends with the secretary, and ask him to specifically put my application in front of the admissions tutor for approval, then the secretary who is close to the admissions tutor will make an effort and put in a good word for me.
Then it is up to the admissions tutor to decide whether he will accept my request or not.
I'm not asking the secretary because I think he has any seperate power, but I'm asking the secretary because I know they can help put special attention on my application to the admissions tutor.

Yes, but why go to the secretary, when you have direct access to the admissions tutor? Seems a bit illogical to me.

The Medical school has its procedure - do your studies, achieve your grade, apply, and then wait for the response.
Similarly, Islam has its procedure - believe in tawheed, perform your prayers, pay your charity, go on hajj and so on.
Your argument that everyone should only do the procedure and leave it at that.
But I know, that my tawheed is not as perfect as it could be, when I perform my prayers, they are not as good as they could be, my fast is not as perfect as I want it to be. In terms of a grade, maybe I'm only getting an E or a D or C instead of an A.
The people who are successful are always the people who use the tools at their disposal - prayer, fasting , hajj etc are tools for me to become close to Allah.
Likewise, tawassul is a tool for the same purpose.

Maybe you should work on improving your tawheed, prayer, fasting, and going on hajj, instead of looking for shortcuts. As for the best tool for becoming close to Allah, this is what Imam Ali (as) says it is:

Nahjul Balagha, Sermon 109

The best means by which seekers of nearness to Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, seek nearness, is the belief in Him and His Prophet, fighting in His cause, for it is the high pinnacle of Islam, and (to believe) in the kalimatu'l-'ikhlas (the expression of Divine purification) for it is just nature and the establishment of prayer for it is (the basis of) community, payment of zakat (Islamic tax) for it is a compulsory obligation, fasting for the month of Ramadan for it is the shield against chastisement, the performance of hajj of the House of Allah (i. e . Ka`bah) and its `umrah (other than annual visit) for these two acts banish poverty and wash away sins, regard for kinship for it increases wealth and length of life, to giving alms secretly for it covers shortcomings, giving alms openly for it protects against a bad death and extending benefits (to people) for it saves from positions of disgrace.

Nothing here about calling on other than Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, and note that he says this is the best way of seeking nearness to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì.

And since I know that Muhammad (sawaws) and his Ahlul Bait (a.s) are the closest to Allah, then if I get to know them and love them, then maybe they can help put my application in front of Allah in the most beautiful way.
When I go through the Ahlul Bait, It's like my prayer is giftwrapped before being presented to Allah.

And you get all this from where exactly? Because the Prophet (pbuh) and the Imams (as) certainly never said any of this.

On a side note, to say that Muhammad or the Ahlul Bait cannot hear ones prayer because their bodies are physically dead is not acceptable to me.
The Quran says that those killed in the way of Allah are not dead, they are alive and receive sustenence from their Lord.
If anyone died or was killed in the way of Allah, then Muhammad (sawas) and his Ahlul Bait (a.s) are the foremost of them.

Nobody said that they can't hear because they are physically dead. This is a common strawman argument used by people who are itching to quote ayah 2:154 or 3:169. However, this is completely besides the point. I'm alive now, but that doesn't mean I can hear someone who tries to talk to me from another city. What needs to be proven is that they have this power to hear you from anywhere, not that they are simply alive. However, the hadiths seem to go against this belief, as discussed in the thread

In the physical world our hearing is limited by distance. If a person is far away from you, your ears cannot hear him anymore.
Prayer that comes from the heart is not physical speech - prayer that originates from the heart is spiritual in nature, and the spiritual world has a different set of laws which are different to the physics of sound waves, molecules or atoms.

And where did you find out what the laws of the spiritual world are?

To prove the case in point, Iblis is only one, but he hears what everyone is saying and thinking - not only that, but he can even influence every human being at the same time.

I could be wrong, but my understanding is that Iblees has an army of shaytans that work for him, and that he in fact doesn't do everything. Whatever the case, even if he had such a power, this doesn't prove that the Imams (as) have it too. He has his role, and they have their role.

The angel of death similarly has the power to take the spirit of everyone even at the same time if that is what Allah wants.

Yes, if Allah wants. Where is the evidence that He wants the Prophet (pbuh) and the Imams (as) to be all-hearing?

Shirk is putting partners to Allah.

from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: I said to him: Verily these `awamm claim that shirk is more obscure than the creeping of the ant in a dark night upon the black haircloth. So he said: The servant is not a mushrik until he prays to other than Allah, or slaughters (an animal) for other than Allah, or supplicates to other than Allah `azza wa jalla.

