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In the Name of God بسم الله

Calling On Other Than Allah In The Quran

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(bismillah) (salam) A collection of ayats from the Quran about calling on and relying on other than Allah عز و جل. All translations by Shakir. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek. [1:5] And when

Indeed , we should always call upon Allah to receive guidance from him .. his guidance may be send by an Imam ... we can as well call the Imam for help . You have to make the distinction between wors

(bismillah) (salam) [shakir 43:86] And those whom they call upon besides Him have no authority for intercession, but he who bears witness of the truth and they know (him). [Pooya/Ali Commentary 43:86]

I'm sorry, but I don't agree. The Quran is very clear on this issue. Do not call on other than Allah, full stop. This of course is not the same thing as asking for your mother. The kind of calling many people do towards the Imams (as) is exactly the type of calling that is reserved for Allah سبحانه وتعالى.

Aside from that, there isn't anywhere near enough evidence from the ahadith to support this practice.

The quran meant to not call upon jesus (Christianity ) or do not call upon Judaism .. but just upon Allah ..

each time i make a tasbih ''Ya Umal baneen'' .. all my hajjat realize ..and so do other people . it's not coincidence , i don't need a proof , i just need faith .

People tend to ask for Ahadith and ahadith.. but these ahadiths (sayings in arabic) are precious and each of them is written purpose . Back in the days , these writing materials (..cause they used to write on the skin of the animal.. ) weren't available for everyone and Imam wouldn't write ''Call me and I'll answer you'' That's just illogical to write that...but he would certainly say ''Ask me, and I'll insert you in my prayers ''

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i don't think you're understanding what i am saying .. i gave you some very good points , but you keep refuting .. This is not called a discussion , it is called a debate .. and i can continue until the duhoor of the Imam if I don't stop now ..and trust me, you won't change your view .

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i don't think you're understanding what i am saying .. i gave you some very good points , but you keep refuting .. This is not called a discussion , it is called a debate .. and i can continue until the duhoor of the Imam if I don't stop now ..and trust me, you won't change your view .

It's hard for me to change my view if you don't give me any proof. I have given you mine, and as the Quran says "bring your proof if you are truthful". You can't just say proof isn't needed, all you need is faith. Because in that case, the Christians and the Jews could have said that as well.

And they say: None shall enter the garden (or paradise) except he who is a Jew or a Christian. These are their vain desires. Say: Bring your proof if you are truthful. [2:111]

Or, Who originates the creation, then reproduces it and Who gives you sustenance from the heaven and the earth. Is there a god With Allah? Say: Bring your proof if you are truthful. [27:64]

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Most of the verse you quote are directed at specific individuals, particularly the idolatrous pagans who prayed to statues and many false gods. As far as calling on those whom God actually ordained and sent, I see very little evidence against calling on them. You take Quranic verses targeting pagans and try to make them seem general. Prove to me that Allah says "don't call on my servants to help you by my blessing and permission," and not just simply "stop worshiping other gods and thinking I have issued offspring from myself, whether you think that offspring is some pagan god or one of my sent ones."

Yes, God asks us to call upon him, yes he asks not to worship anyone besides him, he says not to take any other gods beside him. We know this, but in all these posts that I see you make, you quote many Quranic verses that are directed at specific individuals who were worshipping other gods or taking God's actual sent ones such as angels and prophets as being gods themselves, not those believing in servants of God who watch over us and help us and answer our requests by HIS own permission and blessing.

Also, we're not "calling on anyone but God," whether we are praying to God directly or praying to his sent ones, we are calling on HIM regardless. there's no difference. The difference this has with the pagan ideas of polytheism at the time was that polytheism believed that even if there was a much greater god, the actions of the different gods could veto the decisions of other gods, including the king of gods.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

[shakir 43:86] And those whom they call upon besides Him have no authority for intercession, but he who bears witness of the truth and they know (him).

That intercession is on the Day of Judgement, and has nothing to do with calling on other than Allah, which is clearly against the Quran.

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 43:86]

Refer to the commentary of Baqarah: 48 for intercession. Also refer to Baqarah: 255; Maryam: 87; TaHa: 109; Yunus: 3; Anbiya : 28 and Saba: 23.

According to this verse he who bears witness to the truth has the power of intercession. Refer to the commentary of Hud : 17 and Rad : 43 according to which Ali ibn abi Talib is the witness. As the greatest witness (shahid) Imam Husayn (refer to the commentary of Saffat: 107 for dhibhin azim) has the power of intercession.

No hadith from Imams quoted = speculation.

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Sayed Moustafa Al-Qazwini has an eloquent yet simple explanation to the concept of intercession in his book Inquires about Shia'a Islam.

From the Islamic Educational Center of Orange Country: Pages 70-77 in the PDF file.

http://iecoc.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Inquiries_About_Shia_Islam_2nd_Ed.pdf

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That intercession is on the Day of Judgement, and has nothing to do with calling on other than Allah, which is clearly against the Quran.

prove it's only referring to the Day of Judgement. Whenever we bring you anything to suggest that intercession occurs now and today, you just write it off as just referring to the Day of Judgement, but I never see you bring anyting that verifies that it is referring to intercession on Day of Judgement and Day of Judgement ALONE.

----------

Those who sustain the Throne (of Allah) and those around it Sing Glory and Praise to their Lord; believe in Him; and implore Forgiveness for those who believe: "Our Lord! Thy Reach is over all things, in Mercy and Knowledge. Forgive, then, those who turn in Repentance, and follow Thy Path; and preserve them from the Penalty of the Blazing Fire!

"And grant, our Lord! that they enter the Gardens of Eternity, which Thou hast promised to them, and to the righteous among their fathers, their wives, and their posterity! For Thou art (He), the Exalted in Might, Full of Wisdom.

"And preserve them from (all) ills; and any whom Thou dost preserve from ills that Day,- on them wilt Thou have bestowed Mercy indeed: and that will be truly (for them) the highest Achievement".

