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In the Name of God بسم الله

Should Christians And Jews Be Allowed In Mecca?

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  • Advanced Member

(salam)

Anyone and everyone should be allowed to visit Mecca. Since the House of God(the Kaaba) was built by Abraham and his son, I believe Jew especially should be allowed to visit so they can see what they are missing out on.

Btw brother, I recall you were Christian right? Are you a Muslim now? And if so, what caused the change? Pardon my curiosity :)

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  • Veteran Member

(salam)

Anyone and everyone should be allowed to visit Mecca. Since the House of God(the Kaaba) was built by Abraham and his son, I believe Jew especially should be allowed to visit so they can see what they are missing out on.

Perhaps, if Christians and Jews were allowed there, it would help convert them to Islam. ;)

Btw brother, I recall you were Christian right? Are you a Muslim now? And if so, what caused the change? Pardon my curiosity :)

It's kind of a long story, and would probably take the thread off topic...wouldn't it? Right, mods? :donno:

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  • Veteran Member

Really? Im aware Jews are forbidden from their "holly land", but Mecca?

May I please ask what verse from the Great Quran speaks of this 'ban'?

He's referring to Surah 9:28

O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise. (Yusufali Translation)

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  • Advanced Member

The verse you have quoted isin't what you think it is.

The sacred mosque is Al-Aqsa in Palestine

It's where Prophet Solomon (pbuh) has burried his knowledge and power until Freemasons had dug under about three hundred years ago and aquired most books. This sacred mosque is where Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) went up to the heavens(Surah Al-Isra)

Edited by Abbas0
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[Pickthal 9:28] O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 9:28]

The infidels are unclean both literally and metaphorically. It refers to their physical uncleanliness as well as to their impure hearts and souls. According to the holy Imams anything wet touched by an idolater should not be used unless properly purified.

When the unclean pagans were debarred from entering the sacred precinct of Ka-bah, the Muslims began to worry about the profits from trade and commerce, but Allah assured them that their welfare and economic position will not suffer. This actually happened.

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^^Yep, and what hits the nail on the head is that the Ahlul Kitab (Jews and Christians) are distinguished from the mushrikun (pagans) in the Quran.

That said, this ruling never made any sense to me.

I think there are Sunni hadith that support the ruling, but I don't think they are reliable for us Shia. Not only that, what's the logic in forbidding them to come to Sacred House? The idolaters were forbidden because they abused the Kaaba and set up idols of false gods and made tons of money off making the idolaters put their idols there so they would have to come to Mecca to ask their gods for help in their daily affairs.

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Lol wrong lol they are mushriks.

[Pickthal 9:29] Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 9:29]

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

According to this verse a disbeliever, or a polytheist, or an infidel (kafir) is he who (i) does not believe in Allah, nor in His oneness and unity, but associates other created beings as partners or co-equals with Him (ii) does not believe in the day of judgement (iii) does not follow what Allah and His Prophet have enjoined (iv) does not accept and submit to the true religion.

As the above noted negations are correlative and interrelated, one is the necessary consequence of the other. Apart from the corrupted and distorted beliefs of the people of the book (described in the succeeding verses) their denial and rejection of the true religion of Allah, Islam, is sufficient to put them in the category of disbelievers. The Jews and the Christians are the people of the book, and according to the jurists of the school of Ahl ul Bayt Zoroastrians are also included in the people of the book, because in verse 17 of al Hajj they have been grouped with the Jews and the Christians, and the Holy Prophet and Imam Ali also treated them in the same manner as the Jews and the Christians were treated.

Allah enjoins upon the believers to fight against the disbelievers and the people of the book until they are subdued and agree to pay jizyah (the root meaning is compensation) with willing submission to live under the protection of Islam, enjoying personal liberty of conscience, free to profess and practice their own faith, not interfering with the preaching and progress of Islam. They were exempted from military service, therefore in effect jizyah was a nominal compensation paid by them in return for the protection of their property and lives for which the Islamic government was responsible .

It was a necessary step that had to be taken in view of the treacherous attitude of the Jews and the pagans who had been harassing and creating chaos all the time during the lifetime of the Holy Prophet. When defeated they readily made pacts to avoid the consequences of the defeat, but always jumped at every opportunity to kill the Holy Prophet and the believers and destroy the progress of Islam by breaking promises and covenants and hatching secret schemes.

