What Are Imams Really?! Why Call On Them?! Q&a

[Dawud Miqdad al-Amriki]

(bismillah)

My intention with this thread is to answer a few powerful questions with what I believe to be powerful ahadith, insha'Allah. These are my beliefs about the Imams (عليه السلام) as explained in Al-Qur'an and in ahadith from al-Kafi:

Some people say we Shi'a do shirk, think that Imams are prophets, or gods, n3udhubilah:

Al- Kafi H 707, Ch. 53, h 6

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from al-Barqi from abu Talib from Sadir who has said that he asked abu ‘Abdallah ((عليه السلام).) the following. "A certain group of people believe that you are gods. They read to us from the Quran about it. And it is He Who in heaven is God and in earth is God." (43:84). The Imam ((عليه السلام).) said, "O Sadir, my hearing, my sight, my skin, my flesh, my blood and my hair are (all) disdain such people, and Allah also disdains them. They do not follow my religion and the religion of my forefathers. I swear by Allah, Allah will not place me with them on the Day of Resurrection. The only thing from Allah to them will be His anger." The narrator has said that he said, "Among us there is a group of people who believe that you are messenger and read to from the Holy Quran. "O Messengers, eat of the good things and do righteousness; surely I know the things you do (23:51). The Imam ((عليه السلام).) said, "O Sadir, my hearing, my sight, my skin, my flesh, my blood and my hair are (all) disdain such people, and Allah and Hid Messenger also disdains them. They do not follow my religion and the religion of my forefathers. Allah will not place me with them on the Day of Judgment. The only thing from Allah towards them will be His anger." The narrator has said that he then asked, "What are you then?" the Imam ((عليه السلام).) said, "We are the treasuries of the knowledge of Allah. We are the translators of the commands of Allah. We are infallible people. Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, has commanded people to obey us and prohibited them to disobey us. We are the complete Divine authority over all that is below the heavens and above the earth."

Some say against us Shi'a, "Why do you say Ya 'Ali Madad instead of Ya Allah or Ya Muhammad?"

Al-Kafi H 708, Ch. 53, h 7

A number of our people has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from al-Husayn ibn Sa‘id from ‘Abdallah ibn Bahr from ibn Muskan from ‘Abd al-Rahman ibn abu ‘Abdallah from Muhammad ibn Muslim who has said that he heard abu ‘Abdallah ((عليه السلام).) say the following. "The Imams ((عليه السلام).) possess the position of the Messenger of Allah except that they are not prophets and the number of wives permissible for the Holy Prophet is not permissible for them. In the aspects other than these they possess the same positions as the Messenger of Allah did."

So just what is an Imam? What is the status and quality of an Imam?

Al-Kafi H 524, Ch. 15, h 2

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn 'Isa from al-Hasan ibn Mahbub from Ishaq ibn Ghalib from abu 'Abdallah ((عليه السلام).) who has described the condition of the Imams ((عليه السلام).) and their attributes in one of his sermons.

"Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, has explained His religion through the Imams of (true) guidance from the family of our Prophet (s.a.) the Ahlul Bayt ((عليه السلام).), and has clear through them the path of His system and plan. He has opened through them the inside of the springs of His knowledge. Whoever of the followers of Muhammad (s.a.) has recognized his obligation towards the rights of his Imam he has realized the taste of the sweetness of his faith and the superior beauty of his Islam. It is because Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, has appointed the Imam the torchbearer for His creatures and authority over those who receive His blessings of His world. He has crowned him with dignity and has encompassed him in the Light of His Omnipotence. He extends a means to the heavens. The blessings do not discontinue from him. Nothing from what is with Allah is achieved except through its right means. Allah does not accept the good deeds of His servants without one’s recognition of the Imam ((عليه السلام).). The Imam ((عليه السلام).) knows how to sort out the dark confusing matters and whatever obscures the Sunnah (tradition of the Holy Prophet (s.a.) and the confounding matters in mischievous conditions.

Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, has always been choosing the Imams from the descendants of al-Husayn ((عليه السلام).) one after the other Imam. He would select and choose them for the leadership of His creatures delightfully and well satisfied with them. Whenever one Imam would leave this world He would appoint for His creatures his successor as a clear beacon and a shining guide, a guarding leader, a knowledgeable Divine authority. The Imams from Allah guide people with the truth and with the truth they judge. They are Allah’s authority calling people to Him and as shepherds of His creatures. With their guidance people follow the religion and from them the land receive light. Through their holiness the bounties increase. Allah has made them life for the people and the torches in the darkness, the keys to communication and the strongholds for Islam. Thus, has the measures of Allah continued in them towards His final decision.

"The Imam is the outstanding amicable person, the most trusted guide and the guardian who can make hopes come true. Allah has chosen him with such distinctions. He choose him as such in the realm when all things were in the form of particles in the instance that He made him made him a particle and in the realm in which all things were designed as He had designed him (well-protected) as a shadow??, before He made the organisms, on the right side of His throne, gifted with wisdom in the unseen knowledge with Him. He chose him in His knowledge and granted him outstanding nobility for his purity. He is a heir of Adam, the best one among the descendents, the chosen one of the family of Abraham, a descendent of Ismael and of the most preferred ones in the family of Prophet Muhammad (s.a.). He has always been looked after by the watchful eyes of Allah Who would provide him security and guard him with His shield, well protected against the evil nets of Satan and his armies. He is well defended against the approaching dark nights and the false accusations of the evil doers. All wickedness is kept away from him and he kept safe against all forms of defects and flaws. He is veiled against all the scourge and infallible in the case of sins. He is kept safe and sound against all indecencies. He is well known for his forbearance and virtuousness in the early days of his life and great knowledge, chastity and excellence are ascribed to him towards the end of his life. The task of Imamt (leadership) of his father rests with him while in the lifetime of his father he remained silent.

When the time of the Imamat (leadership) of his father ends it is the time when the measures of Allah ends up with him to His wish, the will from Allah brings him to His love, thus, the end of the Imamat of his father comes and he passes away. The authority from Allah shifts tohim after his father. He then is made in charge of His religion and the Divine authority over His servants, the guardian over His lands, supported with His spirit and is given of His knowledge. He raises him as a beacon for His creatures, makes him to have His authority over the people of his world and as the light for the people of His religion and a guardian for His servants. Allah will agree to have him as Imam of the people, entrust him with His secret, makes him a safe-keeper of His knowledge, and makes him to hide His wisdom in him. He protects him for His religion calls up on him to serve His great task, revives through him the phases of His system (of religion) and the obligations in His laws.

The Imam then enforces justice, when the people of ignorance are confused and the disputing and quarrelling people are frustrated, with shining light, the beneficial cure and radiant truth. He would do so with clear explanations of all aspects and just in the manner and practice his truthful father and forefathers would do before him. No one would ignore the rights of such scholar except the wicked ones. No one would struggle against him except those who have strayed away from the right path. No one would keep away from him except those who keep a bold face against Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High.

Seriously why not just call on Allah, it's shorter, why do something complicated like going through tawassul of Imams?

Al-Kafi H 360, Ch. 23, h 8

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Muhammad ibn al-Husayn from Ahmad ibn abu Nasr from Hassan al-Jammal who has said that Hashim ibn abu ‘Ammara al-Janbi reported to him this. "I heard Amirul Mu’minin Ali ((عليه السلام).) saying, ‘I am the eyes of Allah. I am the hands of Allah. I am the sides of Allah. I am the door to Allah."

Al-Kafi H 362, Ch. 23, h 10

Al-Husayn ibn Muhammad has narrated from Mu‘alla ibn Muhammad from Muhammad ibn Jumhur from Ali ibn al-Salt from al-Hakam and Isma‘il sons of Habid from Burayd al-‘Ijli who has said the following. "I heard Imam abu Ja‘far ((عليه السلام).) saying, ‘Through us Allah is worshipped. Through us Allah is known. Through us belief in the Oneness of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, is established. Muhammad is the Hijab (curtain) of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High."

You believe the Imams have knowledge of the unseen? ('3lm al-Ghayb) Surely this is ascribing the qualities of Allah to them!

Al-Kafi H 371, Ch. 24, h 8

It is narrated from a number of our people from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from ibn abu ‘Umayr from Ja‘far ibn ‘Uthman from Suma‘a from abu Basir and Wahab ibn Hafs from abu Basir from abu ‘Abdallah ((عليه السلام).) who has said the following. "Allah has two kinds of knowledge. There is the hidden, treasured knowledge of which no one has any information except Allah. From this knowledge comes al-Bada’. Then there is the knowledge that Allah has given to His angels, His messengers and His prophets and we know this knowledge."

Al-Kafi H 374, Ch. 24, h 11

It is narrated from Ali ibn Ibrahim from Muhammad ibn ibn ‘Isa from Yunus from Mansur ibn Hazim who has said the following. I asked abu ‘Abdallah ((عليه السلام).), "Can anything happen today that was not in the knowledge of Allah the day before?’ The Imam ((عليه السلام).) said, "No, this does not happen. Whoever would say so Allah will make him to suffer a great deal." I then said, "Do you consider that all that were there and all that will take place up to the Day of Judgment are all in the knowledge of Allah?" The Imam said, "Yes, it was so before He created the creatures."

