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In the Name of God بسم الله
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.InshAllah.

Muslim Terrorism

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Islamophobic nutcases argue that 'Islamic terrorism' is the single biggest threat to Western countries. Yet according to Europol data, Islamist terrorist attacks accounted for only 0.4% of the attacks in Europe between 2006 and 2008. Most terrorist attacks were carried out by separatist and Left-Wing groups. For example, this is the table of attacks for 2008:

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More here: http://www.loonwatch...rism-in-europe/

What's more, according to data from the FBI's official website, Islamist terrorist attacks accounted for only 6% of attacks in the US between 1980 and 2005, although the percentage of victims was greater because of 9/11. Jewish extremists accounted for 7% of terrorist attacks!

More here: http://www.loonwatch...ts-are-muslims/

LoonWatch is an awesome site - I recommend it

Edited by .InshAllah.

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Ahh loonwatch, t'was once my refuge from that rambling baboon people call 'Robert Spencer'.

For the uncultured youth of America today, this website serves a great purpose for dispelling all the cliche polemics that have no scholarly value whatsoever. The question remains though: is the authentic knowledge of Islam being propagated effectively? Only time will tell.

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I don't think its "Muslim" or "Islamic" terrorism. Its more "Islamist terrorism" or "Islamist extremist terrorism".

I think the numbers are in line with what one would think. I don't think it either proves or disproves the fact that islamist terrorist groups are a threat.

For example, the actual report defines seperatists as: "Ethno-nationalist and separatist terrorist groups,such as Euskadi ta Askatasuna (ETA) or Basque Fatherland and Liberty, seek international re- cognition and political self-determination. They are motivated by nationalism, ethnicity and/or religion."

These groups are already located in the country they're attacking. They can garner a huge support base (people can often get very emotive about national identity or maltreatment) and they have a large population to draw people from. The basque region has a population of 3 million alone. What would you estimate the number of hard-line, ultra conservative muslims who advoate terror and cuurrently live in the France to be? I doubt it would barely crack the thousands...and even that is a very very high, overinflated number. Some terrorists come from outside the country (eg 9/11), even if they originate in that country, they would make up a very small percentage of the population, so kind of a no brainer the number of attacks are lower, having less people and all.

It's also being a bit too selective. I'm sure you can find countries without internal (violent and terroristic) seperatist movements. EG, USA/Australia/Ect. In these countries, even one attack by islamic terrorists would skew the results and you could claim something like "75% of attacks in the country are by Islamic terrorists!!!". It's all about how you present the numbers.

If you look at the arrests for belgium for example 17 out of 22 arrests were Islamic terrorists. That's 77%! I'm just trying to illustrate how you can use numbers to show pretty much whatever you're trying to show. In sweden and the netherlands, 100% of all arrests were of islamic variant of terrorists (2009 report).

Thats just the number of attacks as well. If you had an almost army sized group of people, 500 people, carry out an attack twice, it would only be listed as 2. This is assuming they dont get captured before they carry it out. I think the number of arrested people (arrested in both planning and carrying it out) is more telling. Also, i don't really mind if they capture them before they attack. Good. The police are doing their job. I think everyone is much more concerned with how many attacks are successful, how much collateral and human damage is caused, lives lost, ect.

On this front the report has this to say: "In 2008, 187 people were arrested on suspicion of Islamist terrorism. The majority of arrests took place in France and Spain.Arrested suspects had a variety ofbackgrounds, including North African, South Asian, Turkish and also European"

The following is probably worthy of mention as well: "There were no further Islamist terrorist attacks within the EU during 2008. However, there are clear indications that a range of activities related to Islamist terrorism took place during 2008. This was demonstrated by several arrests related to attack planning activities by law enforcement authorities in Spain, Belgium, France and other countries."

I agree though, the threat is overblown. Largely because of what i mentioned above, there really aren't all that many extremists living or operating in these countries. It's not like theres hordes of them just hanging around, playing cards, just itching for the right time to attack. If there isn't all that many operatives, it makes sense there isn't all that many attacks. I think this in combination with the successes of the intelligence and police forces in arresting people before these attacks happen keep the threat low. Obviously, even one attack, one loss of even one innocent persons life is one too many and no government wants a terrorist attack on their soil but it is a bit under the threat the common scared person seems to think it is. There are plenty who realise it isn't as big as they previously thought though.

It works for the media though, it gets viewers and readers. I'm not American and the media there seems a little more biased and prone to using fear here. It's almost sickly sweet and bitter at the same time. You have very sweet breakfast programs (from the very few i've seen) then you have some very scarey (20/20 i think it might be called) type stuff. We don't have things nearly as contrasting here. So, i think people are more scared of it than they should be. At the same time. like i said, one attack is one too many and the number of arrests shows it still is going on, right now. There is still a risk, especially considering just how many arrests were made. It said they made 187 arrests, lets assume 5 terrorists per terror attack, thats 37 attacks if they were successful and thank God they were foiled. Imagine how much blood would of been shed if those 37 were successful?