وَقَالَتِ الْيَهُودُ عُزَيْرٌ ابْنُ اللَّهِ وَقَالَتِ النَّصَارَى الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ اللَّهِ ۖ ذَٰلِكَ قَوْلُهُمْ بِأَفْوَاهِهِمْ ۖ يُضَاهِئُونَ قَوْلَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِنْ قَبْلُ ۚ قَاتَلَهُمُ اللَّهُ ۚ أَنَّىٰ يُؤْفَكُونَ {30}

[Pickthal 9:30] And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 9:30]

In these verses the corrupted and distorted beliefs of the Jews and the Christians have been pointed out, because of which they have been grouped with idolaters in the preceding verse.

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you do know idolaters are not necessarily the same as polytheists, right?

Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

This verse was revealed in actual war time when the Muslims were under threat, first of all. Allah does NOT enjoin us to fight with those of the Ahlul Kitab who mean us no harm whatsoever regardless of how polytheistic or idolatrous they may appear to us. You don't just go and fight them until you are their rulers because they don't believe in the Quran. You sound like a Wahabi when you talk like that, bro. Also, it still doesn't say they are not allowed near the Kaaba, nor does it say that their disbelief in the Religion of Truth makes them mushriks. Ahlul Kitab are not mushriks just because they don't believe in Islam.

9:30 still doesn't say they are mushriks/idolaters, only that they're saying God has a son is similar to what the pagans believed about their gods, but it doesn't necessarily make them idolaters or disbelievers. You shouldn't toss around words like kaffir and mushrik if you don't know what they really mean.

Edit: Also, are you just gonna not ask twice and believe what any one commentator says on the matter? You do know that not every commentator is right on the money, that's why we don't use Sunni commentators and hadith. Your just presented what some commentator says his interpretation and presenting it as fact without any reason.

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23
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That commentary was from pooya and ali. Very respected scholars. MashaAllah. All I said was they were mushriks. The rest was not y words.

Respected or not, I find their opinion silly.

I don't understand how all Ahlul Kitab can be called mushrikun. That's dumb.

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Who knows if that's what theyre saying I could be intepreting wrong so I'm looking for more evidence kus it could be wrong. Allahu A3lam. And jiyza part may not be in relation to today's time. It was just part of that section.

Understood, forgive me if I was jumping to conclusions. Been in a sour mood lately.

Anyway, my position stands that the Quran, no where forbids Ahlul Kitab from visiting the Kaaba. The only one it explcitly forbids are mushrikun and this does not necessarily constitute Ahlul Kitab because not all are mushriks. mushrik is typically translated in english as either "polytheists," "idolaters," or "disbelievers," there are different interpretations. For example, Sunnis may consider us mushrikun. So it sometimes feel rather subjective to what you consider the behavior of a mushrik.

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23
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I don't understand how all Ahlul Kitab can be called mushrikun. That's dumb.

Laqad Kafara Al-Ladhīna Qālū 'Inna Al-Laha Huwa Al-Masīĥu Abnu Maryama ۖ Wa Qāla Al-Masīĥu Yā Banī 'Isrā'īlaA`budū Al-Laha Rabbī Wa Rabbakum ۖ 'Innahu Man Yushrik Bil-Lahi Faqad Ĥarrama Al-Lahu `Alayhi Al-Jannata Wa Ma'wāhu An-Nāru ۖ Wa Mā Lilžžālimīna Min 'Anşārin

لَقَدْ كَفَرَ الَّذِينَ قَالُوا إِنَّ اللَّهَ هُوَ الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ ۖ وَقَالَ الْمَسِيحُ يَا بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ اعْبُدُوا اللَّهَ رَبِّي وَرَبَّكُمْ ۖ إِنَّهُ مَنْ يُشْرِكْ بِاللَّهِ فَقَدْ حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ الْجَنَّةَ وَمَأْوَاهُ النَّارُ ۖ وَمَا لِلظَّالِمِينَ مِنْ أَنْصَارٍ {72}

Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Marium; and the Messiah said: O Children of Israel! serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust.

(Surah Ma'aida (5), Verse 72)

There is some debate among the scholars whether or not the distinction shown in the Qur'aan between the idolaters and AhlulKitab was later abrogated (since we have some ahadith to that effect).

Also idolaters are not just banned because they will violate the sanctity of the Haramain by bringing along idols with them. They are impure themselves physically (because of their faith) and a lot of the scholars consider AhlulKitab to be impure as well.

Furthermore, the Qur'aan is pretty clear about not allowing those in Janaaba (ritual impurity) to enter any mosque at all (and here you're speaking of the two holiest ones). Obviously neither the AhlulKitab nor the idolaters perform Ghusl after any type of sexual activity or Haydh.

So the bar is pretty justified to me.

