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Propaganda_of_the_Deed

Where Are The Practising Iranian Shias?

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Now, before you all get hyped up and jump to conclusions. Chill, and hear me out first.

This isn't a trolling thread to clarify first of all. I am aware they DO obviously exist, and the question in the thread title shouldn't be read as literal.

That being said.

I made this post on another thread, and thought it deserved a thread in its own right. Here goes:

Basically, I have come across many Iranians in the West, and it isn't that I don't have a variety of friends or I don't meet enough Shias, as I personally know practising Shias from, say, Pakistani, Lebanese, Iraqi and Indian-East African backgrounds.

But I still haven't really come across many Iranian Shias... I know they do happen to exist... but apart from you fine folk on here who are of this background, and those actually in Iran itself... where are you guys in real life?

Why is it that, for the most part, the Iranians I've come across are generally secular and/or ultra nationalistic.. to the extent that they commonly say "I'm not Iranian... I'm Persian".

I've conversed with many such types, and many of them sincerely seem to have a hatred and phobia for Islam and Arabs... and see Islam as a foreign Arab religion that was imposed on their great civilization - and it's not like that they are neccessarily zoroastrians either, although will see that as their native religion.

Many - not all - but many Iranians in the West seem to be descendents of the bourgeois, and the elitsts who fled at the time of the revolution with their beloved Shah, and naturally have such strong feelings against the Islamic Republic of Iran - many prefer to see it as Persia and not Iran.

As you know Farsi (one such American-Iranian i met corrected me and said it is PARSI not Farsi which is what the Arabs referred to "incorrectly" as they don't have the P letter in their alphabet) is one of the most common languages after English online, and in particular in the blogosphere... you will find many ultra-nationalist and anti-Islamic articles, blogs and videos by these secular Iranians.

I am sure there are going to be some emotional and passionate responses, and don't think this is some anti-Iran or anti-Shia thread, as you would be missing the point entirely.

I am only going by the Iranians I have personally come across.. maybe I need to meet more, but as I said I have diverse friends, religious and non-religious... but I just have never really come across a practising Shia Iranians in the West, despite coming across Shias from non-iranian backgrounds here.

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Because unlike what people want you to believe, Iran is just a country like any other, it is about politics.

Iran isn't Ma'soom, Khamenei isn't Ma'soom, and not everyone wants to be a Muslim.

Surah Hud (chapter 11), verse 28: He said: O my people! tell me if I have with me clear proof from my Lord, and He has granted me mercy from Himself and it has been made obscure to you; shall we constrain you to (accept) it while you are averse from it?

Surah al-Baqarah (chapter 2), verse 256: There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.

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Because of the nature of Iran's emigration laws, and the nature of Iran's political/social system, obviously, the vast majority of those Iranians who are outside of Iran, will be non-religious.

Why?

Because: It just takes a visa, for someone to leave Iran. So aside from financial factors, the only thing keeping an Iranian from leaving Iran, is the emigration policies of foreign governments. (and, for males, compulsory military service)

So that, in essence, creates a filtration system, whereby a very sizable proportion of those who want to leave Iran, do so. Most of those who like it in Iran, don't leave.

The other point: those whose problem is not ideological -- i.e. those who have hard times in Iran, but due to economic reasons, rather than an ideological difference -- do not have the potentials to go to the West, because this takes a lot of money, or if not that, then a level of education which makes the West see you as useful.

So most of the people who leave Iran, are people who have a core ideological difference; either that, or people who are not political but want to live a life where they can drink, go dancing/clubbing, chase girls/boys, etc... without dealing with Police.

That's why the Iranians you have met, are the way that they are.

I think even they, at the core, have religious sentiments. It's just that their weaknesses have been exploited by the propagandists in order for them to manifest themselves the way that they have.

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I agree. Many Iranians now are not practicing or converted to Zoroastrianism and the only reason they did that is because of their national pride. Go to most pages of Iranians all you see is "good deeds good thoughts good words"

Edited by Shi3i

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Some very interesting and plausible reasons raised so far.

Another theory which may explain Shia Islam's initial popularity in the then Persia can be that it enabled them to practise the "new" religion on their terms. I know it became official state religion under the Safavids too.

That due to the nature of Shia Islam's rejection of the establishment - it allowed Persians to become Muslims but reject the Caliphate establishment which was at the time wholly Arab-based - from the first 4 to the Ummayyad dynasty until the Abbassid revolution which was more favourable and less discriminatory to non-Arab subjects.

I'm not doubting sincerity of those Persian Muslims or today's Iranian Shias, and I know nothing of what is concealed in the hearts of man.

But from a somewhat rational and historic perspective, it can be understandable as to how Shia Islam became favourable in a land which for the most of it's past glory empire days had the upper ruling hand on the very Arab lands, which would later conquer them. There was mutual senses of superiority to be fair with both Arabs and Persians, with Arabs seeing others as "unable to speak" and Persians seeing them as uncivilized barbarians compared to their civilization.

Edited by Propaganda_of_the_Deed

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I have Ottoman ancestry and was born in America but I know for a fact that there are no people more proud of their race than Arabs and Persians. I don't understand how people can be proud of a place they were born into? That is just stupid.

The Prophet (P) came to unite us under Islam and said there is no difference between Arabs and Persians nor blacks and whites except with piousness which most of us lack

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I have Ottoman ancestry and was born in America but I know for a fact that there are no people more proud of their race than Arabs and Persians. I don't understand how people can be proud of a place they were born into? That is just stupid.

