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Al-MuHammadee

Yaa Alee Madad": Is This Not Shirk?!

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The article on that website concerning the phrase does not help matters at all. It is FULL of bad Qiyaas! The author only shows that Allaah does things through His angels and saints. I wonder exactly how that justifies calling these messengers alongside their Master?

Why don't the people call upon the angel of rain whenever they need rain? Why do they call upon Allaah? Is it not Shirk to say, for instance, "Oh Mikaail, please give us rain"?! Why is this istighaathah restricted then to only the Ahl al-Bayt (as) and specifically to Imaam 'Alee (as)?

These are questions relevant to that guy's Qiyaas which he has failed to address!

Moreover, the Qur'aan has allowed the physical istighaathah (as that author himself proves through the stories of the prophets (as)). Apparently, Allaah does not count it as a du'a in the sense intended in the above verses. One wonders why that author brought that irrelevant argument in the first place? Istighaathah from Imaam 'Alee (as) at this time is NOT physical istighaathah. It therefore counts as Shirk under the above verses!

Our Noble Prophet (pbuh) NEVER called upon ANYONE with Allaah. Are we not supposed to be upon his Sunnah?

Edited by Al-MuHammadee

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So apparently you want us to know is that when you're really hungry, you call Allah to send (oh yes, Allah "sends" THROUGH angels) heavenly food for you and that your momma or wifey have no "power" to fulfill your basic needs, hmmm??

This is an instance of physical istighaathah which the Qur'aan allows. Allaah does not classify it under the du'a He prohibits. Can't you see this simple distinction?

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Most Shias except for you are mushrik. Thanks for making that clear. Well done.

You cannot exactly pick that from my words. Most Shee'ahs call Imaam 'Alee (as) with Allaah. The Qur'aan and the Sunnah have prohibited that, and classified it as Shirk. I only RELAYED the message of our Lord. I have not passed any personal judgments on anyone.

ok fine,i am giving an example.. so try to get this..

whenever you got hungry whom you would call to give you meal.. ofcourse your mom.. so if you can call your mother and take help from her then why not from IMAM ALI (A.S)???

or according to these verses, when you got hungry why don't call Allah to give you meal..??

sorry i forgot to say (wasalam)

Again, this is an example of physical Istighaathah which the Qur'aan allows and does not classify as Shirk. By contrast, Imaam 'Alee (as) is already in heavens and cannot hear you unless you stand at his grave http://www.revivinga...nd-ahl-al.html.

Also, even if he can hear you, he is no longer of this world, ALTHOUGH ALIVE WITH ALLAAH, receiving sustenance from Him, and can no longer provide physical istighaathah.

Edited by Al-MuHammadee

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You cannot exactly pick that from my words. Most Shee'ahs call Imaam 'Alee (as) with Allaah. The Qur'aan and the Sunnah have prohibited that, and classified it as Shirk. I only RELAYED the message of our Lord

Blame your own ignorance than calling others "deviant" in their faith..And I am surprised that the Prophet of Allah chose not his (the Prophet's) successors, the Imams, but a poor chap from the online world to RELAY His word? Hahaha!!!

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So apparently you want us to know is that when you're really hungry, you call Allah to send (oh yes, Allah "sends" THROUGH angels) heavenly food for you and that your momma or wifey have no "power" to fulfill your basic needs, hmmm??

This is completely different. Your mother or your wife are right in front of you, can hear you when you ask them, and are obviously capable of making your food. The issues with saying Ya Ali Madad are the following:

!) There is no proof that Imam Ali (as) can year your dua. http://www.shiachat....re-all-hearing/

2) There is no proof Imam Ali (as) can actually help you.

3) There is no proof that it is allowed to call upon him in this fashion, and in fact as shown in this thread, there are good reasons for thinking it is not allowed.

4) The Imams (as) never did this, and never taught anyone to do it. They only called upon Allah سبحانه وتعالى.

I just can't understand why anyone would wish to call upon other than Allah سبحانه وتعالى, when there is a very real risk that this is shirk. People seem to actually have an emotional desire to do it. This justificiation of needing to go through the Imams (as) because we aren't worthy enough to call upon Allah, or whatever, is just an excuse.

And when My servants ask you concerning Me, then surely I am very near; I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he calls on Me, so they should answer My call and believe in Me that they may walk in the right way. [Qur'an 2:186, Shakir translation]

And do not call besides Allah on that which can neither benefit you nor harm you, for if you do then surely you will in that case be of the unjust. And if Allah should afflict you with harm, then there is none to remove it but He; and if He intends good to you there is none to repel His grace; He brings it to whom He pleases of His servants; and He is the Forgiving, the Merciful. [Qur'an 10:106-107]

Say: Who is the Lord of the heavens and the earth? Say: Allah. Say: Do you take then besides Him guardians who do not control any profit or harm for themselves? Say: Are the blind and the seeing alike? Or can the darkness and the light be equal? Or have they set up with Allah associates who have created creation like His, so that what is created became confused to them? Say: Allah is the Creator of all things, and He is the One, the Supreme. [Qur'an 13:16, Shakir]

Allah is He Who created you, then gave you sustenance, then He causes you to die, then brings you to life. Is there any of your associate-gods who does aught of it? Glory be to Him, and exalted be He above what they associate (with Him). [Qur'an 30:40, Shakir]

He causes the night to enter in upon the day, and He causes the day to enter in upon the night, and He has made subservient (to you) the sun and the moon; each one follows its course to an appointed time; this is Allah, your Lord, His is the kingdom; and those whom you call upon besides Him do not control a straw.