Edited by Basim Ali
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you can get haram meat in mecca, so the idiot wahabbis allow that. makes no sense why they would not allow non muslims if they allow haram meat

It is because Saudi Arabia is as corrupt as they come. I have a short story about this place told to me by someone I know well. He used to work there.....a lebanese guy but has a Canadian passport so he was paid well. Anyway one of the princes (they have thousands of those) sent a driver to his apartment. He said he never should have went but he went anyway. He went to this place and there was alcohol, drugs, women, and gay guys. The next week they sent the driver again and he declined..........conveniently a few days later he was let go from his job and had to return home. Anyway I know not everyone in Saudi Arabia is like this, but the few people who have a little bit of power are very corrupt.

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  • Banned

It is because Saudi Arabia is as corrupt as they come. I have a short story about this place told to me by someone I know well. He used to work there.....a lebanese guy but has a Canadian passport so he was paid well. Anyway one of the princes (they have thousands of those) sent a driver to his apartment. He said he never should have went but he went anyway. He went to this place and there was alcohol, drugs, women, and gay guys. The next week they sent the driver again and he declined..........conveniently a few days later he was let go from his job and had to return home. Anyway I know not everyone in Saudi Arabia is like this, but the few people who have a little bit of power are very corrupt.

why are those who are defined by their love for the enemies of the ahlul bayt, always shown to have an affection for homosexuality, alcoholism and general debauchery? may Allah curse them in this life and the next.

btw i hope your friend did not engage in any "sunnah e umar" at the party :huh: lol

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That said, this ruling never made any sense to me.

Because it is fueled by hate.....that is why it doesn't make sense.

btw i hope your friend did not engage in any "sunnah e umar" at the party :huh: lol

hahahaha I would be more than shocked if he did.....it is not like him.

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  • Advanced Member

(salam)

(bismillah)

I've been under the impression that their being forbidden to visit the Kaaba was just the Sunna of Umar.

No this is not just a Sunni concept, this is a shee'ah concept. When i get home inshaa'Allah i will show that our scholars agree to this as well.

(salam)

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  • Advanced Member

(salam)

I wish I could vote, but apparently I don't have enough posts or something.

I vote no, because in Shi`i Islam, aren't the Christians and Jews najis? Though their najasat doesn't break our wudu and only necessitates us to wipe our hands with earth and a wall (or wash hands for the Zorastrians and the Nawasib), they still are inherently impure.

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Where does this attitude that their unclean come from? I was told the Prophet (pbuh) prayed alongside them. How could he pray with them, yet then say they were too unclean to enter the mosque?

Again, it's pure lunacy, if you hope to convert them, you have to interact with them, and if you hope to interact with them, you can't be afraid to touch them. Not only that we're still allowed to marry them. So we can marry them and pray alongside them, but we can't let them into our mosques or shrines to see the glory of God? I call shenanigans.

I really am getting very tired of this pompous attitude I see Muslims perpetuate when many of Ahlul Kitab are twice as devoted to God with actual love than some of our Muslim brothers who treat the Quran as just another history book to boast about their reading and have no real divine love in their hearts. That's why I don't think it makes sense for them to be barred from the Holy House, because we shouldn't bar anyone with an honest and heartfelt desire to learn about and see God from doing so. :dry:

Also, I've understood shirk and mushrikun to mean "idolatry" and "idolaters," That is...those people who friggin feed statues and give them money thinking the statue is alive and divine itself. :shifty:

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23
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I was going to open a topic like this, but i forgot. Anyway, I'm thinking of many things at once, i must write in bullet points:

  • Jizya tax is clearly abrogated, it's no longer needed in this day and age. No one is interfering with or preventing the progress and practices of Islam, now, especially in Mekkah.
  • I agree with Saintly_Jinn - furthermore, anyone can call themselves 'muslim' nowadays, it's just become a slogan, or they could just pretend. There are many hypocrites and non-believers who attend the hajj pilgrimage, it's not like saudi security can read into everyone's heart. Therefore, it's a nonsensical joke to not let anyone enter Mekkah and just so-called "muslims". And so, technically, when you're doing tawaf you will inevitably touch someone "najis", anyway.
  • No-one can be "Physically" impure, this makes no sense. You can't arbitrarily judge someone's sense of hygiene level based on their ideology. So, suddenly, if they convert, they're suddenly inherently, physically pure? Come on now. There are many clean atheists out there you know.
  • It's very close minded to not allow peaceful people from different religions to enter mekkah, this prevention really lacks any justification, let alone common sense.

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It is true some of the ahlul kitab who deified Ezra and worshipped statues of Jesus (as) are mushriks in one way, but to generalise against all of them whilst their creed is inherantly monotheistic is foolishness.