Sura 40:7-9 (Yusuf Ali)

-----------

If that isn't intercession happening in real time I don't know what is. And there's also the situation with Prophet Yaqub (as) interceding for his sons

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On 2/7/2012 at 10:38 PM, Allahuakbar said:

Sayed Moustafa Al-Qazwini has an eloquent yet simple explanation to the concept of intercession in his book Inquires about Shia'a Islam.

From the Islamic Educational Center of Orange Country: Pages 70-77 in the PDF file.

http://iecoc.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Inquiries_About_Shia_Islam_2nd_Ed.pdf

 

(bismillah)

(salam)

Thank you. See pages 62-69 for intercession by Prophet SA and Imams AS. The 12th Imam AJ starts on page 70.

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And blessed is He Whose is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and what is between them, and with Him is the knowledge of the hour, and to Him shall you be brought back. [43:85]

And those whom they call upon besides Him have no authority for intercession, but he who bears witness of the truth and they know (him). [43:86]

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And those whom they call upon besides Him have no authority for intercession, but he who bears witness of the truth and they know (him). [43:86]

Again, where are we calling on any "besides " that is "to the exclusion of," Allah? You're claiming we are ascribing to them an independence and from God and authority that we don't even believe anyone has.

This is referring to the polytheists and their system in which if God wanted to visit a calamity on someone the collective force of the other gods would veto it, regardless of if it was his express will or not. Intercession on the behalf of someone to Allah, pleading with him, is not vetoing his actions. You need to research your polytheism.

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23
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(bismillah)

(salam)

Calling out to Prophet SA or Imams AS is symbolic, not literal. If a man is in a car accident and calls out for a pedestrian to help him, is he committing shirk (heresy) because he is asking a human to help him instead of God? Of course not. You call out to those who Allah SWT loves, the Holy Ahlul Bayt AS, so that Allah SWT will help you because of His love for them.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Calling out to Prophet SA or Imams AS is symbolic, not literal. If a man is in a car accident and calls out for a pedestrian to help him, is he committing shirk (heresy) because he is asking a human to help him instead of God? Of course not. You call out to those who Allah SWT loves, the Holy Ahlul Bayt AS, so that Allah SWT will help you because of His love for them.

All help comes from Allah.

That book is such a joke, I don't know if I can even be bothered to respond in any depth. I'll limit myself to quoting this bit:

Code for: I can't disprove it, but I don't like it so it's wrong.

Look, if you can't process the reasoning of it, that's not our problem.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

قَالُوا يَا أَبَانَا اسْتَغْفِرْ لَنَا ذُنُوبَنَا إِنَّا كُنَّا خَاطِئِينَ {97}

[shakir 12:97] They [The brothers of Yusuf] said: O our father! ask forgiveness of our faults for us, surely we were sinners.

قَالَ سَوْفَ أَسْتَغْفِرُ لَكُمْ رَبِّي ۖ إِنَّهُ هُوَ الْغَفُورُ الرَّحِيمُ {98}

[shakir 12:98] He said: I will ask for you forgiveness from my Lord; surely He is the Forgiving, the Merciful.

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Again, where are we calling on any "besides " that is "to the exclusion of," Allah?

Besides also means "in addition to". Check your dictionary. Also it makes no sense to say it meant to the exclusion of Allah, since the polytheists of the time also believed in Allah, and would call on him.

You're claiming we are ascribing to them an independence and from God and authority that we don't even believe anyone has.

No, I am not claiming that, and neither is the Quran. Show me where in those verses it says those the mushriks called upon, or the people of the book called upon, were independent of Allah?

This is referring to the polytheists and their system in which if God wanted to visit a calamity on someone the collective force of the other gods would veto it, regardless of if it was his express will or not. Intercession on the behalf of someone to Allah, pleading with him, is not vetoing his actions. You need to research your polytheism.

Pure speculation.

Code for: I can't disprove it, but I don't like it so it's wrong.

Look, if you can't process the reasoning of it, that's not our problem.

No, not at all. More like anyone that is convinced by the poor arguments contained in that book is probably so brainwashed that there is no point trying to debate with them. However, I may go into more detail later on if I think it's worth it.

(bismillah)

(salam)

قَالُوا يَا أَبَانَا اسْتَغْفِرْ لَنَا ذُنُوبَنَا إِنَّا كُنَّا خَاطِئِينَ {97}

[shakir 12:97] They [The brothers of Yusuf] said: O our father! ask forgiveness of our faults for us, surely we were sinners.

قَالَ سَوْفَ أَسْتَغْفِرُ لَكُمْ رَبِّي ۖ إِنَّهُ هُوَ الْغَفُورُ الرَّحِيمُ {98}

[shakir 12:98] He said: I will ask for you forgiveness from my Lord; surely He is the Forgiving, the Merciful.

Yes, and? How does this prove that it's ok to call on people who are no longer with us? How can anyone think asking something of someone who is right in front of you and calling on someone who is in a different physical and spiritual realm are in any way similar?

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(bismillah)

(salam)

In a similar way that Prophet Yusuf's brothers asked for intercession, Allah SWT gives the Holy Prophet SA the authority to intercede.

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِنْ رَسُولٍ إِلَّا لِيُطَاعَ بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۚ وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذْ ظَلَمُوا أَنْفُسَهُمْ جَاءُوكَ فَاسْتَغْفَرُوا اللَّهَ وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ الرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُوا اللَّهَ تَوَّابًا رَحِيمًا {64}

[shakir 4:64] And We did not send any messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had (also) asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful.

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 4:64]

It is the will of Allah that people should obey the Holy Prophet. If the sinners approach the Holy Prophet, he will speak on their behalf to Allah, because He has given him the authority to intercede on behalf of the repentant sinners; and on his (and his Ahl ul Bayt's) recommendation. Allah forgives the sinners, as has been clearly mentioned in this verse. Refer to the commentary of al-Baqarah: 48.