If you call on them they shall not hear your call, and even if they could hear they shall not answer you; and on the resurrection day they will deny your associating them (with Allah); and none can inform you like the One Who is Aware. [Qur'an 35:13-14, Shakir]

Allah, there is no god but He; and upon Allah, then, let the believers rely. [Qur'an 64:13, Shakir]

And that the mosques are Allah's, therefore call not upon any one with Allah [Qur'an 72:18, Shakir]

And when it is said to them, Follow what Allah has revealed, they say: Nay! we follow what we found our fathers upon. What! and though their fathers had no sense at all, nor did they follow the right way. [Qur'an 2:170, Shakir]

And when it is said to them, Come to what Allah has revealed and to the Messenger, they say: That on which we found our fathers is sufficient for us. What! even though their fathers knew nothing and did not follow the right way. [Qur'an 5:104, Shakir]

Nay! they say: We found our fathers on a course, and surely we are guided by their footsteps. [Qur'an 43:22, Shakir]

Edited by Haydar Husayn

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I get so upset when I see that many shia say that one should not pray directly to Allah when you make supplication, but first ask one of our Imams, because chances are greater of being heard. This statement destroys the whole message of Islam.

Brother Haydar_Husayn and many others have posted many verset from the holy quran verse that says we must pray DIRECTLY to God. Brtohr has also made ​​a great thread that dealt with this. In fact, they who do believe that we must or should pray through the Imams, has the burden of proof here. So far I have not seen a single hadih to explicitly say that we can pray through our prophet or imams . Since it is widespread practice it's very strange that we dont have hadiths dealing with this..

Edited by Nima

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Imaam 'Alee (as) is already in heavens and cannot hear you unless you stand at his grave http://www.revivinga...nd-ahl-al.html.

oh lol...He can not hear us??? if it s so then : if we stand at his grave , He will be able to hear? is there any microphone near the grave??

anyways: we are all dead .. only truly alive beings are Imam Ali (as) and all other martyrs and the reason that we have been created is them.

there is nothing alive without Imam Ali(as)'s noor.

Dont waste your energy and time with such nonesence arguments ...yawning!

Edited by Golden-crowned

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These ayahs talk about those who believe in other gods other than Allah or call to false prophets who won't help them. Here are some evidence which prove our point

[Shakir 4:64] And We did not send any messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had (also) asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful.

This verse doesn't talk about the Prophet's life so it includes after his death as well

[Shakir 5:35] O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah and seek means of nearness to Him and strive hard in His way that you may be successful.

The means of Allah are Ahlulbayt a.s

[Shakir 17:57] Those whom they call upon, themselves seek the means of access to their Lord-- whoever of them is nearest-- and they hope for His mercy and fear His chastisement; surely the chastisement of your Lord is a thing to be cautious of.

This ayah proves that using the means of Allah swt to access Allah swt is more successful and the means are Ahlulbayt a.s

And finally an answer from sheikh Yasser al-Habib

According to the point made in the question, then one should not really seek doctors and medical professionals for treatment of his illnesses since Allah the Most Exalted is the one who cures illnesses and restores people to full health! “And when I am sick, then He restores me to health” (Quran 26:80). Respectively, if one is drowning in water, he should not call out for help since seeking aid from and calling upon other than Allah is Shirk!

If you, arguably, say that Allah the Most Exalted is the actual healer; He is the one who cures all illnesses and ailments but doctors and medical professionals are no more than intermediaries for cures. Additionally, calling out for help is no more than a means of rescue. Otherwise, the one drowning in water will be only rescued with the will of Allah and no one else.

Then, we say that the same is the case for the pure household of the Prophet (peace be upon them). We also say that we turn towards the pure household (peace be upon them) because they are the means through which our Duas can be answered. Otherwise, Allah the Most Exalted is the one who answers prayers and fulfils all needs.

In fact we are ordered by Allah the Most Exalted to seek the pure household (peace be upon them) as means of approach and ask them to intercede with Allah on our behalf, for Allah the Most Exalted has said: “O ye who believe, be careful of (your duty to) Allah and reach unto Him for a means and strive in His path that ye might thrive” (Quran 05:35).

The Prophet (peace be upon him and his pure family) also said: “We are the means to Allah” (al-Bihar, vol. 25, p. 23). Additionally, in the Quran we find: “And We sent no Messenger save that he be obeyed by Allah’s permission, And if when they wronged themselves they had come to thee and sought Allah’s forgiveness and the Messenger had sought Allah’s forgiveness for them they would have found Allah relenting, merciful” (Quran 04:64).

On the other hand, there are even proofs found in the Bakri books that support the permissibility of Tawassul. One of which is what Ibn Kathir – who is one of the Bakri scholars - narrates regarding the above verse (Quran 04:64):

“Sheikh Abu Mansour al-Sabbagh reported in his book (al-Shamil) the well-known story of Al-`Utbi who said: ‘as I was sitting by the grave of the Prophet, a Bedouin Arab came and said: "Peace be upon you, O Messenger of Allah! I have heard Allah saying: And if when they wronged themselves they had come to thee and sought Allah’s forgiveness and the Messenger had sought Allah’s forgiveness for them they would have found Allah relenting, merciful" (Quran 04:64).

“So I have come to you asking forgiveness for my sin, seeking your intercession with my Lord." Then he began to recite poetry:

O best of those, whose bones are buried in the deep earth,

And from whose fragrance the depth,

And the height have become sweet,

May I be the ransom for a grave which thou inhabit,

And in which are found purity bounty and munificence,

“Then he left, and I slept and saw the Prophet (peace be upon him and his pure family) in my sleep. He said to me: “O `Utbi, run after the Bedouin and give him glad tidings that Allah has forgiven him.” (Tafsir of Ibn Kathir, vol.1, p.532).

