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Haydar Husayn

Calling On Other Than Allah In The Quran

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A lot has to do with intention. If you suspect that a hadith my not be authentic, but use it purely for your own purposes, then I certainly don't think you will get any reward for that. On the other hand if you genuinely do think it was from the Imams (as), then why shouldn't you be rewarded for acting on it? And of course a hadith that asked to something contrary to the Quran or other authentic ahadith would need to be rejected outright.

So if they believe that they can call up the imams (as) they will still be rewarded....

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So if they believe that they can call up the imams (as) they will still be rewarded....

No, since there are no ahadith that tell people to call on the Imams (as). And if they have seen the evidence against calling on other than Allah which is in the Quran, and they still do it, then they will have no excuse.

Edited by Haydar Husayn

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Intention is a key part in Islam, all sects. Calling upon Allah s.w.t. is the only way and source of any positive, he is the Khaliq, and without him there is nothing, he sent Angels and Prophets as a wasila to reach him , when in reality he didn't need any, no angels or prophets. At the time of khaybar, Rasool al Akram s.a.w. called for Ali, he could have made his call to the Lord of the Throne for a victory through any of the muslimeen that weren't ill. Nabi Sulayman couldv'e asked Allah directly for Bilqis's throne, Asif showed it to him , all through Allahs will. You want to use logic and reason, I suggest people don't fasir the Qur'an to what they think it is, there is outer and inner meanings that none of us know.

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Intention is a key part in Islam, all sects. Calling upon Allah s.w.t. is the only way and source of any positive, he is the Khaliq, and without him there is nothing, he sent Angels and Prophets as a wasila to reach him , when in reality he didn't need any, no angels or prophets. At the time of khaybar, Rasool al Akram s.a.w. called for Ali, he could have made his call to the Lord of the Throne for a victory through any of the muslimeen that weren't ill. Nabi Sulayman couldv'e asked Allah directly for Bilqis's throne, Asif showed it to him , all through Allahs will. You want to use logic and reason, I suggest people don't fasir the Qur'an to what they think it is, there is outer and inner meanings that none of us know.

Asking someone who is in front of you isn't the same thing as calling on someone like you would upon Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì. If you won't take any notice of the repeated and clear warnings in the Quran, maybe you'll listen to the words of Imam Ali (as):

Nahjul Balagha, Letter 31

Develop the habit of patience against sufferings, calamities and adversities. This virtue of patience is one of the highest values of morality and nobility of character and it is the best habit which one can develop. Trust in Allah and let your mind seek His protection in every calamity and suffering because you will thus entrust yourself and your affairs to the Best Trustee and to the Mightiest Guardian. Do not seek help or protection from anybody but Allah. Reserve your prayers, your requests, your solicitations, your supplications, and your entreaties to Him and Him alone because to grant, to give, to confer and to bestow, as well as to withhold, to deprive, to refuse, and to debar, lies only in His Power. Ask as much of His Blessings and seek as much of His Guidance as you can.

[...]

Realize this truth, my son, that the Lord who owns and holds the treasures of Paradise and the earth has given you permission to ask and beg for them and He has promised to grant your prayers. He has told you to pray for His Favours that they may be granted to you and to ask for His Blessings that they may be bestowed upon you. He has not appointed guards to prevent your prayers reaching Him. Nor is there any need for anybody to intercede before Him on your behalf.

If you go back upon your promises, if your break your vows, or start doing things that you have repented of, He will not immediately punish you nor does He refuse His Blessings in haste and if you repent once again He neither taunts you nor betrays you though you may fully deserve both, but He accepts your penitence and pardons you. He never grudges His Forgiveness nor refuses His Mercy, on the contrary He has decreed repentance as a virtue and pious deed. The Merciful Lord has ordered that every evil deed of yours will be counted as one and a good deed and pious action will be rewarded tenfold. He has left the door of repentance open. He hears you whenever you call Him. He accepts your prayer whenever you pray to Him. Invoke Him to grant you your heart's desire, lay before Him the secrets of your heart, tell Him about all the calamities that have befallen you and misfortunes which face you, and beseech His help to overcome them. You may invoke His Help and Support in difficulties and distresses.

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And do not speak of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead; nay, (they are) alive, but you do not perceive.

You might as well throw out salam to rasool saw during prayer since he won't hear you, according to what you state.

Again, shafa3 is different then directly praying to anyone other then Allah swt. I see many people like to tongue twist words. We all know Allahs law regarding shafa3 and wasila, Dua is to Allah alone. Shafa3 is left for those he left it for, wether it be in this life or the next.

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And do not speak of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead; nay, (they are) alive, but you do not perceive.

What does being dead have to do with anything I posted?

You might as well throw out salam to rasool saw during prayer since he won't hear you, according to what you state.

He doesn't hear your salam, but it is reported to him. There is no proof anything else is reported to him though.

Again, shafa3 is different then directly praying to anyone other then Allah swt. I see many people like to tongue twist words. We all know Allahs law regarding shafa3 and wasila, Dua is to Allah alone. Shafa3 is left for those he left it for, wether it be in this life or the next.