Al-Kafi H 375, Ch. 24, h 12

It is narrated from Ali ibn Muhammad from Yunus from Malik al-Juhanni who has said the following. "I heard Imam abu ‘Abdallah ((عليه السلام).) saying, ‘Had the people known of the reward in the belief in al-Bada’ there would have been no weakness in their words about it."

Qur'an, Al-Anaam, Chapter #6, Verse #59

With Him are the keys of the unseen, the treasures that none knoweth but He. He knoweth whatever there is on the earth and in the sea. Not a leaf doth fall but with His knowledge: there is not a grain in the darkness (or depths) of the earth, nor anything fresh or dry (green or withered), but is (inscribed) in a record clear (to those who can read).

Qur'an, Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #255

Allah is He besides Whom there is no god, the Ever-Living, the Self-subsisting by Whom all subsist; slumber does not overtake Him nor sleep; whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His; who is he that can intercede with Him but by His permission? He knows what is before them and what is behind them, and they cannot comprehend anything out of His knowledge except what He pleases, His knowledge extends over the heavens and the earth, and the preservation of them both tires Him not, and He is the Most High, the Great.

Qur'an, Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verses 31, 32 & #33

And He taught Adam all the names, then presented them to the angels; then He said: Tell me the names of those if you are right(31). They said: Glory be to Thee! we have no knowledge but that which Thou hast taught us; surely Thou art the Knowing, the Wise(32). He said: O Adam! inform them of their names. Then when he had informed them of their names, He said: Did I not say to you that I surely know what is ghaib in the heavens and the earth and (that) I know what you manifest and what you hide(33)?

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Sites for people who believe Abu Bakr is their rightly guided caliph:

This has 3 links to articles about calling on the dead, and uses your own sources, it's devastating to your argument against Tawassul

http://wilayat.net/index.php?option=com_tag&task=tag&tag=tawassul

[Mod Note: Link no longer works. Removed.]

Edited June 8, 2022 by Hameedeh
Mod Note

[ImamAliLover]

Did you actually read those hadiths and ayaat before posting them here? The clear, outward meaning of some of those hadiths don't say anything like what you're saying...

Edited January 30, 2012 by ImamAliLover

[Dawud Miqdad al-Amriki]

Did you actually read those hadiths and ayaat before posting them here? The clear, outward meaning of some of those hadiths don't say anything like what you're saying...

Please clarify.

[La fata illa Ali]

can someone explain what exactly is " al-Bada’ " ???

Thanks

[Dawud Miqdad al-Amriki]

can someone explain what exactly is " al-Bada’ " ???

Thanks

As-Salaam 3laikum,

That's an excellent question.

The Arabic word is الْبَدَاءِ

Al-Bada'

Not to be confused with bid3'a which is with 3yn

The following Ahadith in al-Kafi should clarify the use of the word by our Imams (as)

23ـ عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنْ عَبْدِ الله بْنِ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ الاصَمِّ عَنِ الْهَيْثَمِ بْنِ وَاقِدٍ عَنْ مُقَرِّنٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ الله (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) قَالَ إِنَّ عَبْدَ الْمُطَّلِبِ أَوَّلُ مَنْ قَالَ بِالْبَدَاءِ يُبْعَثُ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ أُمَّةً وَحْدَهُ عَلَيْهِ بَهَاءُ الْمُلُوكِ وَسِيمَاءُ الانْبِيَاءِ.

23. Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from ‘Abdallah ibn ‘Abd al-Rahman al-’Asamm from al-Hatham ibn Waqid from Muqarrin from abu ‘‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following. " ‘Abd al-Muttalib is the first one who believer in Bada’ (Allah’s revised will). He will be resurrected as a whole nation. He will have a august presence like kings and an countenance like the prophets."

14ـ عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ الرَّيَّانِ بْنِ الصَّلْتِ قَالَ سَمِعْتُ الرِّضَا (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) يَقُولُ مَا بَعَثَ الله نَبِيّاً قَطُّ إِلا بِتَحْرِيمِ الْخَمْرِ وَأَنْ يُقِرَّ لله بِالْبَدَاءِ.

14. It is narrated from Ali ibn Ibrahim from his father from al-Rayyan ibn al-Salt who has said the following.

"I heard Imam al-Rida (a.s.) saying, "Allah never sent a prophet without the law that prohibits the use of wine and without belief in al-Bada.’"

[Nocturne]

can someone explain what exactly is " al-Bada’ " ???

Thanks

http://www.shiachat....ost__p__1848724

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http://www.shiachat....ost__p__2031738

[ImamAliLover]

Please clarify.

Sure:

Some say against us Shi'a, "Why do you say Ya 'Ali Madad instead of Ya Allah or Ya Muhammad?"

Al-Kafi H 708, Ch. 53, h 7

A number of our people has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from al-Husayn ibn Sa‘id from ‘Abdallah ibn Bahr from ibn Muskan from ‘Abd al-Rahman ibn abu ‘Abdallah from Muhammad ibn Muslim who has said that he heard abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) say the following. "The Imams (a.s.) possess the position of the Messenger of Allah except that they are not prophets and the number of wives permissible for the Holy Prophet is not permissible for them. In the aspects other than these they possess the same positions as the Messenger of Allah did."

The outward apperance of this hadith has nothing to do with calling upon Ali (as) to help you instead of saying Ya Allah Madad...

Seriously why not just call on Allah, it's shorter, why do something complicated like going through tawassul of Imams?

Al-Kafi H 360, Ch. 23, h 8

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Muhammad ibn al-Husayn from Ahmad ibn abu Nasr from Hassan al-Jammal who has said that Hashim ibn abu ‘Ammara al-Janbi reported to him this. "I heard Amirul Mu’minin Ali (a.s.) saying, ‘I am the eyes of Allah. I am the hands of Allah. I am the sides of Allah. I am the door to Allah."

Al-Kafi H 362, Ch. 23, h 10

Al-Husayn ibn Muhammad has narrated from Mu‘alla ibn Muhammad from Muhammad ibn Jumhur from Ali ibn al-Salt from al-Hakam and Isma‘il sons of Habid from Burayd al-‘Ijli who has said the following. "I heard Imam abu Ja‘far (a.s.) saying, ‘Through us Allah is worshipped. Through us Allah is known. Through us belief in the Oneness of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, is established. Muhammad is the Hijab (curtain) of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High."

The outside apperance of these hadiths don't clearly tell us to ask the Imams (as) to call upon them to ask Allah(swt) for our needs when they leave this world...

As for the first one, this involves some deep issues that i don't really want to get into here at this time. Also, this is all without me going into 'ilm al-rijal since i have issues with the chains of some of these hadiths but Allah(swt) knws best.

i advise you to spend more time on the Quran (without neglecting hadiths). Allah(swt) tells us that He(swt) will answer us:

وَقَالَ رَبُّكُمُ ادْعُونِي أَسْتَجِبْ لَكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يَسْتَكْبِرُونَ عَنْ عِبَادَتِي سَيَدْخُلُونَ جَهَنَّمَ دَاخِرِينَ {60}

[Shakir 40:60] And your Lord says: Call upon Me, I will answer you; surely those who are too proud for My service shall soon enter hell abased.

And we know that the Prophet(pbuh)'s intercession of some people (the oppressors) won't be accepted:

لَيْسَ لَكَ مِنَ الْأَمْرِ شَيْءٌ أَوْ يَتُوبَ عَلَيْهِمْ أَوْ يُعَذِّبَهُمْ فَإِنَّهُمْ ظَالِمُونَ {128}

[Shakir 3:128] You have no concern in the affair whether He turns to them (mercifully) or chastises them, for surely they are unjust.

وَلِلَّهِ مَا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الْأَرْضِ ۚ يَغْفِرُ لِمَنْ يَشَاءُ وَيُعَذِّبُ مَنْ يَشَاءُ ۚ وَاللَّهُ غَفُورٌ رَحِيمٌ {129}

[Shakir 3:129] And whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is Allah's; He forgives whom He pleases and chastises whom He pleases; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

And another:

وَكُنَّا نُكَذِّبُ بِيَوْمِ الدِّينِ {46}

[Shakir 74:46] And we used to call the day of judgment a lie;

حَتَّىٰ أَتَانَا الْيَقِينُ {47}

[Shakir 74:47] Till death overtook us.

فَمَا تَنْفَعُهُمْ شَفَاعَةُ الشَّافِعِينَ {48}

[Shakir 74:48] So the intercession of intercessors shall not avail them.

And Allah(swt) knows best and i seek forgiveness for my mistakes

Edited February 1, 2012 by ImamAliLover

[Dawud Miqdad al-Amriki]

Al-Kafi H 356, Ch. 23, h 4

Al-Husayn ibn Muhammad al-Ash‘ari and Muhammad ibn Yahya altogether have narrated from Ahmad ibn Ishaq from Su‘dan ibn Muslim from Mu‘awiya ibn ‘Ammar from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following about the words of Allah. "God has the most blessed Names. You should address Him in your worship by these Names . . ." (7:180) The Imam said, "We, I swear by Allah, are the most blessed names of Allah without which Allah does not accept any of the good deeds of His servants until they know us properly."

