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In the Name of God بسم الله

Homosexual Muslims

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Incest is a difficult one as although both parties are consenting adults, the children of such unions who may be born with genetic defects certainly are not. Incest has also been called the only universal taboo as it became clear to human societies pretty early on that exogamic alliances maintained healthier populations than endogamic ones. Just look at the plethora of genetic defects found in the Ashekenazi Jewish community.

your argument about genetic defects is not any stronger than the arguments that we give about AIDS (GRIDS) Gay Related Immune Defiecincy Syndrome

gays and thier supporters will be so quick to argue that , use protection , adopt kids ,,,, Cant incest criminals also use protection and adopt kids???

arnt they both consenting adults

being gay is not any nicer that comitting the crime of incest

having a gay inclination is some thing that is to a certain level in every man but that feeling will either grow or diminish depending on what you feed yourself

if you hate sin and knwo very well thats its one of the ugliest sins to commit sodomy then you will start to puke at the idea ,,, thats hwo i feel i would puke and get sick in the stomach of the idea of a man having sex with another man just the same way i would puke of hearing about a man having sex with his sister or mother think about it .

if you have some femenine feelings you dont need to lie to yourself and say " i am a female" because you are not you are a male

as for the natural argument what does natural mean ?

that people do it all the time ???

murder is also natural then

It is against they're will, they're not able to fully will for it or consent. Their mind is not fully capable of willing.

They're also very vunerable and easily manipulated, almost all the time, the child has been manipulated into thinking its alright or been pushed into it out of sheer terorr.

If you're trying to argue there are all these children out there who actually wanted to be molested, you are a disgusting human being.

I hope you realise no child wants this.

brother jawzofdeth also argues that studies proved a huge percentage of gays were turned gayism and introduced to it at a yougn age by being abused against thier consent

and i todl you that incest is not against the consent of the adults so do you dare condone incest because it holds exactly the same arguments as the homosexuality

1) incest consenting adults

2) gays conseting adults

3) incest harmful if you breed

4) gays is a cutting off the generations and is harmful if you commit the ugly act as you have a huge possibility of contracting HIV GRIDS . Gays argue against by saying use protection and adopt kids

5) incest has the harms of teh genetic diseases and they can also argue the exact same gay argument " use protection and adopt kids"

.

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(bismillah) Even if homosexuality is a "natural process", as so many corrupt people in the west say it is, does that make it OK? Lets expand the theory a little - if people are "born" as homosexuals,

Homosexuality, like heterosexuality and bisexuality, is an act. To define one's entire ontological status--one's entire being in this world--around sexual acts is a disservice to yourself and mankind

and as for the denying and being lonely part, there are many trials different people go through (in my opinion), for example lets say I want to get married all my life and no one wants to marry me (wh

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Incest is a difficult one as although both parties are consenting adults, the children of such unions who may be born with genetic defects certainly are not. Incest has also been called the only universal taboo as it became clear to human societies pretty early on that exogamic alliances maintained healthier populations than endogamic ones. Just look at the plethora of genetic defects found in the Ashekenazi Jewish community.

As for homosexuality it certainly is natural and is widely observed in the animal kingdom. Evolutionarily speaking, societies engaged in same-sex activity in order to strengthen same-sex alliances in activities such as hunting and co-operative defense for males or co-operative child-rearing for females. Not that its necessary, but that's how it has worked historically. Exclusive or romantic homosexuality is still a puzzle; although the co-existence of hetero and homosexual acts may have been beneficial in some societies, absolutely none have ever practiced exclusive homosexuality. I agree with some that posit that the division and labeling of homosexual vs heterosexual as distinctive identities is a modern phenomenon, due to our obsession with binary opposites. So all these arguments that homosexuality is forbidden because it's a 'sin against nature' or because its detrimental to society are absolutely wrong. Truth is, we actual don't have any scientific, historical, evolutionary or anthropological evidence to back up its prohibition.

