Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Sign in to follow this  
Haydar Husayn

Calling On Other Than Allah In The Quran

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

Haydar, Wahabis reject intercession, but there are some Sunnis who go to the grave of RasulAllah and ask intercession. Allah SWT will answer them. Thank you for calling me desperate. :angel:

I'm a Shia, not an anti-Wahhabi. I couldn't care less what they do, or what other Sunnis do. Most of the deviancy in our religion probably comes from the Sufi (Sunni) influence.

And yes, you are coming across as desperate to defend the indefensible. Allah tells you not to call on other than him, and so does Imam Ali (as), yet you want to clutch at non-existent straws about how the letter was addressed to an infallible.

Just answer me these two questions:

1) What if I am wrong? What is the worst that will happen to me?

2) What if you are wrong? What is the worst that will happen to you?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

(salam)

Wasilah al-Najat or the 'Means of Salvation' is the title of over 40 scientific treatises written by Shi'ah 'ulama'.[16]

Thus, as ascertained by Imami scholars, the Prophet (s) is the wasilah towards God for Muslims since he is the best exemplar and is in fact the 'Practical Qur'an'. So also is the Prophet's (s) infallible progeny ('a), who along with the Book of Allah (Holy Qur'an), is the immortal legacy of the Prophet and continuation of his path as borne out by the Hadith al-Thaqalayn which is unanimously confirmed by both Shi'ah and Sunni 'ulama'. Muslims, through the wasilah of these two, hold fast to divine laws and strive to attain Allah's proximity, since good deeds, obedience and adherence to the Qur'an, the Prophet (s) and his Infallible Ahl al-Bayt ('a) are the basis of shafa'at. Source: http://www.al-islam.org/mot/tawassul.htm#n13

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

*Sigh*

They have taken their doctors of law and their monks for lords besides Allah, and (also) the Messiah son of Marium and they were enjoined that they should serve one Allah only, there is no god but He; far from His glory be what they set up (with Him). [Qur'an 9:31, Shakir translation]

People need to learn to think for themselves. If you need the help of scholars on such a fundamental issue as Tawheed, then you are in trouble.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

*Sigh*

They have taken their doctors of law and their monks for lords besides Allah, and (also) the Messiah son of Marium and they were enjoined that they should serve one Allah only, there is no god but He; far from His glory be what they set up (with Him). [Qur'an 9:31, Shakir translation]

People need to learn to think for themselves. If you need the help of scholars on such a fundamental issue as Tawheed, then you are in trouble.

(bismillah)

(salam)

Yesterday you belittled the member Allahuakbar for the Islamic book which was posted:

That book is such a joke

You told sister Enlightened_x that she should stop following "those who came before you" then mentioned an ayah about unbelievers committing indecency:

And when they commit an indecency they say: We found our fathers doing this

I see that Brother muhibb-ali had two messages this morning that you ignored.

???

You did not respond to my quote about five intercessors:

The Intercessors are five: the Quran, one's near relatives, trusts (amanah), your Prophet, and the family of your Prophet (the Ahlul Bayt).

Why does your member title say "rock minded jaheel"?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You did not respond to my quote about five intercessors:

So, do you pray to the Quran, to your near relatives, and to your trusts too? If no, do you think that might mean that the purpose of that tradition is not a proof that we should be doing so for the latter two?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

HH, I just wanna mention that you had asked me regarding tafseer of the ayats of sura munafiqoon but here u are more then willing to post verses without the tafseer.

All those verses you posted, plz post tafseer as well so we can discuss further.

Can we all agree on one point:

thats is, if the Prophet (pbuh) was alive today, wouldnt you all go upto him and say " Ya Rasulullah (pbuh) plz ask Allah (aj) to forgive me"

At least we can all agree on that right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for the message, brother. According to the ayah that I posted above, the brothers of Prophet Yusuf AS were not asking Prophet Yusuf AS to forgive them. They were begging their father Prophet Ya'qub AS to ask Allah SWT to forgive them. Prophet Ya'qub AS promised to make intercession for them.

Edit: See my Post #19 above.

My dear Sister, as i said, i recommend reading the surah very well. One could argue that Nabi Ya'qoob (as) was more oppressed by the brothers than Yusuf (as). This is because Nabi Yusuf (as) was given a lot of comfort and power and Allah(swt) established him in the earth by the end of the story, whereas Nabi Ya'qoob (as) spend the story mourning, until he became blind as a result of it, until his vision came back.

Even while in prision (which the brothers had nothing to do with), Nabi Yusuf (as) spent the time doing da'wa and various things, but Nabi Ya'qoob (as) was still saddened and grieved.

