Six Short Questions For Christians About God

BillyJo · January 18, 2012

1) Christians, when we pray who do we pray for the father, the son, or the holy ghost?

2) And if you believe God is One why do we always see you focusing on the son?

3) And who is the father of that son?

4) And if the father is God and He made the son doesn't that mean God created another God which means there is more than one God?

5) And if we are all sons of God what makes Jesus so special?

6) Almost forgot, who is the holy ghost?

Please reply to the questions with logic that all would understand.. Thank you

Ali Musaaa :) · January 18, 2012

Lol bro, this is a Muslim forum, you may want to try a Christian site?

But brother, Alhamdulilah we have been guided to the right path, so let's not try and ask our Christian brothers questions in order to find fault in their religion. When the time comes (debate) then these questions can be used but instead of finding fault in other religions we should try and strengthen our faith and love for our religion.

Imam Ali (as) said : 'Ask in order to understand, and do not ask in order to find fault, for surely the ignorant man who wants to learn resembles a man of knowledge, and surely a man of knowledge who wants to be difficult resembles an ignorant man who wants to find fault.'

Only Allah and yourself know your true intentions so I'm not saying you are ignorant for asking these questions, just giving you a wise saying to keep in mind :)

Wassalaam

**Son of Placid** · January 18, 2012

Please reply to the questions with logic that all would understand.. Thank you

LOL Sorry, but the NT says Heaven, let alone God is unimaginable, so if our theories stem from other roots we might not understand each other no matter how hard we try. I will do my best.

I actually consider any human theory as incomplete without Heavenly understanding

1) Christians, when we pray who do we pray for the father, the son, or the holy ghost?

Pray for or pray to? Jesus said, "when you pray, pray like this; Our Father which art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy Name." Many groups pray to Jesus like others pray to saints/prophets/imams, etc. I'm probably not the Christian you're looking for because I'm not mainstream. Most Christians pray to God In Jesus name.

2) And if you believe God is One why do we always see you focusing on the son?

Christian "theology" says Jesus is God. You've heard of the trinity, that's one of the srongest dogmas of Christianity, although I don't personally agree with it.

Jesus told Christians how to live. He's the leader of the Christian world, of course there's a focus.

3) And who is the father of that son?

I believe Ibrahim Rasheed and I established in another thread that both the Quran and the NT agreed Jesus was actually the "seed" given to Mary, of the Holy Spirit.

4) And if the father is God and He made the son doesn't that mean God created another God which means there is more than one God?

Even mainstream Christians believe that God is one. I mentioned trinity, mainstream says they are all the same God.

I believe created is created, whatever level of "divinity" each level of creation contains, (including ourselves) and how many types or multitudes of each is still beyond me. There are "entities" mentioned throughout the OT,NT, and Quran, hints of the creation of angels of more than one "type", a perfect hierarchy, Lagos, Satan Jinn, etc. It is humanly impossible to do a head count.

5) And if we are all sons of God what makes Jesus so special?

This question is rhetorical. For the sake of argument let's say Jesus is the perfect Christian. That's somewhat special.

6) Almost forgot, who is the holy ghost?

Mainstream says an attribute of God equal with Jesus. I have trouble with this one because the NT makes a point to mention blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is an unpardonable sin, therefore any description less than who he actually is could be blasphemy.

I believe God's never left Heaven. Of course God is a tremendously personnal God. We are to pray directly to God. If God honours us with His blessing of w/e He says "be" and who/whatever in the hierarchy of angels make it happen.

BillyJo · January 18, 2012

Damn I am new to this site having some trouble quoting but anyways as for Ali, I am inviting them to Islam by showing them corruption in their religion.

As for Son of Placid, I want a mainstream Christian's point of view but I will still argue some points you made

You said in reply to question one "Most Christians pray to God In Jesus name." Then you said "Christian "theology" says Jesus is God." My question is, how do you pray to God in the name of God? That's like me saying "I want to go shopping but I'll go shopping instead"

And in your second reply to my second question you said "Jesus said, "when you pray, pray like this; Our Father which art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy Name." So Jesus also prayed to God? Then he is Muslim! But you guys say he is God which means he prays to himself hmmm :donno:

As for your reply to my third question I am not Ibrahim ;) and Jesus a.s was the seed given by Gabriel a.s. Just another proof Jesus a.s is a creation of God. Although a Christian might say God the father created a baby god to live in a human lady's womb for 9 months and breastfeed from her for two years while Mary a.s changes his diapers .. Does that sound like a God?

I think this has an answer to all the points you brought up :)

Lanatin · January 19, 2012

Shi3i Son of Placid is a unitarian, he doesn't believe Jesus (as) is God.

BillyJo · January 19, 2012

Shi3i Son of Placid is a unitarian, he doesn't believe Jesus (as) is God.

Yes but he argued as if he was a mainstream Christian and I replied as if he was

**Haydar Husayn** · January 19, 2012

Can non-Christians answer these questions if they want to? :donno:

**Son of Placid** · January 19, 2012

Actually, you'd probably get booted from a Christian site for such questions, if not the questions themselves, the approach would do it.

Your post will die waiting for a mainstream Christian to answer, there aren't many that come here very often, and they've all met with that tone before so probably wouldn't bother. If you're inviting Christians to become Muslims you'd do better looking at the similarities of the religions.

Ali's advise is wise.

I'm pretty sure I made it clear I wasn't mainstream, but did give you their basic answers. I won't argue their views, you'll have to find your own Christian for that.

It wouldn't hurt to prove Jesus was the seed of Gabriel tho.

BillyJo · January 19, 2012

Can non-Christians answer these questions if they want to? :donno:

LOL argue all you like

Actually, you'd probably get booted from a Christian site for such questions, if not the questions themselves, the approach would do it.
Your post will die waiting for a mainstream Christian to answer, there aren't many that come here very often, and they've all met with that tone before so probably wouldn't bother. If you're inviting Christians to become Muslims you'd do better looking at the similarities of the religions.
Ali's advise is wise.
I'm pretty sure I made it clear I wasn't mainstream, but did give you their basic answers. I won't argue their views, you'll have to find your own Christian for that.
It wouldn't hurt to prove Jesus was the seed of Gabriel tho.

Yes I understand I didn't use the right words thanks for responding anyways

**placid** · January 26, 2012

Six questions for Christians,

1) Christians, when we pray who do we pray for the father, the son, or the holy ghost?

2) And if you believe God is One why do we always see you focusing on the son?

3) And who is the father of that son?

4) And if the father is God and He made the son doesn't that mean God created another God which means there is more than one God?

5) And if we are all sons of God what makes Jesus so special?

6) Almost forgot, who is the holy ghost?

Please reply to the questions with logic that all would understand.. Thank you

Hi Shi,

I will try to give some short precise answers.

1. We are taught to pray to God the Father, and ask our prayers in Jesus’ name. Jesus said, “Whatsoever you ask the Father in My Name, you shall receive.”

2. God is One, The Word (Logos), and the Holy Spirit are of Deity, but they are Servants of God, rather than other gods. --- In the New Covenant, God brought Jesus into being through the Virgin birth in a human body to be His Savior and Messiah for mankind.