So, its still a risk but probably not as big as everyone thinks, especially in combination with proactive policing.

I think the actual report itself is worth a read rather than just that guys summary.

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If only the average joe knew what is written below and knew that the average muslim was not only neutral but against and vigilant of terrorism, i think it would change his view of muslims and Islam.

Among the large population of second generation Muslim immigrants in the European Union, some individuals and groups of individuals have proven vulnerable to recruitment and radicalisation. For some time, there have

been indications of connections between UK based supporters of violent jihad and their counterparts in Pakistan.

Information from member states and open sources indicates that the role of mosques in the radicalisation and recruitment of Islamist terrorists is declining. This is due, to a large part, to the fact that Muslim communities have become more vigilant and willing to confront extremism.

Although some mosques continue to be used for radicalisation,

Islamist terrorist recruitment efforts have largely been driven underground, with little overt propagation and recruitment now occurring at mosques. The main players in Islamist terrorist recruitment are no longer ‘radical imams’, but ‘activists’, i.e. members of terrorist cells acting outside the organisational framework of mosques. Prisons and other places in which individuals are likely to be vulnerable, lack orientation or experience personal crises (‘places of vulnerability’) continue to be a cause of concern.

Edited by kingpomba

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I think the numbers are in line with what one would think. I don't think it either proves or disproves the fact that islamist terrorist groups are a threat.

I wasn't attempting to show that there is no threat, but that the threat is exaggerated. I'm glad that you agree with this.

It's also being a bit too selective. I'm sure you can find countries without internal (violent and terroristic) seperatist movements. EG, USA/Australia/Ect. In these countries, even one attack by islamic terrorists would skew the results and you could claim something like "75% of attacks in the country are by Islamic terrorists!!!". It's all about how you present the numbers.

If you look at the arrests for belgium for example 17 out of 22 arrests were Islamic terrorists. That's 77%! I'm just trying to illustrate how you can use numbers to show pretty much whatever you're trying to show. In sweden and the netherlands, 100% of all arrests were of islamic variant of terrorists (2009 report).

I agree that we have to be careful with statistics, and that a small and selective sample is more likely to give skewed results. But the data here isnt small and selective but covers Europe and US.

This is assuming they dont get captured before they carry it out. I think the number of arrested people (arrested in both planning and carrying it out) is more telling.

The Europol numbers include foiled attacks as well as successful ones.

Edited by .InshAllah.

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I think its mainly more just some abstract notion of fear rather than an actual pinned down fear. Like being afraid of the dark..its kind of abstract, you're more afraid of what could be in the dark but you can't really pin down what that is.

Same with terrorism. I like to think almost everyone is a good person, the reason they're afraid of terrorism is the same reason they're afraid of getting robbed or stabbed, its just plain scarey. I don't think it has much to do with the actual fact that its muslims or not, for a lot of people anyway. I'm sure people are just as afraid of nationalist groups.

I also think that a little more understanding goes a long was as well. I dont think, on a deep level, most people actually believe all muslims are terrorists. I think its more the fact just that they think they're not wholly against it, as bad as that thought sounds too. If people knew a lot of mosques were reporting these guys to the police and the mosques did a better job of catching terrorists than they could ever do, they would feel a lot better about it.

Back to the fear of the unknown. Its a natural kind of human thing. It probably doesnt help the fact that most muslims look and act a little differently to a lot of westerners are use to. I think though, if everyone could just meet one muslim and realise they're not as bad as you think, they're just like you, it would change a lot of people.

I remember before i met any muslims, i had this kind of ethereal abstract notion of what a muslim would be like. I didn't know very much, so, its not like i was actually against them or anything, it was more just a muddy image. I like to think most people don't believe all muslims are "evil" its more just a case of a muddy image. I had something like this for awhile untill i ( i dont know the term the rest of the world uses, so , ill just use the USA term that i think is what everyone else would call it) interned for a small company for a couple weeks. They only had about 4 workers, boss included, so i got to know everyone really well. People often say look at the belief not the believers but i think the believers play a tremendous role, especially if you are easily identifiable as a believer (eg hijab). This guy took breaks to pray, so, i obviously realised he was a muslim, along with the arab name. While we were working, i got talking to him and he told me about his family, he seemed normal just like anyone else, regular old wife and kids. Very nice guy as well, even offered to buy me lunch a couple of times. This left a pretty big impact on me, especially how kind he was as well. I never did much of this work before and i made a few mistakes and he was very calm about it. So, i think if a lot of those people who are afraid simply because of muddy vision read things like that or met your average, normal, moderate muslim, they wouldn't nearly be as afraid (this is before i knew anything at all about Islam, by in large anyway).