So i would argue that the brothers oppressed Nabi Ya'qoob (as) more than Nabi Yusuf (as), so of course they should ask forgiveness from him. And anothet evidence for this is when the brothers realized that the 'aziz was Yusuf (as), they said "Allah has most surely favored you over us" (loose translation)

And Allah (swt) knows best

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

HH, I just wanna mention that you had asked me regarding tafseer of the ayats of sura munafiqoon but here u are more then willing to post verses without the tafseer.

All those verses you posted, plz post tafseer as well so we can discuss further.

Because those verses are all saying something clearly. You don't need tafseer to understand countless warnings not to call upon other than Allah. On the other hand, what you were trying to claim is not evident from the verses, so you need give the tafseer.

He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding. [3:7]

And the message of the Quran is clear:

Surely those who conceal the clear proofs and the guidance that We revealed after We made it clear in the Book for men, these it is whom Allah shall curse, and those who curse shall curse them (too). [2:159]

O followers of the Book! indeed Our Messenger has come to you making clear to you much of what you concealed of the Book and passing over much; indeed, there has come to you light and a clear Book from Allah; [5:15]

Shall I then seek a judge other than Allah? And He it is Who has revealed to you the Book (which is) made plain; and those whom We have given the Book know that it is revealed by your Lord with truth, therefore you should not be of the disputers. [6:114]

Alif Lam Ra (This is) a Book, whose verses are made decisive, then are they made plain, from the Wise, All-aware: [11:1]

Alif Lam Ra. These are the verses of the Book that makes (things) manifest. [12:1]

Alif Lam Ra. These are the verses of the Book and (of) a Quran that makes (things) clear. [15:1]

With clear arguments and scriptures; and We have revealed to you the Reminder that you may make clear to men what has been revealed to them, and that perhaps they may reflect. [16:44]

And on the day when We will raise up in every people a witness against them from among themselves, and bring you as a witness against these-- and We have revealed the Book to you explaining clearly everything, and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit. [16:89]

Can we all agree on one point:

thats is, if the Prophet (pbuh) was alive today, wouldnt you all go upto him and say " Ya Rasulullah (pbuh) plz ask Allah (aj) to forgive me"

At least we can all agree on that right?

No, I do not agree. If everyone did that, then the Prophet (pbuh) would hardly have time to move, with all the people going up to him. If you look at all the verses in the Quran, you will see that the only times people asked prophets to pray for their forgiveness was when those prophets themselves had been wronged.

Obviously it makes a lot more sense to ask the Prophet (pbuh) to pray for your forgivness when you have wronged him, than it does to ask him to pray for your forgiveness when it is for a sin that has nothing to do with him, and is between you and Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

(salam)

There are 61 topics at ShiaChat spelled tawassul and Haydar Husayn has to start a new topic about it? What is his motive?

Last night he was searching in a different topic for what he already posted there, in order to add it to this topic.

Let me ask you, Haydar Husayn, do you or do you not believe that we can say Ya Hussein? AS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ ^ @ HH: has got to be the silliest post I have ever seen from you...

The verses I provided were also clear, why did u demand a tafseer for them???

further more, its silly to say that the Prophet (pbuh) would be over whelmed by ppl asking him as to ask Allah (aj) for forgiveness as ppl dont ask for forgiveness 24/7 furthermore im sure u would be esteemed to be in his presence anyways and wouldnt be an everyday thing, basically u are providing a logistical issue which is more then hilarious.

Lastly, where did u come this conclusion that only if u wronged him, u need to seek forgiveness from him??? Thats a different issue, what I am saying is that the Prophet (pbuh) can ask Allah (aj) on your behalf for Allah (aj) to forgive your sins.

(bismillah)

063.005

YUSUFALI: And when it is said to them, "Come, the Messenger of Allah will pray for your forgiveness", they turn aside their heads, and thou wouldst see them turning away their faces in arrogance.

PICKTHAL: And when it is said unto them: Come! The messenger of Allah will ask forgiveness for you! they avert their faces and thou seest them turning away, disdainful.

SHAKIR: And when it is said to them: Come, the Messenger of Allah will ask forgiveness for you, they turn back their heads and you may see them turning away while they are big with pride.

063.006

YUSUFALI: It is equal to them whether thou pray for their forgiveness or not. Allah will not forgive them. Truly Allah guides not rebellious transgressors.

PICKTHAL: Whether thou ask forgiveness for them or ask not forgiveness for them is all one for them; Allah will not forgive them. Lo! Allah guideth not the evil-living folk.

SHAKIR: It is alike to them whether you beg forgiveness for them or do not beg forgiveness for them; Allah will never forgive them; surely Allah does not guide the transgressing people.