Notice here that although the Prophet (peace be upon him and his pure family) was apparently dead, he did intercede on behalf of the Bedouin and asked Allah the Most Exalted to forgive all of his sins.

Moreover, Ibn Hanbal – who is the Imam of the Hanbali sect – narrates: “a blind person came to the Prophet (peace be upon him and his pure family) and said: 'Pray to Allah that He bestows me with sight'. The Prophet (peace be upon him and his pure family) replied: ‘If you desire, I’ll not pray, as being blind may be better for your afterlife, or I’ll pray’

“The man then chose to be relieved of blindness and the Messenger told him: 'Perform ablution (i.e. Wudu), pray tworak'at and then supplicate to Allah in this way: 'O God! Surely my appeal is to You and I turn towards You through the Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of mercy: O Muhammad, surely I turn towards God through you, that He uncover my sight. O God, make him my intercessor.’ The man did what the Messenger told him and his sight was restored” (Musnad Ahmed, vol. 4, p. 138).

Notice here that the Prophet (peace be upon him and his pure family) ordered the blind man to turn towards Allah the Most Exalted through him, for he ordered him to say: “O Muhammad”. Additionally, although the Prophet (peace be upon him and his pure family) was not with him at the time he recited the Dua, Allah the Most Exalted did cure him and restored his eyesight.

Furthermore, there is no difference in asking the Prophet (peace be upon him and his pure family) to intercede on our behalf during his lifetime or after his martyrdom, for he is alive and is provided sustenance. “And reckon not those who are killed in Allah's way as dead; nay, they are alive (and) are provided sustenance from their Lord” (Quran 03:169), as proved in the Al-`Utbi’s narration.

Needless to say, making Tawassul through the pure household (peace be upon them) is also permissible, for Imam Ali (peace be upon him) is nothing but an extension of the Prophet personality as stated in the holy Quran:

So whoever disputes thee about him after the knowledge that has come to you say Come, we shall call our sons and your sons, our women and your women, our selves and your selves thereupon we shall supplicate and place the curse of Allah upon the liars” (Quran 03:61).

The same is the case for Imam Hussain (peace be upon him), as the Prophet (peace be upon him and his pure family) said: “Hussain from me and I am from Hussein” There are in fact numerous narrations that state the same about each and every member of the pure household (peace be upon them).

25th Shawwal 1431

The Office of Sheikh al-Habib in London

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Salamu 'alaykum

The first one to ask Imam 'Ali (as) to help him this way was in fact the Messenger of Allah (peace and benedictions on him and his pure family) :

قال : حدثنا أحمد بن عبد الجبار ، قال : حدثنا بشر بن بكر ، عن محمد بن إسحاق ، عن مشيخته

قال لما رجع علي بن أبي طالب من احد ناول فاطمة سيفه ،

وقال أفاطم هاك السيف غيــر ذميـم * فلست بــرعديـد ولا بلئيــم

لعمري لقد أعذرت في نصر أحمد * ومرضــاة رب للعبــاد رحيــم

قال : وسمع في يوم احد وقد هاجت ريح عاصف كلام هاتف يهتف وهو يقول

لا سيـــف إلا ذو الفقــار * ولا فـــتـــى إلا عـلــي

وإذا نــدبتـــم هالـكــا * فــابكوا الوفي أخـــا الوفي

Mohammad bin Is'haaq narrates from his scholars, who said:

When Ali ibn Abi Taleb returned from Ohud, he gave his sword to Fatema (sa) and read this poem:

"O Fatema (sa)! Take my sword, the sword that is not disgraced. I am not frightened nor am I a villain. I swear that I worked hard to support Ahmad (saww) and to please the Merciful lord of the slaves."

On the day of Ohud when it was very windy, people heard a voice that recited this poem:

"There is no sword except Zulfiqar, and there is no man except Ali.

When you need help, cry out the name of the loyal one, and the (name of the) brother of the loyal one."

[source: Amali - Sheikh Toosi 1:142 / Basharatul Mustafa Le Shiyat e Murtuza Ch.11 Hadees.13]

http://www.yasoob.com/books/htm1/m013/11/no1186.html

Edited by LoveforTruth

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(salam)

Has it ever occured to those who say Yaa 'Alee madad that what they say is pure Shirk?

Yaa 'Alee madad means "O 'Alee! Help!" Does this not directly contradict these verses?

وَأَنَّ الْمَسَاجِدَ لِلَّهِ فَلَا تَدْعُوا مَعَ اللَّهِ أَحَدًا {18}

وَأَنَّهُ لَمَّا قَامَ عَبْدُ اللَّهِ يَدْعُوهُ كَادُوا يَكُونُونَ عَلَيْهِ لِبَدًا {19}

قُلْ إِنَّمَا أَدْعُو رَبِّي وَلَا أُشْرِكُ بِهِ أَحَدًا {20}

قُلْ إِنِّي لَا أَمْلِكُ لَكُمْ ضَرًّا وَلَا رَشَدًا {21}

قُلْ إِنِّي لَنْ يُجِيرَنِي مِنَ اللَّهِ أَحَدٌ وَلَنْ أَجِدَ مِنْ دُونِهِ مُلْتَحَدًا {22}

إِلَّا بَلَاغًا مِنَ اللَّهِ وَرِسَالَاتِهِ ۚ وَمَنْ يَعْصِ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ فَإِنَّ لَهُ نَارَ جَهَنَّمَ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا أَبَدًا {23}

[Shakir 72:18] And that the mosques are Allah's, therefore call not upon any one with Allah:

[Shakir 72:19] And that when the servant of Allah stood up calling upon Him, they wellnigh crowded him (to death).