If you call on Ali (as) for help, then that is a dua, and it is shirk.

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Inquiries About Shi'a Islam

by

Imam Sayed Moustafa al-Qazwini

http://www.iecoc.org/site/Resources/Sayed_Bio.htm

Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq, the sixth Imam of the school of Ahlul Bayt, at the time of his martyrdom called his relatives and companions and said, “Verily, our intercession will never reach one who takes the prayers lightly.” al-Majlisi, Bihar al-Anwar, 82:236

The Intercessors are five: the Quran, one's near relatives, trusts (amanah), your Prophet, and the family of your Prophet (the Ahlul Bayt) Hadith 39041 al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Kanz al-Ummal

Sabr (according to commentators of the Quran, in this context refers to fasting) and salat(prayers)are means which ultimately lead one to Allah. Thus calling upon the Prophet or Imam Ali is allegorical since all agree that Allah is the main source of support, aid, and assistance and they are just a means to Him.

Some Muslims associate calling upon the Prophet or the imams as shirk (heresy). They argue that a person should not ask any person for help. However, we see that if a person is faced with a problem in life, often, this person will logically and naturally call upon a nearby person for help. If a person was about to drown and he called out for help, then would his seeking help from someone other than Allah make him a mushrik (associating one with Allah)? By the same reasoning, calling upon the Prophet or the imams is not shirk. The argument that they cannot be called upon because they are dead is also invalid, because the Quran falsifies the notion of martyrs being classified as dead, “Think not of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead. Nay, they are alive with their Lord, and they have provision.”[118] “And say not of those who are killed in the way of Allah, 'They are dead.' Nay, they are living, but you perceive it not.”[119]

If an ordinary Muslim was martyred (for the cause of Allah) is considered to be alive, then how can the Prophet and his family, who were not only martyrs, but whose rank also surpassed that of all other human beings, be considered dead? Calling upon the Prophet and his family does not negate the fact that Allah is the source of help and rescue in this universe. However, because these people are the closest to Him, and they enjoy a special status with Him, then calling upon them means calling upon Allah for the sake of those whom He loves.

[118] Noble Quran, 3:169

[119] Noble Quran, 2:154

http://www.al-islam.org/shiism/

Edited by thenamelessone

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What does being dead have to do with anything I posted?

He doesn't hear your salam, but it is reported to him. There is no proof anything else is reported to him though.

If you call on Ali (as) for help, then that is a dua, and it is shirk.

Where did you find that he does not hear the Salam and he is just reported It? Please show me that with authentic Hadith and not from Quran, you are not qualified to do tafsir, also, are you limiting Allahs power of not allowing his greatest creation to hear a Salam, or even be there at that moment?

What is your stance on imam al hujja? Does he know what is going on in the world? Can he see or hear anything or is he just reported all actions and deeds?

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(bismillah)

(salam)

The book linked to in my above post discusses both intercession and shafaa, in chapters 7 (intercession) and 8 (shafaa) It is written by a Shi'i Aalim who leads the Islamic center in California but is from Karbala, Iraq. If you seriously want to know why Islam allows this practice read the book, read others written by Shia scholars on the topic. I am not changing my views because someone on the internet (who does not even believe in the Imam (atf) for all I know) told me I was wrong, Its a bit of a joke to be honest because no one with a brain is going to take their religion via internet, they are going to understand it through learned and trusted individuals. Maybe the internet is a place to start, a place to hear of Shia Islam for the first time, but individuals who write on the internet should never be trusted. Only learned the learned Alim of our beautiful faith. If you don't understand something tell your shiekh. He understands people have questions and is happy to answer them and help and guide you.If you are in the west and you don't think there is a Hossayniyyah near to you guess what! There is, just ask the taxi drivers in your city, there is bound to be at least one taxi driver who practices Shia Islam (I know this sounds stereo typish but its true) I promise. Lastly if you don't believe in something and others do, and you don't want to learn about it or understand it, don't waste your time or ours preaching about it.

Ma'a Salaama

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(bismillah)

(salam)

ok insha'Allah I will do

What about the learned aalims such as Sheikh as-Sadooq [ra] and Sheikh al-Mufeed [ra] who don't agree with it?

If I ask a sheikh I want that sheikh to be able to bring forward proofs as to why intercession is allowed, so far from lectures that I have seen the main argument is that the Qur'an says they aren't dead and they are alive [which obviously I believe], they say that if you go to a doctor for help then you can call upon the A'immah [as] for help, the difference is though a doctor is present, the A'immah [as] may be present but it is not my responsibility to read every single narration to see whether they are present or not, and if someone is saying tawassul is allowed then they should be able to back it with concrete evidence.

I'm not wasting my time or trying to waste anyone elses time. I'm not debating for the sake of it, and I'm not 100% fixed that my view is right and every other view is wrong, however so far I have not seen anything concrete that proves the A'immah [as] can hear us if we ask them for something, and that they can then ask Allah (swt) to fulfil our dua [whatever it is]

Infact I have seen more things which are against tawassul than for tawassul.

