What Alam (standard) Was Held In Kerbala?

[Çåá ÇáÈíÊ]

What sort of Alam was held in the Battle of Kerbala, what did it look like exactly?

Was it the shape of a hand? If so, what does this symbolize? What is the meaning of it?

If it wasn't, then why do we hold up high a flag that is the shape of a hand?

[alirex]

Like every Community have there Mark same way Alam = Flag. All country have there own Flag to represent. So at that time there was not much Country marked so they have there own Community Flags.

[Çåá ÇáÈíÊ]

Like every Community have there Mark same way Alam = Flag. All country have there own Flag to represent. So at that time there was not much Country marked so they have there own Community Flags.

It wan't a 'community flag' and it still isn't even today. It represents something. Otherwise, a random flag wouldn't be held in the battle if it meant nothing. I have no idea what you mean by "at that time there was not much country".. ?

[Maula Dha Mallang]

It wan't a 'community flag' and it still isn't even today. It represents something. Otherwise, a random flag wouldn't be held in the battle if it meant nothing. I have no idea what you mean by "at that time there was not much country".. ?

do you realise that there is a difference between an "alam" and a "panja"?

[Çåá ÇáÈíÊ]

do you realise that there is a difference between an "alam" and a "panja"?

:donno: No, i didn't realize, please explain. What's the difference?

[Replicant]

:donno: No, i didn't realize, please explain. What's the difference?

Panja is the hand.

Alam is the flag.

[alirex]

I like to mention one thing in my text and it was " SIMBOL " a flag mounted with a Panja will remain flag means a SIMBOLIC OBJECT.

I will Insha Allah ask someone Aalim-e-Deen about this and will update.

[xstatik2]

The Flag which was carried in Karbala was the one which was used by Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H) and was subsequently handed down to his progeny.

The Panja symbolizes "Punjetan Paak" or Ahlul Bayt / Ahl e Bait - Muhammad, Ali, Fatima, Hassan & Hussain (Peace and Salutations upon them)

[Çåá ÇáÈíÊ]

The Flag which was carried in Karbala was the one which was used by Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H) and was subsequently handed down to his progeny.

The Panja symbolizes "Punjetan Paak" or Ahlul Bayt / Ahl e Bait - Muhammad, Ali, Fatima, Hassan & Hussain (Peace and Salutations upon them)

What did the flag look like, then?

So is the Panja something cultural, does it have any historical significance or did someone just decide to randomly use it as a representation of the Pure 5?

I used to think that the standard bearer on kerbala was holding up the Pancha!! I didn't know it was a flag! Big Shock. Perplexing.

Edited November 28, 2011 by Çåá ÇáÈíÊ

[Replicant]

What did the flag look like, then?

I don't think we can know for sure what it looked like, but I would imagine it would just be a flag.

I picture something like this:

[Çåá ÇáÈíÊ]

I don't think we can know for sure what it looked like, but I would imagine it would just be a flag.

I picture something like this:

I see ... I imagine the flag to be green though, but its all speculation. So, does the pancha, pehaps, represent the hand that held up the flag? Who decided to use the pancha?

[Maula Dha Mallang]

I see ... I imagine the flag to be green though, but its all speculation. So, does the pancha, pehaps, represent the hand that held up the flag? Who decided to use the pancha?

i think you are missing the point brother.

each culture and community remembers ashura in its own way. our arab brothers hold plays and re enactments and beat drums, our iranian brothers have their own rassam, our turkish their own, hazara their own, african their own and so on. all places hold 10 days of mourning even though this is not a sunnah. all places have their own expressions of grief.

i assume you are attempting to say - the alam isnt an exact replica of the alam at karbala, so is a bida so should be avoided?

if you (or anyone) can show to us exactly what the alam looked like, what were its size and proportions and colour and fabric, then we will all make one according to it. since none of us know, we will make a symbol as close to it as we can make it, and adorn it with other meaningful syymbols such as the panja, the water bag and the arrow, and revere it as though it was the real one.

[Replicant]

all places hold 10 days of mourning even though this is not a sunnah.

I recently heard in a lecture that Imam Kadhim (as) started the 10 days mourning. It was either him or Imam Baqir (as), I have forgotten.

So it's all good :)

[Çåá ÇáÈíÊ]

i think you are missing the point brother.

each culture and community remembers ashura in its own way. our arab brothers hold plays and re enactments and beat drums, our iranian brothers have their own rassam, our turkish their own, hazara their own, african their own and so on. all places hold 10 days of mourning even though this is not a sunnah. all places have their own expressions of grief.

i assume you are attempting to say - the alam isnt an exact replica of the alam at karbala, so is a bida so should be avoided?

if you (or anyone) can show to us exactly what the alam looked like, what were its size and proportions and colour and fabric, then we will all make one according to it. since none of us know, we will make a symbol as close to it as we can make it, and adorn it with other meaningful syymbols such as the panja, the water bag and the arrow, and revere it as though it was the real one.

I think you're missing the point, too.. lol. I don't think you understand what i'm trying to ask. I'm not asking about how each culture remembers Ashura or what not, that's irrelevant, and I'm definitely not trying to insinuate that the Pancha is an innovation, at all. Pancha is amongst the signs of Allah.

I'm asking, when did this Pancha thing begin? Because every culture has a pancha when commemorating Ashura, so who thought of making a palm with five fingers?

[Çåá ÇáÈíÊ]

Can Anyone Help? ^

[Çåá ÇáÈíÊ]

When was the idea of the Pancha first incepted, who created it and why was it made alongside the Alam?

[xstatik2]

http://www.google.co...s:0&tx=72&ty=78

I'm assuming it would have been something like this :)

Edited January 14, 2012 by xstatik2

[Nader Zaveri]

(salam)

(bismillah)

Was it the shape of a hand? If so, what does this symbolize? What is the meaning of it?

If it wasn't, then why do we hold up high a flag that is the shape of a hand?

The "hand" or "panja" is not found to have any Islaamic significance. Regarding the `alam (flag) or raayah (رَايَة - banner) of Imaam al-Hussayn, we do have a SaHeeH (Authentic) hadeeth about Imaam al-Mahdi (as) having the raayah (banner) of the Messenger of Allaah (pbuh). I have made a blog post about this, click here: http://www.revivingalislam.com/2012/01/signs-of-relief-for-shia.html

(salam)