[Shakir 72:20] Say: I only call upon my Lord, and I do not associate any one with Him.

[shakir 72:21] Say: I do not control for you evil or good.

[Shakir 72:22] Say: Surely no one can protect me against Allah, nor can I find besides Him any place of refuge:

[Shakir 72:23] (It is) only a delivering (of communications) from Allah and His messages; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger surely he shall have the fire of hell to abide therein for a long time.

I would like to know the "defences" of those who call upon Imaam 'Alee (as) with Allaah. Thanks.

So tell me what happens if your car breaks down??? Are you not supose to call the road rescue services and ask them for help??? Or if you ask somebody, passing by, for a push start is that shirk too because your asking for help other than Allah. The material you have put forward is ture but do you understand what it means??? Other than Allah means no other God apart from Allah or no other source that is not linked to Allah. take a look at this Ayath, [Ya-Ayohallazeena-Amanoo-In-Tasorullaha-Yansurkum-Wa-Yosabith-Akdamakum] meaning Oh those people who have become believers, if you help Allah he will help you, and keep your feet firm. May be you would like to clarify this??? Here Allah is asking help from the people!

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These ayahs talk about those who believe in other gods other than Allah or call to false prophets who won't help them. Here are some evidence which prove our point

Doesn't it just seem very ba`eed to think that the Quran's message, over and over, with it's condemning of any associating with him, emphasizing on calling upon Him alone, as well as emphasizing on the humanity of the Messenger صلى الله عليه وآله, really wasn't meant to condemn what the pagans were doing in calling others with Allah but just saying they were calling the wrong ones? Can anyone read the Quran and honestly say that's the message they are really getting from it?

[shakir 4:64] And We did not send any messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had (also) asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful.

This verse doesn't talk about the Prophet's life so it includes after his death as well

No one is denying shafa`at given to the Messenger صلى الله عليه وآله, question is about praying to him directly. Though even, seriously, how many Shi`a even would do that, calling upon the Messenger Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå, as opposed to calling on Amir al-Mu'mineen (as).

[shakir 5:35] O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah and seek means of nearness to Him and strive hard in His way that you may be successful.

The means of Allah are Ahlulbayt a.s

This is correct, but what does it mean? Does it mean we should therefore be praying to them? Or rather does it mean that they are the means to Allah via obedience to them:

blank.gif وفي العيون عن النبي صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم الأئمة من ولد الحسين ( عليهم السلام ) من أطاعهم فقد أطاع الله ومن عصاهم فقد عصى الله هم العروة الوثقى والوسيلة إلى الله .

In al-`Uyun from the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم: The Imams are from the children of al-Husayn عليهم السلام, whoever obeys them has obeyed Allah and whoever disobeys them has disobeyed Allah. They are the firmest handle and the means to Allah.

[shakir 17:57] Those whom they call upon, themselves seek the means of access to their Lord-- whoever of them is nearest-- and they hope for His mercy and fear His chastisement; surely the chastisement of your Lord is a thing to be cautious of.

This ayah proves that using the means of Allah swt to access Allah swt is more successful and the means are Ahlulbayt a.s

Though I don't see the tafsir you are making of this verse, there is no doubt the way to Allah is in the walayat of the Ahl al-Bayt (as), but again how does that prove we should be praying to them? Were it so, shouldn't we have pretty clear hadiths from them instructing us to do that?

And finally an answer from sheikh Yasser al-Habib

Notice how much rationalizations and citations of Sunni narrations (that hold zero weight with us in terms of proof) he needs to depend on. Is it really so much to ask that there be Shi`i hadiths that are clearly stating (not being read it through some lens, but clearly stating so) that we should pray to the Ma`sumeen (as)?

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http://www.duas.org/tawassul.htm

Narrated from Abu Abdillah Imam Jafar Sadiq (as):

عن أبي عبدالله عليه السلام قال : إذا أردت زيارة الحسين عليه السلام فزره وأنتَ كَئيبٌ حَزين مَكروبٌ ، شُعثاً مغبراً جائعاً عَطْشاناً ، فإنَّ الحسين قُتِلَ حَزيناً مَكروباً شُعثاً مُغْبراً جائعاً عَطْشاناً ، وسَلْه الحوائج وانصرف عنه ، ولا تتّخِذْه وَطَناً

Abu Abdillah [imam Sadiq (as)] said:

“When you want to go to the Ziyarah of Husain (as), go to his Ziyarah while you are saddened, anguished, grief-stricken, disheveled, covered with dust, hungry and thirsty for verily Husain (as) was killed while he was saddened, anguished, disheveled, covered with dust, hungry and thirsty.

(After you perform your Ziyarah), ask him for your needs and then leave. Do not settle in Karbala.

[source: Al-Kafi Vol.4 Pg.587]

http://www.al-shia.o...afi-4/22.htm#10

Al-Kafi : H 3350, CH 53, h 6

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from

Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn abu Dawud from abu Hamza from abu Ja’far,

recipient of divine supreme covenant, who has said the following:

“Once a man came to the Holy Prophet and said, ‘O

Messenger of Allah, I am a person with a family, indebted and

my condition has turned into difficulty. Instruct me with a

supplication with which I can pray to Allah, the Most Majestic,

the Most Holy, so He will grant me sustenance to pay my debts

and help my family.’

The Messenger of Allah said, ‘O servant of Allah, complete a Wuzu properly, then make a two Rak’at prayer performing complete Ruku’ and prostration then say, “O the Exalted one, O the only One, O Munificent (eternal), I have turned to You through Muhammad your Prophet, the Prophet of blessings.