3. In Surah 3:47, it says concerning Jesus, “So it will be. God creates what He will. If He decrees a thing, He says unto it only ‘Be!’ and it is.” --- And 19:35 says of Jesus, “When God determines a thing He says unto it only ‘Be!’ – and it is.” --- In Luke 1:35, ‘And the angel (Gabriel) answered and said to her (Mary), “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to born will be CALLED the Son of God.” --- As both the ‘Holy Spirit of God’ is mentioned, and the ‘power of the Highest,’ --- it is God who is the Father, --- not by a physical relationship with Mary, but by the Holy Spirit planting the seed of life in Mary. --- Surah 21:91, and 66:12.

4. Jesus was CALLED the Son of God, but He was not God. --- Jesus was born as a human but was indwelt by the Word (Logos) of God, who was a Divine Being within the human body of Jesus. Jesus lived as a human and died as a human, but because He was not from a human father He was resurrected from the dead, --- conquering death and giving eternal life to all those who believe in God and accept Him (Jesus) as their savior. John 5:24.

5. We can only be called ‘sons of God’ if we accept the answer given in number 4, --- John 5:24, Jesus said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him (God) who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. --- In Surah 3:50. Jesus said, “I come unto you with a Sign from your Lord so keep your duty to God and obey me. 51. Lo! God is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a Straight path.”

6. The Holy Ghost is the Holy Spirit, whom unfortunately, has been basically unknown to most Muslims, and the Holy Spirit is called “A Spirit of Our Command,” in Surah 42:52, which inspired Muhammad. --- It mentions in the Quran that the Holy Spirit was with Jesus and the evidence is that the miracles of Surah 3:49 were done through the power of the Holy Spirit, which confirms the miracle ministry of Jesus in the NT.

Placid

BillyJo · January 30, 2012

The Holy spirit in Islam is Gabriel a.s according to our beliefs. As for the rest you didn't really answer it was more of an explained confession

**placid** · February 2, 2012

Hi Shi,

Quote: The Holy spirit in Islam is Gabriel a.s according to our beliefs. As for the rest you didn't really answer it was more of an explained confession

--- When you ask questions of Christians do you expect to get Muslim answers?

Gabriel was a holy angel, or messenger of God, but was not the Holy Spirit.

It was Gabriel who spoke to Mary in Luke 1:35 to say that she would have a faultless Son and that He would be CALLED the Son of God.

It was the angel Gabriel that confirmed to Muhammad in Surah 3:3-4 that the former Scriptures were true, --- or else Gabriel would not have confirmed them, would he?

I could also answer your questions this way:

1. Matt 6:5-13. --- John 14:13.

2. John 10:9-10. --- John 5:22-24

3. Matt 3:13-17. --- Matt 17:1-8.

4. Luke 1:26-33. --- Luke 1:34-35. (Emphasis on the word CALLED, --- also compare 34-35 with Surah 3:45-51, and Surah 19:18-21.

5. John 1:12-14. --- John 4:25-26.

6. John 14:15-17. --- John 14:26. --- John 15:26-27. --- John 16:5-14. --- Acts 1:4-8. --- Acts 2:1-4.

orthodox1234 · February 2, 2012

1) Christians, when we pray who do we pray for the father, the son, or the holy ghost?

Three persons of the Holy Trinity. We worship God as one in three persons.

2) And if you believe God is One why do we always see you focusing on the son?

All three persons of the Blessed and most holy Trinity deserve adoration and worship.

3) And who is the father of that son?

God the Father is the Father.

4) And if the father is God and He made the son doesn't that mean God created another God which means there is more than one God?

Not, Christians believe, teach and confess the same faith for 2000 years - Jesus Christ is God incarnate, thus the humanity of Christ was created by the Holy Spirit in the womb of the blessed Virgin Mary.

5) And if we are all sons of God what makes Jesus so special?

The Bible calls unbelievers, non-Christians specifically 'children of the devil' people who confess this Christ are adopted into his family, and are therefore by virtue of adoption called sons of God.

6) Almost forgot, who is the holy ghost?

This person of the Holy Trinity, in submission to the Father AND the Son (Eastern Christianity believes he proceeds only from the Father) he is the gift given after the ascension and is the Vicar of Christ on earth while Christ presently rules in heaven in his session at the right hand of the Father.

Please reply to the questions with logic that all would understand.. Thank you

If you're asking me to answer like a Muslim, then I'd cease to be a Christian. :)

BillyJo · February 2, 2012

Three persons of the Holy Trinity. We worship God as one in three persons. 
 

 
All three persons of the Blessed and most holy Trinity deserve adoration and worship.
 


 
God the Father is the Father. 


 
Not, Christians believe, teach and confess the same faith for 2000 years - Jesus Christ is God incarnate, thus the humanity of Christ was created by the Holy Spirit in the womb of the blessed Virgin Mary.
 


 
The Bible calls unbelievers, non-Christians specifically 'children of the devil' people who confess this Christ are adopted into his family, and are therefore by virtue of adoption called sons of God.
 


 
This person of the Holy Trinity, in submission to the Father AND the Son (Eastern Christianity believes he proceeds only from the Father) he is the gift given after the ascension and is the Vicar of Christ on earth while Christ presently rules in heaven in his session at the right hand of the Father.
 

 
If you're asking me to answer like a Muslim, then I'd cease to be a Christian. :)

Why can't Christians answer something simply? How does "One God" and "Three Persons" even go in the same sentence? Who existed first from those three person?

orthodox1234 · February 2, 2012

Why can't Christians answer something simply? How does "One God" and "Three Persons" even go in the same sentence? Who existed first from those three person?

It seems pretty simple to me; One God and three persons fits in the same sentence and one god, and multiple gods. If you mean how can I assert God is one in essence and three in subsistence, that is the faith expressed in our creeds and confessions according to our revealed text. Mainly the canon of the Old and New Testament. No one 'existed' before the three persons, they are perfectly united in purpose and harmony for eternity.

BillyJo · February 2, 2012

It seems pretty simple to me; One God and three persons fits in the same sentence and one god, and multiple gods. If you mean how can I assert God is one in essence and three in subsistence, that is the faith expressed in our creeds and confessions according to our revealed text. Mainly the canon of the Old and New Testament. No one 'existed' before the three persons, they are perfectly united in purpose and harmony for eternity.

So these three people just sat down together and said "we from now on are united"? I will leave the three persons to you and I will keep my One and only God for me and those who have a bit of common sense. Thanks for your attempt to explain though

y3qub · February 2, 2012

I am an ex-Christian. Whilst I absolutely do not believe in the Holy Trinity (indeed, it was one of the reasons that made me leave), it does have its own logic (although to Jews and Muslims that logic seems, well, illogical).

The view of mainstream Christianity is that the Holy Trinity is like your body. You have all different limbs, but they're all part of your body. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are the limbs to that body, and the "body" being God Himself. If your arm is injured, then your body is injured; and so it is with God.

We don't have to agree with it, in fact we can (and do) openly reject it, but it isn't without its own logic. Making fun of people for their beliefs isn't very polite. You can educate people as to what Islam says about God, but we should refrain from pretending to comprehend another person's belief system and concurrently ridicule it. We do not appreciate people making fun of Islam, and so we should treat the Christian view of God with the same respect we ask of them towards our beliefs.

I forgot to add... all three parts of God coexist eternally with the others in Christianity. None came before and none will end. The only part that was created was the human form that Jesus took (the incarnation).