The Prophet (P) came to unite us under Islam and said there is no difference between Arabs and Persians nor blacks and whites except with piousness which most of us lack

Indeed, it's a disease that has infected the Ummah, whether it was the tribalism and racial superiority that the Prophet taught against.. or the modern Western concept of nationalism that was instilled in the Muslim world around the break up of the Ottoman Empire, especially Arab nationalism to help create divides.

Reminds me of one of my faveourite quotes on the subject...

“I could never understand ethnic or national pride. Because to me pride should be reserved for something you achieve or attain on your own, not something that happens by accident of birth. Being Irish isn’t a skill, it’s a [Edited Out]in’ genetic accident. You wouldn’t say ‘I’m proud to be 5’11”. I’m proud to have a predisposition for colon cancer.’ So why the **** would you be proud to be Irish, or proud to be Italian, or American or anything?”

-George Carlin

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You know if they want to leave for the main reasons Baradar mentioned i.e. ideological and lifestyle issues, that makes sense.

But what's even more ridiculous than ideological or lifestyle differences, is when you see a flock of Iranians leave to come to Europe or U.S. for one stupid reason. To tell family or friends back home that they are literally "superior" to them because they live in the U.S. or Europe. And the depressing thing is they will spread a bunch of lies about it being 1 billion times better by making up things that aren't true in the first place. The irony is some of these Iranians that claim that their lives are perfect are doing krap jobs in the U.S. but they claim that they live perfect lifestyles to family and friends back home to "pose" to get attention. The sad thing is, many of these family or friends, don't know that they are doing krap jobs over here. They actually believe the lies and think the U.S. is some country where poverty does not exist or that it looks like "the distant future" and they literally sell their homes and good lives back home to come and find themselves here at home 247 depressed. I'm not talking about wealthy Iranians, I'm talking about your average joe.

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Indeed, it's a disease that has infected the Ummah, whether it was the tribalism and racial superiority that the Prophet taught against.. or the modern Western concept of nationalism that was instilled in the Muslim world around the break up of the Ottoman Empire, especially Arab nationalism to help create divides.

Reminds me of one of my faveourite quotes on the subject...

“I could never understand ethnic or national pride. Because to me pride should be reserved for something you achieve or attain on your own, not something that happens by accident of birth. Being Irish isn’t a skill, it’s a [Edited Out]in’ genetic accident. You wouldn’t say ‘I’m proud to be 5’11”. I’m proud to have a predisposition for colon cancer.’ So why the **** would you be proud to be Irish, or proud to be Italian, or American or anything?”

-George Carlin

That quote is amazing I am so saving lol

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You know if they want to leave for the main reasons Baradar mentioned i.e. ideological and lifestyle issues, that makes sense.

But what's even more ridiculous than ideological or lifestyle differences, is when you see a flock of Iranians leave to come to Europe or U.S. for one stupid reason. To tell family or friends back home that they are literally "superior" to them because they live in the U.S. or Europe. And the depressing thing is they will spread a bunch of lies about it being 1 billion times better by making up things that aren't true in the first place. The irony is some of these Iranians that claim that their lives are perfect are doing krap jobs in the U.S. but they claim that they live perfect lifestyles to family and friends back home to "pose" to get attention. The sad thing is, many of these family or friends, don't know that they are doing krap jobs over here. They actually believe the lies and think the U.S. is some country where poverty does not exist or that it looks like "the distant future" and they literally sell their homes and good lives back home to come and find themselves here at home 247 depressed. I'm not talking about wealthy Iranians, I'm talking about your average joe.

Sadly, a lot of "big fish" in Iran -- who have high positions in Iranian univerisites -- move to the West and end up driving cabs.

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Sadly, a lot of "big fish" in Iran -- who have high positions in Iranian univerisites -- move to the West and end up driving cabs.

Big fish too? That's quite pathetic :/

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Because all the Iranians that you have met were against the Islamic revolution of 1979 and hence the reason they left Iran and you are able to speak to them today. Like the Iraqis who left Iraq due to Saddam, they blame and hate on the regime, they see it as evil, in their eyes its evil. Usually their great grandfather worked for the shah of Iran, usually they are traced back to the elites that ruled Iran before the revolution. and like always, they are usually pissed off that they have been jacked of their luxuries, so they rebel. they sin as a representation that they are not of the 1979 Iranians, but they are persians. they sin to rebel against the islamic republic not realising that they are angering Allah.

Other than that Iran is a safe, secure, resourceful, and provides the minimal neccesities to live, study, work. sure it isnt perfect, but its better than most muslim countries right? even technological advancement, satalites, rocket engines, radars. THE NUCLEAR PROGRAM! these are huge projects, I'd love to be part of that revolution.

So you dont see much good Iranians becuase they are all in Iran doing their job for the Ummah and Sahb al Zaman (ajaf)

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I dont where u guys live.......... but in London i know a lot of Iranian Shias....... Also as RiseOrDie said that most of the iranians who are in western countries were/are mainly against the islamic revolution..... also in iran about 30% are against the iranian government so most those ppl are now in western countries and the usually also change religions

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Im also very disappointed in the many Iranians I have met on this side of the world. It's very sad to see that most Iranians that live in the West condemn Islam, and also insist that Islam has somehow damaged Iran!! They also have this weird philosophy that Muslims are irrational and ignorant, yet they seem to have forgotten that Persian scholars such as Aviciena, Zakaria Razi, Rumi, Hafez and many more Persian philosophers/scientists have been devout followers of Islam.

They take pride in demonizing Islam and Muslims in the name of 'democracy'. In my opinion, they are nothing but a bunch of hypocrites who pretend to respect democracy.

And God knows, these type of people are so intolerant, that one cannot even have an 'exchange of ideas' with them, yet they live in a land that approves of 'freedom of religion' and 'democracy'. It's so sad.

Edited by sanazi

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