O Muhammad, O Messenger of Allah, I ask through you from Allah, your Lord and my Lord and the Lord of all things, to grant al-Salat (favors) upon Muhammad and his family, and beg You for a noble relief from Your relief, an easy felicity, a vast sustenance, to place together my chaotic conditions, pay my debts and help my family.’”

Edited by LoveforTruth

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Doesn't it just seem very ba`eed to think that the Quran's message, over and over, with it's condemning of any associating with him, emphasizing on calling upon Him alone, as well as emphasizing on the humanity of the Messenger صلى الله عليه وآله, really wasn't meant to condemn what the pagans were doing in calling others with Allah but just saying they were calling the wrong ones? Can anyone read the Quran and honestly say that's the message they are really getting from it?

No one is denying shafa`at given to the Messenger صلى الله عليه وآله, question is about praying to him directly. Though even, seriously, how many Shi`a even would do that, calling upon the Messenger صلى الله عليه وآله, as opposed to calling on Amir al-Mu'mineen (as).

This is correct, but what does it mean? Does it mean we should therefore be praying to them? Or rather does it mean that they are the means to Allah via obedience to them:

blank.gif وفي العيون عن النبي صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم الأئمة من ولد الحسين ( عليهم السلام ) من أطاعهم فقد أطاع الله ومن عصاهم فقد عصى الله هم العروة الوثقى والوسيلة إلى الله .

In al-`Uyun from the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم: The Imams are from the children of al-Husayn عليهم السلام, whoever obeys them has obeyed Allah and whoever disobeys them has disobeyed Allah. They are the firmest handle and the means to Allah.

Though I don't see the tafsir you are making of this verse, there is no doubt the way to Allah is in the walayat of the Ahl al-Bayt (as), but again how does that prove we should be praying to them? Were it so, shouldn't we have pretty clear hadiths from them instructing us to do that?

Notice how much rationalizations and citations of Sunni narrations (that hold zero weight with us in terms of proof) he needs to depend on. Is it really so much to ask that there be Shi`i hadiths that are clearly stating (not being read it through some lens, but clearly stating so) that we should pray to the Ma`sumeen (as)?

I want to give you a long answer but since I am tired just read this verse

[Shakir 17:57] Those whom they call upon, themselves seek the means of access to their Lord-- whoever of them is nearest-- and they hope for His mercy and fear His chastisement; surely the chastisement of your Lord is a thing to be cautious of.

This is about calling Allah. Imams have a higher position with God than we do so thats why we invoke them

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(salam)

Has it ever occured to those who say Yaa 'Alee madad that what they say is pure Shirk?

Yaa 'Alee madad means "O 'Alee! Help!" Does this not directly contradict these verses?

وَأَنَّ الْمَسَاجِدَ لِلَّهِ فَلَا تَدْعُوا مَعَ اللَّهِ أَحَدًا {18}

وَأَنَّهُ لَمَّا قَامَ عَبْدُ اللَّهِ يَدْعُوهُ كَادُوا يَكُونُونَ عَلَيْهِ لِبَدًا {19}

قُلْ إِنَّمَا أَدْعُو رَبِّي وَلَا أُشْرِكُ بِهِ أَحَدًا {20}

قُلْ إِنِّي لَا أَمْلِكُ لَكُمْ ضَرًّا وَلَا رَشَدًا {21}

قُلْ إِنِّي لَنْ يُجِيرَنِي مِنَ اللَّهِ أَحَدٌ وَلَنْ أَجِدَ مِنْ دُونِهِ مُلْتَحَدًا {22}

إِلَّا بَلَاغًا مِنَ اللَّهِ وَرِسَالَاتِهِ ۚ وَمَنْ يَعْصِ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ فَإِنَّ لَهُ نَارَ جَهَنَّمَ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا أَبَدًا {23}

[Shakir 72:18] And that the mosques are Allah's, therefore call not upon any one with Allah:

[Shakir 72:19] And that when the servant of Allah stood up calling upon Him, they wellnigh crowded him (to death).

[Shakir 72:20] Say: I only call upon my Lord, and I do not associate any one with Him.

[shakir 72:21] Say: I do not control for you evil or good.

[Shakir 72:22] Say: Surely no one can protect me against Allah, nor can I find besides Him any place of refuge:

[Shakir 72:23] (It is) only a delivering (of communications) from Allah and His messages; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger surely he shall have the fire of hell to abide therein for a long time.

I would like to know the "defences" of those who call upon Imaam 'Alee (as) with Allaah. Thanks.

Allow me to be a child and just say, Your face is shirk. :shifty:

Truly yours,

Your Lord, Your Conquerer.

El Cid.

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Salam

This prayer or slogan is very much related with The Naad-e-Ali (a.s). which starts with these words "call Ali (a.s) ........."

it is a very complex issue. however the question of concern is what is the position of aalims/ mujetahids over the Nade-e-Ali if anyone has detailed knowledge please provide.

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Can I first ask, are 'ya Ali' 'ya Ali madad' 'ya Husayn' etc slogans or are people really calling out to them thinking they can hear them? I would imagine these are merely slogans. I am sure than if things were to get really bad, like being on a plane that is about to crash, no one would say 'ya Ali madad' because it is in mans nature to ask Allah (swt) for help, even atheists resort to Allah in matters of life and death.

(i say this because I've seen videos of people shouting 'haydar,haydar' whilst hitting their heads with swords, and there is no point calling on Ali (a) to watch you, so I just take it that it must be a slogan)

Secondly, there is a hadith in al-Mufeeds al-amali that deals with this kind of topic.