According to the quran, if the Prophet (pbuh) was alive and you were urged to ask the prophet (pbuh) to ask Allah (aj) for forgiveness, then you sir are a...

REBELLIOUS TRANSGRESSOR!!!

So i hope that you rethink the situation and let me ask once again:

If the Prophet (pbuh) was infront of you, you wouldn't take the opportunity to say. "Ya Rasulullah (pbuh) please ask Allah (aj) to forgive my sins"

think about it again...

Edited by La fata illa Ali

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yesterday you belittled the member Allahuakbar for the Islamic book which was posted:

I belittled the book, not him. What do you want me to say, that the book is good, when it isn't?

You told sister Enlightened_x that she should stop following "those who came before you" then mentioned an ayah about unbelievers committing indecency:

Considering the other verses I posted, I think it's clear why point was about not following those that came before you, not that I was accusing her of committing an indecency.

I see that Brother muhibb-ali had two messages this morning that you ignored.

Because what he posted wasn't relevant. I am looking for clear proof that it is permissible to call on others than Allah, and that proof has to be substantial in order to go against what the Quran says. As you know, any hadith that contradicts the Quran is to be rejected. So I would need words from the Imams (as) that deal with this issue in some depth.

You did not respond to my quote about five intercessors:

Again, this is talking about on the Day of Judgement.

Nahjul Balagha, Sermon 175

And know that this Qur'an is an adviser who never deceives, a leader who never misleads and a narrator who never speaks a lie. No one will sit beside this Qur'an but that when he rises he will achieve one addition or one diminution - addition in his guidance or elimination in his (spiritual) blindness. You should also know that no one will need anything after (guidance from) the Qur'an and no one will be free from want before (guidance from) the Qur'an.

Therefore, seek cure from it for your ailments and seek its assistance in your distresses. It contains a cure for the biggest diseases, namely unbelief, hypocrisy, revolt and misguidance. Pray to Allah through it and turn to Allah with its love. Do not ask the people through it. There is nothing like it through which the people should turn to Allah, the Sublime.

Know that it is an interceder and its intercession will be accepted. It is a speaker who is testified. For whoever the Qur'an intercedes on the Day of Judgement, its intercession for him would be accepted. He about whom the Qur'an speaks ill on the Day of Judgement shall testify to it.

Now, what people need to think about is whether the Quran will interceed for them on the Day of Judgement, when they are busy ignoring and explaining away so much of it.

Why does your member title say "rock minded jaheel"?

I reckon you guys are giving Haydar Husayn tooo much attention. He has proved his jahilee mentality.

Best option with such rock minded people is to ignore them. No need to allow him justify his retarded thoughts.

Just ignore the jaheel !!!

There are 61 topics at ShiaChat spelled tawassul and Haydar Husayn has to start a new topic about it? What is his motive?

Last night he was searching in a different topic for what he already posted there, in order to add it to this topic.

Let me ask you, Haydar Husayn, do you or do you not believe that we can say Ya Hussein? AS

Here we go... What is my motive? Am I a Wahhabi? etc, etc.

My only motive is to warn people against Shirk.

Sure, we can say Ya Husayn, as a slogan. Not as in calling upon him.

Lastly, where did u come this conclusion that only if u wronged him, u need to seek forgiveness from him??? Thats a different issue, what I am saying is that the Prophet (pbuh) can ask Allah (aj) on your behalf for Allah (aj) to forgive your sins.

(bismillah)

063.005

YUSUFALI: And when it is said to them, "Come, the Messenger of Allah will pray for your forgiveness", they turn aside their heads, and thou wouldst see them turning away their faces in arrogance.

PICKTHAL: And when it is said unto them: Come! The messenger of Allah will ask forgiveness for you! they avert their faces and thou seest them turning away, disdainful.

SHAKIR: And when it is said to them: Come, the Messenger of Allah will ask forgiveness for you, they turn back their heads and you may see them turning away while they are big with pride.

063.006

YUSUFALI: It is equal to them whether thou pray for their forgiveness or not. Allah will not forgive them. Truly Allah guides not rebellious transgressors.

PICKTHAL: Whether thou ask forgiveness for them or ask not forgiveness for them is all one for them; Allah will not forgive them. Lo! Allah guideth not the evil-living folk.

SHAKIR: It is alike to them whether you beg forgiveness for them or do not beg forgiveness for them; Allah will never forgive them; surely Allah does not guide the transgressing people.

According to the quran, if the Prophet (pbuh) was alive and you were one who didnt approach the prophet (pbuh) to ask for forgiveness, the you sir are a...