Purified logical deduction:

Qur'an: "Allah has the most blessed names" (7:180)

Imam: "Wallahi we are the most blessed names of Allah" (Al-Kafi H 356, Ch. 23, h 4)

Qur'an: "Call Allah by the most blessed names" (7:180)

Conclusion: "YA ALI, YA HUSSAIN, YA AZ-ZAMAN!"

Case closed inshallah

Edited February 1, 2012 by Dawud Miqdad al-Amriki

[ImamAliLover]

Al-Kafi H 356, Ch. 23, h 4

Al-Husayn ibn Muhammad al-Ash‘ari and Muhammad ibn Yahya altogether have narrated from Ahmad ibn Ishaq from Su‘dan ibn Muslim from Mu‘awiya ibn ‘Ammar from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following about the words of Allah. "God has the most blessed Names. You should address Him in your worship by these Names . . ." (7:180) The Imam said, "We, I swear by Allah, are the most blessed names of Allah without which Allah does not accept any of the good deeds of His servants until they know us properly."

Purified logical deduction:

Qur'an: "Allah has the most blessed names" (7:180)

Imam: "Wallahi we are the most blessed names of Allah" (Al-Kafi H 356, Ch. 23, h 4)

Qur'an: "Call Allah by the most blessed names" (7:180)

Conclusion: "YA ALI, YA HUSSAIN, YA AZ-ZAMAN!"

Case closed inshallah

1)قُلِ ادْعُوا اللَّهَ أَوِ ادْعُوا الرَّحْمَٰنَ ۖ أَيًّا مَا تَدْعُوا فَلَهُ الْأَسْمَاءُ الْحُسْنَىٰ ۚ وَلَا تَجْهَرْ بِصَلَاتِكَ وَلَا تُخَافِتْ بِهَا وَابْتَغِ بَيْنَ ذَٰلِكَ سَبِيلًا {110}

[Shakir 17:110] Say: Call upon Allah or call upon, the Beneficent Allah; whichever you call upon, He has the best names; and do not utter your prayer with a very raised voice nor be silent with regard to it, and seek a way between these.

2) If your interpretation is correct, then how come we don't call upon them in our prayers?

We begin the prayer with takbir al-Ihram (glorifying Allah)

Then read Suah al-Fatiha

then another Surah

then do ruku' and doing tasbih, glorifying AllahÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì

then come up and praising AllahÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì

then do sujood, glorifying AllahÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì

(and repeat)

Which hadith of the Imams (as) told us to call on them in our Salawat? Can you bring a single hadith where they told their companions to do this when they(as) were teaching them salat?

So the interpretation that you have presented doesn't hold up to the test of our salat, which we do at least 5 times a day.

3) Read end of the hadith more carefully:

The Imam said, "We, I swear by Allah, are the most blessed names of Allah without which Allah does not accept any of the good deeds of His servants until they know us properly."

Even though i am not sure about this hadith, the outward meaning is apparently talking about ma'rifah. Not calling upon them. The Imam (as) is not quoted in the hadith as saying to call upon them in this hadith. It says that we have to have ma'rifah of them (as).

May Allah(swt) guide us to what pleases Him and He knows best

Edited February 1, 2012 by ImamAliLover

[Dawud Miqdad al-Amriki]

You seem not to have read the whole hadith.

He said what he said in response to 7:180 of the Qur'an:

Chapter 7: AL-ARAF (THE HEIGHTS) ayat 180

"to Allah belongs the finest names, so call him by them, and keep away from those who pervert them. they shall be recompensed for the things they did."

وَلِلَّهِ الْأَسْمَاءُ الْحُسْنَىٰ فَادْعُوهُ بِهَا ۖ وَذَرُوا الَّذِينَ يُلْحِدُونَ فِي أَسْمَائِهِ ۚ سَيُجْزَوْنَ مَا كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ

Ayat 180 doesn't mention salat or ibadat as far as I see.

Let's look at the Arabic of this Hadith:

الْحُسَيْنُ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ الاشْعَرِيُّ وَمُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى جَمِيعاً عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ إِسْحَاقَ عَنْ سَعْدَانَ بْنِ مُسْلِمٍ عَنْ مُعَاوِيَةَ بْنِ عَمَّارٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ الله (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) فِي قَوْلِ الله عَزَّ وَجَلَّ وَلله الاسْماءُ الْحُسْنى‏ فَادْعُوهُ بِها قَالَ نَحْنُ وَالله الاسْمَاءُ الْحُسْنَى الَّتِي لا يَقْبَلُ الله مِنَ الْعِبَادِ عَمَلاً إِلا بِمَعْرِفَتِنَا

"God has the most blessed Names. You should address Him in your worship by these Names . . ." (7:180) The Imam said, "We, I swear by Allah, are the most blessed names of Allah without which Allah does not accept any of the good deeds of His servants until they know us properly."

(Note: the person who translated Al-Kafi that I have into English may have made a mistake, someone who speaks Arabic can explain better inshallah if required, as I perceive that he has confused the Arabic Ayat of Qur'an in his translation, "You should address Him in your worship by these names...." doesn't exist as part of the Ayat persé... However that doesn't distract from the meaning of the Hadith and the Ayat)

This was not my interpretation, this was a hadith which acts as tafseer of 7:180.

You're mentioning 17:110 which isn't 7:180 so that has a different tafseer which we're not discussing at the moment.

You're doing Qiyas by saying "since 17:110 says this and refers to calling on names of Allah in Salat, how can 7:180 refer to calling on names of Imams when we don't call on them in Salat?"

Al-Kafi H 103, Ch. 11, h 9

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from Yunus from Dawad ibn Farqad from one he narrated from ibn Shubruma (a judge in al-Kufa during the rule of al-Mansur) who has said the following. "I never heard any thing like a statement I heard from Imam abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) and it is almost as he said, ‘Pierced my heart.’" The Imam (a.s.) said, "My father narrated from my great-great-great-great grandfather, the holy Prophet (s.a.) who said, ‘Those who act on the basis of analogy will face their destruction and lead others to their destruction. Those who give fatwas without the knowledge of the abrogating and the abrogated, the clear text and that which requires interpretation, they will face destruction and lead others to their destruction."

Al-Kafi H 162, Ch. 19, h 8

Al-Husayn ibn Muhammad has narrated from Mu‘alla ibn Muhammad from al-Hassan ibn Ali al-Washsha’ from Aban ibn ‘Uthman from abu Shaybah al-Khurasani who has said the following. "Abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) has said, ‘The people of analogy have sought knowledge through analogy and it has increased to their knowledge nothing but further remoteness. The religion of Allah is beyond the reach of analogy.’"

Al-Kafi H 170, Ch. 19, h 15

Muhammad ibn ’Isma‘il has narrated from al-Fadl ibn Shadhan from Safwan Yahya from 'Abd al-Rahman ibn al-Hajjaj from Aban ibn Taghlib from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following. "The Sunnah, tradition of the holy Prophet (s.a.) can not be leaned through analogy. Consider a woman has to make up for her fast missed due to menses but she does not have to make up for the prayers that she would miss in such times. O Aban, the use of analogy destroys religion."

Al-Kafi H 175, Ch. 19, h 20

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from Ahmad ibn ‘Abdallah al-‘Aqili from ‘Isa ibn ‘Abdallah al-Qurashi who has said the following. "Once abu Hanifah came to see Imam abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who said to abu Hanifah, "O abu Hanifah, do you practice analogy as I hear you do?" Abu Hanifah replied, "Yes, I do practice analogy." The Imam then said to him, "Do not practice it because the first person who used analogy was Satan when he said, "Lord, you have created me from fire and created him from clay." He analogized fire with clay. If he would have analogized the light in the clay and fire he would have learned about thdifference between the two lights and the excellence of one over the other."

Edited February 1, 2012 by Dawud Miqdad al-Amriki

[Dawud Miqdad al-Amriki]

(salam)

Some Shi'a are of the opinion that asking the Imaams (as) who are dead for help is shirk; saying "Ya Ali Madad" is shirk; making Du'a to an Imaam to intercede for you and help you by being closer to Allah is shirk...

So I'd like to ask you Shi'a who believe that Tawassul is shirk:

Do you consider it shirk to ask Imam Az-Zaman (AJTF) for help, to intercede for you, to make du'a for you? "Ya Mahdi Madad"

[ImamAliLover]

You're doing Qiyas by saying "since 17:110 says this and refers to calling on names of Allah in Salat, how can 7:180 refer to calling on names of Imams when we don't call on them in Salat?"

i didn't say that. i think you misunderstood me or i didn't make myself clear.

i quoted 17:110 to show an example of where Allah(swt) tells us what some of the al-Asmaa' al-Husnaa are (ie attributes of Him).

And this isn't qiyas because some parts of the Quran explain other parts, just like what Imam Ali (as) is quoted as saying in Nahjul Balagha

Its one part speaks for the other part, and one part testifies to the other.

http://www.nahjulbal....php?Sermon=132

Me bringing up Salat was only to give a practical example of the interpretation you brought. If the Imams (as) are the al-Asmaa' al-Husna, and thus we have to call upon them if we want to call upon Allah سبحانه وتعالى, then how come we don't call upon them at all in the prayer, and we call upon the various attributes of Allah(swt) instead? Like when we say "subhaanAllahi rabbi al-'Adheemi wa bihamdih". We call upon Allah(swt)'s al-Asmaa al-Husnaa in terms of His Attributes, not by calling upon the Imams (as). So the interpretation that you brought doesn't live up to the practical test, because we don't use it in our salat nor do i know of a hadith that tells us to and Allah(swt) knows best.