None of that however, negates the fact that homosexual acts, NOT homosexuality itself (how on earth would a God hold a sexual attraction you have no control over against you?) are sinful in Islam. It just means that so far, all we have is that God says so. So maybe as muslims we should just hold up our hands and accept that we believe God knows best, even though the reason may not be yet clear to us, instead of using false analogies and misrepresenting scientific data.

I personally think being born with homosexual inclinations is a test. I've always been strongly attracted to the same sex, and always will be. Since reverting back to Islam, every day has been a constant struggle and a lesson in self-discipline. I'm lucky in enough to also be attracted to the opposite sex, so thank God at least I can have a semblance of a normal life. Many muslims who are exclusively attracted to the same sex aren't as lucky.

I wonder how the people so quick to judge others would feel if they were faced with a lifetime of celibacy. I've met pious, devout and exemplary muslims who have put all their faith in God and accepted this fate. Who have such iman that they have put aside all hope of ever being sexually satisfied in this lifetime. Yet instead of being helped and supported by their communities, they are called unnatural, cast out and ostracized, all for sexual inclinations that they make clear THEY DO NOT WANT TO ACT UPON! How can people who go through so much hardship all for the love of God not be incredibly dear to him?

This is heart-breaking. As a community, it's our duty to recognize and support people who struggle with this, instead of parroting bigoted views that only serve to further demonize those among us that are struggling and in need of help and guidance, leading many to leave Islam altogether. I'm not advocating that they have coming out parties or that there inclinations be a cause for celebration, but that if we are ever put in a position where someone comes to us desperate and in need of support we show kindness and understanding for what is going to be for them an incredibly difficult time.

Just read my post back and realised I hadn't even mentioned the lack of romance and emotional intimacy these people will have to struggle with for the rest of their lives.

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Just read my post back and realised I hadn't even mentioned the lack of romance and emotional intimacy these people will have to struggle with for the rest of their lives.

and as for the denying and being lonely part, there are many trials different people go through (in my opinion), for example lets say I want to get married all my life and no one wants to marry me (whether it be permanent marriage or temporary [Mutah]), then I too, even though I am straight, would not be able to act on my desires,and would be "lonely" all my life as all the other ways of acting on my desires would be haram i.e. committing sex outside of marraige, masturbation etc..

however the reason why I personally wouldnt see it as being lonely, is because I would acknowledge that when I die I would get a reward in return for this "loneliness" that I went through, sure I may not have asked for it, however God knows better than us, I am sure that if you did believe in heaven and hell, and you were either straight or gay but never managed to get a partner (either due to someone not wanting to marry you [straight] or it being haram [gay]) and you acknowledged that God would reward you with something massive in return, then even if you did mind, after you died and got that massive reward you would be happy.

Our 5th Imam, Imam al-Baqir (as) says that if man knew the reward he got for going through difficulties and hardships he would cut himself into small pieces.

Or in this case instead of the lonely part, you could apply it to the lack of intimacy and romance part.

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I can imagine how hard it must be and it's easier said than done, however I would like to contribute.

Angels have intellect and no emotion, animals have emotion and no intellect.

So what's special about the human being? He has both!

If your intellect overtakes your emotion then you become higher than the angels, and if your emotion overtakes your intellect then you become lower than the animals.

And Imam Hussain a.s showed us beautifully how it is done in Karbala. Hence the saying "Every day is Ashura, Every land is Karbala"

Have you ever seen pain like that of Hussain a.s?

Look at Imam Hussain a.s and the person in question will know what to do

If one understands his worth as a human being and the gift that Allah swt has given us, many difficulties will be over come Inshallah

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It is against they're will, they're not able to fully will for it or consent. Their mind is not fully capable of willing.

They're also very vunerable and easily manipulated, almost all the time, the child has been manipulated into thinking its alright or been pushed into it out of sheer terorr.