Ma'salama

(bismillah)

(wasalam)

I wasn't going to make any more replies but you do sound sincere. Allow me to answer what I can, as I am not an Aalim. I am just a person such as yourself practicing my religion to the best of my knowledge and capability, therefore I am not qualified to be going on and on about topics like this one, especially given the seriousness of the issue.

However, you brought up scholars such as Shiekh's Mufeed and Sadooq (ra respectively), But they are deceased. In our religion we have a thing which makes it all the harder, that is a need in some ages for taqeeyah, also, the fact that scholars are fallible, and they can differ with one another. This is why we look at the rulings of many different scholars, rather than one or two and see what their arguments were both for and against. Then, when it comes to belief, when we feel we have explored a topic to our satisfaction, we make an informed choice as to what we are going to incorporate into our personal belief system. This is why we speak to scholars that are alive, that we can talk to. Who know many different scholars opinions and rulings and can help you to learn more.

The Hussayniyyah I go to is different from the masjid I attend. So I have access to two learned Aalim who often differ from one another in opinion, but both are always more than happy to teach me. I have never found it difficult to go and speak to one or the other, and they have always found time for me. Whether through email or in person I can always ask questions I need to or have things further explained. (HA! Since I found them through the taxi driver!) We can read books written by various scholars and ayatollahs also, there are a great many of these books. In the end this is the best course of action, what I have done is to read all I can find to read and then go to the sheikh's and ask questions I have. This way I feel I have fully explored a topic to the best of my ability and am involving myself in an acceptable practice and belief, and thus feel comfortable with any decision that I make.

In the end this is all I can tell you to do, deciding upon a belief is first of all personal, no one can tell you what to believe and there is not usually an easy answer. Its not always so cut and dried, and as an Imami you should know this better than anyone. Prayer is a great help when you are confused on a topic as well. But I am serious, make sure you are learning from books of scholars or the scholars themselves. Not here brother, not here.

Edited by thenamelessone

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(bismillah)

(salam)

JazakAllah Khair for taking your time to respond to me :)

insha'Allah I will look into tawassul more deeply and will talk to a scholar when I have the chance to

(wasalam)

(bismillah)

(salam)

Wa JazakAllah Khairun ya akhi

I pray Allah to guide you in your search for knowledge, blessing and protecting you in this and any other quest you have in life. Take good care brother. (as a beside, I didn't do anything :) )

Edited by thenamelessone

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Where did you find that he does not hear the Salam and he is just reported It? Please show me that with authentic Hadith and not from Quran, you are not qualified to do tafsir, also, are you limiting Allahs power of not allowing his greatest creation to hear a Salam, or even be there at that moment?

Read the thread I linked you to.

Here are the main hadiths quoted:

And the Messenger of Allah (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) said: Whoever gives salam upon me at my grave I hear him, and whoever gives salam upon me from afar I am informed of it, the peace of Allah be upon him and the mercy of Allah and His blessings.

From Ziyaad bin Abee Al-Hilaal from Abee `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام): “There is neither a prophet nor successor of a prophet who remains on earth for more than three days. Thereafter, his soul, flesh and bones are taken up to the heavens. Furthermore, going to places which their marks are located, and conveying salaams to them from afar. They (will) hear from the places which have their marks (as if they were) nearby.”

What is your stance on imam al hujja? Does he know what is going on in the world? Can he see or hear anything or is he just reported all actions and deeds?

I believe he is aware of what is going on in the world, but I do not believe he sees and hears everything that goes on in the world, since even the Prophet (pbuh) wasn't able to do that, and these aren't qualities that fit in very well with being a human being.

Can I ask all you people with your heads in the sand about this just how much tafsir you need to understand the repeated statements not to call on other than Allah? How many ways of interpreting that do you think there are? I have also provided you with ahadith that tell you not to call on other than Allah.

At this point, you have been made aware of enough evidence that you have no excuse. If you continue doing it, simply based on the words of scholars, with no ayats from the Quran or ahadith from the Imams (as) to back it up, then you will be in serious trouble on the Day of Judgement.

1 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub from a number of our companions from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Khalid [from his father – not in the masdar] from `Abdullah b. Yahya from Ibn Muskan from Abu Basir – meaning al-Muradi – from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: I said to him: “They took their rabbis and their monks as lords apart from Allah”. (9:31) So he said: Indeed by Allah, they did not call them to worship themselves, rather they allowed (i.e. made halal) for them (something) forbidden (haram) and forbade (i.e. made haram) upon them something allowed (halal). So they worshiped them wherefrom they did not perceive.

http://www.tashayyu....ment/chapter-10

Edited by Haydar Husayn

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They said: O our father! ask forgiveness of our faults for us, surely we were sinners.

He (Prophet Ya'qub (as) ) said: I will ask for you forgiveness from my Lord; surely He is the Forgiving, the Merciful.

(12:97-98).