On 2/7/2012 at 11:51 PM, Haydar Husayn said:

Yes, and? How does this prove that it's ok to call on people who are no longer with us? How can anyone think asking something of someone who is right in front of you and calling on someone who is in a different physical and spiritual realm are in any way similar?

 

(bismillah)

(salam)

 

وَلَا تَقُولُوا لِمَنْ يُقْتَلُ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ أَمْوَاتٌ ۚ بَلْ أَحْيَاءٌ وَلَٰكِنْ لَا تَشْعُرُونَ {154}

[shakir 2:154] And do not speak of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead; nay, (they are) alive, but you do not perceive.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

In a similar way that Prophet Yusuf's brothers asked for intercession, Allah SWT gives the Holy Prophet SA the authority to intercede.

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِنْ رَسُولٍ إِلَّا لِيُطَاعَ بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۚ وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذْ ظَلَمُوا أَنْفُسَهُمْ جَاءُوكَ فَاسْتَغْفَرُوا اللَّهَ وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ الرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُوا اللَّهَ تَوَّابًا رَحِيمًا {64}

[shakir 4:64] And We did not send any messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had (also) asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful.

This proves nothing, since it is still simply a case of people asking the Prophet (pbuh) to pray for their forgiveness while he was with them. We are not in that situation. I'll repost something I wrote in another thread about this verse:

I don't think there are any ahadith that interpret this verse to mean we can pray to the Prophet (pbuh) for him to pray to Allah on our behalf.

In any case, there are several problems with using this verse to prove tawassul:

1) The verse seems to indicate by mentioning that the Prophet (pbuh) should be obeyed, that the people had done wrong by disobeying him. So it is natural that they should ask his forgiveness, and ask him to ask Allah to forgive them since they had wronged him (and by extention Allah). Also, the verse first mentions them asking forgiveness of Allah. This verse isn't talking about asking him to pray to Allah to forgive them some other random sins, is it?

Similarly in other cases in the Quran. For example:

They said: O our father! ask forgiveness of our faults for us, surely we were sinners. [12:97]

The sons of Yaqoob (as) were asking him to pray to Allah to forgive them after they had wronged him (and Yusuf (as) of course), so that is why he should ask for forgiveness.

Perhaps it would be similar to a case where someone backbites another, repents, and goes to the person he wronged and asked for his forgiveness. I'm not sure, but it seems to me that if the wronged party then prays to Allah to forgive the person who wronged him, then that would be even more beneficial for the backbiter.

وَلَا تَقُولُوا لِمَنْ يُقْتَلُ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ أَمْوَاتٌ ۚ بَلْ أَحْيَاءٌ وَلَٰكِنْ لَا تَشْعُرُونَ {154}

[shakir 2:154] And do not speak of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead; nay, (they are) alive, but you do not perceive.

A very predictable response, but please tell me how being alive (clearly in a different sense than we are) in a different realm proves that they can hear us and act on our behalf?

When the Prophet (pbuh) was alive on earth, and someone living in a different city called on him, do you think he could hear? And would answer those prayers?

Edited by Haydar Husayn
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On 2/7/2012 at 0:26 AM, Haydar Husayn said:

When the Prophet (pbuh) was alive on earth, and someone living in a different city called on him, do you think he could hear? And would answer those prayers?

 

(bismillah)

(salam)

We are not praying to the Holy Prophet SA and he is not answering our prayers. We mention his name or names of Imams AS when we converse with Allah SWT.

Quote
Does the Quran teach this stuff? Absolutely not. Do the Imams? No. They taught pure Tawheed.

(bismillah)

(salam)

Prophet SA and Imams AS are our intercessors by permission of Allah SWT.

We have the permission of Allah SWT to mention them when we speak to Allah SWT.

A number of our people have narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn 'Isa from al-Husayn

ibn Sa‘id from Fudala ibn Ayyub from abu a1-Maghra from Muhammad ibn Salim from

Aban ibn Taghlib from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following.

"The Messenger of Allah has said, ...'I appeal to Allah and complain to Him about the case

of my people’s dealings, their denying the virtue and excellence of the Imams from my family.

I complain to Allah for their disregard of my relation with them. By Allah, they will

murder my son (al-Husayn (a.s.)). May Allah deprive them of my intercession.’"

Al Kafi, H 540, Ch. 19, h 5

Source: http://alhassanain.com/english/book/book/al_hadith_and_its_sciences_library/various_books/al_kafi_volume_4_part_1/011.html

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Besides also means "in addition to". Check your dictionary. Also it makes no sense to say it meant to the exclusion of Allah, since the polytheists of the time also believed in Allah, and would call on him.

Yeah, in terms of an argument such as "Besides, as I was saying earlier..." , but the word implies independence. We don't call on the Sent Ones independently from Allah at any point.

Also, even though the polytheists believed in Allah, they were polytheists. Polytheists have historically believed that the gods have independent wills. One god can stop the will of another and even if a god is more powerful than another god, if enough gods gather against him/her, they can prevent it from acting out its will or stop its actions from taking full effect independently from the will of that particular god in question. That's how polytheism works. That's what the Quran is refuting, no where does it say God doesn't work through his sent ones or that God does not consider the desires of those beneath him and hear them out.

Whereas the intercession of pagan gods was basically that they could stop other gods, even the most powerful gods if they gathered enough strength together between themselves, in their tracks, the intercession of saints and other holy persons is merely petitioning God to allow this or that and if he says "no" accepting it. You can't compare the two.

No, I am not claiming that, and neither is the Quran. Show me where in those verses it says those the mushriks called upon, or the people of the book called upon, were independent of Allah?

Show me where it is referring to calling on the prophets or Imams, or rather I should say more specifically calling on God through the prophets or Imams.