Edited February 2, 2012 by y3qub

BillyJo · February 2, 2012

I am an ex-Christian. Whilst I absolutely do not believe in the Holy Trinity (indeed, it was one of the reasons that made me leave), it does have its own logic (although to Jews and Muslims that logic seems, well, illogical).
The view of mainstream Christianity is that the Holy Trinity is like your body. You have all different limbs, but they're all part of your body. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are the limbs to that body, and the "body" being God Himself. If your arm is injured, then your body is injured; and so it is with God.
We don't have to agree with it, in fact we can (and do) openly reject it, but it isn't without its own logic. Making fun of people for their beliefs isn't very polite. You can educate people as to what Islam says about God, but we should refrain from pretending to comprehend another person's belief system and concurrently ridicule it. We do not appreciate people making fun of Islam, and so we should treat the Christian view of God with the same respect we ask of them towards our beliefs.
I forgot to add... all three parts of God coexist eternally with the others in Christianity. None came before and none will end. The only part that was created was the human form that Jesus took (the incarnation).

I agree thanks and btw your answer was better than all the answers here

orthodox1234 · February 2, 2012

So these three people just sat down together and said "we from now on are united"? I will leave the three persons to you and I will keep my One and only God for me and those who have a bit of common sense. Thanks for your attempt to explain though

So, you didn't really have questions but wanted to make a statement. Well I'll keep the blessed Trinity thank you very much. And guess what in our churches we have hymns that say this; God in three persons...perfect in power, love and purity. God in the three persons, blessed Trinity.

BillyJo · February 2, 2012

So, you didn't really have questions but wanted to make a statement. Well I'll keep the blessed Trinity thank you very much. And guess what in our churches we have hymns that say this; God in three persons...perfect in power, love and purity. God in the three persons, blessed Trinity.

Allah swt said

[Yusufali 112:1] Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;

[Yusufali 112:2] Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;

[Yusufali 112:3] He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;

[Yusufali 112:4] And there is none like unto Him.

**placid** · February 4, 2012

Quote from Post 19:

So, you didn't really have questions but wanted to make a statement. Well I'll keep the blessed Trinity thank you very much. And guess what in our churches we have hymns that say this; God in three persons...perfect in power, love and purity. God in the three persons, blessed Trinity.

Orthodox1234 gave the ‘mainstream’ answer, which is satisfactory to most Christians. --- It is a Church doctrine which is rarely discussed in Churches, but accepted traditionally, as are the hymns that have been written.

--- If you notice, most questions, including your own, are about the two subjects, --- the trinity, and Jesus, the Son of God, --- which comes from the faulty doctrine of trinity, which was written in the Nicene Creed.

If you study the NT you will not find the word ‘trinity,’ or the doctrine of trinity.

1 John 5:7 says, “For there are three that bear witness in Heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.

In Genesis 1:1, there is God, the Father

In Genesis 1:2, there is the Holy Spirit, who moved over the face of the waters.

In Genesis 1:3, there is the Word (Logos) through whom all things were created.

In John 1:1, In the beginning was the Word (Logos) and the Word was with God.

In John 1:3, All things were made through Him (the Word Logos).

If all things were made through Him, the Word, --- then He had to be there in the beginning with God, so that God could “create all things through Him.”

The faulty part of the doctrine of trinity is that they replace the Word (Logos), who was ‘in the beginning with God,’ --- with Jesus, who was born as a human at the beginning of the New Covenant that God made with mankind.

Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary as a result of the Holy Spirit planting the seed of life in her.

Check Surah 3:47, --- Surah 19: 20-21, 34-35, --- Surah 21:91, --- Surah 66:12.

--- Luke 1:34. Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”

35. And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be CALLED the Son of God.

--- Notice, He was CALLED the Son of God, --- but He came from God, so ‘God was His Father.’ --- He was also called a SERVANT of God in the NT, which He is also called in the Quran. Jesus was also a Prophet, the Messiah and Messenger of God.

Notice these verses in Surah 4:

171. O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning God save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of God, and His Word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a Spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - God is only One God.

172. Christ disdaineth nor to serve and worship God, nor do the angels, those nearest (to God):

Jesus was a Servant who always did God’s will, --- and was the Messenger of God the Father, and His Word, and His Holy Spirit.

This is what 1 John 5:7 says of the three witnesses in heaven, The Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit,--- but notice that Jesus was not one of them.--- However, Muhammad understood it properly, did he not?

Placid

**Christianlady** · February 6, 2012

1) Christians, when we pray who do we pray for the father, the son, or the holy ghost?

Hello Shi3i,

Jesus gave his disciples an example of how to pray. We are to pray to our Heavenly Father:

The following is a teaching of Jesus concerning prayer:

Matthew 6 (NIV)

" ⁵ “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. ⁶ But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. ⁷ And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. ⁸ Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

⁹ “This, then, is how you should pray:

“‘Our Father in heaven,

hallowed be your name,

¹⁰ your kingdom come,

your will be done,

on earth as it is in heaven.

¹¹ Give us today our daily bread.

¹² And forgive us our debts,

as we also have forgiven our debtors.

¹³ And lead us not into temptation,^[^a^]

but deliver us from the evil one.^[^b^]’

¹⁴ For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. ¹⁵ But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

2) And if you believe God is One why do we always see you focusing on the son?

Christians beleive that God sent Jesus to bring people to Him, to rescue people from sin.

Although Muslims focus on Muhammad, Christians focus on Jesus.

Jesus, however, is not just a messenger, but is the visible manifestation of the Invisible God, even before God placed him in the womb of Mary. There are many accounts in the Scriptures of a man, who Christians believe is Jesus.

They include the following account:

Genesis 32 (NIV)

"²⁴ So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. ²⁵ When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. ²⁶ Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.”

But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.”

²⁷ The man asked him, “What is your name?”

“Jacob,” he answered.

²⁸ Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel,^[Israel probably means he struggles with God^] because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.”

²⁹ Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.”

But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there.

³⁰ So Jacob called the place Peniel,^[Peniel means face of God..^] saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”

³¹ The sun rose above him as he passed Peniel,^[^h^] and he was limping because of his hip. ³² Therefore to this day the Israelites do not eat the tendon attached to the socket of the hip, because the socket of Jacob’s hip was touched near the tendon."

3) And who is the father of that son?

God, the One and Only Creator of the universe

4) And if the father is God and He made the son doesn't that mean God created another God which means there is more than one God?

No. It means with God nothing is impossible.

5) And if we are all sons of God what makes Jesus so special?

Jesus is special because He existed as the Word of God before God formed the earth. God sent Jesus at various times throughout history, including the time when Jacob wrestled with him (account above) God placed Jesus in the womb of Mary, a humble Israeli, through miraculous means, and not through the normal human method of reproduction. Jesus did not sin and Jesus rose from the dead, according to God's plan and power. All of these amazing miracles that God did through Jesus is what makes Jesus so special.

6) Almost forgot, who is the holy ghost?

The Spirit of God (first mentioned in Genesis 1)

Please reply to the questions with logic that all would understand.. Thank you

It is possible that you will not find any answers to be logical, since most Christians, including me, believe that only through God opening peoples' hearts/eyes/spirits and teaching them, can they understand.

Peace and God bless you

John 6 (NIV)

"⁴¹ At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” ⁴² They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?” ⁴³ “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. ⁴⁴ “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. ⁴⁵ It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’^[Isaiah 54:13^] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me."