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(bismillah)

(salam)

The book linked to in my above post discusses both intercession and shafaa, in chapters 7 (intercession) and 8 (shafaa) It is written by a Shi'i Aalim who leads the Islamic center in California but is from Karbala, Iraq. If you seriously want to know why Islam allows this practice read the book, read others written by Shia scholars on the topic. I am not changing my views because someone on the internet (who does not even believe in the Imam (atf) for all I know) told me I was wrong, Its a bit of a joke to be honest because no one with a brain is going to take their religion via internet, they are going to understand it through learned and trusted individuals. Maybe the internet is a place to start, a place to hear of Shia Islam for the first time, but individuals who write on the internet should never be trusted. Only learned the learned Alim of our beautiful faith. If you don't understand something tell your shiekh. He understands people have questions and is happy to answer them and help and guide you.If you are in the west and you don't think there is a Hossayniyyah near to you guess what! There is, just ask the taxi drivers in your city, there is bound to be at least one taxi driver who practices Shia Islam (I know this sounds stereo typish but its true) I promise. Lastly if you don't believe in something and others do, and you don't want to learn about it or understand it, don't waste your time or ours preaching about it.

Ma'a Salaama

You should trust the words of your Lord, who wouldn't give such a deceiving message as to say over and over against not to call on other than him, only to then allow it. The Quran was sent down for everyone to reflect on, not just the so-called aalims. You are taking a very dangerous approach by ignoring the Quran in favour of trusting scholars, and are doing just what the Jews did with their scholars. As for your book, I will address it soon in more detail, insha'Allah.

They said: O our father! ask forgiveness of our faults for us, surely we were sinners.

He (Prophet Ya'qub (as) ) said: I will ask for you forgiveness from my Lord; surely He is the Forgiving, the Merciful.

(12:97-98).

What does this have to do with anything? Seriously, do any of you bother to think for yourselves, or do you just mindlessly repeat the 'proofs' you have heard in lectures, or read in books?

Think about this carefully, and ask yourself just how similar this is to people calling on Imams.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

HH, the words of my Lord come from two sources, the Quran an Natiq and the Quran as Samit. Two, they do not separate, if you take one without the other you have gone astray. I do in fact trust in the words of my Lord. And no HE (azj) does not deceive me. The deceiver is the one who says I can only accept one. If I only accepted one I would not be shia, this is a fact. By trying to deceive people into only accepting one, you are in fact attempting to lead people astray. One hopes that people will have the wherewithal to see through this blatant attempt to mislead others. I am telling people to speak to Aalim and examine all sources of knowledge available to us as shia, you are telling people to ignore learned people and ignore ahadith and logic and come to one conclusion, which of us appears to be attempting to follow Islam and which of us is attempting to mislead? I am sure people will decide this for themselves.

http://www.shiachat....__fromsearch__1

Edited by thenamelessone

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What does this have to do with anything? Seriously, do any of you bother to think for yourselves, or do you just mindlessly repeat the 'proofs' you have heard in lectures, or read in books?

Think about this carefully, and ask yourself just how similar this is to people calling on Imams.

The brothers of Prophet Yusuf asked for repentance to Allah via Prophet Ya'qub (as). So i don't see the problem why we should not do tawassul.

Edited by аli

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The brothers of Prophet Yusuf asked for repentance to Allah via Prophet Ya'qub (as). So i don't see the problem why we should not do tawassul.

Ok, let me list the differences:

1) The brothers of the Prophet Yusuf (as) had wronged their father, so it made sense to ask him to pray for their forgiveness.

2) All they asked for was forgiveness for the particular sin they had done to wrong their father and brother, not for other sins, let alone did they ask their father to interceed in all kinds of other requests they had, like many Shias do today with the Imams (as).

3) Their father was right in front of them to ask, they didn't need to call upon him, as in making dua. On the other hand, you don't even have any proof that the Imams (as) are informed of your supplication to them, and it's certain they don't hear you when you are far from their graves.

4) They asked their father to pray to Allah for forgiveness, they didn't directly ask their father to perform miracles for them, like many Shias do today with the Imams (as).

Now, instead of wondering why you shouldn't do tawassul, why don't you give some good reasons why you should?

(bismillah)

(salam)

HH, the words of my Lord come from two sources, the Quran an Natiq and the Quran as Samit. Two, they do not separate, if you take one without the other you have gone astray. I do in fact trust in the words of my Lord. And no HE (azj) does not deceive me. The deceiver is the one who says I can only accept one. If I only accepted one I would not be shia, this is a fact. By trying to deceive people into only accepting one, you are in fact attempting to lead people astray. One hopes that people will have the wherewithal to see through this blatant attempt to mislead others. I am telling people to speak to Aalim and examine all sources of knowledge available to us as shia, you are telling people to ignore learned people and ignore ahadith and logic and come to one conclusion, which of us appears to be attempting to follow Islam and which of us is attempting to mislead? I am sure people will decide this for themselves.

http://www.shiachat....__fromsearch__1

I also accept both, and I have provided proof from the Imams (as). Why don't you do the same, instead of just quoting scholars?

from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: I said to him: Verily these `awamm claim that shirk is more obscure than the creeping of the ant in a dark night upon the black haircloth. So he said: The servant is not a mushrik until he prays to other than Allah, or slaughters (an animal) for other than Allah, or supplicates to other than Allah `azza wa jalla.