He said: Abu Ja'far Muhammad b. Ali b. al-Husain reported from his father, who reported from Muhammad b. Yahya al-Attar, who reported from Muhammad b. Ahmad b. Yahya, from al-Hasan b. Ali al-Kufi, from al-Abbas b. Amir al-Qasbani, from Ahmad b. Rizq al-Ghamshani, from Yahya b. Abul Ala', from Jabir, from Abu Ja'far Muhammad b. Ali b. al-Husain, from his father, from his grandfather, peace be upon them all, who said:

The Prophet, peace be upon him and his progeny, said: "On the Day of Judgement, when the People of Paradise will have settled in their blissful gardens and the people of hell will be in the fire, there will be one who spent seventy autumns in the fire, each autumn is equal to seventy years; then he will beseech Allah, Most High, imploring: "O my Sustainer, I ask you in the name of Muhammad and the inmates of his house to have mercy on me."

Then Allah, Most Mighty, will command Jibraeel, peace be upon him: "Descend to my servant and release him." Jibraeel would say: "How can I descend into hellfire?" Allah, Most Benevolent, would say: "We have commanded the fire to be cold and safe for you."

He (Jibraeel) would say: "O my Sustainer! How do I know where he is located?" Allah would say: "He is in the pit of Sijjin." Then Jibraeel would descend into the fire, find him shackled onto his face, so he will get him out.

There he (the servant) stands in the presence of Allah, Most High; then Allah addresses him: "O My servant, for how long have you been in fire, entreating Me thus?" He would say: "I have no count." Allah, Most High, would say: "By My Honour, had you not beseeched in the name of those, who have a status in My estimation, you would have stayed there in a prolonged humiliation. But, I have ordained for Myself that no one asks me in the name of Muhammad and the inmates of his household, except that I forgive him all that is between Me and him. So, I have pardoned you today." Then Allah will command for him to be taken to the Paradise.

al-mufeed, al-amali, assembly 25, hadith 6

http://www.al-islam.org/amali/27.htm

When we have narrations like this one, is it not safer to ask Allah "in the name of Muhammad and his family", at least there exists this type of narration, authentic or not, what kind of hadith do we have about calling on others than Allah?

I thought we are supposed to measure a hadith against the Qur'an.

Edited by Ali_Hussain

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Can I first ask, are 'ya Ali' 'ya Ali madad' 'ya Husayn' etc slogans or are people really calling out to them thinking they can hear them? I would imagine these are merely slogans. I am sure than if things were to get really bad, like being on a plane that is about to crash, no one would say 'ya Ali madad' because it is in mans nature to ask Allah (swt) for help, even atheists resort to Allah in matters of life and death.

please see the following video it is the video of blast in pakistan (city khanpur) at this arbaeen 15-01-2012 which causes the more then 20 deaths and more then 100 injured see the what peoples are asking you will be sttunned

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I am sure than if things were to get really bad, like being on a plane that is about to crash, no one would say 'ya Ali madad' because it is in mans nature to ask Allah (swt) for help, even atheists resort to Allah in matters of life and death.

No, I'm pretty sure they would still be saying Ya Ali Madad. Like I said, emotionally speaking, this is what they are more drawn to, not calling on Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì. Maybe it's because they find it easier to relate to a human being, like how Christians make Jesus the focus of most of their worship rather than the Father or Holy Spirit. It's simply easier to relate to a human being, who's life you can read about in books.

macisaac brings up a good point though. Why is the focus of attention on Imam Ali (as) rather than the Prophet (pbuh)? The status of the Prophet (pbuh) is higher, so why not go through him? This is another indication that the whole practice is emotionally driven, and has very little logic behind it.

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Can I first ask, are 'ya Ali' 'ya Ali madad' 'ya Husayn' etc slogans or are people really calling out to them thinking they can hear them? I would imagine these are merely slogans. I am sure than if things were to get really bad, like being on a plane that is about to crash, no one would say 'ya Ali madad' because it is in mans nature to ask Allah (swt) for help, even atheists resort to Allah in matters of life and death.

(i say this because I've seen videos of people shouting 'haydar,haydar' whilst hitting their heads with swords, and there is no point calling on Ali (a) to watch you, so I just take it that it must be a slogan)

Secondly, there is a hadith in al-Mufeeds al-amali that deals with this kind of topic.

Ahlul Bayt used Ya Muhammad as a slogan, this is proven already.

Edited by S.hassan

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Our Noble Prophet (pbuh) NEVER called upon ANYONE with Allaah. Are we not supposed to be upon his Sunnah?

I have actually heard in a lecture on AhlulBayt TV (which I cannot find on the moment) that on the battlefield (and to the best of my knowledge outside of it), Rasool Allah (SAWS) would constantly shout out/proclaim 'Ya Ali, Ya Ali!' so yes, I believe those who say this are following the sunnah in this case.