IF more people get exposed to something like this i think they'll realise muslims are just like anyone else. You have some very nice people, a lot of just nice people and some that are not so nice at all. A statement like that though could apply to any religion or the general community. Obviously, it probably helps if they're more exposed to the nice ones first...

Edited by kingpomba

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I remember before i met any muslims, i had this kind of ethereal abstract notion of what a muslim would be like. I didn't know very much, so, its not like i was actually against them or anything, it was more just a muddy image. I like to think most people don't believe all muslims are "evil" its more just a case of a muddy image.

Thanks for letting us know that you're a xenophobic ethnocentric maniac.

I'm glad no Muslims think like you because of "media image".

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Kingpomba, eventhough I disagree with most of your posts, I appreciate you not being an Islamophobe or extremist and shallow atheist. It's a shame that the most vocal atheists don't share your perspective

Haha, i hate those guys, richard dawkins and the like. I use to think like them a long time ago but i realised it was a very bad way to go about it and very hypocritical as well. They're a little too extreme and definitely too preachy, which is exactly the kind of thing i rejected except they were doing it too.

It's the same reason i'm an agnostic atheist rather than an atheist. I don't totally deny the possibility of a God existing (not any specific god, just the concept), its just that i believe the arguments against most of the reasonable Gods i've encountered are a lot more stronger than those in favour. Only a fool would say they 100% know that God doesn't exist and truely believe this when they can't prove it (even richard dawkins doesn't go this far, its probably more of a philosophical notion though). I realised i was indulging in the same thing i was actually trying to move away from, totally accepting something 100% without strong or any proof (in my case christianity in highschool).

I know some people who actually go around unsolicited and just talk to people about religion. One for instance just randomly out of nowhere starts telling his friend why he's believing the wrong thing in strong terms, his friend. Another went to a bar mitzva pretty much to only challenge the rabbi, he took this poor rabbi by surprise and forced him to defend himself out of nowhere. Not like either of them wanted a conversation on it but they made them anyway. Thats definitely something i'm against.

Making TV programs and books is less harmless i guess, people can always switch off but by being confrontational in that fashion, thats pretty bad.

You got your religion, i got my lack there-of. I don't know about in other countries but its largely a private thing here. You can believe and practice whatever you want long as it doesn't limit anyone elses freedom or hurt anyone, one ought to have the freedom to do that, after all it is a natural freedom. Thats my philosophy anyway.

Even though i'm not a believer i still defend religion and the right for people to practice the above. I knew a guy who was publically telling people and muslims that their religion was poisonous and they were all terrorists and it limits everyones freedom. I'm not a muslim but i still set him straight (or at least tried to...kind of snowballed).

It's obvious its possible for everyone to live side by side as neighbours. It's worked in a lot of places with lots of immigrants like Australia and Canada for instance. If everyone was only a little more friendly and inquisitve the world would be a little better hey.

I think you'll find as either believers or non believers mature in age and gain more education they definitely become a lot less extreme and full of acid. Haha, i think the vocal atheist thing is a minority but they've obviously noticed most since their vocal. Same with other religious groups, whoever can shout the loudest and a lot of the time the most confrontational or hurtful thing gets the most time. Like the westboro baptist church, they have like...20 members and they've got way more air-time and discussion than any other church who goes out and feeds the homeless. I guess moderates just aren't very exciting.

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It's obvious you're ever so respectful, i'm sure this a very unsual deviation from your otherwise polite manner of repeatedly referring to me and other people as "stupid" and "retarded" and ever so politely telling Ugly Jinn to "go play with his balls".

Thanks for letting us know that you're a xenophobic ethnocentric maniac.

Yeah, at the tender old age of 15 when what i described happened i was already an A grade hater, i was grand dragon of the KKK by then (even though it doesn't exist here, see how much of a hater i am).

Despite me telling you all contrary, i was obviously lying, trying to conceal just how much hate i have. I wasn't just simply lacking in knowledge and thinking people were neither bad nor good. Hell no, i was hating on that like a professional. You got me. Want a medal now or later?

I didn't think i would get caught so soon either. I only come on this forum to hate on everyone, definitely not because i'm interested...want to learn or have a good debate. If you look at my posts its hidden in a secret code...

/Sarcasm

Maybe you're a little ticked off because we disagreed in the Iran thread but this isn't the respectful or right way to behave. If you plan to follow me around the forum and bash me in every thread i make from now on, at least leave this one alone. It's a fond memory of mine, how about you wait a little to build the suspense so you can really crush it properly? Thats what i recommend anyway.

If that isn't your intention at least be polite, mature and reasonable when you talk to people. A little goes a long way..

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