Here's two ayas that distinguished the pagans from the Jews and Christians:

"Those who disbelieved from among them people of the Book and the polytheists (mushrikin) could not have seperated themselves until came unto them the Clear Evidence" (Surat Al Bayyinah verse 1)

"Verily those who disbelieve from among the people of the Book and the polytheists shall be in the fire of hell, to abide therein..." (Surat Al-Bayyinah verse 6)

And why are some saying the Ahlul Kitab are najis? Seriously Al-Khoei, Shahid Sadr and many others have said the Ahlul Kitab are tahir. And we dont need ulema to confirm this for us, this is just pure reason. The Quran legitimises marriages with jews and christians and considers their food lawful for us, we have many commonalities with them and we shouldn't possess a hateful attitude towards anyone in general.

Peace

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The Quran legitimises marriages with jews and christians and considers their food lawful for us, we have many commonalities with them and we shouldn't possess a hateful attitude towards anyone in general.

Peace

..Only in mut'ah marriage. In permanent marriage a confliction of ideologies can be a problem, especially if the couple end up having children. In regards to the food, there's a specific context to that, we generally aren't allowed their meat etc - there's a hadith from the Imam (a) regarding this.

Yes, we shouldn't be intolerant or hateful to anyone, regardless of religion or nationality. Everyone shares the universal morality and everyone is equal in humanity.

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  • Advanced Member

..Only in mut'ah marriage. In permanent marriage a confliction of ideologies can be a problem, especially if the couple end up having children. In regards to the food, there's a specific context to that, we generally aren't allowed their meat etc - there's a hadith from the Imam (a) regarding this.

True, their meat is still haram to us because it isn't slaughtered the halal way.

Jizya tax is clearly abrogated, it's no longer needed in this day and age. No one is interfering with or preventing the progress and practices of Islam, now, especially in Mekkah.

The Jizya tax isn't abrogated, we shouldn't confine these injunctions with merely the context of its revelation and lean to a time period as the factor which signifies the wisdom behind these rulings. The main purpose behind the tax is to humble the non-muslims living in a strictly Islamic state; it consolidates authority over those who don't conform to the official islamic ideology of the state and is generally seen as a formal recognition of the ruling authorities by the non-muslim taxpayer.

Edited by La'nat Ma Man
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We're actually allowed to eat Kosher food. The Christians are different because they don't generally slaughter as per Kosher and Halal ritual, and also they generally eat meat from forbidden animals. But I'm certain we're allowed Kosher food.

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  • Advanced Member

(salam)

(bismillah)

We're actually allowed to eat Kosher food. The Christians are different because they don't generally slaughter as per Kosher and Halal ritual, and also they generally eat meat from forbidden animals. But I'm certain we're allowed Kosher food.

Who said this?!

Here is what al-Sistani says:

Question :

Is Kosher meat halal?

Answer :

It is not halal.

Source: http://www.sistani.o...1251&perpage=12

(salam)

Edited by Nader Zaveri
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  • Veteran Member

I was going to open a topic like this, but i forgot. Anyway, I'm thinking of many things at once, i must write in bullet points:

  • Jizya tax is clearly abrogated, it's no longer needed in this day and age. No one is interfering with or preventing the progress and practices of Islam, now, especially in Mekkah.

No it's not. Stop making up your own fatwas.

  • agree with Saintly_Jinn - furthermore, anyone can call themselves 'muslim' nowadays, it's just become a slogan, or they could just pretend. There are many hypocrites and non-believers who attend the hajj pilgrimage, it's not like saudi security can read into everyone's heart. Therefore, it's a nonsensical joke to not let anyone enter Mekkah and just so-called "muslims". And so, technically, when you're doing tawaf you will inevitably touch someone "najis", anyway.

There were many hypocrites during the time of the Prophet (pbuh) too, so nothing has changed in that regard.

  • No-one can be "Physically" impure, this makes no sense. You can't arbitrarily judge someone's sense of hygiene level based on their ideology. So, suddenly, if they convert, they're suddenly inherently, physically pure? Come on now. There are many clean atheists out there you know.

It's not about hygene levels, it's about spiritual or ritual uncleanliness. Just because you take a shower it doesn't make you ready for prayer, does it? You need to perform wudhu in order to be ritually clean. Also, just washing yourself isn't equivalent to ghusl.

Ritual cleanliness is not something that just came about with Islam. The Jews, Christians, and members of other religions also had this concept.

  • It's very close minded to not allow peaceful people from different religions to enter mekkah, this prevention really lacks any justification, let alone common sense.

Well, maybe we should examine the justification before just dismissing it.

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