Yes, and? How does this prove that it's ok to call on people who are no longer with us? How can anyone think asking something of someone who is right in front of you and calling on someone who is in a different physical and spiritual realm are in any way similar?

Because people don't disappear after they die. And if you don't believe in the omnipresence of Ahlul Bayt in our lives then there's nothing really left to discuss.

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23
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In a similar way that Prophet Yusuf's brothers asked for intercession

Salam Sister, i would recommend reading that Surah very well. Prophet Yusuf's (as) brothers had a plot to kill him (as) and they caused so much grief and opression on their father, to the point that he even became blind.

Of course they should seek forgiveness from him, because they committed an oppression against him. And i would recommend reading the various tafasir on 4:64 (rather than just what al-Islam.org puts up) to understand the context of that verse.

i'll just say this. Shirk is one of the worst sins in Islam. It's one of the sins that Allah (swt) has promised hell for. It's not something to take lightly at all. If there's something that almost gurantees hellfire, it seems to me that the safest thing to do is to stay as far away as possible from it.

And i ask Allah(swt) protection from the hellfire for all of us amen

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(bismillah)

(salam)

íóÇ ÃóíõøåóÇ ÇáóøÐöíäó ÂãóäõæÇ ÇÊóøÞõæÇ Çááóøåó æóÇÈúÊóÛõæÇ Åöáóíúåö ÇáúæóÓöíáóÉó æóÌóÇåöÏõæÇ Ýöí ÓóÈöíáöåö áóÚóáóøßõãú ÊõÝúáöÍõæäó {35}

[shakir 5:35] O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah and seek means of nearness to Him and strive hard in His way that you may be successful.

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 5:35]

Wasilah is a means of access to a thing or a being.

If Allah had willed He could have guided mankind directly through inspiration, but in His infinite wisdom, He had not deemed it desirable. He selected and appointed His representatives to convey His message and laws to people and administer their affairs in every age. Please refer to pages 1 to 7, and the commentary of al Baqarah: 2 to 5, 30 to 38, 48, and 124 to know that the Holy Prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt are the only means of approach to Allah.

Thus wasilah or means of access to Allah is to faithfully follow the Holy Prophet and the holy Imams of his holy house, who have been thoroughly purified by Allah (Ahzab: 33).

The Holy Prophet said:

"I and Ali are from one divine light."

"I will soon be called back, so I will have to go away from you, but I leave behind, amid you, the thaqalayn (two weighty indispensable influential authorities), the book of Allah and my Ahl ul Bayt. Should you be attached to these two, never, never shall you go astray, after me, for verily these two will never be separated from each other; and, joined together, they shall meet me at the spring of Kawthar."

"My Ahl ul Bayt amongst you are like the ark of Nuh. He who sails on it will be safe; but he who holds back shall be drowned and lost."

Qur'an and commentary source: http://quran.al-islam.org/

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Salam Sister, i would recommend reading that Surah very well. Prophet Yusuf's (as) brothers had a plot to kill him (as) and they caused so much grief and opression on their father, to the point that he even became blind.

Of course they should seek forgiveness from him, because they committed an oppression against him.

Thank you for the message, brother. According to the ayah that I posted above, the brothers of Prophet Yusuf AS were not asking Prophet Yusuf AS to forgive them. They were begging their father Prophet Ya'qub AS to ask Allah SWT to forgive them. Prophet Ya'qub AS promised to make intercession for them.

Edit: See my Post #19 above.

Edited by hameedeh
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Salam.

Below hadees shows that Prophet Muhammad (saww) showers blessings even after passing away:

كنز الفوائد للكراجكي : ذكر أن أبا حنيفة أكل طعاما الامام الصادق جعفر بن محمد عليهما السلام فلما رفع عليه السلام يده من أكله قال : ( الحمدلله رب العالمين اللهم إن هذا منك ومن رسولك ) .

فقال أبوحنيفة : يا أبا عبدالله أجعلت مع الله شريكا ؟ فقال له : ويلك إن الله تعالى يقول في كتابه : ( وما نقموا إلا أن أغناهم الله ورسوله من فضله )

ويقول في موضع آخر : ( ولو أنهم رضواما آتيهم الله ورسوله وقالوا : حسبنا الله سيؤتينا الله من فضله ورسوله ) فقال أبوحنيفة : والله لكأني ما قرأتهما قط من كتاب الله ولا سمعتهما إلا في هذا الوقت ، فقال أبوعبدالله عليه السلام : بلى قد قرأتهما وسمعتهما ، ولكن الله تعالى أنزل فيك وفي أشباهك ( أم على قلوب أقفالها ) وقال ( كلابل ران على قلوبهم ما كانوا يكسبون

It is written in Kanzul Fawaid by Karajaki that once Imam Jafar-e-Sadiq (asws) was eating food with Abu Hanifa and after finisning, Imam Jafar-e-Sadiq (asws) expressed gratitude like this: “I thank Allah (azwj) who is the Sustainer of All Worlds, O Allah (azwj) this was a blessing from You (azwj) as well as from Your Prophet (saww).”

Upon hearing this Abu Hanifa said: “O Abu AbdAllah (asws)! You have include ‘someone else’ along with Allah (azwj).”

Imam Jafar-e-Sadiq (asws) replied: “Be Careful! Allah (azwj) Says in His Book(9:59):

“If only they had been content with what Allah and His Messenger had gave them, and had said, "Sufficient unto us is Allah! Allah and His Messenger will soon give us out of their Kindness"

And at another place Allah (azwj) Says (9:74):

“……And they only stayed in opposition because Allah and His Messenger enriched them out of His grace….."

After listening to these Verses from Imam Jafar-e-Sadiq (asws), Abu Hanifa said: “By Allah (azwj)! It seems I have never read or heard someone reciting these Verses of the holy Quran before.”