And as i mentioned in my previous post, the tail end of the hadith talked about ma'rifah, not about calling upon them. You'll find in a number of hadiths about tafisr where it comments on a part of a verse or a particular aspect of the verse, rather than the entire verse.

And Allah(swt) knows best

Edited February 1, 2012 by ImamAliLover

[Dawud Miqdad al-Amriki]

Me bringing up Salat was only to give a practical example of the interpretation you brought. If the Imams (as) are the al-Asmaa' al-Husna, and thus we have to call upon them if we want to call upon Allah سبحانه وتعالى, then how come we don't call upon them at all in the prayer, and we call upon the various attributes of Allah(swt) instead?

...

And Allah(swt) knows best

The part in bold is Qiyas.

I'm not being funny bro, just calling a spade a spade.

The bottom line is that we cannot understand everything 100% but for us Shi'a, everything is halaal until proven Haraam. There's nothing forbidding and in fact plenty of evidence to say it's mustahhab.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Dawud Miqdad al-Amriki

[LoveforTruth]

Assalamu 'alaykum

About interpreting the Quran, we should be very careful :

Ma'ani al akhbaar

رجل القرآن بعضه ببعض الاكفر

(Section title) A man (who mixes) a portion of the Qur'an with another portion is (doing) nothing but kufr (disbelief)

1 - حدثنا محمد بن الحسن - رحمه الله - قال: حدثنا الحسين بن الحسن بن أبان، عن الحسين بن سعيد، عن النضر بن سويد، عن القاسم بن سليمان، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال: قال لي أبي عليه السلام: ما ضرب رجل القرآن بعضه ببعض إلا كفر. وسألت محمد بن الحسن - رحمه الله - عن معنى هذا الحديث فقال: هو أن تجيب الرجل في تفسير آية بتفسير آيه اخرى

Told us Muhammad b. al Hasan(ra) who said: Told us al Hussain b. al Hasan b. Abaan, from al Hussain b. Sa'eed, from al Nudhr b. Suwaid, from al Qasim b. Sulaiman, from Abi Abdullah(as) who said: Said of (to) me my(as) father(as): "Doesn't strike a man a portion of the Qur'an with another portion except (that it is) kufr (disbelief)." And (Shaikh Sadooq) asked Muhammad b. al Hasan(ra) about meaning of this hadith so he said: "It is explaining about the man in doing tafseer(exegesis/explanation) of an ayat(verse of Qur'an) with another ayat."

Interpretation of Qur'an

Kafi

محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن ابن فضال، عن ثعلبة بن ميمون، عمن حدثه، عن المعلى بن خنيس قال: قال أبوعبدالله (عليه السلام): ما من أمر يختلف فيه اثنان إلا وله أصل في كتاب الله عزوجل ولكن لا تبلغه عقول الرجال

Muhammad b. Yahya, from Ahmad b. Muhammad, from ibn Fudhal, from Tha'labah b. Maymoon, from one who told him, from al Mu'ala b. Khunees who said: Aba Abdullah(as) said: "There is not from an issue in which two people may differ but that and for it is a principle in book of Allah(swt) but the intellects of the men can not understand/reach it."

Tafseer al ayyashi

عن عبد الرحمن بن الحجاج قال: سمعت أبا عبد الله عليه السلام يقول: ليس ابعد من

عقول الرجال من القرآن

From Abdur Rahman b. al Hajjaj who said: I heard Aba Abdullah(as) say: "Nothing is beyond/further from the intellects of men than the Qur'an."

عن هشام بن سالم عن أبى عبد الله عليه السلام قال: من فسر القرآن برأيه فاصاب لم يوجر، وان اخطأ كان اثمه عليه

From Hisham b. Saalim from Abi Abdullah(as) who said: "Whoever exegesis the Qur'an with his opinion, so (if ) hits(the mark) there would be no reward and if he made mistake then his sin is upon him."

عن ابى بصير عن أبى عبد الله عليه السلام قال: من فسر القرآن برأيه ان أصاب لم يوجر و أن أخطأ فهو أبعد من السماء

From Abi Baseer from Abi Abdullah(as) who said: "Whoever exegesis the Qur'an with his opinion, if hits(the mark) there would be no reward and if mistaken then he is further from sky/heaven."

Edited February 2, 2012 by LoveforTruth

[Your-Best-Friend]

JAZAKALLAAH KHAIR BROTHER.

[Haydar Husayn]

The part in bold is Qiyas.

I'm not being funny bro, just calling a spade a spade.

The bottom line is that we cannot understand everything 100% but for us Shi'a, everything is halaal until proven Haraam. There's nothing forbidding and in fact plenty of evidence to say it's mustahhab.

I think when it comes to something like Shirk, better to be safe than sorry, rather than go by the 'halal until proven haram' principle. And the fact is, you are reading things into these ahadith. If the Imams wanted us to call upon them, then they would have said so explicitly, not relied on us to make dubious 'logical deductions'.

In light of the many ayats in the Quran that say only to call upon Allah, it seems unnecessarily risky to try to stick a handful of hadiths together in order to try to prove something that not only goes against the apparent meaning of the Quran, but also has no basis in the explicit narrations passed down to us from the Imams (as). Neither did any of the early scholars apparently believe in this. You rely heavily on al-Kafi in your arguments, but where is the evidence al-Khulayni used to call on the Imams (as)? Or the likes of al-Saduq, al-Mufeed, al-Tusi, etc. They all studied al-Kafi extensively, yet they apparently didn't reach the same conclusions you have. And remember that they had access to ahadith that are now lost to us.

Hypothetically, what if you are wrong about this? What will your excuse be on the Day of Judgement when you are asked whether you read the Quran, and saw the ayats telling you to onl call upon Allah? That your interpretation of a couple of hadiths in al-Kafi told you different? You think that is going to cut it?

On the other hand, what if we are wrong, and it was allowed to call upon the Imams (as)? What have we lost? Nothing. We still make dua in the way recommended by the Imams (as) in the ahadith, and logically speaking nothing can be better than what they taught.

Even if I thought there was any doubt about this, which I don't, I just don't see how it could possibly be worth the risk.

[LoveforTruth]

Excuse me, but none of you ever ask your parents, your friends, to pray for you ?

Nobody ever asks you to pray for them ?

Don't you ever pray for other Muslims around you : for their health, for success in this world and the Hereafter, ... ?

Don't you know that if you ask something for someone else, Allah (SWT) will give you the same ?

Don't you know that Fatima Zahra (as) used to pray for everybody ?

How could you fear that it could be shirk ?

[Haydar Husayn]

This has been answered many times before. Asking someone to pray for you when they are right in front of you and can hear you is not the same thing as calling on someone who is in a different physical realm to help you. Allah says in the Qur'an many times not to call on other than Him. He doesn't tell the people of the book that they can call on their Prophets, does he? He could easily have said "don't call on other than me, and those who I have chosen", or something along those lines, but He didn't.

[Alejandro Sosa]

(bismillah)

Al-Kafi H 360, Ch. 23, h 8

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Muhammad ibn al-Husayn from Ahmad ibn abu Nasr from Hassan al-Jammal who has said that Hashim ibn abu ‘Ammara al-Janbi reported to him this. "I heard Amirul Mu’minin Ali (a.s.) saying, ‘I am the eyes of Allah. I am the hands of Allah. I am the sides of Allah. I am the door to Allah."

Does this really sound like the arrogant, almost shirk-like speech of the man who wrote Dua Kumail?

[Dawud Miqdad al-Amriki]

This has been answered many times before. Asking someone to pray for you when they are right in front of you and can hear you is not the same thing as calling on someone who is in a different physical realm to help you. Allah says in the Qur'an many times not to call on other than Him. He doesn't tell the people of the book that they can call on their Prophets, does he? He could easily have said "don't call on other than me, and those who I have chosen", or something along those lines, but He didn't.

So what is the difference between asking someone who you perceive with your 5 senses and asking someone who you cannot or do not perceive with your 5 senses?

Can we perceive the Mahdi (as)? Does that mean he isn't helping us? Should I start quoting the riwayah which speak of his importance even though we do not perceive him with our 5 senses right now?

Can we perceive al-Khidr (as) who is the Mahdi's (ajtf) companion during his occultation? The riwayah say that whenever Khidr's (as) name is mentioned, we should say "Asalaamu 'alaykum Khidr" because he is present. It is shirk to say salaams to Khidr who we cannot perceive with our 5 senses?

Can you prove Allah is real? You cannot and will not ever perceive Allah with your 5 senses, it is FAITH. Are you saying your faith is pointless since it cannot be perceived?

The point of the above rhetorical questions is thus: not everything is what it seems, and a large part of our belief is pure faith without conclusive proof from the 5 earthly senses, but that doesn't work as an argument to say it isn't real and doesn't benefit us, this is the logic of an atheist, not a Mu'min.

