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In the Name of God بسم الله
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Haydar Husayn

Calling On Other Than Allah In The Quran

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^ ^ @ HH: has got to be the silliest post I have ever seen from you...

The verses I provided were also clear, why did u demand a tafseer for them???

further more, its silly to say that the Prophet (pbuh) would be over whelmed by ppl asking him as to ask Allah (aj) for forgiveness as ppl dont ask for forgiveness 24/7 furthermore im sure u would be esteemed to be in his presence anyways and wouldnt be an everyday thing, basically u are providing a logistical issue which is more then hilarious.

Lastly, where did u come this conclusion that only if u wronged him, u need to seek forgiveness from him??? Thats a different issue, what I am saying is that the Prophet (pbuh) can ask Allah (aj) on your behalf for Allah (aj) to forgive your sins.

(bismillah)

063.005

YUSUFALI: And when it is said to them, "Come, the Messenger of Allah will pray for your forgiveness", they turn aside their heads, and thou wouldst see them turning away their faces in arrogance.

PICKTHAL: And when it is said unto them: Come! The messenger of Allah will ask forgiveness for you! they avert their faces and thou seest them turning away, disdainful.

SHAKIR: And when it is said to them: Come, the Messenger of Allah will ask forgiveness for you, they turn back their heads and you may see them turning away while they are big with pride.

063.006

YUSUFALI: It is equal to them whether thou pray for their forgiveness or not. Allah will not forgive them. Truly Allah guides not rebellious transgressors.

PICKTHAL: Whether thou ask forgiveness for them or ask not forgiveness for them is all one for them; Allah will not forgive them. Lo! Allah guideth not the evil-living folk.

SHAKIR: It is alike to them whether you beg forgiveness for them or do not beg forgiveness for them; Allah will never forgive them; surely Allah does not guide the transgressing people.

According to the quran, if the Prophet (pbuh) was alive and you were urged to ask the prophet (pbuh) to ask Allah (aj) for forgiveness, then you sir are a...

REBELLIOUS TRANSGRESSOR!!!

So i hope that you rethink the situation and let me ask once again:

If the Prophet (pbuh) was infront of you, you wouldn't take the opportunity to say. "Ya Rasulullah (pbuh) please ask Allah (aj) to forgive my sins"

think about it again...

Edited by La fata illa Ali

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Yesterday you belittled the member Allahuakbar for the Islamic book which was posted:

I belittled the book, not him. What do you want me to say, that the book is good, when it isn't?

You told sister Enlightened_x that she should stop following "those who came before you" then mentioned an ayah about unbelievers committing indecency:

Considering the other verses I posted, I think it's clear why point was about not following those that came before you, not that I was accusing her of committing an indecency.

I see that Brother muhibb-ali had two messages this morning that you ignored.

Because what he posted wasn't relevant. I am looking for clear proof that it is permissible to call on others than Allah, and that proof has to be substantial in order to go against what the Quran says. As you know, any hadith that contradicts the Quran is to be rejected. So I would need words from the Imams (as) that deal with this issue in some depth.

You did not respond to my quote about five intercessors:

Again, this is talking about on the Day of Judgement.

Nahjul Balagha, Sermon 175

And know that this Qur'an is an adviser who never deceives, a leader who never misleads and a narrator who never speaks a lie. No one will sit beside this Qur'an but that when he rises he will achieve one addition or one diminution - addition in his guidance or elimination in his (spiritual) blindness. You should also know that no one will need anything after (guidance from) the Qur'an and no one will be free from want before (guidance from) the Qur'an.

Therefore, seek cure from it for your ailments and seek its assistance in your distresses. It contains a cure for the biggest diseases, namely unbelief, hypocrisy, revolt and misguidance. Pray to Allah through it and turn to Allah with its love. Do not ask the people through it. There is nothing like it through which the people should turn to Allah, the Sublime.

Know that it is an interceder and its intercession will be accepted. It is a speaker who is testified. For whoever the Qur'an intercedes on the Day of Judgement, its intercession for him would be accepted. He about whom the Qur'an speaks ill on the Day of Judgement shall testify to it.

Now, what people need to think about is whether the Quran will interceed for them on the Day of Judgement, when they are busy ignoring and explaining away so much of it.

Why does your member title say "rock minded jaheel"?

I reckon you guys are giving Haydar Husayn tooo much attention. He has proved his jahilee mentality.

Best option with such rock minded people is to ignore them. No need to allow him justify his retarded thoughts.

Just ignore the jaheel !!!

There are 61 topics at ShiaChat spelled tawassul and Haydar Husayn has to start a new topic about it? What is his motive?

Last night he was searching in a different topic for what he already posted there, in order to add it to this topic.

Let me ask you, Haydar Husayn, do you or do you not believe that we can say Ya Hussein? AS

Here we go... What is my motive? Am I a Wahhabi? etc, etc.

My only motive is to warn people against Shirk.