Imam Jafar-e-Sadiq (asws) said: “No, its not like this! You have not only heard these Verses before but also have read them. However, Allah (azwj) Says for you and people like you(47:24):

“Will they then not meditate on the Qur'an, or are there locks on the hearts?”

and Says (83:14):

“Nay, but that which they have earned is rust upon their hearts.

[source: Bihar Al Anwar Vol.47 Pg.240]

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Salam.

Quoting the following from the book of Ayatullah Sadiq Shirazi:

http://imamshirazi.com/shi'ism%20and%20the%20shi'a.pdf

Page:37

Intercession

The Sh:!a believe that intercession or shaf"!ah is correct as is to

be found in the Holy Qur’"n and the authentic traditions.

Almighty Allah has said in the Holy Qur’an: They do not

intercede except for someone He approves off

Beseeching the Prophet and his Pure Family

The Sh:!a believe it is permissible to seek a way to Allah >

(tawassul) through beseeching or pleading to the Prophet (N) and

his pure family (a.s.). Allah has said of them in the Qur’ > "n: eAnd

seek the way (was:lah) to Him

. The Sh:!a also believe that it is permissible to seek the aid of Ahl al,Bayt in asking for needs to

be fulfilled by Almighty Allah, for they are alive and receiving >

sustenance with their Lord, as is found in the Qur’"nic verse about

the martyrs who have a lesser station than the Prophet.

Just as the companions of the Prophet (N) used to seek a way to

Allah through the Prophet and would seek their needs from

him when he was alive in the world, it is permissible for

Muslims to seek a way to Allah through him and seek their needs >

from him now when the Prophet (N) is alive in the afterlife.

The Prophet (N) and his pure household (a.s.) have a high station

with Allah so Muslims seek a way to Alla > h through them to ask >

Allah to fulfil their needs.

Almighty Allah has said: And if, when they wrong their own

selves, they were to come to you [the Prophet] and seek

forgiveness from Allah and the Messenger seeks forgiveness for >

them they would find Allah turning towards them, merciful

Therefore, seeking a way to Almighty Allah ( > tawassul) through

the station of pious people in their graves such as the Prophets and 38

friends of Allah is permissible because of the solid evidences from

the Qur’"n and the traditions and consensus as well as the

practices of the Muslims in this regard.

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On 2/7/2012 at 4:04 AM, Shia_Debater said:

(bismillah)

(salam)

The story of Prophet Ya'qub [as] making dua for his children is different to tawassul since he was present.

The story of People asking the Prophet [saww] to pray for them is different since he was present.

Is the Prophet [saww] present when you ask him? Is Imam Ali [as] present when you ask him?

How can we be so sure that they can hear us?

In prayer when we send our salaam to the Prophet [saww] from what I have heard it reaches him, this does not mean that he hears it directly. Also just because he can hear our salaam it does not mean he can hear us asking him to ask Allah (swt) on behalf of us. Also this does not mean Imam Ali [as] or any of the A'immah [as] can hear our salaam nor does it mean they can hear us asking them to ask Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì.

Also it seems a bit risky saying "Ya Ali" and in your heart knowing you are asking Imam Ali [as] to ask Allah (swt) to then allow you to do something when you could just ask Allah (swt) and say bi haqqi Ali.

Also, where would tawassul stop? For example if one of my friends died as a martyr could I call on him? Sure you may say the A'immah [as] are closer to Allah (swt) than my friend, but the Prophet [saww] is closer to Allah (swt) than Imam Ali [as]. So theoretically would I be allowed to do that if he was a martyr?

Or is it only permissible to ask infallibles? If it is only for infallibles does that mean we cannot call upon Abbas [as]? which I have noticed people do.

Every practice must come from somewhere - If asking the A'immah [as] on behalf of us to ask Allah (swt) for something is permissible then there should be proof from the Qur'an. Proof from the ahadith wouldn't really work since the Qur'an says do not call upon any other than Allah (swt) however if we were to say for arguements sake that ahadith are accepted, then still there isn;t much proof.

 

(bismillah)

(wasalam)

Quote

Chapter 14

The Imams are the corner stone on earth

H 501, Ch. 14, h 1

Amir al-Mu’minin Ali (a.s.) would very often say, "I am the supervisor for Allah to see who

should go to Paradise and who should go to Hell. I am the greatest criterion, the possessor of

the staff and the (marking) seal Miysam All the angels and the spirit have acknowledged the

existence in me of all the matters that they had acknowledge in Prophet Muhammad (s.a.). I

am held responsible for all such matters that Prophet Muhammad (s.a.) was held responsible.

Such responsibilities are the duties to Allah, the Lord. The Holy Prophet will be called upon

and his call will be accepted. I will be called upon and my call will be accepted. The Holy

Prophet will be made to speak and I will be made to speak and I will speak just the way he

would speak. I have been given certain distinctions which are given to no one before me. I

was taught all about the deaths, the sufferings, the genealogy of people and clear speech. I

have not missed any of the knowledge that have passed me by and nothing of the future is

unseen or unknown to me. I give good news by the permission of Allah and do my duty

towards Allah. All of these is from Allah Who has made it possible for me through His

knowledge."

H 502, Ch. 14, h 2

Amir al-Mu’minin Ali (a.s.) was the gate to Allah through which only, people can get closer to Him.

Imam Ali (a.s.) was the path that if one would ignore it he would have been destroyed. This is also

true of all the Imams of guidance one after the other. Allah has made them as the cornerstones of the earth

so that people on it would not be destroyed.

http://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/uploads/Al-Kafi.pdf

I am a woman, a Christian who learned about Islam and became a Muslim, a convert or revert to Shia Islam. I know that Allah SWT loved me, because He guided me to the truth. Perhaps I am not worthy to call upon the Holy Prophet SA and the Imams AS. If I said, Ya Ghazi Abul Fazl Abbas Alamdar, Adrikni!, then Allah SWT would know my heart and my intention, and being the All Knowing that He is, He SWT would know that I meant to say, Ya Ghazi Abul Fazl Abbas Alamdar, Adrikni! Please ask Allah SWT to return Imam Mahdi AJ. Ya Allah, accept these prayers. :cry:

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We are not praying to the Holy Prophet SA and he is not answering our prayers. We mention his name or names of Imams AS when we converse with Allah SWT.