Edited February 6, 2012 by Christianlady

BillyJo · February 6, 2012

Hello Shi3i,
Jesus gave his disciples an example of how to pray. We are to pray to our Heavenly Father:
The following is a teaching of Jesus concerning prayer:
Matthew 6 (NIV)
" ⁵ “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. ⁶ But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. ⁷ And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. ⁸ Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
⁹ “This, then, is how you should pray:
“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
¹⁰ your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
¹¹ Give us today our daily bread.
¹² And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
¹³ And lead us not into temptation,^[^a^]
but deliver us from the evil one.^[^b^]’
¹⁴ For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. ¹⁵ But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."
Christians beleive that God sent Jesus to bring people to Him, to rescue people from sin.
Although Muslims focus on Muhammad, Christians focus on Jesus.
Jesus, however, is not just a messenger, but is the visible manifestation of the Invisible God, even before God placed him in the womb of Mary. There are many accounts in the Scriptures of a man, who Christians believe is Jesus.
They include the following account:
Genesis 32 (NIV)
"²⁴ So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. ²⁵ When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. ²⁶ Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.”
But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.”
²⁷ The man asked him, “What is your name?”
“Jacob,” he answered.
²⁸ Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel,^[Israel probably means he struggles with God^] because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.”
²⁹ Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.”
But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there.
³⁰ So Jacob called the place Peniel,^[Peniel means face of God..^] saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”
³¹ The sun rose above him as he passed Peniel,^[^h^] and he was limping because of his hip. ³² Therefore to this day the Israelites do not eat the tendon attached to the socket of the hip, because the socket of Jacob’s hip was touched near the tendon."
God, the One and Only Creator of the universe
No. It means with God nothing is impossible.
Jesus is special because He existed as the Word of God before God formed the earth. God sent Jesus at various times throughout history, including the time when Jacob wrestled with him (account above) God placed Jesus in the womb of Mary, a humble Israeli, through miraculous means, and not through the normal human method of reproduction. Jesus did not sin and Jesus rose from the dead, according to God's plan and power. All of these amazing miracles that God did through Jesus is what makes Jesus so special.
The Spirit of God (first mentioned in Genesis 1)
It is possible that you will not find any answers to be logical, since most Christians, including me, believe that only through God opening peoples' hearts/eyes/spirits and teaching them, can they understand.
Peace and God bless you
John 6 (NIV)
"⁴¹ At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” ⁴² They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?” ⁴³ “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. ⁴⁴ “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. ⁴⁵ It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’^[Isaiah 54:13^] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me."

I am sorry I don't mean to be rude or anything but in my short 20 years of life I have never heard anything more illogical than this .. How does God expect me to follow a religion which is not logical? I understand that the concept of God is above logic but this just contradicts every aspect of it. When I stand in front of God I think I will have a great excuse if Christianity is right I will just say "Oh God, I never expected you want us to follow a religion that doesn't go with logic so I followed a religion which goes with logic I hope you don't punish me for that but if a human could make a religion with more logic than God's religion it just makes sense that that religion is either right or you didn't exist"

Anyways peace and I hope you actually reread what you said and think about it.

I hope you read this book Please read this book http://www.al-islam.org/inquiries/ which is ann exchange of letters that took place between the Muslim scholar, Imam Mohamad Jawad Chirri, and Dr. Wilson H. Guertin, that led Dr. Guertin to accept Islam. Writes Dr. Guertin: "If you are a Muslim, read this book out of the obligation to acquire knowledge. If you are a Jew or Christian, read it for the same devout motive. Comparative study of religions may be unsettling if your belief in God is based upon non-rational grounds but can only have the ultimately desired result of strengthening your belief. The pervasive belief in God as represented in our motives must be the goal which our religious educators work toward, with gains in sectarian support becoming quite secondary... If you are unable to say that you believe in God, you can still find value in the study of religion. In the following pages of dialogue, you will be pursuing some of the most important concerns of mankind that can be traced back to the beginning of recorded history. The thoughts and historical events are important in their own right, and perhaps you will, as I have, find the way to a belief in God through them."

**Christianlady** · February 7, 2012

I am sorry I don't mean to be rude or anything but in my short 20 years of life I have never heard anything more illogical than this .. How does God expect me to follow a religion which is not logical? I understand that the concept of God is above logic

Hello Shi3i,

No offense taken. This is a comparative religion topic. I understand you do not believe what I believe.

If you understand that the concept of God is above logic, then how can you not understand that God expects people to trust in Him without applying mere human logic to getting to know Him?

Most Atheists think that anyone who believes in God is not using logic, because an Atheist cannot see God, cannot hear God, cannot smell God, cannot taste God, and cannot feel God. They cannot see God through a microscope. They cannot see God through a telescope. Because they can't experience God with their senses or see Him using man-made aids, they logically believe that God does not exist.

However, as a Christian, I know God exists. I hear Him (though I don't hear voices). I see Him (though I don't see his form). I see/hear/feel Him through my spirit, and I know 100% that God exists, even though Atheists consider my experience of God to be illogical. That is the same with you. You do not believe Christian beliefs to be logical, because you have not experienced what I have experienced, same as Atheists have not experienced what I have experienced. Even though you believe in God, your spirit has not been opened to Jesus. That is what I am saying conerning how to you, what Christians believe is illogical. To Atheists, what Christians believe (as well as what Muslims believe) is also illogical.

but this just contradicts every aspect of it. When I stand in front of God I think I will have a great excuse if Christianity is right I will just say "Oh God, I never expected you want us to follow a religion that doesn't go with logic so I followed a religion which goes with logic I hope you don't punish me for that but if a human could make a religion with more logic than God's religion it just makes sense that that religion is either right or you didn't exist"

Atheists have told me that if there is a God, they have a great excuse in not believing in Him, cause they have never seen Him. Your excuse above is very similar to an Atheist's excuse. An Atheist could very well "plan" on saying "Oh God, I never expected you want us to follow a religion that doesn't go with logic so I followed logic I hope you don't punish me for that because I thought you didn't exist." Atheists think very much that way, that God didn't do a "good job" of making a religion. Atheists don't agree with any religion nor think any religion is logical. Why? Because their spirits have not been taught by God. Though at least you believe in God, you do not understand and you think Christian beliefs are illogical because you have not been taught by God.

Anyways peace and I hope you actually reread what you said and think about it.

I hope you do as well, and pray about it.

I hope you read this book Please read this book http://www.al-islam.org/inquiries/ which is ann exchange of letters that took place between the Muslim scholar, Imam Mohamad Jawad Chirri, and Dr. Wilson H. Guertin, that led Dr. Guertin to accept Islam. Writes Dr. Guertin: "If you are a Muslim, read this book out of the obligation to acquire knowledge. If you are a Jew or Christian, read it for the same devout motive. Comparative study of religions may be unsettling if your belief in God is based upon non-rational grounds but can only have the ultimately desired result of strengthening your belief. The pervasive belief in God as represented in our motives must be the goal which our religious educators work toward, with gains in sectarian support becoming quite secondary... If you are unable to say that you believe in God, you can still find value in the study of religion. In the following pages of dialogue, you will be pursuing some of the most important concerns of mankind that can be traced back to the beginning of recorded history. The thoughts and historical events are important in their own right, and perhaps you will, as I have, find the way to a belief in God through them."

Sure. If you would like, I will write about it while reading it?

Please read Jesus' words, accounted in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Please pray, asking God for wisdom, as you do so.