Does this really sound like the arrogant, almost shirk-like speech of the man who wrote Dua Kumail?

Astagfirullah bro, it's not arrogant, don't refer to Imaams (as) as arrogant due to your misunderstanding.

[Haydar Husayn]

So what is the difference between asking someone who you perceive with your 5 senses and asking someone who you cannot or do not perceive with your 5 senses?

Can we perceive the Mahdi (as)? Does that mean he isn't helping us? Should I start quoting the riwayah which speak of his importance even though we do not perceive him with our 5 senses right now?

Can we perceive al-Khidr (as) who is the Mahdi's (ajtf) companion during his occultation? The riwayah say that whenever Khidr's (as) name is mentioned, we should say "Asalaamu 'alaykum Khidr" because he is present. It is shirk to say salaams to Khidr who we cannot perceive with our 5 senses?

Can you prove Allah is real? You cannot and will not ever perceive Allah with your 5 senses, it is FAITH. Are you saying your faith is pointless since it cannot be perceived?

The point of the above rhetorical questions is thus: not everything is what it seems, and a large part of our belief is pure faith without conclusive proof from the 5 earthly senses, but that doesn't work as an argument to say it isn't real and doesn't benefit us, this is the logic of an atheist, not a Mu'min.

The difference is we have the Quran and narrations for the other things you talked about. We don't for calling upon the Imams (as), and we have proof against doing that from the Quran. I still haven't heard a single good reason why this should be risked. Unless someone wants to say it is a superior way of making dua to what the Imams (as) taught.

[Dawud Miqdad al-Amriki]

The difference is we have the Quran and narrations for the other things you talked about. We don't for calling upon the Imams (as), and we have proof against doing that from the Quran. I still haven't heard a single good reason why this should be risked. Unless someone wants to say it is a superior way of making dua to what the Imams (as) taught.

"So what is the difference between asking someone who you perceive with your 5 senses and asking someone who you cannot or do not perceive with your 5 senses?"

Sorry, I know I said the questions were rhetorical, but this one was exclusive, could you please answer this question?

Because we know that asking someone to make du'a for us and help us is not Shirk. The contention of the Bakri Salafies is that we cannot call on the dead for help, which seems to be your argument as well, if not then please clarify.

"And do not speak of those who are slain in the the Way of Allah as dead; nay, they are alive, but you perceive not." Qur'an 2:154

Edited February 2, 2012 by Dawud Miqdad al-Amriki

[Haydar Husayn]

"So what is the difference between asking someone who you perceive with your 5 senses and asking someone who you cannot or do not perceive with your 5 senses?"

Sorry, I know I said the questions were rhetorical, but this one was exclusive, could you please answer this question?

Because we know that asking someone to make du'a for us and help us is not Shirk. The contention of the Bakri Salafies is that we cannot call on the dead for help, which seems to be your argument as well, if not then please clarify.

"And do not speak of those who are slain in the the Way of Allah as dead; nay, they are alive, but you perceive not." Qur'an 2:154

No, it's not because they are dead. If they were alive on earth, but were far away from me, I couldn't call upon them, because they wouldn't hear me. The narrations are clear that the only time you can be sure the Masumeen (as) hear us is when we send salam from near their graves. There is no evidence for anything else. Even if you wanted to extrapolate that they can hear your requests for making dua from near their graves, it still wouln't cover calling on them from anywhere.

You also seem to be trying to blur the two issues of calling upon them to make dua to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, and calling upon them to help directly out of their own power. The latter is probably the more common of the two, and nobody has made much of an effort to prove that is allowed.

And can we leave the 'Bakris' out of this? I know it is the favourite term of Yassir al-Habib, but it just sounds stupid. There is no need to bring up Sunnis in a conversation among Shias anyway.

[LoveforTruth]

http://www.duas.org/alqama.htm

In some books of supplication, this supplication is referred to as "Dua Alqamah" named after the companion of Imam Sadiq (a), Alqamah. However, Shaykh Abbas Qummi (qs) quotes very clear traditions in mafatih al-jinan that Imam Sadiq (a) recited this dua in the presence of the companion Safwan, not Alqamah. Therefore, the correct name of this supplication is "Dua to be recited after Ziyarat-e-Ashura" or "Dua Safwan".

(...)

I beseech Thee in the name of Muhammad, the last Prophet, and Ali, the commander of the faithfuls, in the name of Fatimah, the daughter of Thy Prophet, and in the name of Hasan and Husayn. I direct myself towards Thee, through them, in my address, through them I try to get a hearing, through them I put forward my case to get Thy favours, in their names I make a request to Thee;

bound to Thee by oat, living a life according to Thy commands, I carry out my pledge by every means, in the name of the love and devotion Thou has for them, and the influence and status they enjoy in every dimension of Thy will, the superior most pre-eminence in wisdom and character Thou bestowed upon them to transcend above everything in the whole universe, in the name of Thy name Thou revealed to them in trust, on account of which Thou chose them in preference over everything found in the heavens and the earths, through which Thou built their syndrome, developed to perfection their surpassing excellence in knowledge, learning and deeds, out of all the rest of the people, till their completeness surpassed the total achievement of all the people put together; I request Thee to send blessings on Muhammad and on the children of Muhammad;

(...)

O Ameerul-Mu’mineen! O Abaa Abdullah! So far I am live and the days and nights follow each other I invoke Allah to send blessings on you forever and ever. May Allah not make my this pledge of physical and spiritual close association with you (both) the last fulfillment, and may Allah not separate me and you (both) from one another.

O my Allah let me have a meaningful existence as Muhammad his descendants had lived, and die as they departed from this world, take to and carry out completely their creed; and raise me for the last judgment alongwith the people dedicated to them, and do not cut (us) in two (groups), even for the flash of an eyelid, ever, either in this world or in the life of the hereafter.

O Ameerul Moomineen! O Abaa Abdullah! I come nearer to (you both) to establish close physical and spiritual relationship, and thereby seek nearness to Allah, my lord Nourishes and your lord Nourisher, through you I direct myself towards Him, and request you to speak in favour of my immediate at hand needs and wants I have put before Allah. So please speak well of me because, of course, with Allah your thoughtful judgement is highly credible, your disposition enjoys conclusive preference, your action keeps step with precise acumen, and a sure means of approach to gain His favour.

I looked for and went through all possibilities and finally brought myself over to you in the hope of obtaining, speedily and successfully, fulfillment of my demands, their final settlement and favorable execution by Allah on account of your recommendations on my behalf to get Allah’s approval.

So, let not my “seeing the light” be a bitter and “fallen short” change of heart, but make my “accepting the true faith” resolution a turning point leading to preference and full satisfaction in the matter of the disposal of my wants and needs; and direct me to bring myself over to that which Allah wills and commands. (because) there is no power and no might save Allah. I commit my case to Allah, anything neglected or taking place behind my back shall be taken care of Allah, I entrust Allah with the management of my affairs, and say: Allah is sufficient and enough, Allah pays attention to whoso makes a request to Him, there is nothing for me in that which is on the other side (in opposition) of Allah, and you,

O my leaders, ultimately that which my lord Nourisher wills takes place, and happens not that which He wills not.

There is no power and no might save in Allah. Unto you (both) I have come with love and affection, motivated under Divine incentive. May Allah not make my this pledge of physical and spiritual close association with you (both) the last fulfillment.

I take advantage O my leader, O Ameerul Momineen, O my friend to whom I have surrendered, body and soul, and you O Abaa Abdullah, O my leader, and pay respects with love and affection, nonstop, (till) do not carry embracing days and nights, closely embracing it, to you, if Allah so wills, without ever being separated,

in your names I beseech Him, that He wills it and does it because verily it is He who alone is praised, and he brings about beautiful things.

I see the light and bring myself over to you, accepting the true faith, sorry for my earlier ignorance, thankful to Allah, always hopeful of getting His favour, never giving into despair, nor losing heart, ever ready to be near you, coming back again and again to see you, never “not longing” for your nearness, but, if Allah so wills, shall be always in your neighborhood as and everyday habit.

There is no power and no might save in Allah.

O my leaders I long for you and love to be in your company though the worldly people looked at it with indifference and kept aloof from your friendly intercourse.

May not Allah let me fall short of in that which I hope for and in that which I look long and attentively to establish everlasting reunion with you. Verily He is near and gives positive answer to prayers.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Replicant
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[LoveforTruth]

It is written in ‘Kitabul Irshad’ that Hamran bin Aan heard from Qasim bin Mohammed bin Abu

Bakr who narrates from Rameela, who was very close and devout companion of Amir-ulMomaneen

sws

http://hubeali.com/k...s-Tradition.pdf

(...)

O Rameela! There is not a single instant that a momin or a momina suffers from an illness and

I am not affected by it. And it is not possible if someone is grieved and I do not share his

misery and I say Amen! upon hearing his prayer, I keep on praying for him even after he seizes

to pray for himself.

Rameela: You sws are very kind to all those who are with you and live in this city. But, how

about those who live far away from here?

O Rameela! There is not a single ‘momin’ or ‘momina’ who is obscured from us, regardless of where they live, they call upon us and we protect them, wherever they are, in the East or in the West.

