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Revolutionary Shia

A Question About Shimr(la)

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Good evening from Australia brothers and sisters!

I haven't really replied or put a topic on prior to this. Alhamdulillah i was born and raised a muslim fortunately from a family that consist both of Sunni and Shias. So i have been raised in a very accepting of both sects kind of environment. I feel for those who haven't, as it is hard to perceive what it would be like for one or the other in terms of understanding. Anyways, My father is a Sunni and mother from a Siyyed family. Growing up i've realised my attraction to Islam has been through the teachings of our beloved Prophet(saws) and his Ahul ul Bayt(as) ever since i was 16, i've been a follower of the Ahl ul Bayt(as) and i've never been happier.

My question is, i was once watching a sunni shiehk talking about the event of Karbala in relation to certain figures (Shimr(la)) to be particular. He mentioned that Shimr(la) was a Shia of Ali(as) during the battle of Seffin. Now i've tried to search for evidence on this topic for so so so long and i am unable to find any proof to his comments. I was wondering if someone with a bit more knowledge then me would be able to assist further or enlighten me on this issue/topic.

(salam)

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Good evening from Australia brothers and sisters!

I haven't really replied or put a topic on prior to this. Alhamdulillah i was born and raised a muslim fortunately from a family that consist both of Sunni and Shias. So i have been raised in a very accepting of both sects kind of environment. I feel for those who haven't, as it is hard to perceive what it would be like for one or the other in terms of understanding. Anyways, My father is a Sunni and mother from a Siyyed family. Growing up i've realised my attraction to Islam has been through the teachings of our beloved Prophet(saws) and his Ahul ul Bayt(as) ever since i was 16, i've been a follower of the Ahl ul Bayt(as) and i've never been happier.

My question is, i was once watching a sunni shiehk talking about the event of Karbala in relation to certain figures (Shimr(la)) to be particular. He mentioned that Shimr(la) was a Shia of Ali(as) during the battle of Seffin. Now i've tried to search for evidence on this topic for so so so long and i am unable to find any proof to his comments. I was wondering if someone with a bit more knowledge then me would be able to assist further or enlighten me on this issue/topic.

(salam)

Salaam

I hope you are fine and may Allah keep you on the path of Muhammad s.a.w and Ale Muhammad. If you are not happy with this path then problem must be in you but not with the path. Ask yourself how much and in which way you are following it and inshAllah you will feel happy.

Now coming to your question regarding biggest lanaty ever existed on earth that is Shimr.

At the time of Imam Ali a.s, muslim population was already divided into different groups due to previous caliph's imbalanced rule. Utham due to his nepotist attitude gave too much power to his kinsmen which created lot of unrest among general muslim population. General muslim populations at that included people who believed in the khilafat of Abu Bakr, Umer and Uthman and of Imam Ali a.s and people who never believed in first three caliphs but always were with Imam Ali a.s and it was their faith that he is the first Imam. This general muslim population who did not like Uthman's nepotist attitude broke off from those who were stanch followers of Bani Umayyah including Uthman and had one common enemy that's why in battle of Saffin among armies of Imam Ali a.s there were his pure shias and those people too who were with him only because they were unhappy with Umayyans. So if some of such people later on change sides, it does not mean that they were shias of Imam Ali a.s because to be shia you must believe in 14 infallible and this is out of logic that some who believe in them also participate in their killing. It is something like one person accept Islam and then revert to paganism, will you still label him a muslim!!!! (examples are present in history).

To summarize what i said, at the time of Imam Ali a.s muslims were divided into Shias of Imam Ali a.s , Common Muslims mad at Uthman's nepotist attitude and Shias of Uthman (stanch supporter of Bani Umayyah).

Therefore even for the argument sake if we consider without any evidence that he was in the army of Imam Ali a.s, then why today's salafi sheikh label him a shia when he does not label companion of Prophet s.a.w such as Ammar Bin Yasir and others shia when they were standard barrier of his army!!!. Moreover people are judged by their present action and not by their past history.