If you're trying to argue there are all these children out there who actually wanted to be molested, you are a disgusting human being.

I hope you realise no child wants this.

Are you able to comprehend simple english?

As far as I'm concerned your reply was an obvious copout due to not being able to reply to the rebuttal directly.

Weak.

Edited by JawzofDETH
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having a gay inclination is some thing that is to a certain level in every man but that feeling will either grow or diminish depending on what you feed yourself

What are you on about here man? You can't be serious. Every man has a certain gay inclination. To be honest, this is the first time hearing it. Why do you think this? What's your proof?

if you hate sin and knwo very well thats its one of the ugliest sins to commit sodomy then you will start to puke at the idea ,,, thats hwo i feel i would puke and get sick in the stomach of the idea of a man having sex with another man just the same way i would puke of hearing about a man having sex with his sister or mother think about it .

I would say most of feel disgusted at both incest and homosexuality, but why is this the case? Is it simply because we feel it's wrong, or is it more to do with "Being attracted to my mom/sister feels disgusting to me, and therefore I am disgusted at the idea of it in general....". In the same way, we feel disgusted with the idea of being attracted to same gender, so we are disgusted by homosexuality all together.

Since it feels wrong FOR US TO DO, we feel it's wrong for others. Right? But what if a sister and brother were attracted to each other? Is it their fault? Should we hate them for it? We are disgusted at it because it feels wrong for us to do. It feels very disgusting and just wrong for us to do. But we have that sense that makes us feel that way for ourselves.

We are attracted to opposite gender - so - we naturally are disgusted by the idea of being attracted to same gender. We think about it - and it feels wrong for us to be attracted to same gender. That's because it is wrong for us. But is it wrong for every single person?

When someone is mentally ill, and does some wrong things, would you hold him to account by the same standard as a sane person?

Something I also noticed, is that guys tend to find man to man disgusting, but woman to woman (lesbianism) not just "ok" but "hot". Why is that? It's because when it comes to guys, guys relate it to themselves and are disgusted by the idea. Yet being attracted to women is found "hot", even if it's another women. (I'm not talking about it being felt right or wrong, I'm talking about being disgusted by it.)

This sort of supports the possibility I mentioned, that it's really how we feel about ourselves with each of these, which are wrong and disgusting by our senses. But is it universal? We are use to the idea that everything that is wrong for us to do is wrong for others. This how we think. But is it decisive proof?

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Salaam

Mystic

What differentiates the males from females is certain levels of chemicals right?

Some males are more feminine than others. This means all males could have a certain level of feminine attributes. If the nurish it then it will flourish and hence the button line is the choice not the external factors.

Regarding moral relativism the incest was a good example . I believe in absolute moralism not relative. All humans have attraction to the opposite gender so there is nothing instinctive that I know of which would repal humans from incest apart from the self indoctrination please correct this if am wrong.

So whoever is committs incest or sodomy is to blame for what they fed themselves which lead to Thier state

We can also argue that bad people are diseased and mislead by god so why blame them? It's because they obtained the disease due to bad actions and god mislead them due to bad actions like the pride of Satan or selfishness or jealousy

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Salam ...

sorry if im repeating any thisg ... i did not see any one mention Iran allow a man to be a women, and sceintificley, if you do not have a Y chromozone i think it is... then your dna say your a women.

Allah says in Al Quran, I can give you a son or a daughter, or somthing thats neither a somn or a daughter.

Still ignorent people will never under stand, the take a chicken and for 100.000nz of years peaple use to clean it, coock it and eat it. Today you make briyani korma kabab ect ect... so if the meet go in you you accept change? yet the poor person who has to live with his self (meat) is not allowed to be changed?

never mind, Iyatollah Khomeeni give fatwa to allow sex change, so Iran is the only country in the world to re issue a birth citificate aftersex change.