Khutabah of Amir ul momaneen (as), Nahjul Asrar

(...)

For the Imamasws are both the justice and the truth.

A column of light (stretching) from the earth to the sky is

created for him, in which he witnesses the actions of the mankind. He

asws is enrobed in the cloak of power and dignity;

he knows what is in the minds and has access to the unseen-al-ghayb;

he has been entrusted with absolute power (in conducting his affairs);

he beholds all that rests between the dominions of the East and the West:

Nor is anything from the realms of ‘Mulk and Malakoot’ which is hidden from him;

and he has the ability to communicate with the birds, who submit to his

asws Wilayah

http://hubeali.com/khutbat/Hadith-e-Tariq.pdf

Indeed, the heavens and the earth to the Imam are like the hand and its palm. He recognises what

is visible as well as what is hidden; He knows the pious among the sinners;

what is in the wet and within the dry forms. This is because Allah

azwj has taught his Prophet saww the knowledge of what has been

passed and what would appear, and all these protected secrete were inherited by Prophet’s

noble Awliyah. Whosoever, denies this is a cruel and cursed wretch, and

as such is cursed by Allah azwj as well as by all those who also send curse in

Allah azwj's obedience.

How could Allah azwj make incumbent upon his servants the obedience of

the one who is veiled from the mysteries of the heavens and the

earth. The reality is that, a single word uttered (in Quran) in the praise

of Aal-e-Muhammed, exceeds seventy dimensions (of knowledge).

(Consider further), How often in the verses of the Noble reminder, the

blessed book, the eternal words are mentioned in our praise, i.e., al-Ayn

(eye), al-Wajh (face), al-Yadh (hand) and al-Janb (side). (It is obvious

that) What is meant by these words is this Wilayah (pointing to

himself asws), as Imam asws is the side of Allah azwj , the face of Allah azwj ,

that is, the reality of Allah azwj , the knowledge of Allah azwj

, and the essence of Allah azwj. (As for the phrase) ‘Hand of Allah

azwj ’ they are the manifestation of the implicit dimensions of the visible attributes.

Thus, their (Ahlaibait’s) implicit is the manifestation of the Allah

azwj ’s explicit attributes.

They asws are the explicit manifestation of the implicit and the implicit

dimensions of the explicit. This is alluded to in the saying of the

Prophet saww “Indeed Allah azwj has no eyes and hands, but surely you and me,

Ya Ali asws, are from them”.

Edited February 2, 2012 by LoveforTruth

[Dawud Miqdad al-Amriki]

I'll remind you of these words of Imam al-Hasan Mujtaba (as)

Kamaaluddin by Sheikh Sadooq, (page 316) Abi Saeed Aqisa narrates: “When Hasan bin Ali (a.s.) signed the peace treaty with Muawiyah some people came to him a condemned him for making peace. So he said: Woe be on you, you don’t know why I did that. By Allah whatever I have done is better for my followers (Shias) than everything. Don’t you know that I am your Imam whose obedience is incumbent on you? And on the basis of the statement of the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.s.) I am one of the chiefs of the youths of Paradise? All said: Yes, indeed it is so. The Imam said: Don’t you know that when Khizr (a.s.) made a hole in the boat, repaired the wall and killed a boy, Musa bin Imran (a.s.) did not like it since he was unaware of the wisdom behind those actions, even though all those actions were according to the dictates of divine wisdom? Do you know that there is none among us who did not have the allegiance of the tyrant ruler of his time around his neck, except for Qaim, behind whom the Spirit of Allah, Isa bin Maryam will pray? Indeed, Allah, the Mighty and the Sublime has kept his birth secret and his person unseen. When he reappears, he would not have the allegiance of anyone upon his neck. He is the ninth descendant of my brother, Husain. He is the son of the best of the maidservants. The Almighty Allah will prolong his age during the occultation, then He would, through His power, make him appear as a youthful man of less than forty years of age so that it may be known that the Almighty Allah is powerful over everything.”

Everything isn't what it seems and just because you can't see or hear something doesn't make it untrue.

Is it shirk for the one who is deaf and blind to ask someone for help whom they can neither see nor hear?

No, it's not because they are dead. If they were alive on earth, but were far away from me, I couldn't call upon them, because they wouldn't hear me.

The Sahabah were taught to say "Asalaamu 3layka ayyuhannabiyu wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh" in their Salat, even when they were at the back rows of prayer where the Prophet (pbuh) couldn't hear... Even when they migrated out of Mecca to Medina where the Prophet (pbuh) was still in Mecca... Even when they went outside of the Hijaz to spread the message of Islam.... Even after the Prophet (pbuh) died.

(Kamaaluddin by Sheikh Sadooq, page 63) Narrated to us Ali bin Husain bin Ali bin Faddal from his father from Abul Hasan Ali bin Musa ar-Reza (a.s.) that he said: “When the Prophet (s.a.w.s.) passed away from this world a man came and stood behind the house presenting his condolences. Ahle Bayt (a.s.) heard him but could not see him. So Ali Ibne Abi Talib (a.s.) said: This is Khizr (a.s.), who has come to give condolence for your Prophet.”

The narrations are clear that the only time you can be sure the Masumeen (as) hear us is when we send salam from near their graves. There is no evidence for anything else. Even if you wanted to extrapolate that they can hear your requests for making dua from near their graves, it still wouln't cover calling on them from anywhere.

al-Kafi H , Ch. 110, h 1

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from ibn Mahbub from Salih ibn Sahl from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) the following. "A man came to Amir al-Mu’minin Ali (a.s.) when he was in the company of his companions. The man offered greetings and said, "By Allah, I love you and acknowledge your Wilaya (Leadership with Divine Authority)." Amir al-Mu’minin Ali (a.s.) said to him, "What you say is not true." He said, "Yes, by Allah, I love you and acknowledge your Wilaya. He repeated it three times." Amir al-Mu’minin Ali (a.s.) said, "What you say is not true. You are not what you say you are. Allah created the spirits two thousand years before creating the bodies. He then presented to us those who love us. By Allah, I did not see your spirit among those presented to us. Where were you." The man remained silent and did not talk back." In an other hadith it is said that abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) said, "He was in thefire."

Al-Kafi H , Ch. 110, h 3

Ahmad ibn Idris and Muhammad ibn Yahya havenarrated from al-Hassan ibn Ali al-Kufi from ‘Ubays ibn Hisham from ‘Abdallah ibn Sulayman who has said the following. "I asked abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) about the Imam. Has Allah made him the in charge of the and in full control (over the affairs of the people) as Sulayman ibn Dawud was?" The Imam (a.s.) said, "Yes, he is given control. It is because a man asked him a question and he gave the answer. Another person asked the same question and he gave him a different answer (although the question was the same). A third person asked him the same question and he gave an answer that was different from both the previous answers. Then he said, "This is Our gift to you so give them away free or keep them as you like." (38:39). This is charity from us enjoy it with thanks or ( give to others) without being questioned. This is according to Imam Ali’s recitation." The narrator has said that I said to him, "May Allah grant you well being, when the he gives such answers does the Imam know them?" The Imam (a.s.) said, "Glory belongs to Allah. Have you not heard Allah words? " In this there is evidence (of the Truth) for the discreet ones. (15:75) (Such people are the Imams (a.s.) That town lies on a road which still exists (15:76) (It will remain there for ever)." Then The Imam (a.s.) said to me, "Yes, when the Imam look at a person he recognizes him and his color. On hearing his words even from behind the wall he recognizes him and what he is. Allah has said, "Other evidence of His existence are the creation of the heavens and the earth and the differences of languages and colors. In this there is evidence (of the truth) for the worlds (mankind)." (30:22) The Imams are the scholars. Whatever they would hear that is spoken they recognize it, the one who has received salvation or one who is destroyed. For this reason they answer them as they answerthem."

Al-Kafi H , Ch. 109, h 1

Muhammad ibn ya‘qub al-Kulayni has narrated from Muhammad ibn al-Hassan and Ali ibn Muhammad from Sahl ibn Ziyad from ibn Mahbub from ibn Al-Ri’ab from Bukayr ibn ‘A‘yan who has said the following. "Abu Ja‘far (a.s.) used to say, "Allah made our Shi‘a (followers) to acknowledge our Wilaya Leadership with Divine Authority) when they were only in the realm of small particles. It was the day when Allah made the small particles to acknowledge Him as the Lord and Muhammad (s.a) as His prophet."

If the Imaams existed before creation and were given this station, then who are you to say that they don't exist in some greater form after death? You want people to believe that they're in their graves and completely oblivious, when they were more aware and cognizant than any other creation even before physical creation of this Universe. Subhanallah.

(Kamaaluddin by Sheikh Sadooq, page 62) Hasan bin Ali bin Faddal that he said: I heard Imam ar-Reza (a.s.) say: “Khizr (a.s.) drank from the nectar of life. Thus he is alive and will not die till the bugle is blown. Indeed he comes to us and he greets us by Salaam. His voice is audible but he could not be seen. And he is present wherever his name is mentioned. Thus whomsoever of you mentions him, must say Salaam to him. Every year he is present in the ceremonies of Hajj. He performs all the rituals and he camps at Arafat; says Amen to the prayers of believers. And the Almighty Allah changes the loneliness of our Qaim (a.s.) during his occultation into his companionship and removes his loneliness through him (Khizr).”