Peace and God bless you

John 6 (NIV)

"³⁵ Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. ³⁶ But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. ³⁷ All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. ³⁸ For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. ³⁹ And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. ⁴⁰ For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

⁴¹ At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” ⁴² They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

⁴³ “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. ⁴⁴ “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. ⁴⁵ It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’Isaiah 54:13^] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. ⁴⁶ No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. ⁴⁷ Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Christianlady

BillyJo · February 7, 2012

Hello Shi3i,
No offense taken. This is a comparative religion topic. I understand you do not believe what I believe.
If you understand that the concept of God is above logic, then how can you not understand that God expects people to trust in Him without applying mere human logic to getting to know Him?
Most Atheists think that anyone who believes in God is not using logic, because an Atheist cannot see God, cannot hear God, cannot smell God, cannot taste God, and cannot feel God. They cannot see God through a microscope. They cannot see God through a telescope. Because they can't experience God with their senses or see Him using man-made aids, they logically believe that God does not exist.
However, as a Christian, I know God exists. I hear Him (though I don't hear voices). I see Him (though I don't see his form). I see/hear/feel Him through my spirit, and I know 100% that God exists, even though Atheists consider my experience of God to be illogical. That is the same with you. You do not believe Christian beliefs to be logical, because you have not experienced what I have experienced, same as Atheists have not experienced what I have experienced. Even though you believe in God, your spirit has not been opened to Jesus. That is what I am saying conerning how to you, what Christians believe is illogical. To Atheists, what Christians believe (as well as what Muslims believe) is also illogical.
Atheists have told me that if there is a God, they have a great excuse in not believing in Him, cause they have never seen Him. Your excuse above is very similar to an Atheist's excuse. An Atheist could very well "plan" on saying "Oh God, I never expected you want us to follow a religion that doesn't go with logic so I followed logic I hope you don't punish me for that because I thought you didn't exist." Atheists think very much that way, that God didn't do a "good job" of making a religion. Atheists don't agree with any religion nor think any religion is logical. Why? Because their spirits have not been taught by God. Though at least you believe in God, you do not understand and you think Christian beliefs are illogical because you have not been taught by God.
I hope you do as well, and pray about it.
Sure. If you would like, I will write about it while reading it?
Please read Jesus' words, accounted in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Please pray, asking God for wisdom, as you do so.
Peace and God bless you
John 6 (NIV)
"³⁵ Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. ³⁶ But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. ³⁷ All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. ³⁸ For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. ³⁹ And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. ⁴⁰ For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
⁴¹ At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” ⁴² They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”
⁴³ “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. ⁴⁴ “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. ⁴⁵ It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’Isaiah 54:13^] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. ⁴⁶ No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. ⁴⁷ Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

Atheists think there isn't a God because they can't see him if they prove it scientifically I would become an atheist but till now I have found Islam goes toe to toe with science. Atheists are dumb because God isn't a physical body to be seen. In Islam God doesn't have a shape or body nor is He made of particles but we see or experience God though his Messengers which show us who God is. Allah already answered the questions

This is what sounds logical when it comes about Prophet Jesus a.s. Allah said in the chapter of Lady Mary a.s

[Yusufali 19:16] Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.

[Yusufali 19:17] She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.

[Yusufali 19:18] She said: "I seek refuge from thee to (Allah) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear Allah."

[Yusufali 19:19] He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.

[Yusufali 19:20] She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"

[Yusufali 19:21] He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us':It is a matter (so) decreed."

[Yusufali 19:22] So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.

[Yusufali 19:23] And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: She cried (in her anguish): "Ah! would that I had died before this! would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!"

[Yusufali 19:24] But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-tree): "Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee;

[Yusufali 19:25] "And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: It will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee.

[Yusufali 19:26] "So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man, say, 'I have vowed a fast to (Allah) Most Gracious, and this day will I enter into not talk with any human being'"

[Yusufali 19:27] At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!

[Yusufali 19:28] "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"

[Yusufali 19:29] But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?"

[Yusufali 19:30] He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;

[Yusufali 19:31] "And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;

[Yusufali 19:32] "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;

[Yusufali 19:33] "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!

[Yusufali 19:34] Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.

[Yusufali 19:35] It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.

[Yusufali 19:36] Verily Allah is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight.

Allah also said in another chapter

[Yusufali 4:171] O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

I love the bible I read it every now and then. There is so wisdom that can be found in it and other stuff are just written by non-Infallible men so there are some mistakes one of the most important mistakes is the original text with the language the bible was written isn't available so all the translations now can not be relied on unlike Arabic which has been preserved for almost 2000 years

Salam

**Christianlady** · February 7, 2012

Atheists think there isn't a God because they can't see him if they prove it scientifically I would become an atheist

Hello Shi3i,

If you ask some Atheists, some will tell you that it is already proven scientifically that God doesn't exist. Please google scientific research that God does not exist. (Please don't become an Atheist... I would hope your beliefs in Islam are stronger than mere scientific research.)

but till now I have found Islam goes toe to toe with science.

Please debate with atheist scientiests about this. That would be interesting.

Atheists are dumb

Actually, there are many incredibly smart atheists. Many Atheists are highly intelligent and have invented technology that some believers in God have no idea how to create. So, I would refrain from insulting number 1 because your insult for atheists is a blanket statement that is true in all cases, and 2 it is not polite, and 3 it is not a valid persuasive argument.

because God isn't a physical body to be seen.

Jesus says this. However, just because someone doesn't accept this, doesn't mean they are not smart. It just means they have not yet experienced that God is not a mere physical body.

Matthew 6 (NIV)

" ⁶ But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."

In Islam God doesn't have a shape or body nor is He made of particles but we see or experience God though his Messengers which show us who God is. Allah already answered the questions

In Christian beliefs, we see God through His Wonderful Word, His Creation, His acts, His attributes, Jesus, and His Holy Spirit.

This is what sounds logical when it comes about Prophet Jesus a.s. Allah said in the chapter of Lady Mary a.s
[Yusufali 19:16] Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.
[Yusufali 19:17] She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.
[Yusufali 19:18] She said: "I seek refuge from thee to (Allah) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear Allah."
[Yusufali 19:19] He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.
[Yusufali 19:20] She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"
[Yusufali 19:21] He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us':It is a matter (so) decreed."
[Yusufali 19:22] So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.
[Yusufali 19:23] And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: She cried (in her anguish): "Ah! would that I had died before this! would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!"
[Yusufali 19:24] But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-tree): "Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee;
[Yusufali 19:25] "And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: It will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee.
[Yusufali 19:26] "So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man, say, 'I have vowed a fast to (Allah) Most Gracious, and this day will I enter into not talk with any human being'"
[Yusufali 19:27] At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!
[Yusufali 19:28] "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"
[Yusufali 19:29] But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?"
[Yusufali 19:30] He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;
[Yusufali 19:31] "And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;
[Yusufali 19:32] "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;
[Yusufali 19:33] "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!
[Yusufali 19:34] Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.
[Yusufali 19:35] It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.
[Yusufali 19:36] Verily Allah is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight.

Muhammad knew Christians, though I don't think the Christians he knew understood the Bible very well. However, he heard stories about Mary before he received "revelations." The accounts about Mary in Luke is true. Have you ever read the account about Mary in Luke?

Luke 1 (NIV) - I boldened some.

"²⁶ In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, ²⁷ to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. ²⁸ The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

²⁹ Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. ³⁰ But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. ³¹ You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. ³² He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, ³³ and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”

³⁴ “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”

³⁵ The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called^[^b^] the Son of God. ³⁶ Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. ³⁷ For no word from God will ever fail.”

³⁸ “I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May your word to me be fulfilled.” Then the angel left her.

Mary Visits Elizabeth

³⁹At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, ⁴⁰ where she entered Zechariah’s home and greeted Elizabeth. ⁴¹ When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. ⁴² In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! ⁴³ But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? ⁴⁴ As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. ⁴⁵ Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord would fulfill his promises to her!”