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مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنِ الْحُسَيْنِ بْنِ سَعِيدٍ عَنِ الْقَاسِمِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ الْجَوْهَرِيِّ عَنْ عَلِيِّ بْنِ أَبِي حَمْزَةَ عَنْ أَبِي إِبْرَاهِيمَ ( عليه السلام ) قَالَ قَالَ لِي إِنِّي لَمَوْعُوكٌ مُنْذُ سَبْعَةِ أَشْهُرٍ وَ لَقَدْ وُعِكَ ابْنِي اثْنَيْ عَشَرَ شَهْراً وَ هِيَ تَضَاعَفُ عَلَيْنَا أَ شَعَرْتَ أَنَّهَا لَا تَأْخُذُ فِي الْجَسَدِ كُلِّهِ وَ رُبَّمَا أَخَذَتْ فِي أَعْلَى الْجَسَدِ وَ لَمْ تَأْخُذْ فِي أَسْفَلِهِ وَ رُبَّمَا أَخَذَتْ فِي أَسْفَلِهِ وَ لَمْ تَأْخُذْ فِي أَعْلَى الْجَسَدِ كُلِّهِ قُلْتُ جُعِلْتُ فِدَاكَ إِنْ أَذِنْتَ لِي حَدَّثْتُكَ بِحَدِيثٍ عَنْ أَبِي بَصِيرٍ عَنْ جَدِّكَ أَنَّهُ كَانَ إِذَا وُعِكَ اسْتَعَانَ بِالْمَاءِ الْبَارِدِ فَيَكُونُ لَهُ ثَوْبَانِ ثَوْبٌ فِي الْمَاءِ الْبَارِدِ وَ ثَوْبٌ عَلَى جَسَدِهِ يُرَاوِحُ بَيْنَهُمَا ثُمَّ يُنَادِي حَتَّى يُسْمَعَ صَوْتُهُ عَلَى بَابِ الدَّارِ يَا فَاطِمَةُ بِنْتَ مُحَمَّدٍ فَقَالَ صَدَقْتَ قُلْتُ جُعِلْتُ فِدَاكَ فَمَا وَجَدْتُمْ لِلْحُمَّى عِنْدَكُمْ دَوَاءً فَقَالَ مَا وَجَدْنَا لَهَا عِنْدَنَا دَوَاءً إِلَّا الدُّعَاءَ وَ الْمَاءَ الْبَارِدَ إِنِّي اشْتَكَيْتُ فَأَرْسَلَ إِلَيَّ مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ بِطَبِيبٍ لَهُ فَجَاءَنِي بِدَوَاءٍ فِيهِ قَيْ‏ءٌ فَأَبَيْتُ أَنْ أَشْرَبَهُ لِأَنِّي إِذَا قَيَيْتُ زَالَ كُلُّ مَفْصِلٍ مِنِّي .

Abu Ibrahim (as) once said to me : "I am having fever for seven months and my son had fever for twelve months and it increases on us. Have you realized that it does not cover the body ? Sometimes it is in the upper part of the body and sometimes it is in the lower part of the body."

I then said : "I pray to Allah to keep my soul in service for your cause, if you grant me permission I can narrate the Hadith of abu Basir from your grandfather about his having fever that he would use cold water to bring it lower.

He would use two clothes, one in cold water and one on him, exchange them, and say loudly : "O Fatimah, daughter of Muhammad !" He (the Imam) would say it so loud that people at the door could hear him."

He (the Imam) said : "You have spoken the truth."

I then said : "I pray to Allah to keep my soul in your service for your cause, have you still not found a medicine for fever ?"

He (the Imam) said : "We have not found any medicine for it except prayer and cold water. I had fever and Muhammad ibn Ibrahim sent a physician for me. He brought a medicine that caused vomiting, and I did not like it because if I vomit, it hurts my joints." (Al-Kafi, vol. 8)

And :

A-Tusi in Al Amali : Imam Sadiq (as) with Yunus :

قال يونس بن ظبيان: كنت عند أبي عبد الله عليه السلام فقال: ما يقول الناس في أرواح المؤمنين بعد موتهم؟ قلت: يقولون: في حواصل طيور خضر. فقال: سبحان الله! المؤمن أكرم على الله من ذلك. إذا كان ذلك أتاه رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم وعلي وفاطمة والحسن والحسين عليهم السلام ومعهم ملائكة من ملائكة الله عز وجل المقربين. فإن أنطق الله لسانه بالشهادة له بالتوحيد وللنبي صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم بالنبوة والولاية لأهل البيت عليهم السلام، شهد على ذلك رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم وعلي وفاطمة والحسن والحسين عليهم السلام والملائكة المقربون معهم. وإن اعتقل لسانه فإن نبيه صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم يعلم ما في قلبه من ذلك فشهد به، وشهد على شهادة النبي صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم علي وفاطمة والحسن والحسين عليهم السلام ومن حضر معهم من الملائكة. فإذا قبض الله روحه إليه صير تلك الروح إلى الجنة في صورة كصورته في الدنيا فيأكلون ويشربون فإذا قدم عليهم القادم عرفهم بتلك الصورة التي كانت في الدنيا (الأمالي للطوسي)

A Tabârâni in Al Mu'jam Al Kabir :

كان رجل يختلف إلى عثمان بن عفان في حاجة له. فكان عثمان لا يلتفت إليه، ولا ينظر في حاجته. فلقي ابن حنيف، فشكى ذلك إليه. فقال له عثمان بن حنيف: ائت الميضأة فتوضأ، ثم ائت المسجد فصل فيه ركعتين. ثم قل: اللهم إني أسألك وأتوجه إليك بنبينا محمد صلى الله عليه وسلم نبي الرحمة، يا محمد إني أتوجه بك إلى ربي فتقضي لي حاجتي، وتذكر حاجتك. ورح حتى أروح معك. فانطلق الرجل فصنع ما قال له. ثم أتى باب عثمان بن عفان، فجاء البواب حتى أخذ بيده، فأدخله على عثمان بن عفان، فأجلسه معه على الطنفسة حنيفا. فقال: حاجتك؟ فذكر حاجته، وقضاها له. ثم قال له: ما ذكرت حاجتك حتى كان الساعة. وقال: ما كانت لك من حاجة فاذكرها. ثم إن الرجل خرج من عنده، فلقي عثمان بن حنيف، فقال له: جزاك الله خيرا ما كان ينظر في حاجتي ولا يلتفت إلي حتى كلمته في. فقال عثمان بن حنيف: والله ما كلمته، ولكني شهدت رسول الله صلى الله عليه واله وسلم، وأتاه ضرير فشكى إليه ذهاب بصره. فقال له النبي صلى الله عليه واله وسلم: فتصبر. فقال: يا رسول الله، ليس لي قائد، وقد شق علي. فقال النبي صلى الله عليه واله وسلم: ائت الميضأة فتوضأ، ثم صل ركعتين، ثم ادع بهذه الدعوات. قال ابن حنيف: فوالله ما تفرقنا وطال بنا الحديث حتى دخل علينا الرجل كأنه لم يكن به ضر قط (المعجم الكبير للطبراني)