Sure, we can say Ya Husayn, as a slogan. Not as in calling upon him.

Lastly, where did u come this conclusion that only if u wronged him, u need to seek forgiveness from him??? Thats a different issue, what I am saying is that the Prophet (pbuh) can ask Allah (aj) on your behalf for Allah (aj) to forgive your sins.

(bismillah)

063.005

YUSUFALI: And when it is said to them, "Come, the Messenger of Allah will pray for your forgiveness", they turn aside their heads, and thou wouldst see them turning away their faces in arrogance.

PICKTHAL: And when it is said unto them: Come! The messenger of Allah will ask forgiveness for you! they avert their faces and thou seest them turning away, disdainful.

SHAKIR: And when it is said to them: Come, the Messenger of Allah will ask forgiveness for you, they turn back their heads and you may see them turning away while they are big with pride.

063.006

YUSUFALI: It is equal to them whether thou pray for their forgiveness or not. Allah will not forgive them. Truly Allah guides not rebellious transgressors.

PICKTHAL: Whether thou ask forgiveness for them or ask not forgiveness for them is all one for them; Allah will not forgive them. Lo! Allah guideth not the evil-living folk.

SHAKIR: It is alike to them whether you beg forgiveness for them or do not beg forgiveness for them; Allah will never forgive them; surely Allah does not guide the transgressing people.

According to the quran, if the Prophet (pbuh) was alive and you were one who didnt approach the prophet (pbuh) to ask for forgiveness, the you sir are a...

REBELLIOUS TRANSGRESSOR!!!

So i hope that you rethink the situation and let me ask once again:

Maybe you hadn't notice, but those verses are from Surah al-Munafiqun.

When the hypocrites come to you, they say: We bear witness that you are most surely Allah's Messenger; and Allah knows that you are most surely His Messenger, and Allah bears witness that the hypocrites are surely liars. [63:1]

They make their oaths a shelter, and thus turn away from Allah's way; surely evil is that which they do. [63:2]

That is because they believe, then disbelieve, so a seal is set upon their hearts so that they do not understand. [63:3]

And when you see them, their persons will please you, and If they speak, you will listen to their speech; (they are) as if they were big pieces of wood clad with garments; they think every cry to be against them. They are the enemy, therefore beware of them; may Allah destroy them, whence are they turned back? [63:4]

And when it is said to them: Come, the Messenger of Allah will ask forgiveness for you, they turn back their heads and you may see them turning away while they are big with pride. [64:5]

So yeah, I'm pretty sure the hypocrites of the time counted as people that wronged the Prophet (pbuh).

If the Prophet (pbuh) was infront of you, you wouldn't take the opportunity to say. "Ya Rasulullah (pbuh) please ask Allah (aj) to forgive my sins"

think about it again...

No. If the Prophet (pbuh) deems me worthy of keeping in his prayers, then alhamdulillah, but I wouldn't necessarily go up to him and ask him to unless I had wronged him. Although there would be nothing wrong with asking him to pray for you of course. I just don't see the need, especially as insha'Allah he would interceed for me on the Day of Judgement anyway.

Regardless, this is a complete side issue. The topic is about calling on others than Allah.

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So, do you pray to the Quran, to your near relatives, and to your trusts too? If no, do you think that might mean that the purpose of that tradition is not a proof that we should be doing so for the latter two?

(bismillah)

(salam)

^^^ Bro, nobody is praying to the five intercessors. The five intercessors are beseeching Allah SWT for our benefit, inshaAllah.

The Holy Qur'an knows how many times we open it and how many times we cry over the words written there.

I reckon you guys are giving Haydar Husayn tooo much attention. He has proved his jahilee mentality.

Best option with such rock minded people is to ignore them. No need to allow him justify his retarded thoughts.

Just ignore the jaheel !!!

Haydar, thank you ^^^ for explaining that. :lol:

So i would argue that the brothers oppressed Nabi Ya'qoob more than Nabi Yusuf , so of course they should ask forgiveness from him. And anothet evidence for this is when the brothers realized that the 'aziz was Yusuf , they said "Allah has most surely favored you over us" (loose translation)

And Allah (swt) knows best

^^^ ImamAliLover, thank you. Allah SWT knows best.

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Today you have confirmed what u are to the whole world, congratulations.

salam salam.

And certainly We have created for hell many of the jinn and the men; they have hearts with which they do not understand, and they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear; they are as cattle, nay, they are in worse errors; these are the heedless ones. [7:179]

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(bismillah)

(salam)

[shakir 17:71] (Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam

Ya Ali AS! Ya Hossein AS! Ya Imam Zaman AJ!