Lastly if we look closely about this lanatullah character, for your amusement, you might think he was today;s sunni. Have a look;

We read in Mizan al Itidal, Volume 2 page 280 Biography 3742: (sunni book)

"Abu Isaac said: Shimer used to pray with us and say: ‘O God, you know that I am a righteous man thus forgive me’. I said: ‘How shall Allah forgive you when you participated in killing the son of Allah's messenger?’ He replied: ‘Woe to you! What should I have done? Our rulers ordered us to do so, we therefore did not disobey them, if we disobeyed them we would be worse than these animals’.

I said: ‘This is an awful excuse, verily obedience is only in relation to good things’."

You can see that shimr believed that he was under a religious duty to kill the Imam a.s as it was incumbent on him to implement the orders of his rulers no matter how perverse.

Also read this following;

"It is not permissible to revolt against the Muslim ruler except in cases where he manifests clear unbelief (kufr buwaah), for which there is decisive proof from Allah concerning it".

The General precepts of Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jamaa'ah, by Shaikh Naasir al-'Aql, page 34 English translation by 'Abu 'Aaliyah Surkheel ibn Anwar Sharif, published by Message of Islam.

And this was the very same believe of Shimr, to adhere to ruler of the time and due to this very same rule he might had been present in Imam Ali a.s army and such believe is followed by sunnis and shias never had such believe and do not follow any such believe.

One last thing, since 1400 years we shias curse this person and it is sunnis who had narrated even hadith from such person in their books. (reference available on request).

JazakAllah

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Listen to this talk by Sayed Ammer about debunking the filthy nasabi myth they try to spread...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzbe7qOID88

http://www.sayedammar.com/MUHARRAM%202010-11/muharram2010-11a.html

Also an article, a response of a true muslim to a dirty nasabi lier http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100317075259AAhb75a

I was worried about the same and alhamdullah it has answered all my questions.

I say this again those nasabi filth are blind and lead the blind.

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My question is, i was once watching a sunni shiehk talking about the event of Karbala in relation to certain figures (Shimr(la)) to be particular. He mentioned that Shimr(la) was a Shia of Ali(as) during the battle of Seffin. Now i've tried to search for evidence on this topic for so so so long and i am unable to find any proof to his comments. I was wondering if someone with a bit more knowledge then me would be able to assist further or enlighten me on this issue/topic.

Yes this is true. According to Shaykh Abbas al-Qummi, Shimr bin Dhu'l Jawshan participated in the battle of Siffeen with Imaam `Alee (as). He discusses this in his books Safeenah al-Bihaar, vol. 4, Chapter of "Sheen" after "Meem", pg. 492:

(taken from my personal copy of Abbas al-Qummi's Safeenah al-Bihaar, vol. 4, pg. 492)

shimrduringsiffeen.png

Translation: "I (Abbas al-Qummi) say: Shimr, may Allaah curse him, was in the army of Ameer al-Mu'mineen (as) on the day of Siffeen"

Source:

  • Abbaas al-Qummi, Safeenah al-Bihaar (Tehran, Daar al-Aswa, 2nd ed., 1416), vol. 4, ch. of "sheen" after "meem", pg. 492

Also `Alee al-Namaazee al-Shahroodi has also said that Shimr bin Dhu'l Jawshan fought alongside Imaam `Alee (as) at the battle of Siffeen.

شمر بن ذي الجوشن عليه آلاف ألوف لعنة، تولد من الزنا، وكان يوم صفين في جيش أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام

Shimr bin Dhu'l Jawshan, upon him is thousands and thousands of la`nah, born from zinaa, and he was on the day of Siffeen in the Army of Ameer al-Mu'mineen (as)

Source:

  • al-Shahroodi, Mustadarak Safeenah al-Bihaar (Qum: Mu'assasah al-Nashr al-Islaami), vol. 6, pg. 43

(salam)

Edited by Nader Zaveri

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http://www.answering...in/en/chap2.php

Brother, I have copied a passage from the above mentioned link. It is wise to read the whole article which consist of detailed arguments and cites numerous examples. Answer in just few lines will never be enough for your thirsty truth seeking mind. Jazak Allah (SWT)