Al-Kafi H 601, Ch. 33, h 4

Ahmad ibn Idris has narrated from Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Jabbar from Safwan ibn Yahya from Shu‘ayb al-Haddad from Durays al-Kunasi who has said the following. "I was in the presence of abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) and abu Basir also was there. The Imams (a.s.) said, "David inherited the knowledge of the prophets. Solomon inherited David. Prophet Muhammad (s.a.) inherited Solomon and we inherited Muhammad (s.a.). With us are the pages of Abraham and the tablets of Moses." Abu Basir then said, "This is the knowledge." The Imams (a.s.) said, "O abu Muhammad, this is not the knowledge. The knowledge is what happens in the nights and in the days, day after day and hour after hour."

So according to the words of the Imaam (as), he knows our Du'as, "day after day, hour after hour".

You also seem to be trying to blur the two issues of calling upon them to make dua to Allah سبحانه وتعالى, and calling upon them to help directly out of their own power. The latter is probably the more common of the two, and nobody has made much of an effort to prove that is allowed.

If someone thinks that they help them and not Allah when they say "Ya 'Ali Madad" then that's their problem, not mine.

The Prophet (pbuh) knew what he was asking for when he shouted "Ya 'Ali Madad" on the battlefield of Uhud. He is a Prophet of Allah, all he has to do is say "Ya Allah", but no, he chose to say "Ya 'Ali Madad", we honour him by saying these same words.

And can we leave the 'Bakris' out of this? I know it is the favourite term of Yassir al-Habib, but it just sounds stupid. There is no need to bring up Sunnis in a conversation among Shias anyway.

"Bakriyyah" is an ancient term long before Sheikh Yasser al-Habib, and you are defending Bakri beliefs while attacking Shi'a beliefs, so of course you've made Bakri theology a part of the conversation.

http://www.duas.org/alqama.htm

In some books of supplication, this supplication is referred to as "Dua Alqamah" named after the companion of Imam Sadiq (a), Alqamah. However, Shaykh Abbas Qummi (qs) quotes very clear traditions in mafatih al-jinan that Imam Sadiq (a) recited this dua in the presence of the companion Safwan, not Alqamah. Therefore, the correct name of this supplication is "Dua to be recited after Ziyarat-e-Ashura" or "Dua Safwan".

I suspect they reject this Du'a as fabricated just like Du'a Tawassul. We should burn all of our du'a books since they're all Shirk. I'm starting to have déja vu of Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab and Ibn Taymiyyah.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Dawud Miqdad al-Amriki

[LoveforTruth]

O Salmán! The slain among us is not dead and can never be eliminated. The

one who is in occultation- is amongst us and performs his duties as we do.

O Salmán! all Prophets have gained honour due to us.

You can praise us with whatever titles and attributes (one can imagine)

but do not ascribe ‘Rabuviat’ to us (believe we have a creator).

People find salvation through us and reach destruction due to us (for bearing enemosity to us).

O Salmán! he who firmly believes in all what I presented and explained,

is that ‘Momin’ whose ‘Qalab’ (heart) has been tested by Allah azwj with ‘Aiman’.

And he is pleased with our attributes. But whoever doubts and hesitate, he

has reneged on the Faith, although he may pronounce that he believes in my

Wiláyat.

O Salmán! myself, and the Divine guides of my family, the Imáms, are the

hidden mystery of Allah azwj ! and His nominated guardians.

We are all one, our ‘Amr’ (cause/wish) is one, our mystery is one. Thus do not try to

find distinctions among us or you will be killed (loose faith). We will be

kept on appearing in all times and have our manifestation in every age as per

Allah azwj‘s will. Woe be onto the one who denies us! None shall refute these,

except the one whose heart, eyes and hearing has been sealed...

http://hubeali.com/khutbat/The%20Sermon%20of%20Recognition%20of%20Noor.pdf

[Haydar Husayn]

hubeali.com? Lol. Hard to take anything on that site seriously. What is the primary source for this sermon? Anyway, it still doesn't say you can call upon the Imams (as).

[LoveforTruth]

Al-Kafi :

The Imams are the corner stone on earth

1ـ أَحْمَدُ بْنُ مِهْرَانَ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَلِيٍّ وَمُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ جَمِيعاً عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ سِنَانٍ عَنِ الْمُفَضَّلِ بْنِ عُمَرَ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ الله (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) قَالَ مَا جَاءَ بِهِ علي (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) آخُذُ بِهِ وَمَا نَهَى عَنْهُ أَنْتَهِي عَنْهُ جَرَى لَهُ مِنَ الْفَضْلِ مِثْلُ مَا جَرَى لِمُحَمَّدٍ (صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِه) وَلِمُحَمَّدٍ (صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِه) الْفَضْلُ عَلَى جَمِيعِ مَنْ خَلَقَ الله عَزَّ وَجَلَّ الْمُتَعَقِّبُ عَلَيْهِ فِي شَيْ‏ءٍ مِنْ أَحْكَامِهِ كَالْمُتَعَقِّبِ عَلَى الله وَعَلَى رَسُولِهِ وَالرَّادُّ عَلَيْهِ فِي صَغِيرَةٍ أَوْ كَبِيرَةٍ عَلَى حَدِّ الشِّرْكِ بِالله كَانَ أَمِيرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) بَابَ الله الَّذِي لا يُؤْتَى إِلا مِنْهُ وَسَبِيلَهُ الَّذِي مَنْ سَلَكَ بِغَيْرِهِ هَلَكَ وَكَذَلِكَ يَجْرِي الائِمَّةُ الْهُدَى وَاحِداً بَعْدَ وَاحِدٍ جَعَلَهُمُ الله أَرْكَانَ الارْضِ أَنْ تَمِيدَ بِأَهْلِهَا وَحُجَّتَهُ الْبَالِغَةَ عَلَى مَنْ فَوْقَ الارْضِ وَمَنْ تَحْتَ الثَّرَى وَكَانَ أَمِيرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ (صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِه) كَثِيراً مَا يَقُولُ أَنَا قَسِيمُ الله بَيْنَ الْجَنَّةِ وَالنَّارِ وَأَنَا الْفَارُوقُ الاكْبَرُ وَأَنَا صَاحِبُ الْعَصَا وَالْمِيسَمِ وَلَقَدْ أَقَرَّتْ لِي جَمِيعُ الْمَلائِكَةِ وَالرُّوحُ وَالرُّسُلُ بِمِثْلِ مَا أَقَرُّوا بِهِ لِمُحَمَّدٍ (صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِه) وَلَقَدْ حُمِلْتُ عَلَى مِثْلِ حَمُولَتِهِ وَهِيَ حَمُولَةُ الرَّبِّ وَإِنَّ رَسُولَ الله (صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِه) يُدْعَى فَيُكْسَى وَأُدْعَى فَأُكْسَى وَيُسْتَنْطَقُ وَأُسْتَنْطَقُ فَأَنْطِقُ عَلَى حَدِّ مَنْطِقِهِ وَلَقَدْ أُعْطِيتُ خِصَالاً مَا سَبَقَنِي إِلَيْهَا أَحَدٌ قَبْلِي عُلِّمْتُ الْمَنَايَا وَالْبَلايَا وَالانْسَابَ وَفَصْلَ الْخِطَابِ فَلَمْ يَفُتْنِي مَا سَبَقَنِي وَلَمْ يَعْزُبْ عَنِّي مَا غَابَ عَنِّي أُبَشِّرُ بِإِذْنِ الله وَأُؤَدِّي عَنْهُ كُلُّ ذَلِكَ مِنَ الله مَكَّنَنِي فِيهِ بِعِلْمِهِ.

الْحُسَيْنُ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ الاشْعَرِيُّ عَنْ مُعَلَّى بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ جُمْهُورٍ الْعَمِّيِّ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ سِنَانٍ قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا الْمُفَضَّلُ قَالَ سَمِعْتُ أَبَا عَبْدِ الله (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) يَقُولُ ثُمَّ ذَكَرَ الْحَدِيثَ الاوَّلَ.

1. Ahmad ibn Mahran from Muhammad ibn Ali and Muhammad ibn Yahya from Ahmad ibn Muhammad altogether from Muhammad ibn Sinan from al-Mufaddal ibn ‘Umar from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following. "Whatever Imam Ali (a.s.) has brought I follow them entirely and whatever he has forbidden I desist from them altogether. Whatever virtue that were found in the Holy Prophet (s.a.) were found in Imam Ali (a.s.) also.

The Holy Prophet was more virtuous than all of the creatures of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High. Those turning away from any item of his (Imam Ali) guidance would be like one turning away from the guidance of Allah and His Prophet.

Rejecting him in small or a great one matters would like considering things like Allah (shirk).

Amir al-Mu’minin Ali (a.s.) was the gate to Allah through which only, people could go closer to Him.

Imam Ali (a.s.) was the path that if one would ignore it he would have been destroyed. This is also true of all the Imams of guidance one after the other.