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I have a question regarding the nature vs. nurtur debate in the homosexual paradigm from an Islamic perspective. If homosexuality were natural and innate, meaning that is something which cannot be control, then it would not be haram? Islamic teachings clearly denounce homosexuality but if it were natural and apparent upon birth then how can Allah swt punish someone for an urge that he gave them. Thus, can we say that Islam implies that homosexuality is not innate?

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Homosexuality is a natural process. Nobody can be forced to be a homosexual. For example a wet dream cannot be stopped at any cost. When it happens, it happens. I want to know that how a homosexual person should lead his life? Because a homosexual would have the same feelings when he sees a man of his choice, like a girl. I want to know what does Islam says about a person who's sexual orientation is "Gay" i.e he likes, loves men. Its not necessary that every homosexual is a sex freak.

Brothers and sisters please help me to resolve my query in the light of Ahadees of Ahlebait (a.s)

Brother, if you ever want to go to a religion that has leaders that are inclined to other men/boys, then the other sect is a pretty good choice.

As far as Shee'ahs, our view is clear, do mut'ah with women and enjoy. The last thing that needs to be done is homosexuality. Heck, if I knew my brother in Islaam was going the other way, I would try to hook him up with a woman, in mut'ah for a couple of hours, to set him straight. That's called true amr bil ma'roof and nahy an al-munkar. Nothing wrong with it. If he enjoys her, then he could become straight again. Wallaahu 'Alam

Assalaamu 'Alaykum,

Aboo 'Abd Allaah

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is it possible for a homosexual person to have love towards the opposite gender?

by this i do not mean lustful urges. what i mean is that when you get married you slowly grow an attatchment to your wife. you care for her and love her. can a homosexual person love the opposite gender? the closest kind of "love" i can think of to this is the love towards a family member

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Are you seriously comparing homosexuality to ... rape?

The last three things are offenses inflicted by one person onto another against their will and this is quiet clearly wrong.

Homosexuals don't inflict their homosexuality onto others against their will. It's quite clearly a different belief.

The last three are crimes against other unwilling people and are quite clearly wrong, independant of a lot of belief systems. These crimes against other unwilling people who have been deprived of their liberty to act how they like personally should be punished by the state.

However, wheres the crime in someone being homosexual against no choice of their own? They don't hurt other people with it. They don't inflict things unto other people unwillingly, its carried out between adults who know whats going on and consent. Where’s the obvious crime? Is this really as bad as depriving someone else of their liberty and inflicting adverse conditions onto them against their will? Quite clearly not.

You missed the point... completely.

Those were three examples. Let me give you more.

What about incest? It's uncommon but not non-existent and is also illegal in most (all?) countries. People are born with tendencies to sleep with their own family members. Watchya gonna do about it?

Also, bestiality. Animals will enjoy intimate behavior with species and non-species because at the end of the day they're animals and there are not many things more enjoyable to them than copulation. You have their 'required consent' which is what I believe is your criterion for something to be legal and morally OK. You're keeping everyone happy (with the added bonus of being environmentally friendly since you're keeping animals happy too) and you now have a blank cheque to do whatever you think is best.

Oh and let us not forget the fundamental problem that has been marring the Western society for decades; under-age sex. 18 is just a number. Kids can mature long before that age mentally (or conversely not have any sense of direction even years after they become 18). The only thing that's stopping them are state laws. Maybe soon we can have a bill that grants children with high IQs and good grades 'the right' of choosing their own sexual partner. That'll spare parents the trouble of forcing their kids to study too. Brilliant!

As for the argument that animals show homosexual behavior too, it's the flimsiest, stupidest, dumbest argument in favor of homosexuality I've ever heard. Animals will engage in intercourse whenever they want, with whoever they want and in whatever way they want for the reason given above. If you've also failed to notice, animals also run around naked and fight like hell for territorial rights. Some animals also show cannibalism. Oh and I've personally seen a chimpanzee pee into another one's mouth in a zoo. It is ultimately our choice if we want to act like sane humans, or like animals.