REBELLIOUS TRANSGRESSOR!!!

So i hope that you rethink the situation and let me ask once again:

Maybe you hadn't notice, but those verses are from Surah al-Munafiqun.

When the hypocrites come to you, they say: We bear witness that you are most surely Allah's Messenger; and Allah knows that you are most surely His Messenger, and Allah bears witness that the hypocrites are surely liars. [63:1]

They make their oaths a shelter, and thus turn away from Allah's way; surely evil is that which they do. [63:2]

That is because they believe, then disbelieve, so a seal is set upon their hearts so that they do not understand. [63:3]

And when you see them, their persons will please you, and If they speak, you will listen to their speech; (they are) as if they were big pieces of wood clad with garments; they think every cry to be against them. They are the enemy, therefore beware of them; may Allah destroy them, whence are they turned back? [63:4]

And when it is said to them: Come, the Messenger of Allah will ask forgiveness for you, they turn back their heads and you may see them turning away while they are big with pride. [64:5]

So yeah, I'm pretty sure the hypocrites of the time counted as people that wronged the Prophet (pbuh).

If the Prophet (pbuh) was infront of you, you wouldn't take the opportunity to say. "Ya Rasulullah (pbuh) please ask Allah (aj) to forgive my sins"

think about it again...

No. If the Prophet (pbuh) deems me worthy of keeping in his prayers, then alhamdulillah, but I wouldn't necessarily go up to him and ask him to unless I had wronged him. Although there would be nothing wrong with asking him to pray for you of course. I just don't see the need, especially as insha'Allah he would interceed for me on the Day of Judgement anyway.

Regardless, this is a complete side issue. The topic is about calling on others than Allah.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, do you pray to the Quran, to your near relatives, and to your trusts too? If no, do you think that might mean that the purpose of that tradition is not a proof that we should be doing so for the latter two?

(bismillah)

(salam)

^^^ Bro, nobody is praying to the five intercessors. The five intercessors are beseeching Allah SWT for our benefit, inshaAllah.

The Holy Qur'an knows how many times we open it and how many times we cry over the words written there.

I reckon you guys are giving Haydar Husayn tooo much attention. He has proved his jahilee mentality.

Best option with such rock minded people is to ignore them. No need to allow him justify his retarded thoughts.

Just ignore the jaheel !!!

Haydar, thank you ^^^ for explaining that. :lol:

So i would argue that the brothers oppressed Nabi Ya'qoob more than Nabi Yusuf , so of course they should ask forgiveness from him. And anothet evidence for this is when the brothers realized that the 'aziz was Yusuf , they said "Allah has most surely favored you over us" (loose translation)

And Allah (swt) knows best

^^^ ImamAliLover, thank you. Allah SWT knows best.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Today you have confirmed what u are to the whole world, congratulations.

salam salam.

And certainly We have created for hell many of the jinn and the men; they have hearts with which they do not understand, and they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear; they are as cattle, nay, they are in worse errors; these are the heedless ones. [7:179]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

(salam)

[shakir 17:71] (Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam

Ya Ali AS! Ya Hossein AS! Ya Imam Zaman AJ!

Edited by hameedeh

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And there are some among men who take for themselves objects of worship besides Allah, whom they love as they love Allah, and those who believe are stronger in love for Allah and O, that those who are unjust had seen, when they see the chastisement, that the power is wholly Allah's and that Allah is severe in requiting (evil). When those who were followed shall renounce those who followed (them), and they see the chastisement and their ties are cut asunder. And those who followed shall say: Had there been for us a return, then we would renounce them as they have renounced us. Thus will Allah show them their deeds to be intense regret to them, and they shall not come forth from the fire. [2:165-167]

He causes the night to enter in upon the day, and He causes the day to enter in upon the night, and He has made subservient (to you) the sun and the moon; each one follows its course to an appointed time; this is Allah, your Lord, His is the kingdom; and those whom you call upon besides Him do not control a straw. If you call on them they shall not hear your call, and even if they could hear they shall not answer you; and on the resurrection day they will deny your associating them (with Allah); and none can inform you like the One Who is Aware. [35:13-14]

And who is in greater error than he who calls besides Allah upon those that will not answer him till the day of resurrection and they are heedless of their call? And when men are gathered together they shall be their enemies, and shall be deniers of their worshipping (them). [47:5-6]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

*Sigh*

They have taken their doctors of law and their monks for lords besides Allah, and (also) the Messiah son of Marium and they were enjoined that they should serve one Allah only, there is no god but He; far from His glory be what they set up (with Him). [Qur'an 9:31, Shakir translation]

People need to learn to think for themselves. If you need the help of scholars on such a fundamental issue as Tawheed, then you are in trouble.