It has being part and parcel of postmodern Nasibi propaganda to insist that the ‘ancestors’ of the Shi’a were a treacherous people that consistently abandoned Imam Ali, Imam Hasan, Imam Hussain and the remainder Ahlulbayt Imams (Peace be upon them) and in some cases killed them. They seek to corroborate their claims by citing unknown texts by unknown authors as a mechanism for duping ordinary unsuspecting Muslims that do not possess a strong background on Islamic history. The shameless people lack the capability to direct these foolish allegations to us, the Shia of Ahlulbayt directly because as they are fully aware that the definition of the term ‘Shia’ did not carry same meaning back then as it does today. This was an all-encompassing term that referred to everyone including those who are called Sunnis today. The reality is the term Shia was not a homogenous term, and essentially incorporated the affiliates of Ali (as) with differing political and religious views; we have therefore from this point on sought to distinguish the key groupings as follows:

  • The minority Shia that believed that Ali (as) had a divine mandate to rule as he had been appointed as Caliph by the Prophet (s) (hereafter referred to as Shia al-Khasa)

The majority Shia that believed that Ali (as) had the legal mandate to rule as he had been appointed as fourth Caliph by the Ummah, like the earlier Caliphs (hereafter referred to as Aama).

With this fact in mind, the real question that should be addressed is:

Which segment of what made up the generic term ‘Shia’ perpetrated these heinous actions that today’s Nawasib attribute to today’s Shia Imami (twelver) Sect?

Once this puzzle is solved all the pieces of this large complex jigsaw fit into place and one can easily gauge the treachery and the hypocrisy of the Nawasib. We will debunk the Nasibi propaganda in this article God willing.

Edited by Toronto110

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My question is, i was once watching a sunni shiehk

For the sake of better comprehension, would suggest you attach a URL of the Shaykh you were watching so the learned people on the Forum can answer you or give evidence that Shimr (la) cannot be one from the camp of the Bani Hashim.

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Just ask what you want to ask..? Why give a whole background story? Anyway, No He wasn't.

Bit rude? I don't post on here much thus i thought i'd give you a bit of an insight in relation to my background brother/sister :) That is all.

To the rest of you who have left wonderful replies, i appreciate your time and efforts. This is much clearer in a sense of political shias of the time and Imami Shias with solid belief in the Ahl ul Bayt(as).

If anyone else has an import or more knowledge on this matter hadiths/lectures etc please do share as i'm keen on knowing more about this era in time.

For the sake of better comprehension, would suggest you attach a URL of the Shaykh you were watching so the learned people on the Forum can answer you or give evidence that Shimr (la) cannot be one from the camp of the Bani Hashim.

Wish i still had it.. This was a while back.. Cannot remember the source i got it from.. But it stuck with me and could never really find the answer :) Thought i'd ask more knowledgable brothers and sisters

Jazakallah

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(salam)

(bismillah)

Wish i still had it.. This was a while back.. Cannot remember the source i got it from.. But it stuck with me and could never really find the answer :)

The source has already been mentioned.

Yes this is true. According to Shaykh Abbas al-Qummi, Shimr bin Dhu'l Jawshan participated in the battle of Siffeen with Imaam `Alee (as). He discusses this in his books Safeenah al-Bihaar, vol. 4, Chapter of "Sheen" after "Meem", pg. 492:

(taken from my personal copy of Abbas al-Qummi's Safeenah al-Bihaar, vol. 4, pg. 492)

shimrduringsiffeen.png

Translation: "I (Abbas al-Qummi) say: Shimr, may Allaah curse him, was in the army of Ameer al-Mu'mineen (as) on the day of Siffeen"

Source:

  • Abbaas al-Qummi, Safeenah al-Bihaar (Tehran, Daar al-Aswa, 2nd ed., 1416), vol. 4, ch. of "sheen" after "meem", pg. 492

Also `Alee al-Namaazee al-Shahroodi has also said that Shimr bin Dhu'l Jawshan fought alongside Imaam `Alee (as) at the battle of Siffeen.

شمر بن ذي الجوشن عليه آلاف ألوف لعنة، تولد من الزنا، وكان يوم صفين في جيش أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام

Shimr bin Dhu'l Jawshan, upon him is thousands and thousands of la`nah, born from zinaa, and he was on the day of Siffeen in the Army of Ameer al-Mu'mineen (as)

Source:

  • al-Shahroodi, Mustadarak Safeenah al-Bihaar (Qum: Mu'assasah al-Nashr al-Islaami), vol. 6, pg. 43

(salam)

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(salam)

(bismillah)

The source has already been mentioned.