(salam)

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You missed the point... completely.

Those were three examples. Let me give you more.

What about incest? It's uncommon but not non-existent and is also illegal in most (all?) countries. People are born with tendencies to sleep with their own family members. Watchya gonna do about it?

Also, bestiality. Animals will enjoy intimate behavior with species and non-species because at the end of the day they're animals and there are not many things more enjoyable to them than copulation. You have their 'required consent' which is what I believe is your criterion for something to be legal and morally OK. You're keeping everyone happy (with the added bonus of being environmentally friendly since you're keeping animals happy too) and you now have a blank cheque to do whatever you think is best.

Incest is illegal? Last I checked, in many countries people can marry close relatives. Maybe Islam is strict on how they define incest though. Animals often do not have sex for pleasure, so you wouldnt necessarily be making them happy. And of course many animals do not have a mind like we do. Most animals wouldnt even realize what they were doing at all. Also, attraction amongst gays is far more common, for obvious reasons, than cross species sex. And even further, cross genus sex. So, you cant really justify the comparison of homosexuality to beastiality.

Oh and let us not forget the fundamental problem that has been marring the Western society for decades; under-age sex. 18 is just a number. Kids can mature long before that age mentally (or conversely not have any sense of direction even years after they become 18). The only thing that's stopping them are state laws. Maybe soon we can have a bill that grants children with high IQs and good grades 'the right' of choosing their own sexual partner. That'll spare parents the trouble of forcing their kids to study too. Brilliant!

Thats not a fundamental problem? Thats called protecting young women. Is this not a law in other countries too? What kind of country allows a 13 year old to consent to sex? A girl so young that she knows nothing about life...and yet she is supposed to be wise enough to make choices about having children of her own? haha. Any country with such a law is probably dooming its future generation. Either that or bringing itself toward poverty due to having too many kids and not having money to take care of even more. Parents can only handle so much.

As for the argument that animals show homosexual behavior too, it's the flimsiest, stupidest, dumbest argument in favor of homosexuality I've ever heard. Animals will engage in intercourse whenever they want, with whoever they want and in whatever way they want for the reason given above. If you've also failed to notice, animals also run around naked and fight like hell for territorial rights. Some animals also show cannibalism. Oh and I've personally seen a chimpanzee pee into another one's mouth in a zoo. It is ultimately our choice if we want to act like sane humans, or like animals.

(salam)

Animals also fight like hell for territorial rights? haha, doesnt that sound familiar :P. I could cut on the news and see that in humans right now. Animals engage in cross species/genus sex far less than homosexual sex.

The point here though...is that animals practice homosexual acts, demonstrating that there are natural interests that some have in the same sex. And that there is nothing inherently evil about it. Its just how animals were made. And for those who recognize that humanity is a species of animal as well...understands that homosexual humans too, are not inherently evil, nor is following their naturally given interests, evil either.

If it were truly a sin to have sex with people whom you were created to have interest in, then indeed, it would be torture. If God were to create a homosexual person, then to forbid them to have sex or they would burn for eternity. Imagine if you a male and couldnt have sex with a female, or you would burn for eternity.

Doesnt sound very merciful to me.

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If it were truly a sin to have sex with people whom you were created to have interest in, then indeed, it would be torture. If God were to create a homosexual person, then to forbid them to have sex or they would burn for eternity. Imagine if you a male and couldnt have sex with a female, or you would burn for eternity. Doesnt sound very merciful to me.

There are many trials different people go through (in my opinion), for example lets say I want to get married all my life and no one wants to marry me (whether it be permanent marriage or temporary [Mutah]), then I too, even though I am straight, would not be able to act on my desires,and would be "lonely" all my life as all the other ways of acting on my desires would be haram i.e. committing sex outside of marraige, masturbation etc..

however the reason why I personally wouldnt see it as being lonely, is because I would acknowledge that when I die I would get a reward in return for this "loneliness" that I went through, sure I may not have asked for it, however God knows better than us, I am sure that if you did believe in heaven and hell, and you were either straight or gay but never managed to get a partner (either due to someone not wanting to marry you [straight] or it being haram [gay]) and you acknowledged that God would reward you with something massive in return, then even if you did mind, after you died and got that massive reward you would be happy.