Edited by hameedeh

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And there are some among men who take for themselves objects of worship besides Allah, whom they love as they love Allah, and those who believe are stronger in love for Allah and O, that those who are unjust had seen, when they see the chastisement, that the power is wholly Allah's and that Allah is severe in requiting (evil). When those who were followed shall renounce those who followed (them), and they see the chastisement and their ties are cut asunder. And those who followed shall say: Had there been for us a return, then we would renounce them as they have renounced us. Thus will Allah show them their deeds to be intense regret to them, and they shall not come forth from the fire. [2:165-167]

He causes the night to enter in upon the day, and He causes the day to enter in upon the night, and He has made subservient (to you) the sun and the moon; each one follows its course to an appointed time; this is Allah, your Lord, His is the kingdom; and those whom you call upon besides Him do not control a straw. If you call on them they shall not hear your call, and even if they could hear they shall not answer you; and on the resurrection day they will deny your associating them (with Allah); and none can inform you like the One Who is Aware. [35:13-14]

And who is in greater error than he who calls besides Allah upon those that will not answer him till the day of resurrection and they are heedless of their call? And when men are gathered together they shall be their enemies, and shall be deniers of their worshipping (them). [47:5-6]

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*Sigh*

They have taken their doctors of law and their monks for lords besides Allah, and (also) the Messiah son of Marium and they were enjoined that they should serve one Allah only, there is no god but He; far from His glory be what they set up (with Him). [Qur'an 9:31, Shakir translation]

People need to learn to think for themselves. If you need the help of scholars on such a fundamental issue as Tawheed, then you are in trouble.

Bingo!

Taqleed is probably the biggest single problem in the shia ummah

people are like sheep and can't use their reason

(bismillah)

(salam)

There are 61 topics at ShiaChat spelled tawassul and Haydar Husayn has to start a new topic about it? What is his motive?

Last night he was searching in a different topic for what he already posted there, in order to add it to this topic.

Let me ask you, Haydar Husayn, do you or do you not believe that we can say Ya Hussein? AS

Maybe because he has read the Qu'ran and acknowledges the COUNTLESS, NUMEROUS warnings not to commit shirk like the ignorant pagan Arabs at the time of Muhammad?

If you read the Qu'ran cover to cover, you will see how many times this issue is mentioned. Hayder obviously is sensitive to the warning from Allah like all Muslims should be..unfortunately, people want to follow their desires and what they see other people doing..

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Maybe because he has read the Qu'ran and acknowledges the COUNTLESS, NUMEROUS warnings not to commit shirk like the ignorant pagan Arabs at the time of Muhammad?

Hey Hey Hey!!! show some respect! Muhammad (pbuh)

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another good thread hayder, i agre with you as usual

seems some people would rather follow their desires rather than follow the word of Allah

1 – al-Husayn b. Muhammad al-Ash`ari from Mu`alla b. Muhammad form al-Hasan b. `Ali al-Washsha, and from a number of our companions from Ahmad b. Muhammad from Ibn Faddal, all from `Asim b. Humayd from Muhammad b. Muslim from Abu Ja`far عليه السلام. He said: Amir al-Mu’mineen عليه السلام delivered a sermon to the people, and he said: O people, the beginning of the occurring of tumults is only whims that are followed and rules (ahkam) that are innovated, opposing in it the book of Allah. In it, men (blindly) follow (or, copy) men. And were falsehood unmixed, it would not be obscure upon a person who has a mind. And were the truth unmixed, there would be no variance (ikhtilaf). However, from this a handful of mixed fresh and dry herbs is taken, and from this a handful of mixed fresh and dry herbs, and they are mixed and come together. So there Shaytan takes hold over his loyalists. And saved are those who the best outcome precedes them from Allah. (muwaththaq ka’s-sahih)

http://www.*******.org/hadiths/beliefs-and-ethics/innovations-opinion-and-analogies

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Haydar Husayn asks for hadith, people give him hadith, he cries foul. He asks for tafseer, he cries foul when we give it to him. He asks for Quran aya against how he interprets verses he has brought that he says are against tawassul, we bring them to clarify what exactly those verses really mean and he ignores them. I've yet to see on what authority he makes his judgement, except some hadith that can be interpreted either way (he's more than willing to 'worship scholars' when he can work words transmitted to what he wants them to say) whereas we make our judgement not only based on the authority of scholars who have studied the issue far more than we have, but also plain reasoning from the Quran that he claims so clearly supports his view, which it doesn't. HH just rejects whatever doesn't support his opinion under the pretense of "I don't worship scholars," and "Oh, well, that is clearly a Sunni/Sufi influence." HH has already decided that anything that doesn't support his view is a "Sunni/Sufi influence," introduced to Shi'ism with no actual authority to prove this other than his own wants, before it is even presented or examined (as though something transmitted or partaken by the Sunnis or Sufis necessarily makes it wrong or not Shia, I guess Shia apologetics using Sunni sources is pointless then) and by what authority does he say that this or that is an inherently Sunni/Sufi idea that was later introduced? He just says it when it contradicts what he has decided for himself is true based purely on his own whims. He's already presupposed his reasoning is greater than centuries of scholars of Shia, Sunni, and Sufi based purely on the virtue of it being his own reasoning which is, at best, circular.

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23

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