Mary’s Song

⁴⁶ And Mary said:

“My soul glorifies the Lord

⁴⁷ and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,

⁴⁸ for he has been mindful

of the humble state of his servant.

From now on all generations will call me blessed,

⁴⁹ for the Mighty One has done great things for me—

holy is his name.

⁵⁰ His mercy extends to those who fear him,

from generation to generation.

⁵¹ He has performed mighty deeds with his arm;

he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.

⁵² He has brought down rulers from their thrones

but has lifted up the humble.

⁵³ He has filled the hungry with good things

but has sent the rich away empty.

⁵⁴He has helped his servant Israel,

remembering to be merciful

⁵⁵ to Abraham and his descendants forever,

just as he promised our ancestors.”

⁵⁶ Mary stayed with Elizabeth for about three months and then returned home. "

Please remember that Mary is an Israeli, a descendant of Israel (Jacob) son of Isaac son of Abraham. She is not Arabic, and she did not express herself like an Arab, but rather like a Jewish who knows who she is.

Allah also said in another chapter
[Yusufali 4:171] O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

I know that you think that Allah, or God, said this. However, the Quran is a book dictated by one man - Muhammad, who claims that he was given these revelations by God. Not everyone who claims he is a prophet is a true prophet. To Christians, Muhammad is one of the false prophets who Jesus prophesied would come.

Matthew 24 (NIV) (I boldened some.)

"¹ Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. ² “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

³ As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

⁴Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. ⁵ For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. ⁶ You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. ⁷ Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. ⁸ All these are the beginning of birth pains.

⁹ “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. ¹⁰ At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, ¹¹ and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. ¹² Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, ¹³ but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. ¹⁴ And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

¹⁵ “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’^[Daniel 9:27; 11:31; 12:11^] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— ¹⁶ then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. ¹⁷ Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. ¹⁸ Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. ¹⁹ How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! ²⁰ Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. ²¹ For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

²² “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. ²³ At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. ²⁴For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.²⁵ See, I have told you ahead of time."

I love the bible I read it every now and then. There is so wisdom that can be found in it

I love the Bible too, and read it almost every day. Yes I agree, God's wisdom and truth are found in the Bible.

and other stuff are just written by non-Infallible men so there are some mistakes one of the most important mistakes is the original text with the language the bible was written isn't available so all the translations now can not be relied on unlike Arabic which has been preserved for almost 2000 years

Some people disagree with the validity of the Quran, but I have no desire to debate about that because frankly it does not interest me. However, people are prone to error, so of course there will be mistakes in translation. I am bilingual: English and Spanish, and I struggle sometimes to translate English into Spanish and visa versa, so of course there are translation issues concerning the Bible. Now thank God with technology, people can record and keep better than the people of long time ago could. That is one blessing God gave people through the use of technology.

Salam

Peace and God bless you. I have to go now and hope to read more of the article in the other thread later. Could you please find in the Quran the points the author made concerning the rules contained in the Quran? Thanks.

Peace and God bless you

BillyJo · February 7, 2012

Hello Shi3i,
If you ask some Atheists, some will tell you that it is already proven scientifically that God doesn't exist. Please google scientific research that God does not exist. (Please don't become an Atheist... I would hope your beliefs in Islam are stronger than mere scientific research.)
Please debate with atheist scientiests about this. That would be interesting.
Actually, there are many incredibly smart atheists. Many Atheists are highly intelligent and have invented technology that some believers in God have no idea how to create. So, I would refrain from insulting number 1 because your insult for atheists is a blanket statement that is true in all cases, and 2 it is not polite, and 3 it is not a valid persuasive argument.
Jesus says this. However, just because someone doesn't accept this, doesn't mean they are not smart. It just means they have not yet experienced that God is not a mere physical body.
Matthew 6 (NIV)
" ⁶ But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."
In Christian beliefs, we see God through His Wonderful Word, His Creation, His acts, His attributes, Jesus, and His Holy Spirit.
Muhammad knew Christians, though I don't think the Christians he knew understood the Bible very well. However, he heard stories about Mary before he received "revelations." The accounts about Mary in Luke is true. Have you ever read the account about Mary in Luke?
Luke 1 (NIV) - I boldened some.
"²⁶ In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, ²⁷ to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. ²⁸ The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”
²⁹ Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. ³⁰ But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. ³¹ You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. ³² He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, ³³ and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”
³⁴ “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”
³⁵ The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called^[^b^] the Son of God. ³⁶ Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. ³⁷ For no word from God will ever fail.”
³⁸ “I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May your word to me be fulfilled.” Then the angel left her.
Mary Visits Elizabeth
³⁹At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, ⁴⁰ where she entered Zechariah’s home and greeted Elizabeth. ⁴¹ When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. ⁴² In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! ⁴³ But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? ⁴⁴ As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. ⁴⁵ Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord would fulfill his promises to her!”
Mary’s Song
⁴⁶ And Mary said:
“My soul glorifies the Lord
⁴⁷ and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
⁴⁸ for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant.
From now on all generations will call me blessed,
⁴⁹ for the Mighty One has done great things for me—
holy is his name.
⁵⁰ His mercy extends to those who fear him,
from generation to generation.
⁵¹ He has performed mighty deeds with his arm;
he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
⁵² He has brought down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
⁵³ He has filled the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty.
⁵⁴He has helped his servant Israel,
remembering to be merciful
⁵⁵ to Abraham and his descendants forever,
just as he promised our ancestors.”
⁵⁶ Mary stayed with Elizabeth for about three months and then returned home. "
Please remember that Mary is an Israeli, a descendant of Israel (Jacob) son of Isaac son of Abraham. She is not Arabic, and she did not express herself like an Arab, but rather like a Jewish who knows who she is.
I know that you think that Allah, or God, said this. However, the Quran is a book dictated by one man - Muhammad, who claims that he was given these revelations by God. Not everyone who claims he is a prophet is a true prophet. To Christians, Muhammad is one of the false prophets who Jesus prophesied would come.
Matthew 24 (NIV) (I boldened some.)
"¹ Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. ² “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
³ As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
⁴Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. ⁵ For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. ⁶ You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. ⁷ Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. ⁸ All these are the beginning of birth pains.
⁹ “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. ¹⁰ At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, ¹¹ and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. ¹² Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, ¹³ but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. ¹⁴ And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
¹⁵ “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’^[Daniel 9:27; 11:31; 12:11^] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— ¹⁶ then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. ¹⁷ Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. ¹⁸ Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. ¹⁹ How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! ²⁰ Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. ²¹ For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
²² “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. ²³ At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. ²⁴For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.²⁵ See, I have told you ahead of time."
I love the Bible too, and read it almost every day. Yes I agree, God's wisdom and truth are found in the Bible.
Some people disagree with the validity of the Quran, but I have no desire to debate about that because frankly it does not interest me. However, people are prone to error, so of course there will be mistakes in translation. I am bilingual: English and Spanish, and I struggle sometimes to translate English into Spanish and visa versa, so of course there are translation issues concerning the Bible. Now thank God with technology, people can record and keep better than the people of long time ago could. That is one blessing God gave people through the use of technology.
Peace and God bless you. I have to go now and hope to read more of the article in the other thread later. Could you please find in the Quran the points the author made concerning the rules contained in the Quran? Thanks.
Peace and God bless you

You think that the Quran is supposed to agree 100% with the bible? If it did there would be no need for the Quran. The only reason the Quran came is to restore the true faith after the Christians corrupted the religion of Jesus therefore Allah tells us the true story of what happened. I don't think Mary a.s being Israeli or Semetic has anything to do with anything

Of course you don't believe he is a Prophet if you did you would follow him. I believe the bible is corrupted so how do you expect me to believe it? Give me the original text in the language it was sent in and I will leave Islam. Also give me proof the bible was written by Jesus and not his companions

As for you saying the Prophet (P) had no knowledge with the bible that is wrong since he debated the Christians and Jews with their own books without them being present in his hand because he knew them. A good debate happened between the top Christian back in the days and the 8th great grandson of Prophet Muhammad (P) and he argued without a book present as well

There is some wisdom in the bible but as for truth not really

Comparing the bible to the Quran is like comparing the sun to a flashlight. Read both of them and see which makes sense and is more beautiful although the Quran is most beautiful in Arabic

What do you mean by rules contained in the Quran?