This post was to someone else saying about how someone would be "lonely" so just change that to someone going through "torture" for it to make more sense in the context of me quoting you.

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There are many trials different people go through (in my opinion), for example lets say I want to get married all my life and no one wants to marry me (whether it be permanent marriage or temporary [Mutah]), then I too, even though I am straight, would not be able to act on my desires,and would be "lonely" all my life as all the other ways of acting on my desires would be haram i.e. committing sex outside of marraige, masturbation etc..

however the reason why I personally wouldnt see it as being lonely, is because I would acknowledge that when I die I would get a reward in return for this "loneliness" that I went through, sure I may not have asked for it, however God knows better than us, I am sure that if you did believe in heaven and hell, and you were either straight or gay but never managed to get a partner (either due to someone not wanting to marry you [straight] or it being haram [gay]) and you acknowledged that God would reward you with something massive in return, then even if you did mind, after you died and got that massive reward you would be happy.

The problem here is, nobody really knows anything about these "trials", or why God supposedly uses them. And often muslims say "God knows better than us". That just sounds like an excuse. "Well, I dont know, God did it!". And thats that.

So, if that is the ultimate answer to explain why people suffer in life "well, i dont know, God did it", then it is what it is. But i cant imagine too many people would be settled with this answer.

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Our sexuality and the way our hormones work along with how our brain functions are really just mysteries to us... there are rules, yes. there are reasons for these rules, yes. but its really hard to deny that homosexually is NOT a natural thing because in some cases of transvestite people it is God who create them this way. When a male is born into a male body but his frontal lobe operates as a women's brain, this is a mystery. Maybe we are not suppose to understand everything.. maybe we are not suppose to say YES or NO.. this is not our job to judge its only our job as people to guide, no matter who u are.

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Everything has to do with the wiring of the brain. What if homosexuals have a slightly different wiring - maybe some sort of faulty gene that makes them born homosexual?

This has not been scientifically proven yet. And if this were true, then why would Allah swt punish homosexuals because they nervous system is wired differently than the norm. This is a question I posed earlier, according to Islam is homosexuality more environmental and personal decisions rather than anatomical?

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Also, bestiality. Animals will enjoy intimate behavior with species and non-species because at the end of the day they're animals and there are not many things more enjoyable to them than copulation. You have their 'required consent' which is what I believe is your criterion for something to be legal and morally OK. You're keeping everyone happy (with the added bonus of being environmentally friendly since you're keeping animals happy too) and you now have a blank cheque to do whatever you think is best.

Salams. That animals enjoy being sexually abused is not an established fact that im aware of, so rather than take your word for it youll have to cite some evidence. Animals do not give you permission to sexually use them because they arent cognisant that that is happening, much like a baby or child, so unless it is feeling physical discomfort it is likelyto remain passive. A person could argue that because a child or animal is unaware, abuse is not taking place because it is not experienced as abuse (although if a child grows up and retains a memory or is told of the abuse it can then experience the abuse in a secondary mental/emotional way). But that is before we look at what acts of abuse are doing to the abuser also. Half of the abuse story is the affect of the abusers actions on theselves. What ever we do to abuse, we do to ourselves also. Maybe we have a moral obligation to not abuse or neglect our own welfare by abusing and neglecting the welfare of others.

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The problem here is, nobody really knows anything about these "trials", or why God supposedly uses them. And often muslims say "God knows better than us". That just sounds like an excuse. "Well, I dont know, God did it!". And thats that.