Allah has made them as the cornerstones of the earth so that people on it would not be destroyed.

They possess the doubtless Divine authority over the inhabitants of earth and those below the earth.

Amir al-Mu’minin Ali (a.s.) would very often say, "I am the supervisor for Allah to see who should go to Paradise and who should go to Hell. I am the greatest criterion, the possessor of the staff and the (marking) seal Miysam All the angels and the spirit have acknowledged the existence in me of all the matters that they had acknowledge in Prophet Muhammad (s.a.). I am held responsible for all such matters that Prophet Muhammad (s.a.) was held responsible.

Such responsibilities are the duties to Allah, the Lord.

The Holy Prophet will be called upon and his call will be accepted.

I will be called up on and my call will be accepted.

The Holy Prophet will be made to speak and I will be made to speak and I will speak just the way he would speak.

I have been given certain distinctions which are given to no one before me.

I was taught all about the deaths, the sufferings, the genealogy of people and clear speech I have not missed any of the knowledge that have passed me by and nothing of the future is unseen or unknown to me.

I give good news by the permission of Allah and do my duty towards Allah.

All of these is from Allah Who has made it possible for me through His knowledge."

Al-Husayn ibn Muhammad al-Ash‘ari has narrated from Mu‘alla ibn Muhammad from Muhammad ibn Jumhur al-‘Ammi from Muhammad ibn Sinan who has said that al-Mufaddal narrated to us from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.). He then narrated the above Hadith.

Chapter 29

The deeds of the people are presented before the Holy Prophet (s.a.) and the Imams (a.s.)

1ـ مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنِ الْحُسَيْنِ بْنِ سَعِيدٍ عَنِ الْقَاسِمِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنْ عَلِيِّ بْنِ أَبِي حَمْزَةَ عَنْ أَبِي بَصِيرٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ الله (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) قَالَ تُعْرَضُ الاعْمَالُ عَلَى رَسُولِ الله (صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِه) أَعْمَالُ الْعِبَادِ كُلَّ صَبَاحٍ أَبْرَارُهَا وَفُجَّارُهَا فَاحْذَرُوهَا وَهُوَ قَوْلُ الله تَعَالَى اعْمَلُوا فَسَيَرَى الله عَمَلَكُمْ وَرَسُولُهُ وَسَكَتَ.

1. Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from al-Husayn ibn Sa‘id from al-Qasim ibn Muhammad from Ali ibn abu Hamza from abu Basir from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following. "All deeds are presented before the Messenger of Allah (saws). It is the deeds of the all the virtuous and the evil doing servants (of Allah) that are presented every morning and evenings (before the Messenger of Allah). So pay proper attention to it and be very careful. The following verse of the Holy Quran is a reference to this. "(Muhammad), tell them, "Act as you wish. God will see your deeds and so will do His Messenger. . . ." (9:106) The Imams (a.s.) paused at this point and did not read any further."

2ـ عِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنِ الْحُسَيْنِ بْنِ سَعِيدٍ عَنِ النَّضْرِ بْنِ سُوَيْدٍ عَنْ يَحْيَى الْحَلَبِيِّ عَنْ عَبْدِ الْحَمِيدِ الطَّائِيِّ عَنْ يَعْقُوبَ بْنِ شُعَيْبٍ قَالَ سَأَلْتُ أَبَا عَبْدِ الله (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) عَنْ قَوْلِ الله عَزَّ وَجَلَّ اعْمَلُوا فَسَيَرَى الله عَمَلَكُمْ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ قَالَ هُمُ الائِمَّةُ.

2. A number of our people has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from al-Husayn ibn Sa‘id from al-Nadr ibn Suwayd from Yahya al-Halabi from ‘Abd al-Hamid al-Ta’i from Ya‘qub ibn Shu‘ayb. He has said that he asked abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) about the meaning of the words of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High. "Act as you wish. God will see your deeds and so will do His Messenger and the believers. . . ." (9:106) The Imams (a.s.) said, "They (believers) are the Imams (a.s.)"

3ـ عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنْ عُثْمَانَ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنْ سَمَاعَةَ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ الله (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) قَالَ سَمِعْتُهُ يَقُولُ مَا لَكُمْ تَسُوءُونَ رَسُولَ الله (صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِه) فَقَالَ رَجُلٌ كَيْفَ نَسُوؤُهُ فَقَالَ أَ مَا تَعْلَمُونَ أَنَّ أَعْمَالَكُمْ تُعْرَضُ عَلَيْهِ فَإِذَا رَأَى فِيهَا مَعْصِيَةً سَاءَهُ ذَلِكَ فَلا تَسُوءُوا رَسُولَ الله وَسُرُّوهُ.

2. Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from ‘Uthman ibn 'Isa from Suma‘ who has said that he heard abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) say the following. "What is wrong with you? Why do you disappoint the Messenger of Allah?" A man asked, "How do we disappoint him?" The Imams (a.s.) said, "Do you not know that your deeds are presented before him? When he find sins in them it disappoints him. Do not disappoint the Messenger of Allah. Do things that will make him happy."

4ـ عَلِيٌّ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ الْقَاسِمِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنِ الزَّيَّاتِ عَنْ عَبْدِ الله بْنِ أَبَانٍ الزَّيَّاتِ وَكَانَ مَكِيناً عِنْدَ الرِّضَا (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) قَالَ قُلْتُ لِلرِّضَا (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) ادْعُ الله لِي وَلاهْلِ بَيْتِي فَقَالَ أَ وَلَسْتُ أَفْعَلُ وَالله إِنَّ أَعْمَالَكُمْ لَتُعْرَضُ عَلَيَّ فِي كُلِّ يَوْمٍ وَلَيْلَةٍ قَالَ فَاسْتَعْظَمْتُ ذَلِكَ فَقَالَ لِي أَ مَا تَقْرَأُ كِتَابَ الله عَزَّ وَجَلَّ وَقُلِ اعْمَلُوا فَسَيَرَى الله عَمَلَكُمْ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ قَالَ هُوَ وَالله عَلِيُّ بْنُ أَبِي طَالِبٍ (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام).

4. Ali from has narrated from his father from al-Qasim ibn Muhammad from al-Zayyat from ‘Abdallah ibn Aban al-Zayyat who was well placed in the eyes of al-Rida (a.s.). He has said that he asked al-Rida (a.s.) to pray for him and for his family. Am I not praying for them? I swear by Allah that your deeds are presented before me every day and night." He has said that it seemed extremely great to me. The Imams (a.s.) said to me, "Do you not read in the Holy Quran, ‘Act as you wish. God will see your deeds and so will do His Messenger and the believers. . . .’" (9:106) The Imams (a.s.) then said, "I swear by Allah that he (the believer) is Ali ibn abu Talib (a.s.)."

Edited February 3, 2012 by LoveforTruth

[Vigilare]

Seems like it's about mixing it all up to justify certain beliefs. Nothing new there, sunnis (and each of the sub-sects), Ismailies etc all use the Quran and hadith to justify their beliefs, no matter how nonsensical some of them are.

I still hold by the priniciple that if this form of tawassul is valid then shias should be saying 'Ya Muhammad' since he (pbuh) is the closest to Allah swt.

And based on some of the views above,it seems as though we should follow what we think/believe to be right, rather than anything else.

[Ali_Hussain]

And based on some of the views above,it seems as though we should follow what we think/believe to be right, rather than anything else.

but also:

We know our Prophet (s) doesn't hear our salaams, they are conveyed to him (s)

We know our Prophet (s) doesn't see our deeds, they are presented before him (s)

But we are supposed to believe that he (s) hears our supplications?

At the very least there should be some logic being followed. Are our supplication passed onto him as our salaams are, or are they presented before him as our deeds are? Is there some kind of filter of hotline that only du'a are heard directly?

[Alejandro Sosa]

good post^

[Saintly_Jinn23]

I still hold by the priniciple that if this form of tawassul is valid then shias should be saying 'Ya Muhammad' since he (pbuh) is the closest to Allah swt.

We do, it is just that Ali is the gate to Muhammad, we cannot expect to come to Muhammad except through Ali (as) so naturally he is mentioned more often. Also, for Shia, "Ya Ali" serves as a more cultural identification tag between them and other faiths since we are the "Shia of Ali," and it is that which makes us different from others. Ali's name is called upon more because he is lower, not because he is higher, than Muhammad (pbuh).

Edited February 7, 2012 by Saintly_Jinn23

[kadhim]

We do, it is just that Ali is the gate to Muhammad, we cannot expect to come to Muhammad except through Ali (as) so naturally he is mentioned more often. Also, for Shia, "Ya Ali" serves as a more cultural identification tag between them and other faiths since we are the "Shia of Ali," and it is that which makes us different from others. Ali's name is called upon more because he is lower, not because he is higher, than Muhammad (pbuh).

I'm starting to see what Salafis are talking abou when they accuse us of following a new religion. If they see/hear statements like these, it's hard to blame them for that mistaken perception.

[Kismet110]

^^^

What 'salafis' think I don't care about one iota but what you wrote is (unintentionally) ironic; they follow the new cult of Wahabbism yet think we follow a new religion because we mention and praise the first Imam of Momineen?!?

ALI