Realize this truth, my son, that the Lord who owns and holds the treasures of Paradise and the earth has given you permission to ask and beg for them and He has promised to grant your prayers. He has told you to pray for His Favours that they may be granted to you and to ask for His Blessings that they may be bestowed upon you. He has not appointed guards to prevent your prayers reaching Him. Nor is there any need for anybody to intercede before Him on your behalf. [imam Ali (as), Nahjul Balagha]

Read for more.

It looks like I'm the one following the Quran and the ahlulbayt, and you are the one following the words of scholars.

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Ok, let me list the differences:

1) The brothers of the Prophet Yusuf (as) had wronged their father, so it made sense to ask him to pray for their forgiveness.

2) All they asked for was forgiveness for the particular sin they had done to wrong their father and brother, not for other sins, let alone did they ask their father to interceed in all kinds of other requests they had, like many Shias do today with the Imams (as).

3) Their father was right in front of them to ask, they didn't need to call upon him, as in making dua. On the other hand, you don't even have any proof that the Imams (as) are informed of your supplication to them, and it's certain they don't hear you when you are far from their graves.

4) They asked their father to pray to Allah for forgiveness, they didn't directly ask their father to perform miracles for them, like many Shias do today with the Imams (as).

Now, instead of wondering why you shouldn't do tawassul, why don't you give some good reasons why you should?

So what if The brothers of the Prophet Yusuf (as) had wronged their father and so on and so on? The point is they asked repentance to Allah via their father. They said Ya Aba not Allahumma and their father did not correct them.

The reason? Because that's not a form of shirk and it is already explained in the first page.

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It looks like I'm the one following the Quran and the ahlulbayt, and you are the one following the words of scholars.

(bismillah)

Literalism is a disease, if we took everything literally we would be strapping bombs to our bodies and killing innocent woman and children like the terrorists. There are more than one way to understanding, and more than one ahadith and more than one ayah. We have a thing called reason, we have our minds, we have aql, we have quran, we have ahadith, there is not one or two ahadith, there is not one or two ayah in the quran that are pertinent to our understanding. It is not something you can learn about and decide in 5 minutes after speaking to someone who has no idea what they are talking about on the internet! All these things are why we are not running around strapping bombs to ourselves, because we know everything is not as simple as it may first appear, we are intelligent enough to know we must gain full understanding of a concept before deciding upon it, and we are intelligent enough to ask others who have a greater knowledge than ourselves (which is ALSO endorsed by that Quran in your hand!)

Edited by thenamelessone

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Literalism is a disease, if we took everything literally we would be strapping bombs to our bodies and killing innocent woman and children like the terrorists. There are more than one way to understanding, and more than one ahadith and more than one ayah. We have a thing called reason, we have our minds, we have aql, we have quran, we have ahadith, there is not one or two ahadith, there is not one or two ayah in the quran that are pertinent to our understanding. It is not something you can learn about and decide in 5 minutes after speaking to someone who has no idea what they are talking about on the internet! All these things are why we are not running around strapping bombs to ourselves, because we know everything is not as simple as it may first appear, we are intelligent enough to know we must gain full understanding of a concept before deciding upon it, and we are intelligent enough to ask others who have a greater knowledge than ourselves (which is ALSO endorsed by that Quran in your hand!)

You have a very disturbing view of Islam if you think there is anything that if taken literally would lead to terrorism.

Complaining about literalism is also just some convenient way to avoid the clear meanings of the Quran and the ahadith. As for your aql, I don't see much evidence that you are using it, since you seem afraid to think for yourself, and would rather trust scholars on this. This is definitely not something endorsed by the Quran.

They have taken their doctors of law and their monks for lords besides Allah, and (also) the Messiah son of Marium and they were enjoined that they should serve one Allah only, there is no god but He; far from His glory be what they set up (with Him). [9:31]

1 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub from a number of our companions from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Khalid [from his father – not in the masdar] from `Abdullah b. Yahya from Ibn Muskan from Abu Basir – meaning al-Muradi – from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: I said to him: “They took their rabbis and their monks as lords apart from Allah”. (9:31) So he said: Indeed by Allah, they did not call them to worship themselves, rather they allowed (i.e. made halal) for them (something) forbidden (haram) and forbade (i.e. made haram) upon them something allowed (halal). So they worshiped them wherefrom they did not perceive.