No, the problem here is that you [and I don't mean this in a harsh way - sorry if it comes across as that] dont know (or believe) anything about these trials or why God grants us trials, whereas we as muslims believe there a number of reasons why God grants us trials. For example, so we can overcome them and reach nearer to him, so it can be a means of expiation for our sins (and more reasons)

You're looking at it from a non Islamic point of view, whereas we are talking about muslims who would want to have same sex relations (which is haraam therefore they cant) therefore you have to look at it from an Islamic point of view - which is to be patient and go through the struggle and you will be rewarded in the after life insha'Allah

So, if that is the ultimate answer to explain why people suffer in life "well, i dont know, God did it", then it is what it is. But i cant imagine too many people would be settled with this answer.

Again, you are looking at it from a non Islamic point of view. From an Islamic point of view, the reason why we suffer in this life (as I mentioned above) could be due to a number of reasons for example expiation for our sins, so we reach nearness to God, so our patience increases (and more reasons)

I imagine many if not all muslims would be/are satisfied with the answer that we will be rewarded for our struggles and tests of this life, in the next life

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No, the problem here is that you [and I don't mean this in a harsh way - sorry if it comes across as that] dont know (or believe) anything about these trials or why God grants us trials, whereas we as muslims believe there a number of reasons why God grants us trials. For example, so we can overcome them and reach nearer to him, so it can be a means of expiation for our sins (and more reasons)

You believe you do, but every time an actual discussion is raised on it, no muslim can stand up to the challange. And these discussions have happened a few times in the interfaith area of this site, though I have not seen you participating in them.

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You believe you do, but every time an actual discussion is raised on it, no muslim can stand up to the challange. And these discussions have happened a few times in the interfaith area of this site, though I have not seen you participating in them.

Can you direct me to a few threads please, I'd be interested in reading through.

Yeah I don't participate in the interfaith area much, I have a bit in the past but my knowledge is low so then I end up leaving the discussion cos I have nothing else to add.

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There is nothing 'natural' about it. Just because you have the 'urge' it doesnt mean its legit. Its a perverted form of urge that may need help and guidance, as do other perversions.

People have all sorts of struggle with urges, the idea is to learn to control as oppose to act on them and then justify it as the norm. That is the main problem here.

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Salams. That animals enjoy being sexually abused is not an established fact that im aware of, so rather than take your word for it youll have to cite some evidence. Animals do not give you permission to sexually use them because they arent cognisant that that is happening, much like a baby or child, so unless it is feeling physical discomfort it is likelyto remain passive. A person could argue that because a child or animal is unaware, abuse is not taking place because it is not experienced as abuse (although if a child grows up and retains a memory or is told of the abuse it can then experience the abuse in a secondary mental/emotional way). But that is before we look at what acts of abuse are doing to the abuser also. Half of the abuse story is the affect of the abusers actions on theselves. What ever we do to abuse, we do to ourselves also. Maybe we have a moral obligation to not abuse or neglect our own welfare by abusing and neglecting the welfare of others.

Wait... define 'sexually abused'. So lets suppose a human entering an animal against its will is abuse. However, if the reverse happens, would it still count as abuse?

As for whether animals enjoy it or not is open for debate. Since it'd be inappropriate to discuss the taboo and disgusting topic of bestiality, let's not make this a debate about that. But be assured that both sides have their arguments. If you wish to know about scientific reports and analysis on the issue I'll PM them to you. But I'm not discussing this further here.

(wasalam)

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This post is ridicolous. This shouldnt even be a discussion. Quran and the story of the prophet lut saws make this very clear. Homosexualilty is not something your born with, stop bringing up this topic. If something is haraam it is haraam. no matter how many times you wanna reshape, recreate, relook at it. ITS HARAAM AND YOU WILL GO TO HELL FOR IT. enough said. Allah swt wiped a city out. i think this is more than enough.

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There is a hadith from Imam Sadiq(a.s). Someone asked him(a.s) the difference between angels, humans, and animals.