That is perfectly fine, sister. I'm not arguing against mentioning their names, which is something recommended. What I am arguing against is calling upon them, for example by making a dua that starts with "Ya Ali".

Prophet SA and Imams AS are our intercessors by permission of Allah SWT.

We have the permission of Allah SWT to mention them when we speak to Allah SWT.

A number of our people have narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn 'Isa from al-Husayn

ibn Sa‘id from Fudala ibn Ayyub from abu a1-Maghra from Muhammad ibn Salim from

Aban ibn Taghlib from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following.

"The Messenger of Allah has said, ...'I appeal to Allah and complain to Him about the case

of my people’s dealings, their denying the virtue and excellence of the Imams from my family.

I complain to Allah for their disregard of my relation with them. By Allah, they will

murder my son (al-Husayn (a.s.)). May Allah deprive them of my intercession.’"

Al Kafi, H 540, Ch. 19, h 5

Again, this is clearly speaking about intercession on the Day of Judgement.

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا اتَّقُوا اللَّهَ وَابْتَغُوا إِلَيْهِ الْوَسِيلَةَ وَجَاهِدُوا فِي سَبِيلِهِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُفْلِحُونَ {35}

[shakir 5:35] O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah and seek means of nearness to Him and strive hard in His way that you may be successful.

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 5:35]

Wasilah is a means of access to a thing or a being.

If Allah had willed He could have guided mankind directly through inspiration, but in His infinite wisdom, He had not deemed it desirable. He selected and appointed His representatives to convey His message and laws to people and administer their affairs in every age. Please refer to pages 1 to 7, and the commentary of al Baqarah: 2 to 5, 30 to 38, 48, and 124 to know that the Holy Prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt are the only means of approach to Allah.

Thus wasilah or means of access to Allah is to faithfully follow the Holy Prophet and the holy Imams of his holy house, who have been thoroughly purified by Allah (Ahzab: 33).

The Holy Prophet said:

"I and Ali are from one divine light."

"I will soon be called back, so I will have to go away from you, but I leave behind, amid you, the thaqalayn (two weighty indispensable influential authorities), the book of Allah and my Ahl ul Bayt. Should you be attached to these two, never, never shall you go astray, after me, for verily these two will never be separated from each other; and, joined together, they shall meet me at the spring of Kawthar."

"My Ahl ul Bayt amongst you are like the ark of Nuh. He who sails on it will be safe; but he who holds back shall be drowned and lost."

Qur'an and commentary source: http://quran.al-islam.org/

Poyaa/Ali is not a very good tafsir, so I don't think you should rely on it so heavily. There is far too much speculation in it, and too little reference to authentic Shia ahadith. As for this verse, look at what Imam Ali (as) had to say about seeking nearness to Allah (swt):

Nahjul Balagha, Sermon 109

The best means by which seekers of nearness to Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, seek nearness, is the belief in Him and His Prophet, fighting in His cause, for it is the high pinnacle of Islam, and (to believe) in the kalimatu'l-'ikhlas (the expression of Divine purification) for it is just nature and the establishment of prayer for it is (the basis of) community, payment of zakat (Islamic tax) for it is a compulsory obligation, fasting for the month of Ramadan for it is the shield against chastisement, the performance of hajj of the House of Allah (i. e . Ka`bah) and its `umrah (other than annual visit) for these two acts banish poverty and wash away sins, regard for kinship for it increases wealth and length of life, to giving alms secretly for it covers shortcomings, giving alms openly for it protects against a bad death and extending benefits (to people) for it saves from positions of disgrace.

Nahjul Balagha, Saying 135

Daily prayers are the best medium through which one can Seek the nearness to Allah. Hajj is Jihad (Holy War) for every weak person. For everything that you own there is Zakat, and Zakat of your body is fasting. The Jihad of a woman is to afford pleasant company to her husband.

These are the best means of seaking nearness to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, not calling on other than Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, which is shirk.

He also said:

Nahjul Balagha, Letter 31

Develop the habit of patience against sufferings, calamities and adversities. This virtue of patience is one of the highest values of morality and nobility of character and it is the best habit which one can develop. Trust in Allah and let your mind seek His protection in every calamity and suffering because you will thus entrust yourself and your affairs to the Best Trustee and to the Mightiest Guardian. Do not seek help or protection from anybody but Allah. Reserve your prayers, your requests, your solicitations, your supplications, and your entreaties to Him and Him alone because to grant, to give, to confer and to bestow, as well as to withhold, to deprive, to refuse, and to debar, lies only in His Power. Ask as much of His Blessings and seek as much of His Guidance as you can.

[...]

Realize this truth, my son, that the Lord who owns and holds the treasures of Paradise and the earth has given you permission to ask and beg for them and He has promised to grant your prayers. He has told you to pray for His Favours that they may be granted to you and to ask for His Blessings that they may be bestowed upon you. He has not appointed guards to prevent your prayers reaching Him. Nor is there any need for anybody to intercede before Him on your behalf.

Do you see that? No need for anybody to intercede before Him on your behalf when you supplicate to Him. Why do people not take any notice to the words of their Imam?

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Yeah, in terms of an argument such as "Besides, as I was saying earlier..." , but the word implies independence. We don't call on the Sent Ones independently from Allah at any point.

No it doesn't. You obviously didn't bother checking the dictionaries, so I will do it for you.

be·sides

[bih-sahydz]

adverb

1.moreover; furthermore; also: Besides, I promised her we would come.