**Christianlady** · February 14, 2012

You think that the Quran is supposed to agree 100% with the bible? If it did there would be no need for the Quran. The only reason the Quran came is to restore the true faith after the Christians corrupted the religion of Jesus therefore Allah tells us the true story of what happened. I don't think Mary a.s being Israeli or Semetic has anything to do with anything

Hello BillyJo,

I apologize for neglecting to read your reply and reply back to you. I do hope you do not leave, but if you do, I respect your decision. Anyways, Christians do not believe that Christians corrupted the accounts of what Jesus said and did, and Christians do not believe that it is possible to corrupt the Holy Spirit = Spirit of Truth = Advocate, that Jesus promised to his disciples. The disciples of Jesus, who walked and talked with him, did receive the Holy Spirit, and God's Spirit does not corrupt anymore than God does, because God's Spirit is part of God (like your spirit is a part of you). Christians also do not believe the allegations Muhammad and Muslims make against Jewish people. We do not believe that Jewish people corrupted God's Word. We do not believe that God allows His Word to be corrupted.

Of course you don't believe he is a Prophet if you did you would follow him.

True.

I believe the bible is corrupted so how do you expect me to believe it?

I do not expect you to believe it. My goal is not to persuade you to believe it. My goal is to explain why other people (including myself) believe that the Bible is not corrupted, but rather that God protected His Word and the accounts the disciples of Jesus, who walked and talked with him, gave to the generations of followers of Jesus after them.

Give me the original text in the language it was sent in and I will leave Islam.

Repenter did this threat to leave Islam too, which I don't understand why. Why is it some Muslims threaten to leave their faith? Faith is a matter of the heart between a person and God... it should not be bargained like that. Is that a joke that some Muslims have? Sometimes there are communication barriers, based on cultures, even though we are writing in English. Anways,

The Tanakh is originally written in Hebrew. The Tanakh is a collection of manuscripts that the descendants of Jacob (Israel) have faithfully kept (and Christians believe are not corrupted) The Old Testament is the translation of the Tanakh, and though there are some differences (which if you ask Jewish Orthodox people, they will tell you, or you can compare the Tanakh in English to the Old Testament in English. The New Testament is a collection of manuscripts and letters written mostly in Greek. Just as today, English is the international language, so in that time period in that area of the world, Greek was the international language.

Also give me proof the bible was written by Jesus and not his companions

I do not think you understand that Jesus did not write the Bible. Do you understand that the Tanakh, which was the Scriptures Jesus quoted and followed, was around way before Mary gave birth to Jesus? Do you understand that Jesus did not write a book, but rather preached the good news of the Kingdom of Heaven, taught people about their Father in Heaven (God), healed people, and obeyed what God (his father) told him to do, including dying? Jesus did not write a book. Also, the New Testament is not just one man's story. The New Testament is a collection of the accounts of Jesus' apostles, who Jesus chose who walked and talked with him, and Jesus' disciples who followed him.

As for you saying the Prophet (P) had no knowledge with the bible that is wrong since he debated the Christians and Jews with their own books without them being present in his hand because he knew them. A good debate happened between the top Christian back in the days and the 8th great grandson of Prophet Muhammad (P) and he argued without a book present as well

I am saying that Muhammad knew Christians (or people who called themselves Christians) and talked with them.

media]
There is some wisdom in the bible but as for truth not really

Do you understand what wisdom is? Do you think truth is not wisdom and wisdom is not truth?

According to http://dictionary.re...m/browse/wisdom

"wis·dom

[wiz-duhm] wise; knowledge of what is true or right coupled with just judgment as to action; sagacity, discernment, or insight. "

How can there be "some wisdom.... but truth not really" in the Bible when wisdom is the " knowledge of what is true or right coupled with just action." ?

Comparing the bible to the Quran is like comparing the sun to a flashlight. Read both of them and see which makes sense and is more beautiful although the Quran is most beautiful in Arabic

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. I very much disagree with you.

What do you mean by rules contained in the Quran?

What does the Quran say to do, and not to do?

Peace and God bless you

Edited February 14, 2012 by Christianlady

BillyJo · February 14, 2012

Hello BillyJo,
I apologize for neglecting to read your reply and reply back to you. I do hope you do not leave, but if you do, I respect your decision. Anyways, Christians do not believe that Christians corrupted the accounts of what Jesus said and did, and Christians do not believe that it is possible to corrupt the Holy Spirit = Spirit of Truth = Advocate, that Jesus promised to his disciples. The disciples of Jesus, who walked and talked with him, did receive the Holy Spirit, and God's Spirit does not corrupt anymore than God does, because God's Spirit is part of God (like your spirit is a part of you). Christians also do not believe the allegations Muhammad and Muslims make against Jewish people. We do not believe that Jewish people corrupted God's Word. We do not believe that God allows His Word to be corrupted.
True.
I do not expect you to believe it. My goal is not to persuade you to believe it. My goal is to explain why other people (including myself) believe that the Bible is not corrupted, but rather that God protected His Word and the accounts the disciples of Jesus, who walked and talked with him, gave to the generations of followers of Jesus after them.
Repenter did this threat to leave Islam too, which I don't understand why. Why is it some Muslims threaten to leave their faith? Faith is a matter of the heart between a person and God... it should not be bargained like that. Is that a joke that some Muslims have? Sometimes there are communication barriers, based on cultures, even though we are writing in English. Anways,
The Tanakh is originally written in Hebrew. The Tanakh is a collection of manuscripts that the descendants of Jacob (Israel) have faithfully kept (and Christians believe are not corrupted) The Old Testament is the translation of the Tanakh, and though there are some differences (which if you ask Jewish Orthodox people, they will tell you, or you can compare the Tanakh in English to the Old Testament in English. The New Testament is a collection of manuscripts and letters written mostly in Greek. Just as today, English is the international language, so in that time period in that area of the world, Greek was the international language.
I do not think you understand that Jesus did not write the Bible. Do you understand that the Tanakh, which was the Scriptures Jesus quoted and followed, was around way before Mary gave birth to Jesus? Do you understand that Jesus did not write a book, but rather preached the good news of the Kingdom of Heaven, taught people about their Father in Heaven (God), healed people, and obeyed what God (his father) told him to do, including dying? Jesus did not write a book. Also, the New Testament is not just one man's story. The New Testament is a collection of the accounts of Jesus' apostles, who Jesus chose who walked and talked with him, and Jesus' disciples who followed him.
I am saying that Muhammad knew Christians (or people who called themselves Christians) and talked with them.
Do you understand what wisdom is? Do you think truth is not wisdom and wisdom is not truth?
According to http://dictionary.re...m/browse/wisdom
"wis·dom
[wiz-duhm] wise; knowledge of what is true or right coupled with just judgment as to action; sagacity, discernment, or insight. "
How can there be "some wisdom.... but truth not really" in the Bible when wisdom is the " knowledge of what is true or right coupled with just action." ?
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. I very much disagree with you.
What does the Quran say to do, and not to do?
Peace and God bless you

I will make my response short inshella

If Jesus followed a scripture then he was a normal person. Now let me pour out some arguments I have against Christianity

Jesus was supposedly sent to save humanity right? Why wasn't he sent before other Prophets? And Prophets didn't believe in him so does that make them deviant?