Bingo!

Taqleed is probably the biggest single problem in the shia ummah

people are like sheep and can't use their reason

(bismillah)

(salam)

There are 61 topics at ShiaChat spelled tawassul and Haydar Husayn has to start a new topic about it? What is his motive?

Last night he was searching in a different topic for what he already posted there, in order to add it to this topic.

Let me ask you, Haydar Husayn, do you or do you not believe that we can say Ya Hussein? AS

Maybe because he has read the Qu'ran and acknowledges the COUNTLESS, NUMEROUS warnings not to commit shirk like the ignorant pagan Arabs at the time of Muhammad?

If you read the Qu'ran cover to cover, you will see how many times this issue is mentioned. Hayder obviously is sensitive to the warning from Allah like all Muslims should be..unfortunately, people want to follow their desires and what they see other people doing..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe because he has read the Qu'ran and acknowledges the COUNTLESS, NUMEROUS warnings not to commit shirk like the ignorant pagan Arabs at the time of Muhammad?

Hey Hey Hey!!! show some respect! Muhammad (pbuh)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

another good thread hayder, i agre with you as usual

seems some people would rather follow their desires rather than follow the word of Allah

1 – al-Husayn b. Muhammad al-Ash`ari from Mu`alla b. Muhammad form al-Hasan b. `Ali al-Washsha, and from a number of our companions from Ahmad b. Muhammad from Ibn Faddal, all from `Asim b. Humayd from Muhammad b. Muslim from Abu Ja`far عليه السلام. He said: Amir al-Mu’mineen عليه السلام delivered a sermon to the people, and he said: O people, the beginning of the occurring of tumults is only whims that are followed and rules (ahkam) that are innovated, opposing in it the book of Allah. In it, men (blindly) follow (or, copy) men. And were falsehood unmixed, it would not be obscure upon a person who has a mind. And were the truth unmixed, there would be no variance (ikhtilaf). However, from this a handful of mixed fresh and dry herbs is taken, and from this a handful of mixed fresh and dry herbs, and they are mixed and come together. So there Shaytan takes hold over his loyalists. And saved are those who the best outcome precedes them from Allah. (muwaththaq ka’s-sahih)

http://www.*******.org/hadiths/beliefs-and-ethics/innovations-opinion-and-analogies

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Haydar Husayn asks for hadith, people give him hadith, he cries foul. He asks for tafseer, he cries foul when we give it to him. He asks for Quran aya against how he interprets verses he has brought that he says are against tawassul, we bring them to clarify what exactly those verses really mean and he ignores them. I've yet to see on what authority he makes his judgement, except some hadith that can be interpreted either way (he's more than willing to 'worship scholars' when he can work words transmitted to what he wants them to say) whereas we make our judgement not only based on the authority of scholars who have studied the issue far more than we have, but also plain reasoning from the Quran that he claims so clearly supports his view, which it doesn't. HH just rejects whatever doesn't support his opinion under the pretense of "I don't worship scholars," and "Oh, well, that is clearly a Sunni/Sufi influence." HH has already decided that anything that doesn't support his view is a "Sunni/Sufi influence," introduced to Shi'ism with no actual authority to prove this other than his own wants, before it is even presented or examined (as though something transmitted or partaken by the Sunnis or Sufis necessarily makes it wrong or not Shia, I guess Shia apologetics using Sunni sources is pointless then) and by what authority does he say that this or that is an inherently Sunni/Sufi idea that was later introduced? He just says it when it contradicts what he has decided for himself is true based purely on his own whims. He's already presupposed his reasoning is greater than centuries of scholars of Shia, Sunni, and Sufi based purely on the virtue of it being his own reasoning which is, at best, circular.

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Haydar Husayn asks for hadith, people give him hadith, he cries foul.

Show me the hadith that clearly proves tawassul as it is practiced now? Not a hadith you try to infer it from, but one that actually explictly proves tawassul

He asks for tafseer, he cries foul when we give it to him.

I meant tafseer from the Imams (as), not Poyaa/Ali speculation.

He asks for Quran aya against how he interprets verses he has brought that he says are against tawassul, we bring them to clarify what exactly those verses really mean and he ignores them.

The verses say don't call upon other than Allah. I'm not interpreting anything. If you want to provide clarification, then do so using the words of the Imams, not your own. That is what I did with regards to 5:35. I quoted Imam Ali (as) on what the best means of seeking nearness to Allah is.