If you supplicate to other than Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, then that is shirk, regardless of whether or not you think the person you are supplicating to is independent of Him or not.

Fatima Hussain · May 10, 2012

I am wondering then...What would be the opinion on Ismailis invoking the help of the Aga Khan since Aga Khan is alive on this earth?

justthinking · May 10, 2012

"If you supplicate to other than Allah سبحانه وتعالى, then that is shirk, regardless of whether or not you think the person you are supplicating to is independent of Him or not."

Shirk is when something or someone is worshipped in place of Allah, or placed next to Allah.

The concept of supplication or intercession is not classified as shirk.

Kaniz e Zahra · May 10, 2012

I am wondering then...What would be the opinion on Ismailis invoking the help of the Aga Khan since Aga Khan is alive on this earth?

Aga khan isn't appointed by Allah,or do u recognise him so,?comparison of His true vicegerents,with self created ones is insanity infact.

Fatima Hussain · May 10, 2012

Aga khan isn't appointed by Allah,or do u recognise him so,?comparison of His true vicegerents,with self created ones is insanity infact.

I'm not Ismaili.

Kaniz e Zahra · May 11, 2012

Well the same things getting discussed on other thread of Ya Ali(as)Madad,can't bother everywhere.

anwark · May 11, 2012

ya ali madad

Kaniz e Zahra · May 12, 2012

ya ali madad

PEER MAULA ALI(AS)MADAD

dhiya_kalbi · June 2, 2012

salaam;

you can ask for help only from whom he can hear you and do something for you. Dead people cant hear and do anything, tell me simple reason why people are burried if they can still do something should not be burryin them right, keep those right thr without burrying them.no body does that

Allah is all knowing and all hearing and control over everything. Now to say that if someone sitting in usa whispers(not loud) o ali help me; now now now a man burried 1300 years before he can still hear words and minds of trillions people on planet and makes a decission and replies them, this is what is shirk. This is the power of Allah alone he hears and answers everyone prayers. Intercession is shirk save yourself by repenting to Allah he most merciful n most gracious . Inshallah you will be on right path

dhiya_kalbi · June 6, 2012

salaam;wow no replies no comments..

Al hamdo lillah.

Qul jaa-al-haqqu wa zahaqal baatil in-nal baatila kaana zahuuqa

Kaniz e Zahra · June 9, 2012

salaam;wow no replies no comments..
Al hamdo lillah.
Qul jaa-al-haqqu wa zahaqal baatil in-nal baatila kaana zahuuqa

Hey man if nobody had a chance to read your irrational reply that doesn't mean no one can reply,first point you raised,

Whats the ponit of burying something if it can be still beneficial?

Ok tell me then how a seed benefit you,don't you bury the seed in Earth ,and it gives you back life in form of fruits,and vegetables,so how a dead,buried seed nourishes you?

As for Imam Ali(as) handling billion of people,though i am tired of repeating same stuff,but can you describe how iblees function to deviate billions of people? do you have some vague idea of his method of work?

When representative of vice can be so powerful,was it suitable for Allah's Justice to keep representative of virtue less powerful?

In Surah ul Naas you seek refuge from his whispers,but our whispers can reach Ali(as) that appears doubtful to you?

It's upto you if you put more belief in powers of shetaan then its your choice,but we are neither follower of batil as you quoted an Ayat on us,nor we need to shift to right path as we already following Siraate Mustaqeem,which is Ali(as).

This Ayat will be animated to life when our Imam(as) will come inshAllah and will teach you what is Haq and what is Baatil,and what is going to be Ghalib inshAllah,you will know soon.

Edited June 9, 2012 by Kaniz e Zahra

dhiya_kalbi · June 9, 2012

every human has one shaitan and one angel with him. shaitan is not one, no one believes shaitan is only one(jinn) (i dont know if shias belive the same).