Salam alaykom

that would not make shimr an ex shia correct? shia is more than joining the battle. as even the kharijites were part of the battle of siffin

Shimr (LA) *

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(salam)

(bismillah)

The source has already been mentioned.

Salam!

You are a legend!! :) There we go! So we've cleared this topic up! GUYS YOU HAVE BEEN GREAT HELP!! THANK YOU SO MUCH! MAY Allah BLESS YOU ALL

Laanet Allah ala al thaleemin.

Ya aba abdillah i wish i was with you. Peace and blessing of Allah be upon you, your family your friends and all the lives which were lost on this sad day!

May the curse be upon Yazeed and those who joined his ranks.

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(wasalam)

Well according to Sunni logic, saying Shimr (la) is a Shi'a because he fought alongside 'Amir ul Moimineen (as) would then mean Khalid bin Waleed (la) is a kaafir because he fought alongside the kuffar.

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he started matamdari??????

From when??

And dont forget that he is the only1 who have cutted the head of husain a.s,

I have heard from a local scholar that He is biggest oppresor and will be punished at the higher level then yazid l.a becoz of his shameful act

On the day of judgement dajjal will be having 1 rope in his nose

But shimr lanati will be having 2 ropes.

Lanat on shimr beshumaar

@zehra even i have hheard the samething

I guess he was the brother of ummul banin

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May I know at the first place, why did you curse Shimr? :mellow:

I thought Shimr was the one who started matamdari?

Because he killed Imam Hussein (as)

May Allah (swt) withdraw his mercy from all oppressors from the first till the last

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I dunno who Shimr is. And I dunno who actually murdered Imam Husayn RA.

Some say Yazid, some say Shimr, some say a random Khawarij guy.

This is just confusing.

Yazeed (la) ordered Imam Hussein (as) to be killed if Imam Hussein (as) does not give allegiance to him therefore he is responsible for Imam Husseins (as ) death.

Shimr (la) was the actual person who killed Imam Hussein (as) physically.

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Yazeed (la) ordered Imam Hussein (as) to be killed if Imam Hussein (as) does not give allegiance to him therefore he is responsible for Imam Husseins (as ) death.

Shimr (la) was the actual person who killed Imam Hussein (as) physically.

Okay, one of my Shiite friend told me that the one who killed Imam Husayn RA was Ubaidillah bin Ziyad RA. There are many confusion in Shia belief.

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Okay, one of my Shiite friend told me that the one who killed Imam Husayn RA was Ubaidillah bin Ziyad RA. There are many confusion in Shia belief.

Ubaidullah ibn Ziyad (la) was a leader of Yazeeds (la) army in karbala therefore he too was in a way responsible for the killing of Imam Hussein (as)

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Okay, one of my Shiite friend told me that the one who killed Imam Husayn RA was Ubaidillah bin Ziyad RA. There are many confusion in Shia belief.

Why are you saying RA after ibn Ziyad's name? Doesn't the sentence, "the one who killed Imam Husayn RA was Ubaidillah bin Ziyad RA" sound stupid?

How could God be pleased with both the victim and the murderer?

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Ubaidullah ibn Ziyad (la) was a leader of Yazeeds (la) army in karbala therefore he too was in a way responsible for the killing of Imam Hussein (as)

Okay, can you just explain to me what were Yazid, Shimr and Ubaidullah bin Ziyad [Edited] positions during the battle of Karbala?

Why are you saying RA after ibn Ziyad's name? Doesn't the sentence, "the one who killed Imam Husayn RA was Ubaidillah bin Ziyad RA" sound stupid?

How could God be pleased with both the victim and the murderer?

So, what's the problem? It's a dua. [Edited]

Admins Note: [You are not allowed to praise Yazeed, Muawiyah, Shimr et al]

Edited by inshaAllah

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So, what's the problem? It's a dua. May Allah be pleased with them.

Why would you ask God to be pleased with a person who was heavily involved in the killing of the Leader of the Youths of Paradise?

How can you like the killer and the victim? It does not make sense at all.

That is frankly disgusting and you need to rethink your moral compass.

Edited by Replicant

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i will explain you mr.Ace

Suppose you have spoke something ill about our belief

I started insulting you Other members supported me and they also insulted you

Then 1 mod came and banned you

And you are out of SC.