He(a.s) said, 'Angels were created with intellect(aql) and no desire(hawa), animals were created with desire(hawa) and no intellect(aql).

Humans were created with both intellect(aql) and desire(hawa). So whoever allows his intellect to overcome his desire is higher than the angels and whoever allows his desire overcome his intellect is lower than the animals.' [end of hadith]

So the urge to have a sexual or intimate relationship with a man (that includes things only done with your wife) is from desire (hawa) and not intellect(aql). So whoever lets this desire overcome their intellect (every monotheistic religion says that homosexuality is wrong and against the laws of God and human nature) is lower than the animals. Qualitatively, there is not much of a difference between submitting to this desire and submitting to other haram acts such as adultry and drinking alcohol, except that God destroyed an entire nation (the nation of Lot) for committing this act and the account of this destruction survives in the Quran, the Bible and the Torah up to this day.

Edited by Abu Hadi
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I can't speak for anyone else, but let me tell you about me. Please read the whole thing before passing judgement...you may be surprised.

I was an openly sexually questioning (I say this because I would flip-flop from thinking I was a lesbian to briefly wondering if I was bisexual and back again) young woman for close to ten years. I dated both guys and girls and had intense feelings for both. The only difference is that I would lust over women sexually in a way I wouldn't find myself looking at men all too often.

However, the more I read the Qur'an and discuss God the less sure I am about how I feel about myself. Instead of welcoming those urges I'm finding myself shunning them...which, in a way, makes me sad because it was a part of me I was proud of and really embraced. Now I'm wondering if it was only out of fear of men that I turned to women. This is not the first time I've had this thought, but it's the first time I've ever felt like not being gay actually could be the truth.

I will not pretend to be one of those "ex-gays". Like a very wise poster on the first page said, discussing whether homosexuality is genetic or if it comes from our surroundings is for a different day. I only speak about myself and how I feel. I don't know if I was born with the desire to be with other women or if it came about because of things that have happened to me and my inability to cope with them. I will not dispute whether homosexuality in general is real or not, or whether others are naturally gay. I will back up the statement, however, that homosexual behavior does occur in the animal kingdom.

What IS certain, however, is that homosexual acts are absolutely, 100%, without a hint of doubt, haraam. It's not a pretty thing for someone with feelings like me to hear, but it's true. And if you say otherwise, you are twisting the words of the Qur'an to suit your own desires. Anyone who says that Allah accepts gays is not being honest about what they've read.

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It's fine for someone to have certain homosexual desires as long as they don't act on them. I have ran into homosexual muslims who understand their problem and seek help. Many of them got married and are able to live a happy life. I think communities should understand that there will be muslims out there with these desires and be open enough for them to feel comfortable to help them. Because without help these people might go off and commit sins.

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Guys, guys, guys

Homosexuality usually happens for 2 reasons and they both have cures....sociecty and stubbornness

Society for example the ancient Greeks promoted homosexuality, so this had effects on those teenagers developing. Other societies promote the same....the cure for this is to stay or move to a different community where this is frowned upon.....live there a while and in time this will have effect on your sexuality and your views will be a little more "heterosexual".

Stubbornness.....a small amount of boys when developing tend to look at "hot" men as a form of idolizing..they see him and his body and want to be like him, thus developing feelings (sexual) for him. As they grow older, naturally the would get over this but stubbornness keeps them from doing so....either they don't give effort or they don't want to change....the cure to this is the same cure for normal stubbornness....there are many, just google cures for stubbornness.

One must also fix his life.....be a bit more religious, start to pray and fast and also take action like I mentioned above....Inshallah it will help those who suffer from this.......or else......DEATH!!! mwahahahahah mwaha mwha mwhahahah

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Why does this topic even exist? Homosexuality is clearly forbidden... I don't understand why it takes 3 pages on something that is forbidden. Even if it was something natural, it will still take you to hell. It could be an animilistic desire in some people though it still sinfull.

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