AL-Kahf(50)

Behold! We said to the angels, "Bow down to Adam": They bowed down except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord. Will ye then take him(iblis) and his progeny as protectors rather than Me? And they are enemies to you! Evil would be the exchange for the wrong-doers!

my question still stands how is Ali ibn Abu Talib (ra) who is dead(seeds are not dead like dead human-they reproduce in physical which can be seen with naked eyes) since 1400 years has ability to listen and reply to every one prayer's. This is the Power of Allah Alone who who listen to all and decides according to their capability(needs) and gives them by his Grace.

dhiya_kalbi · June 10, 2012

And your Lord says, "Call upon Me; I will respond to you." Indeed, those who disdain My worship will enter Hell [rendered] contemptible. Surah Ghafir:60

Here Allah says Dua is worship. i ask you do u agree with Allah, if you dont answer yes then you are not at all worthy of replying. Repent to Allah he is most merciful and gracious

muhibb-ali · June 10, 2012

Salam

every human has one shaitan and one angel with him. shaitan is not one, no one believes shaitan is only one(jinn) (i dont know if shias belive the same).
AL-Kahf(50)
Behold! We said to the angels, "Bow down to Adam": They bowed down except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord. Will ye then take him(iblis) and his progeny as protectors rather than Me? And they are enemies to you! Evil would be the exchange for the wrong-doers!

The main Satan 'Iblees' can see all the people as per the Holy Quran:

يَا بَنِي آدَمَ لَا يَفْتِنَنَّكُمُ الشَّيْطَانُ كَمَا أَخْرَجَ أَبَوَيْكُم مِّنَ الْجَنَّةِ يَنزِعُ عَنْهُمَا لِبَاسَهُمَا لِيُرِيَهُمَا سَوْآتِهِمَا ۗ إِنَّهُ يَرَاكُمْ هُوَ وَقَبِيلُهُ مِنْ حَيْثُ لَا تَرَوْنَهُمْ ۗ إِنَّا جَعَلْنَا الشَّيَاطِينَ أَوْلِيَاءَ لِلَّذِينَ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ

O ye Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as He got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment, to expose their shame: for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see them: We made the evil ones friends (only) to those without faith.

[Quran, 7:27]

So as per the above verse the Satan along with his tribe watches all the Bani Adam. So Satan is watching over you and me too.

my question still stands how is Ali ibn Abu Talib (ra) who is dead(seeds are not dead like dead human-they reproduce in physical which can be seen with naked eyes) since 1400 years has ability to listen and reply to every one prayer's. This is the Power of Allah Alone who who listen to all and decides according to their capability(needs) and gives them by his Grace.

Read this following narrations:

Imam Ali (as) said:

يموت من مات منا و ليس بميت و يبقى من بقي منا

"..The One who Dies among us does not die (actually) and will remain.."

[source: Basair Ad-darajat Pg 275]

Imam Ali (as) said:

عَنْ خَاتَمِ النَّبِيِّينَ ص إِنَّهُ يَمُوتُ مَنْ مَاتَ مِنَّا وَ لَيْسَ بِمَيِّتٍ وَ يَبْلَى مَنْ بَلِيَ مِنَّا وَ لَيْسَ بِبَال

"From the Last of the Prophets (saww) who said, "He who dies from among us is not dead and he who decays from among us does not really decay."

[source: Nahjul Balagha Sermon: 87]

http://www.marefatea...he-ahlulbait-as

Edited June 10, 2012 by muhibb-ali

fightingsoul001 · June 10, 2012

salaam;
you can ask for help only from whom he can hear you and do something for you. Dead people cant hear and do anything, tell me simple reason why people are burried if they can still do something should not be burryin them right, keep those right thr without burrying them.no body does that
Allah is all knowing and all hearing and control over everything. Now to say that if someone sitting in usa whispers(not loud) o ali help me; now now now a man burried 1300 years before he can still hear words and minds of trillions people on planet and makes a decission and replies them, this is what is shirk. This is the power of Allah alone he hears and answers everyone prayers. Intercession is shirk save yourself by repenting to Allah he most merciful n most gracious . Inshallah you will be on right path

In your mind Allah has only such weak powers. I doubt your Iman because in next few years Americans will achieve these powers. Or I think they already have and working on other powers too.

Your god is weaker than America right now. Do something for your faith. Or you will very easily fall prey to dajjal fitna. Dajjal will have much highier powers than what you have mentioned. It means will you pray dajjal after his appearance.

Allah is much much greater than your small thinking. Power which you have mentioned can even be given trillion of people and it would have no effect on his greatness. For my Allah these things are nothing.

Edited June 10, 2012 by fightingsoul001

**Haydar Husayn** · June 10, 2012

In your mind Allah has only such weak powers. I doubt your Iman because in next few years Americans will achieve these powers. Or I think they already have and working on other powers too.
Your god is weaker than America right now. Do something for your faith. Or you will very easily fall prey to dajjal fitna.

How does what he said imply Allah has weak powers?

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