I've yet to see on what authority he makes his judgement, except some hadith that can be interpreted either way (he's more than willing to 'worship scholars' when he can work words transmitted to what he wants them to say) whereas we make our judgement not only based on the authority of scholars who have studied the issue far more than we have, but also plain reasoning from the Quran that he claims so clearly supports his view, which it doesn't. HH just rejects whatever doesn't support his opinion under the pretense of "I don't worship scholars," and "Oh, well, that is clearly a Sunni/Sufi influence."

If you take the words of the scholars over the ones of the Quran, the Prophet (pbuh), and the Imams (as), then yes, you are worshipping them.

HH has already decided that anything that doesn't support his view is a "Sunni/Sufi influence," introduced to Shi'ism with no actual authority to prove this other than his own wants, before it is even been presented or examined (as though something transmitted or partaken by the Sunnis or Sufis necessarily makes it wrong or not Shia, I guess Shia apologetics using Sunni sources is pointless then) and by what authority does he say that this or that is an inherently Sunni/Sufi idea that was later introduced? He just says it when it contradicts what he has decided for himself is true. He's already presupposed his reasoning is greater than centuries of scholars of Shia, Sunni, and Sufi based purely on the virtue of it being his own reasoning which is, at best, circular.

We use Sunni sources to convince Sunnis, because that is a proof for them. It is not a proof for us. We aren't supposed to take our religion from Sunni sources.

And the reason I say it is a Sufi influence is because these beliefs are not to be found in our authentic books of ahadith, or the works of the classical scholars. Rather, thy came about as the Sufi influence became stronger. The Sufis of course are well-known for believing in tawassul, and other such things. Somehow I don't think they got that from us.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If we can make dua to Allah and our dua be accepted, praises heard, and thanks given all without an intercessor then whats the point of viciously promoting the practice? Allah is the All Hearing, Allah is the All Seeing, Allah is the most gracious, Allah is the most merciful, and so on and so forth. So at the end of the day when it comes to this matter of tawassul prior to that which we KNOW comes on the day of judgement, what is the point?

I'd rather just take my chanced and do what Al-Quran says to do on the matter of tawassul instead of risking it based on dua and ahadith that may possibly be in contradiction with Al-Quran.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If we can make dua to Allah and our dua be accepted, praises heard, and thanks given all without an intercessor then whats the point of viciously promoting the practice? Allah is the All Hearing, Allah is the All Seeing, Allah is the most gracious, Allah is the most merciful, and so on and so forth. So at the end of the day when it comes to this matter of tawassul prior to that which we KNOW comes on the day of judgement, what is the point?

I'd rather just take my chanced and do what Al-Quran says to do on the matter of tawassul instead of risking it based on dua and ahadith that may possibly be in contradiction with Al-Quran.

(bismillah)

(salam)

You cannot know the Quran al Samit (silent) without knowing the Quran an Natiq (voiced), the two can never seperate, and you are not heeding the Quran an Natiq

The Quran will be our intercessor on the Day of Judgment as it is now.

Edited by thenamelessone

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1 – al-Husayn b. Muhammad al-Ash`ari from Mu`alla b. Muhammad form al-Hasan b. `Ali al-Washsha, and from a number of our companions from Ahmad b. Muhammad from Ibn Faddal, all from `Asim b. Humayd from Muhammad b. Muslim from Abu Ja`far Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. He said: Amir al-Mu’mineen Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã delivered a sermon to the people, and he said: O people, the beginning of the occurring of tumults is only whims that are followed and rules (ahkam) that are innovated, opposing in it the book of Allah. In it, men (blindly) follow (or, copy) men.

http://www.tashayyu....n-and-analogies

(bismillah)

(salam)

Haydar Husayn, the Imams AS are not the men (blindly) following (or, copying) men that you have mentioned in ^^^ this hadith. They are far superior to this. To quote that hadith that Imam Ali AS said not to follow men, to use it as an example that we cannot make tawassul, is ridiculous. Allah SWT has granted the Holy Ahlul Bayt AS the ability to make intercession (ash-shafa'a), therefore, we are allowed to make tawassul (beseeching and supplicating). Only those who love Ahlul Bayt AS and the awliya will be able to drink from al-Kawthar.