Surely those who conceal the clear proofs and the guidance that We revealed after We made it clear in the Book for men, these it is whom Allah shall curse, and those who curse shall curse them (too). [2:159]

Do they not then reflect on the Quran? Nay, on the hearts there are locks. [47:24]

And should the truth follow their low desires, surely the heavens and the earth and all those who are therein would have perished. Nay! We have brought to them their reminder, but from their reminder they turn aside. [23:71]

My communications were indeed recited to you, but you used to turn back on your heels, In arrogance; talking nonsense about the Quran, and left him like one telling fables by night. Is it then that they do not ponder over what is said, or is it that there has come to them that which did not come to their fathers of old? [23:66-68]

Edited by Haydar Husayn

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(bismillah)

You are painting a picture with one brush and one color, while this is not the analogy of our religion, our religion is beautiful, why do you think I always use this term for the religion of Allah? Because it is a picture painted with many brushes in an entire rainbow of colors. We have two things to which we must cling as if our lives depend upon it, the Quran and the Ahl al Bayt (as). The Ahl al Bayt (as) and the Quran have told us we have aql and reason also as our guides, and the Quran and the Ahl al Bayt (as) have told us that some of us must study religion extensively in order to teach the people and have stressed their importance also. We can't look at one or two or even three ayah without looking at the others which complement them, we look at the teachings of the Ahl al Bayt (as) concerning those ayaat also, we use our reason and our aql to see how they go together, and our teachers to help us do just that. This is the absolute beauty of the religion of Islam.

I have nothing more to say on this topic and wont be replying again, I wish you all the best in your quest for knowledge.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Can I ask you to please show me authentic hadith and also from the Qur'an that the Prophet (pbuh) directly hears our salaams instead of it being reported to him.

(wasalam)

I am waiting for the hadith first of it being sent to him, instead of him hearing it.

Read the thread I linked you to.

Here are the main hadiths quoted:

And the Messenger of Allah (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) said: Whoever gives salam upon me at my grave I hear him, and whoever gives salam upon me from afar I am informed of it, the peace of Allah be upon him and the mercy of Allah and His blessings.

From Ziyaad bin Abee Al-Hilaal from Abee `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام): “There is neither a prophet nor successor of a prophet who remains on earth for more than three days. Thereafter, his soul, flesh and bones are taken up to the heavens. Furthermore, going to places which their marks are located, and conveying salaams to them from afar. They (will) hear from the places which have their marks (as if they were) nearby.”

I believe he is aware of what is going on in the world, but I do not believe he sees and hears everything that goes on in the world, since even the Prophet (pbuh) wasn't able to do that, and these aren't qualities that fit in very well with being a human being.

Can I ask all you people with your heads in the sand about this just how much tafsir you need to understand the repeated statements not to call on other than Allah? How many ways of interpreting that do you think there are? I have also provided you with ahadith that tell you not to call on other than Allah.

At this point, you have been made aware of enough evidence that you have no excuse. If you continue doing it, simply based on the words of scholars, with no ayats from the Quran or ahadith from the Imams (as) to back it up, then you will be in serious trouble on the Day of Judgement.

1 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub from a number of our companions from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Khalid [from his father – not in the masdar] from `Abdullah b. Yahya from Ibn Muskan from Abu Basir – meaning al-Muradi – from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: I said to him: “They took their rabbis and their monks as lords apart from Allah”. (9:31) So he said: Indeed by Allah, they did not call them to worship themselves, rather they allowed (i.e. made halal) for them (something) forbidden (haram) and forbade (i.e. made haram) upon them something allowed (halal). So they worshiped them wherefrom they did not perceive.

http://www.tashayyu....ment/chapter-10

Can you provide me with the chain of narrators for the hadiths provided, thanks.

Also, no need to accuse me or anyone else of doing shirk, that itself is a sin, you have no clue of my niyya and who I pray to. I suggest people don't fasir the qur'an to what they believe it means or what they heard it means, no one on this walking planet, aside from Sahib al Asr a.s., know's the qur'an and it's tafsir.

Salams

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Can you provide me with the chain of narrators for the hadiths provided, thanks.

Also, no need to accuse me or anyone else of doing shirk, that itself is a sin, you have no clue of my niyya and who I pray to. I suggest people don't fasir the qur'an to what they believe it means or what they heard it means, no one on this walking planet, aside from Sahib al Asr a.s., know's the qur'an and it's tafsir.

Salams

عِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنْ عَلِيِّ بْنِ الْحَكَمِ عَنْ زِيَادِ بْنِ أَبِي الْحَلَّالِ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ مَا مِنْ نَبِيٍّ وَ لَا وَصِيِّ نَبِيٍّ يَبْقَى فِي الْأَرْضِ أَكْثَرَ مِنْ ثَلَاثَةِ أَيَّامٍ حَتَّى تُرْفَعَ رُوحُهُ وَ عَظْمُهُ وَ لَحْمُهُ إِلَى السَّمَاءِ وَ إِنَّمَا تُؤْتَى مَوَاضِعُ آثَارِهِمْ وَ يُبَلِّغُونَهُمْ مِنْ بَعِيدٍ السَّلَامَ وَ يُسْمِعُونَهُمْ فِي مَوَاضِعِ آثَارِهِمْ مِنْ قَرِيبٍ

From Ziyaad bin Abee Al-Hilaal from Abee `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام): “There is neither a prophet nor successor of a prophet who remains on earth for more than three days. Thereafter, his soul, flesh and bones are taken up to the heavens. Furthermore, going to places which their marks are located, and conveying salaams to them from afar. They (will) hear from the places which have their marks (as if they were) nearby.”