2.in addition: There are three elm trees and two maples besides.

3.otherwise; else: They had a roof over their heads but not much besides.

preposition

4.over and above; in addition to: Besides a mother he has a sister to support.

5.other than; except: There's no one here besides Bill and me.

Also, even though the polytheists believed in Allah, they were polytheists. Polytheists have historically believed that the gods have independent wills. One god can stop the will of another and even if a god is more powerful than another god, if enough gods gather against him/her, they can prevent it from acting out its will or stop its actions from taking full effect independently from the will of that particular god in question. That's how polytheism works. That's what the Quran is refuting, no where does it say God doesn't work through his sent ones or that God does not consider the desires of those beneath him and hear them out.

Whereas the intercession of pagan gods was basically that they could stop other gods, even the most powerful gods if they gathered enough strength together between themselves, in their tracks, the intercession of saints and other holy persons is merely petitioning God to allow this or that and if he says "no" accepting it. You can't compare the two.

You are speculating again.

Show me where it is referring to calling on the prophets or Imams, or rather I should say more specifically calling on God through the prophets or Imams.

Here are some verses that could apply to that situation:

And there are some among men who take for themselves objects of worship besides Allah, whom they love as they love Allah, and those who believe are stronger in love for Allah and O, that those who are unjust had seen, when they see the chastisement, that the power is wholly Allah's and that Allah is severe in requiting (evil). When those who were followed shall renounce those who followed (them), and they see the chastisement and their ties are cut asunder. And those who followed shall say: Had there been for us a return, then we would renounce them as they have renounced us. Thus will Allah show them their deeds to be intense regret to them, and they shall not come forth from the fire. [2:165-167]

Many Shias certain do have more love in their hearts for the Imams (as) than for Allah. They can deny it, but from their behaviour and emotions, it's obvious.

And We will bring forth hell, exposed to view, on that day before the unbelievers. They whose eyes were under a cover from My reminder and they could not even hear. What! do then those who disbelieve think that they can take My servants to be guardians besides Me? Surely We have prepared hell for the entertainment of the unbelievers. [18:100-103]

This is what people are doing, taking the servants of Allah as guardians besides Allah.

He causes the night to enter in upon the day, and He causes the day to enter in upon the night, and He has made subservient (to you) the sun and the moon; each one follows its course to an appointed time; this is Allah, your Lord, His is the kingdom; and those whom you call upon besides Him do not control a straw. If you call on them they shall not hear your call, and even if they could hear they shall not answer you; and on the resurrection day they will deny your associating them (with Allah); and none can inform you like the One Who is Aware. [35:13-14]

And who is in greater error than he who calls besides Allah upon those that will not answer him till the day of resurrection and they are heedless of their call? And when men are gathered together they shall be their enemies, and shall be deniers of their worshipping (them). [47:5-6]

Anyway, whatever way you want to see it the Quran makes a clear statement over and over again "Do not call upon other than Allah". This is a general statement, and is independent of the context. If Allah had wanted to, He could have said "Do not call upon other than Allah and His Messenger", or "Do not call upon other than Allah and those who he has chosen", but He didn't. On what basis does anyone then ignore this clear command, and call upon others?

Because people don't disappear after they die. And if you don't believe in the omnipresence of Ahlul Bayt in our lives then there's nothing really left to discuss.

The only being that is omnipresent is Allah سبحانه وتعالى. If you want to claim otherwise, then you need to prove it.

Edited by Haydar Husayn
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On 2/7/2012 at 5:45 AM, Shia_Debater said:

(bismillah)

(salam)

Wouldn't it be safer to say "Ya Allah (swt) please hasten the return of Imam Mahdi (atfs) bi haqqi Muhammad wa alihi"?

(wasalam)

 

(bismillah)

(wasalam)

Brother, you said it ^^^^^ so much better than me, however, I still maintain that I speak to my God in my language and He understands me. :)

Quote
It just doesnt make sense to me that we can call upon other human beings

Ahlul Bayt AS ^^^^^ are superior to normal people. We can't compare them to our own selves. They are in the Qur'an and protectors of the Qur'an, owners of intelligence beyond comprehension. Imam AS said ask from a proper source:

Quote
H 12, Ch. 1, h 12

Imam Hassan ibn Ali (a.s) has said, "If you would ask for help do so from a proper source." He was

asked, "O grandson of the holy Prophet, ‘Who are the proper sources?" He replied, "They are those

about whom Allah has spoken in His book saying, "Only those who have understanding will take heed

and they are the people of intelligence."

http://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/uploads/Al-Kafi.pdf

Prophet Adam AS made tawassul before the Ahlul Bayt AS were born in their earthly bodies. Read this translator's note:

Quote
Jalal al-Din Suyuti, Tafsir Durr al-Manthur, vol. 1, pp. 142-149 (Dar al-Fikr print, Beirut, 1983).

Translator's note: Suyuti is more elaborate when on p. 147, he says Adam supplicated to Allah by the right of Prophet Muhammad and his progeny (Allahumma bi-haqqi Muhammad wa Al-i Muhammad) He further quotes the Prophet (s) on the authority of 'Abdullah Ibn 'Abbas as saying that the words taught to Adam by God to seek forgiveness were: By the right of Muhammad, and 'Ali, and Fatimah, and Hasan and Husayn). Source:

http://www.al-islam.org/message-thaqalayn/vol5-n4-2000/tawassul-seeking-way-unto-Allah-dr-abd-al-karim-shirazi/tawassul

Quote
Again, this is clearly speaking about intercession on the Day of Judgement.

Haydar, ^^^^^ you are so nitpickingly literal! If the Holy Ahlul Bayt AS can make intercession on the Day of Judgement, and Allah SWT says in the Holy Qur'an that they are not dead but are alive, then Allah SWT can permit them to see and hear us and pray for our safety and forgiveness, if we are worthy of it. If we are not worthy of it, then on the Judgement Day our good deeds, including calling on them AS with their holy names, our intentions and our tears for Imam Husain AS may all add up to something, to help us, inshaAllah.