Edited by LoveforTruth

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I'm sorry but anyone saying "Ya Ali Madad" is shirk is confused about Islam.

Typical Bakri infiltration into our deen, before you know it, Shi'a are going to fold their hands, wash their feet, demolish graves, shout "TAWFEEEEEEQ!" until their veins burst, make sure to pronounce "SULLA SELLEM" just like it looks in the text, and never forget "radhiallahu ahnhu" after the names of Abu Bakr, Omar, Uthman, Aisha, etc... and make takfir on Rafidhi.

Muhammad (sawa) on the battlefield of Uhud, a Prophet of Allah with pure Tawheed, shouts "YA ALI MADAD!" when he could've shouted "YA Allah MADAD!" Was it because "ya Ali madad" was more powerful than asking Allah? Was it because it was quicker than asking Allah? Was it because he was delusional like Umar said? Was it because he was bewitched like Aisha said? Or was it because "Ya Ali Madad" is a gift from Allah to His Creation.

Ya Ali Madad wa LA HOWLA WA LA QUWATTA ILA BILA, Alhamdulilah for 'Ali (as) and I thank 'Ali (as) for guiding me to Allah!

EDIT:

Subhanallah my post is #33, unintentionally

I point you to Qur'an

Surah al-Ahzab (Chapter 33), Ayat 33: Allah wills to remove all impurities from you Ahlul-Bayt and purify you a perfect purification!

Edited by Dawud Miqdad al-Amriki

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I'm sorry but anyone saying "Ya Ali Madad" is shirk is confused about Islam.

Typical Bakri infiltration into our deen, before you know it, Shi'a are going to fold their hands, wash their feet, demolish graves, shout "TAWFEEEEEEQ!" until their veins burst, make sure to pronounce "SULLA SELLEM" just like it looks in the text, and never forget "radhiallahu ahnhu" after the names of Abu Bakr, Omar, Uthman, Aisha, etc... and make takfir on Rafidhi.

Ok, if it's a 'bakri' infiltration, then show us where the early Shia scholars advocated saying Ya Ali Madad. I'm guessing they wouldn't have been affected by this 'infiltration'. Ironically, any infiltration was likely in a different sense than you think. Rather than it being the Sunni influence that leads to Shias being against saying Ya Ali Madad, it was most likely a Sunni (Sufi) influence that led them to start saying it in the first place.

Muhammad (sawa) on the battlefield of Uhud, a Prophet of Allah with pure Tawheed, shouts "YA ALI MADAD!" when he could've shouted "YA Allah MADAD!" Was it because "ya Ali madad" was more powerful than asking Allah? Was it because it was quicker than asking Allah? Was it because he was delusional like Umar said? Was it because he was bewitched like Aisha said? Or was it because "Ya Ali Madad" is a gift from Allah to His Creation.

Ya Ali Madad wa LA HOWLA WA LA QUWATTA ILA BILA, Alhamdulilah for 'Ali (as) and I thank 'Ali (as) for guiding me to Allah!

Or maybe this never happened. Even if it did, it would simply be an example of a miracle. You can't extrapolate that out to saying we can all pray to Imam Ali (as) after he has left this earth.

EDIT:

Subhanallah my post is #33, unintentionally

I point you to Qur'an

Surah al-Ahzab (Chapter 33), Ayat 33: Allah wills to remove all impurities from you Ahlul-Bayt and purify you a perfect purification!

You can't be serious.

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You can give me the whole 'sanad' argument but that never convinces me.

You are basing a belief on something that can only be found in duas and ziyarats with either no chain of narrations, or very weak ones, but you don't find the argument that a particular dua has no sanad convincing? I would like to ask how you can possibly find convincing the authentication of those duas that have no chain.

You honestly don't find it even a little odd that there is no real mention of this type of practice in major Shia collections of ahadith? Or in the Qur'an? Or in authentic duas, like for example in as-Sahifa as-Sajjadiyah.

If shirk is the biggest sin, then I wonder why such a dua is in Mafatih al Jinan. Ayatollah Tabrizi (ra) reportedly used to read this all the time and emphasized it, so he's obviously a mushrik too and hellbound according to some people, as well as many other grand scholars who used this practice. I would estimate 90% of Shias today read this, including myself - looks like eternal hell for us too.

No scholar is infallible, and you shouldn't base your religion on what he says or does.

As for Dua Tawassul specifically, aside from the fact that there is no reason to think it is authentic, at least it starts by addressing Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, and the intercession it speaks of seems to be on the Day of Judgement.

I'm not here to argue, I'll get destroyed in an argument because of my lack of knowledge. But at least don't conveniently dodge these above narrations. I just don't like the attitude of some people as if they are saying 'we are the few chosen people - all other Shias are people of bidah and deviated mushriks'.

That's not what people are saying. They are just asking for convincing proof, which is never presented. All you get is outrage that people even dare to ask such questions.

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