Source:

1. Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 4, pg. 567, hadeeth # 1

Grading:

1. Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is SaHeeH

à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 18, pg. 284

حدثني محمد بن يعقوب عن عدة من أصحابه عن أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى عن علي بن الحكم عن زياد بن أبي الهلال عن أبي عبد الله ع قال ما من نبي و لا وصي نبي يبقى‏في الأرض بأكثر من ثلاثة أيام ثم ترفع روحه و عظمه و لحمه إلى السماء و إنما يؤتى مواضع آثارهم و يبلغونهم من بعيد السلام و يسمعونهم في مواضع آثارهم من قريب

From Ziyaad bin Abee Al-Hilaal from Abee `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام): “There is neither a prophet nor successor of a prophet who remains on earth for more than three days. Thereafter, his soul, flesh and bones are taken up to the heavens. Furthermore, going to places which their marks are located, and conveying salaams to them from afar. They (will) hear from the places which have their marks (as if they were) nearby.”

Source:

1. Ibn Quluwayh, Kaamil Al-Ziyaaraat, ch. 108, pg. 329-339, hadeeth # 3

http://www.revivingalislam.com/2011/03/sending-salaams-to-prophets-and-ahl-al.html

I'm not calling you a mushrik, since I have no idea what you do. I'm simply quoting the Quran and ahadith that say if you do such and such, then it is shirk.

from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: I said to him: Verily these `awamm claim that shirk is more obscure than the creeping of the ant in a dark night upon the black haircloth. So he said: The servant is not a mushrik until he prays to other than Allah, or slaughters (an animal) for other than Allah, or supplicates to other than Allah `azza wa jalla.

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some very good points from brother Hayder and Shia Debater

As for the Prophet Yusuf (as) example, you can't be serious with that..that is COMPLETELY different to modern day shia ideas of tawassul

What ideas? Although i don't agree with the people who do dua asking for petty things, did they commit shirk just for asking something via the imams (as) ?

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I'm not calling you a mushrik, since I have no idea what you do. I'm simply quoting the Quran and ahadith that say if you do such and such, then it is shirk.

from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: I said to him: Verily these `awamm claim that shirk is more obscure than the creeping of the ant in a dark night upon the black haircloth. So he said: The servant is not a mushrik until he prays to other than Allah, or slaughters (an animal) for other than Allah, or supplicates to other than Allah `azza wa jalla.

I have two questiosn regarding this hadith, although it's not really to relevant to the discussion...

1) You often talk about following scholars when they teach you wrongs things in religion is a type of shirk and infact you are worshipping them, you quote a hadith to that respect explaining a verse, isn't there a contradiction here?

2) Suppose a pagan worships many gods but doesn't pray to them. Suppose they acknowledge them as deities but don't actually pray to them, or slaughters for them. Would they be a Mushrik?

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I have two questiosn regarding this hadith, although it's not really to relevant to the discussion...

1) You often talk about following scholars when they teach you wrongs things in religion is a type of shirk and infact you are worshipping them, you quote a hadith to that respect explaining a verse, isn't there a contradiction here?

How is quoting the words of an infallible Imam that explain an ayah of the Quran in contradiction with what I said?

2) Suppose a pagan worships many gods but doesn't pray to them. Suppose they acknowledge them as deities but don't actually pray to them, or slaughters for them. Would they be a Mushrik?

I think the context of that hadith is that the 'servant' is a Muslim, hence he would already believe that there is no god but Allah.

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How is quoting the words of an infallible Imam that explain an ayah of the Quran in contradiction with what I said?

Well I'm talking about the two notions, one notions says a servant is not a mushrik unless he prays to other then God, or invokes other then God or slaughters an animal for other then God and the other notion is that if you follow scholars when they teach you wrong things regarding religion, then your a Mushrik.

I think the context of that hadith is that the 'servant' is a Muslim, hence he would already believe that there is no god but Allah.

From reading Quran and hadiths, I see two terms of servants. One is general, and includes every creature, as a servant of God. Your aware of such verses. Then there is positive sense of serving God, and in this sense we see in Suratal Furqan certain traits of them are mentioned.

One thing to note, is that a "Mushrik" cannot be considered either a "Muslim" or the high meaning of servant in suratal Furqan. The positive virtue servant meaning is such that applies to people that are promised paradise in Suratal Furqan and hence are not people in a state of Shirk. Shirk put's you in seperate group then a Muslim, as you are going against the "Fitrah" and are no longer in state of submission to God's will.

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Salaam,

I find it weird how some people refer to tawassul as shirk. How can tawassul be considered shirk when the definition itself states that the people whom you are doing tawassul through are dependent on Allah, not independent. Instead of discussing tawassul, the discussion should be on the definition of shirk, because some people clearly don't know what they are talking about.