Same like this yazid l.a made an army ziyad lanati attacked imam a.s with bunch of lanatis and finally shimr lanati

Cutted Imam husAin a.s head by his lanati sword.

If you think shia beliefs have confusion dont try to understand

Its out of your Limit

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Okay, can you just explain to me what were Yazid, Shimr and Ubaidullah bin Ziyad RA's positions during the battle of Karbala?

Yazeed (la) was the "caliph" of the time and he sent the army to either get allegience from Imam Hussein (as) or to kill him if he doesn't give his allegiance.

Ubaidullah ibn ziyad (la) was one of the leaders in the army of Yazeed (la). He gave the order for the army to attack Imam Hussein (as) and hes companions

Shimr (la) was the person who sat on the chest of Imam Hussein (as) when he was defenceless and killed him.

Therefore all 3 are responsible for hes death.

And by the way you said "one of my Shiite friend told me that the one who killed Imam Husayn RA was Ubaidillah bin Ziyad RA"

Why are you saying RA after ibn Ziyad's name? Doesn't the sentence, "the one who killed Imam Husayn RA was Ubaidillah bin Ziyad RA" sound stupid?

How could God be pleased with both the victim and the murderer?

So, what's the problem? It's a dua. May Allah be pleased with them.

Oh so you have double standards? You say its insulting if I curse certain sahabah because you believe them to be pious people, but you dont find it insulting to praise someone who we believe is an enemy of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì?

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i will explain you mr.Ace

Suppose you have spoke something ill about our belief

I started insulting you Other members supported me and they also insulted you

Then 1 mod came and banned you

And you are out of SC.

I don't understand this part.

If you think shia beliefs have confusion dont try to understand

Its out of your Limit

Okay, it's not out of your limit. It's out of my limit only. Got it!

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Oh so you have double standards? You say its insulting if I curse certain sahabah because you believe them to be pious people, but you dont find it insulting to praise someone who we believe is an enemy of Allah سبحانه وتعالى?

HEY!

Remember...they are all sahabis.

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Mr ace abbas please don't mind what I will say after few lines but this is different thread and you sounded very different from other thread over here. You think we are some stupid sufis or salafis here!!! You don't know who killed imam hussain a.s but you happened to know who started matamdari..its something like you don't know what is apple but you know how to harvest apple..just as we send lanat on shimr I am sending lanat on you (acc. To ziyarat ahsura u also come under lanats).

Now just for ur fake confusion about your father shimr..Yazeed made obedullah ibn zeyad governor of kufa and basra and ordered him to crush any anti govt movement. This governor send army under the command of umer bin saad bin abi waqaas l.a to karbala. Shimr was among that army who decapitated the great Imam a.s. May Allah curse them all, their followers and people who try to hide their deeds.

Ameen.

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Oh so you have double standards? You say its insulting if I curse certain sahabah because you believe them to be pious people, but you dont find it insulting to praise someone who we believe is an enemy of Allah سبحانه وتعالى?

Thank you for the explanations.

Okay, I should take back the radiyAllahu 'anh part because I just searched for the list of sahabas and Ubaidullah bin Ziyad is not there.

But still, Allah will judge everyone.

Mr ace abbas please don't mind what I will say after few lines but this is different thread and you sounded very different from other thread over here. You think we are some stupid sufis or salafis here!!! You don't know who killed imam hussain a.s but you happened to know who started matamdari..its something like you don't know what is apple but you know how to harvest apple..just as we send lanat on shimr I am sending lanat on you (acc. To ziyarat ahsura u also come under lanats).

Now just for ur fake confusion about your father shimr..Yazeed made obedullah ibn zeyad governor of kufa and basra and ordered him to crush any anti govt movement. This governor send army under the command of umer bin saad bin abi waqaas l.a to karbala. Shimr was among that army who decapitated the great Imam a.s. May Allah curse them all, their followers and people who try to hide their deeds.

Ameen.

I never say that you guys are stupid Sufis or Salafis. I really dunno who Shimr is, alright. I just read from somewhere which says the one who started matamdari named Shimr. I dunno who Shimr was. And I don't really know whether was it really Shimr who started matamdari or was it another person. That is why I asked here on this thread. I never knew who actually murdered Imam Husayn RA.

Edited by Ace Abbas

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