7 Ü Ýí ßÊÇÈ ÇáÎÕÇá ÝíãÇ Úáã ÃãíÑ ÇáãÄãäíä (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) ÇÕÍÇÈå ãä ÇáÇÑÈÚãÃÉ ÈÇÈ ããÇ íÕáÍ ááãÓáã Ýí Ïíäå æÏäíÇå: ÇäÇ ãÚ ÑÓæá Çááå (Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå) æãÚì ÚÊÑÊì Úáì ÇáÍæÖ Ýãä ÇÑÇÏäÇ ÝáíÃÎÐ ÈÞæáäÇ¡ æáíÚãá ÈÚãáäÇ¡ ÝÇä áßá Ãåá äÌíÈÇ æáäÇ äÌíÈ æáäÇ ÔÝÇÚÉ¡ æáÇåá ãæÏÊäÇ ÔÝÇÚÉ¡ ÝÊäÇÝÓæÇ Ýí áÞÇÆäÇ Úáì ÇáÍæÖ¡ ÝÇäÇ äÐæÏ Úäå ÇÚÏÇÁäÇ æäÓÞì ãäå ÇÍÈÇÁäÇ æÇæáíÇÁäÇ¡ ãä ÔÑÈ ãäå ÔÑÈÉ áã íÙãà ÈÚÏåÇ ÇÈÏÇ ÍæÖäÇ Ýíå ãËÚÈÇä (1) íäÕÈÇä ãä ÇáÌäÉ¡ ÇÍÏåãÇ ãä ÊÓäíã æÇáÇÎÑ ãä ãÚíä¡ Úáì ÍÇÝÊíå ÇáÒÚÝÑÇä¡ æÍÕÇå ÇááÄáÄ [ æÇáíÇÞæÊ ] æåæ ÇáßæËÑ.

7 – In the book al-Khisal in what Amir al-Mu’mineen Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã taught his companions from the four hundred, the chapter (or, gate) from what is befitting the Muslim in his religion and his dunya: I am with the Messenger of Allah Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå, and with me is my progeny upon the Pond (al-hawd). So whoever wants us then he is to take our saying, and to act by our act. For verily for every people there is a noble one, and to us is a noble one and to us is intercession. And for the people of our intimacy there is intercession. So compete in our meeting upon the Pond, for verily we defend it from our enemies and we give to drink from it to our lovers and our awliya. Whoever drinks a drink from it shall never be thirsty after it, our Pond in which is two waterways streaming from the Garden. One of them is from Tasnim and the other is from a fountain, upon its brink is saffron, and it pebbles are pearl [and sapphire], and it is al-Kawthar.

http://www.tashayyu....n-and-analogies

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

(salam)

Intercession on the day of judgement is not tawassul, it is shafa'a

- The Qur'an clearly says call only on Allah (swt)

- The ahadith do not explicitly say call upon The A'immah [as]

- The ahadith do say you can make dua and say "bi haqqi muhammad wa alihi" [which is what Prophet Adam [as] done]

Wouldn't it be safe to stick to the Qur'an and the way that Prophet Adam [as] made dua, than to try and justify an act from the ahadith?

Worst case scenario that tawassul is correct and I dont practice it: I might be a bit saddened I didn't call upon my Imams [as] in the dunya, but I would forget about it because the world would have ended and I would be entering paradise insha'Allah

Worst case scenario that tawassul is wrong and you practiced it: You realise you did shirk [after dying] and you get punished for doing shirk.

As you can see, even if tawassul is correct, it is much safer to not do it, and instead ask Allah (swt) and say bi haqqi muhammad wa alihi, because not only are you still seeking the help of Allah (swt) through the A'immah [as] you are not asking the A'immah therefore you are not going against the Qur'an [which says call only on Allah (swt)] and you are sticking to the narrations which mention that this type of dua is allowed.

(wasalam)

(bismillah)

(wasalam)

Brother, you are repeating yourself. You said this all before and I understand what you are saying. I said to Haydar Husayn that he cannot use that hadith about men blindly following and copying men, because Imam Ali AS said that about other men, not about himself or the Holy Ahlul Bayt AS or the Awliya who love and follow Ahlul Bayt AS.

I said: Allah SWT has granted the Holy Ahlul Bayt AS the ability to make intercession (ash-shafa'a), therefore, we are allowed to make tawassul (beseeching and supplicating). I understand that you don't believe in Tawassul right now. I am fine with that. I wouldn't want you to believe in something you don't want to.

I said: Only those who love Ahlul Bayt AS and the awliya will be able to drink from al-Kawthar. InshaAllah we all make it there. :cry:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Haydar Husayn, the Imams AS are not the men (blindly) following (or, copying) men that you have mentioned in ^^^ this hadith. They are far superior to this. To quote that hadith that Imam Ali AS said not to follow men, to use it as an example that we cannot make tawassul, is ridiculous.

I think you have completely misunderstood my point in quoting that hadith. Of course it doesn't refer to the Imams (as), who we are supposed to follow blindly. That hadith also has nothing to do with tawassul.