Where is the proof that something can only be considered shirk if you believe the objects of your shirk are independent of Allah? Does Allah in the Quran ever single this out as the main crime of the polytheists? Because to me, it seems as if the objection is against calling upon other than Allah, with no reference being made to independence. In fact:

And they serve beside Allah what can neither harm them nor profit them, and they say: These are our intercessors with Allah. Say: Do you (presume to) inform Allah of what He knows not in the heavens and the earth? Glory be to Him, and supremely exalted is He above what they set up (with Him). [Qur'an 10:18, Shakir translation]

It doesn't seem like they believed that the people they were calling on here were independent of Allah, simply that they calling upon intercessors with Him. Yet, they were rebuked anyway.

Where does Allah say in the Quran that it's ok to call upon other than Him, as long as you believe they aren't independent of Him?

According to these scholars, people may apply what is stated above, so the problem is not with them anymore.

So, who has the courage to say that these scholars are misleading people and taking them down the path of shirk? Say it about these scholars, just as you have addressed other members, so that others and I know your type of mentality and how to treat your posts from now on.

It has already being acknowledged that scholars allow this type of thing. Thanks for proving it, because some people seemed to be doubting that it was true.

As for how you choose to treat the posts of people who dsagree with you, I doubt anyone could care less. Your whole attitude is that the scholars allow it, so we should all accept it, and nobody is really interested in talking to people with that type of mentality, unless they already share the same views.

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Guest EndlessEndeavor

Hayder Husayn,

If you look under the section الطلب المباشر من الامام of the Q and A in the link given for Sayed Kamal el Haidarys website, he discusses this topic briefly with some evidence, though the evidence seems to be more aimed at Sunni sources (presumably because this is more accepted in Shiasm and not discussed as much)

Have a look if you can.

Edited by EndlessEndeavor

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Where is the proof that something can only be considered shirk if you believe the objects of your shirk are independent of Allah? Does Allah in the Quran ever single this out as the main crime of the polytheists? Because to me, it seems as if the objection is against calling upon other than Allah, with no reference being made to independence. In fact:

And they serve beside Allah what can neither harm them nor profit them, and they say: These are our intercessors with Allah. Say: Do you (presume to) inform Allah of what He knows not in the heavens and the earth? Glory be to Him, and supremely exalted is He above what they set up (with Him). [Qur'an 10:18, Shakir translation]

It doesn't seem like they believed that the people they were calling on here were independent of Allah, simply that they calling upon intercessors with Him. Yet, they were rebuked anyway.

Where does Allah say in the Quran that it's ok to call upon other than Him, as long as you believe they aren't independent of Him?

It has already being acknowledged that scholars allow this type of thing. Thanks for proving it, because some people seemed to be doubting that it was true.

As for how you choose to treat the posts of people who dsagree with you, I doubt anyone could care less. Your whole attitude is that the scholars allow it, so we should all accept it, and nobody is really interested in talking to people with that type of mentality, unless they already share the same views.

Allah recommends seeking wasila. Now wasila can be namaz, in which case seeking would be praying, it can be Quran in which case seeking would be reciting, it could be the Ahl al Bayt (a) in which case seeking could be reading their words which you believe in order to explain the Quran (as you do?), and seeking can also be calling upon them as is recommended in countless books and narrations from them. You may disagree with the method of seeking, but you can not label someone else's means of seeking wasila as 'shirk.' Even the sunni ulema refrain from calling shia kafir, how can you so easily - based on picking and choosing ayat from the Quran - label so many Muslims mushrik? :|

peace

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Allah recommends seeking wasila. Now wasila can be namaz, in which case seeking would be praying, it can be Quran in which case seeking would be reciting, it could be the Ahl al Bayt (a) in which case seeking could be reading their words which you believe in order to explain the Quran (as you do?),

Ok, but why would you want to do something other than the best form of wasila? That's what doesn't make sense to me.

and seeking can also be calling upon them as is recommended in countless books and narrations from them.

Where are these countless narrations? I've never seen a single one that could in any way be considered authentic (not talking about nade ali here). Can you post a few of them?

You may disagree with the method of seeking, but you can not label someone else's means of seeking wasila as 'shirk.' Even the sunni ulema refrain from calling shia kafir, how can you so easily - based on picking and choosing ayat from the Quran - label so many Muslims mushrik? :|

Picking and choosing? Did you see how many I posted? And how few get posted in response, and that those few don't even properly deal with the subject.

As for what the Sunnis do, I couldn't care less. Many of them believe in tawassul and istighatha as well, so they can hardly say anything.

Just to be clear though, I only consider it to be shirk when you are calling on other than Allah, asking for needs to be met. For example, wanting a child, recovery from illness, etc. If someone calls on the Imams (as) for them to pray for them, then I would consider it useless and unnecessary, but I'm not sure if that is shirk. However, at the very least, you would explictly need to be saying you are asking them to pray for you, not leave it in the intention.

Where it is clearly shirk in my view is when you say something like 'Ya Ali, cure me of this illness', 'Ya Ali, save me', or 'Ya Ali, bless me with a child'.

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