Quote
Nor is there any need for anybody to intercede before Him on your behalf. ~ Imam Ali AS, Letter 31, Nahjul Balagha

That quote ^^^^^ was on your profile yesterday. Let's ask ourselves, who is Imam Ali AS speaking to? It is a letter to his own infallible son AS telling him that he doesn't need intercession. Of course he AS doesn't need intercession. Imam Ali AS and his sons, the Holy Ahlul Bayt AS are the intercessors. Imam Ali AS is not speaking to us telling us we don't need an intercessor. :excl:

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Haydar, ^^^^^ you are so nitpickingly literal! If the Holy Ahlul Bayt AS can make intercession on the Day of Judgement, and Allah SWT says in the Holy Qur'an that they are not dead but are alive, then Allah SWT can permit them to see and hear us and pray for our safety and forgiveness, if we are worthy of it. If we are not worthy of it, then on the Judgement Day our good deeds, including calling on them AS with their holy names, our intentions and our tears for Imam Husain AS may all add up to something, to help us, inshaAllah.

Yes, Allah could permit it if He wanted, but where is the evidence that He does permit it?

That quote ^^^^^ was on your profile yesterday. Let's ask ourselves, who is Imam Ali AS speaking to? It is a letter to his own infallible son AS telling him that he doesn't need intercession. Of course he AS doesn't need intercession. Imam Ali AS and his sons, the Holy Ahlul Bayt AS are the intercessors. Imam Ali AS is not speaking to us telling us we don't need an intercessor. :excl:

There is a difference of opinion over who the letter is addressed to. And think about it, why would Imam Ali (as) have to give advice like that to his infallible son? Obviously he would already know that stuff, or would inherit that knowledge once he became the Imam. So either it wasn't addressed to Imam Hasan (as), or if it was, it was for our benefit since he would have already known all that.

Here is the introduction to the letter in a popular english translation of the book:

[ After returning from the Battle of Siffin, Imam Ali (a) gave certain pieces of advice to one of his sons. Some historians consider him to be Imam Hasan (a) while others are of the opinion that he was Muhammad Hanafiya. He wrote them in the form of a will. They deal with almost every aspect of life which goes a long way to make a man successful in life - brave, humane, generous, virtuous and pious. ]

And look at some of the things he says in the letter:

Do not talk about things which you do not know. Do not speculate about and pass verdicts on subjects about which you are not in a position to form an opinion and are not called upon to do so.
Give up the way where there is a possibility of your going astray. When there is danger on your wandering in the wilderness of ignorance, possibility of losing the sight of the goal which you want to attain and of reaching the end aimed at, then it is better to give up the quest than to advance facing uncertain dangers and unforeseen risks.

Originally my desire was only to teach you the Holy Book thoroughly, to make you understand its intricacies, to impart to you the complete knowledge of His commandments and interdictions and not to leave you at the mercy of the knowledge of other people.

But after having succeeded in this task I felt nervous that I may leave you untrained and uneducated in the subjects which themselves are subject to so much confusion and so many contradictions. These are the subjects whose confusions have been made worse confounded by selfish desires, warped minds, wicked ways of life and sinful modes of thinking.

Therefore, I have noted down, in these lines, the basic principles of nobility, piety, truth and justice.

You may feel them to be over-bearing and harsh but my desire is to equip you with this knowledge instead of leaving you unarmed to face the world where there is every danger of loss and damnation.

and other things I could quote.

Doesn't sound like this is being addressed to an infallible to me, and if it is then clearly it must be for our benefit and not his. And anyway, even if it was as you say, why couldn't they seek the intercession of the Prophet (pbuh) who was greater than them? Whatever way you look at it, your attempt to explain this away doesn't work.

It's really amazing to see how desperate people are to cling to this practice of calling upon others. You would think it would be the opposite, and that they would require extraordinary proof in order to go against the clear message of the Quran, which is to not call upon other than Allah and to not rely on other than Allah.

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On 2/7/2012 at 8:16 AM, Shia_Debater said:

(bismillah)

(salam)

Abu Fadhl [as] is not part of the Ahlul Bayt [as] as far as I am aware, so can we still call on him?

If so then can we call on other companions who are family members who have been martyred such as Muslim ibn Aqeel [ra], Ja'far at-Tayyar [ra], Hamzah [ra] etc..

Can we call upon Companions who are not family members who have been martyred? i.e. some of the companions at karbala

Abu Fadhl [as] isn't in the Qur'an as far as I know.

No where does it mention asking those who have passed away.

(wasalam)

 

Bro, some people do believe in what ^^^^^ you have mentioned:

Quote
Tawassul to the Prophets, saints, pious persons, martyrs and the righteous during supplications, whether in their lifetime or after their death, is permissible in the following manner:

Allahumma inni atawassalu ilayka bi-fulan an tujiba da'wati wa taqdia hajati (O Allah! I beseech you by means of so and so a person, accept my supplication and grant my request).[13]

Source:

http://www.al-islam.org/message-thaqalayn/vol5-n4-2000/tawassul-seeking-way-unto-Allah-dr-abd-al-karim-shirazi

On 2/7/2012 at 8:18 AM, Haydar Husayn said:

It's really amazing to see how desperate people are to cling to this practice of calling upon others.

 

Haydar, Wahabis reject intercession, but there are some Sunnis who go to the grave of RasulAllah and ask intercession. Allah SWT will answer them. Thank you for calling me desperate. :angel:

Quote
The Intercessors are five: the Quran, one's near relatives, trusts (amanah), your Prophet, and the family of your Prophet (the Ahlul Bayt).[112]

Source: 

http://www.al-islam.org/inquiries-about-shia-islam-sayyid-moustafa-al-qazwini/intercession-shafaah

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