Allah SWT has granted the Holy Ahlul Bayt AS the ability to make intercession (ash-shafa'a), therefore, we are allowed to make tawassul (beseeching and supplicating). Only those who love Ahlul Bayt AS and the awliya will be able to drink from al-Kawthar.

There is no logical connection between the fact that the Ahlulbayt (as) have been given the right to interceed on our behalf on the Day of Judgement and the need to seek their intercession in prayer. Neither does loving them necessitate having to seek their intercession in prayer.

Instead of trying to infer tawassul from other beliefs, why don't you provide a hadith that clearly proves tawassul? For example one where the Imams (as) explictly intruct their followers to do it. If this concept is so important, then surely the Imams would have taught it somewhere.

Because, although you keep ignoring them, I have provided explicit ahadith that say the opposite.

Nahjul Balagha, Letter 31

Develop the habit of patience against sufferings, calamities and adversities. This virtue of patience is one of the highest values of morality and nobility of character and it is the best habit which one can develop. Trust in Allah and let your mind seek His protection in every calamity and suffering because you will thus entrust yourself and your affairs to the Best Trustee and to the Mightiest Guardian. Do not seek help or protection from anybody but Allah. Reserve your prayers, your requests, your solicitations, your supplications, and your entreaties to Him and Him alone because to grant, to give, to confer and to bestow, as well as to withhold, to deprive, to refuse, and to debar, lies only in His Power. Ask as much of His Blessings and seek as much of His Guidance as you can.

[...]

Realize this truth, my son, that the Lord who owns and holds the treasures of Paradise and the earth has given you permission to ask and beg for them and He has promised to grant your prayers. He has told you to pray for His Favours that they may be granted to you and to ask for His Blessings that they may be bestowed upon you. He has not appointed guards to prevent your prayers reaching Him. Nor is there any need for anybody to intercede before Him on your behalf.

If you go back upon your promises, if your break your vows, or start doing things that you have repented of, He will not immediately punish you nor does He refuse His Blessings in haste and if you repent once again He neither taunts you nor betrays you though you may fully deserve both, but He accepts your penitence and pardons you. He never grudges His Forgiveness nor refuses His Mercy, on the contrary He has decreed repentance as a virtue and pious deed. The Merciful Lord has ordered that every evil deed of yours will be counted as one and a good deed and pious action will be rewarded tenfold. He has left the door of repentance open. He hears you whenever you call Him. He accepts your prayer whenever you pray to Him. Invoke Him to grant you your heart's desire, lay before Him the secrets of your heart, tell Him about all the calamities that have befallen you and misfortunes which face you, and beseech His help to overcome them. You may invoke His Help and Support in difficulties and distresses.

Your point about this being addressed to an infallible was completely refuted, and you didn't offer a response to it.

Also, this hadith is very explicit:

9 – And from Muhammad b. al-Hasan from as-Saffar from al-Hasan b. Musa the wood merchant from Yazid b. Ishaq Sha`ar from `Abbas b. Yazid from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: I said to him: Verily these `awamm claim that shirk is more obscure than the creeping of the ant in a dark night upon the black haircloth. So he said: The servant is not a mushrik until he prays to other than Allah, or slaughters (an animal) for other than Allah, or supplicates to other than Allah `azza wa jalla.

http://www.tashayyu....tasy/chapter-10

Edited by Haydar Husayn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And they serve beside Allah what can neither harm them nor profit them, and they say: These are our intercessors with Allah. Say: Do you (presume to) inform Allah of what He knows not in the heavens and the earth? Glory be to Him, and supremely exalted is He above what they set up (with Him). [10:18]

And when Our clear communications are recited to them you will find denial on the faces of those who disbelieve; they almost spring upon those who recite to them Our communications. Say: Shall I inform you of what is worse than this? The fire; Allah has promised it to those who disbelieve; and how evil the resort! [22:72]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Imam Ali (as) was a true Muwahid and Muslim..he would NEVER promote an act such as making dua for anyone but Allah swt..those letters prove that. And if anyone says "he was talking to his sons", then why wouldn't his sons supplicate to Ashraf al Anbiya, Muhammad Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå, the one who has the highest status with Allah?

Edited by Alf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

(salam)

Ya Allah. I admit that in my mind tawassul and intercession are two positive holy things that I believe in.

Sorry for intertwining the two and not nitpickingly separating them out. Y'all have taught me a lot here.

Tonight our Islamic Center is having a meeting for the birthday of the Holy Prophet SA and 6th Imam AS.

Just found out that after maghrib and isha prayers and recitation of the Holy Qur'an, we will read Dua Tawassul.

Then speech and nasheed. This is going to be great, inshaAllah. You are all in my prayers. :wub:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...