How can a sin be inherited? That's not just at all. Wasn't Adam originally born pure? So we should have inherited the pureness not the sin

I thought wisdom is like hikma in Arabic for example when you are wise you think in a deep way but its not always correct for example we believe Aristotle and Plato are wise but they aren't right

The Quran is a big book I can't just tell you everything you would have to read it :)

Salam

**Son of Placid** · February 15, 2012

How can a sin be inherited? That's not just at all. Wasn't Adam originally born pure? So we should have inherited the pureness not the sin

If I may I'd like to comment on this question. It is probably one of the most misunderstood concepts including Christians.

Yes, Adam had a pure body. The common story is Adam ate the forbidden fruit, blamed it on Eve and got kicked out of the garden. The sin was eating the forbidden fruit and it looks like Adam was never forgiven, therefore we're all sinners.

After Adam and Eve ate of the fruit they started to notice themselves as naked. The common thought about Adam and Eve's nakedness is interpreted as a guilty conscience. They now understood the difference between good and evil, disobedience, etc.

Because they felt naked they hid from God. When God called them out they were wearing fig leaves. I believe that the forbidden fruit actually contained something impure which caused a physical change in their bodies. Imho this is confirmed when God gives them skins to wear. (first animal sacrifice?) As for the rest of the Bible nakedness is refered to as shame. Adam's sin was forgiven and never inherrited by their children, but the impure physical changes had been made which is why they had to leave the garden. The changes were because of Adam's sin. The world wasn't cursed by Adam's sin but because of the reprocussions of the sin.

BillyJo · February 15, 2012

If I may I'd like to comment on this question. It is probably one of the most misunderstood concepts including Christians.
Yes, Adam had a pure body. The common story is Adam ate the forbidden fruit, blamed it on Eve and got kicked out of the garden. The sin was eating the forbidden fruit and it looks like Adam was never forgiven, therefore we're all sinners.
After Adam and Eve ate of the fruit they started to notice themselves as naked. The common thought about Adam and Eve's nakedness is interpreted as a guilty conscience. They now understood the difference between good and evil, disobedience, etc.
Because they felt naked they hid from God. When God called them out they were wearing fig leaves. I believe that the forbidden fruit actually contained something impure which caused a physical change in their bodies. Imho this is confirmed when God gives them skins to wear. (first animal sacrifice?) As for the rest of the Bible nakedness is refered to as shame. Adam's sin was forgiven and never inherrited by their children, but the impure physical changes had been made which is why they had to leave the garden. The changes were because of Adam's sin. The world wasn't cursed by Adam's sin but because of the reprocussions of the sin.

We are all sinners because Adam ate a fruit? You can't say that the fruit itself was a sin because God doesn't create sin we create it so you can only say that the action of eating the fruit was a sin so the argument remains and even Christians don't say the fruit itself was a sin. If their nakedness is interpreted as shame then where did the leaves covering their private parts come from?

BlackWave · February 15, 2012

Hello Shi3i,
Jesus gave his disciples an example of how to pray. We are to pray to our Heavenly Father:
The following is a teaching of Jesus concerning prayer:
Matthew 6 (NIV)
" ⁵ “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. ⁶ But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. ⁷ And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. ⁸ Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
⁹ “This, then, is how you should pray:
“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
¹⁰ your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
¹¹ Give us today our daily bread.
¹² And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
¹³ And lead us not into temptation,^[^a^]
but deliver us from the evil one.^[^b^]’
¹⁴ For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. ¹⁵ But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."
Christians beleive that God sent Jesus to bring people to Him, to rescue people from sin.
Although Muslims focus on Muhammad, Christians focus on Jesus.
Jesus, however, is not just a messenger, but is the visible manifestation of the Invisible God, even before God placed him in the womb of Mary. There are any accounts in the Scriptures of a man, who Christians believe is Jesus.

Doesnt this suggest that Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) was a messenger of God:-

"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know." (Acts 2:22)

What the bible says above seems to be the same as the fundamental belief of muslims about Jesus (peace be upon him) and other prophets.

Edited February 15, 2012 by BlackWave

**Son of Placid** · February 15, 2012

We are all sinners because Adam ate a fruit?

Not at all what I said.

You can't say that the fruit itself was a sin because God doesn't create sin we create it so you can only say that the action of eating the fruit was a sin so the argument remains and even Christians don't say the fruit itself was a sin.

Never said the fruit itself was a sin.

If their nakedness is interpreted as shame then where did the leaves covering their private parts come from?

Where did the leaves come from? Probably a tree...

BillyJo · February 15, 2012

Not at all what I said.
Never said the fruit itself was a sin.
Where did the leaves come from? Probably a tree...

That's exactly what you said

he sin was eating the forbidden fruit and it looks like Adam was never forgiven, therefore we're all sinners.

You mentioned it

I believe that the forbidden fruit actually contained something impure which caused a physical change in their bodies

As for the last question please be serious it says the leaves covered their private parts and you said Christians interpret nakedness as shame so explain please

**Son of Placid** · February 16, 2012

Ahh, I see what you're talking about, but note I started this with "The common story" So yeah, I mentioned it because it's mainstream Christian but don't call them "my words" please.

I wanted to give you the basic Christian concept which I learned since childhood, and what I've gathered thru my own studies since. It's okay if you don't believe either.

This is how it reads... Gen 2:17 is God talking to Adam before Eve.

17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Verse 25 is after Eve was created and their life together before the big day.

25And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Note it says they were naked and not ashamed.

Gen 3 starts with Iblis in the serpent's form.

2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Obviously Adam relayed the info to Eve.

4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil 6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. 7And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

The sin was in the eating of the fruit because they were told not to, but I believe something more happened for them to notice their nakedness, and shame made them try to hide it.

8And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. 9And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? 10And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. 11And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

God asked, "Who told you that you were naked?" then answered with another question because God knew what the fruit would do to them.

16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

This is where God explains what life will become for them. (Assuming the pure body had no pain during childbirth) This part is still a bit of a mystery to me because there is no record that Eve had given birth before this point, but there are hints throughout that there were other people living on the earth elsewhere. God also mentions them returning to dust, which is to remind them there is death ahead for both of them.

21Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

It was God giving them coats made of skins that makes me believe this physical change was permanent. The Quran also mentions that Adam was forgiven but he also died as God said they would.

So it's not so much the Christians that interpret nakedness as shame, it's because it's written... Before, naked and were not ashamed. After, noticed their nakedness and hid.

Paul mentions in Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. As much as Christians believe the reasoning behind this verse was Adam's fault, it's not related. It simply means we've all sinned, and we all have.

The term born into sin doesn't mean born a sinner because even David was said to have been "brought forth in iniquity" (Psalms something, something.) David himself says something to the effect of conceived in sin, but it's not so hard to believe that his mother was a sinner, (at some point in her life).

Hopefully I cleared up the confusion I caused. Sorry, the "Where did the leaves come from" was too hard to resist.

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