Islamic Supreme Leader Vs Dictatorship

[velayat2011]

[alimohamad40]

thank you

[Rasul]

Thanks for sharing.

[repenter-gone4awhile]

Imam just slapped a % of shiachat members.

[Ali H Syed]

(bismillah)

thankyou for sharing brother!

[baradar_jackson]

Imam just slapped a % of shiachat members.

He didn't just slap them. He b-slapped them.

I want Imam Khomeini to be my valentine. :wub:

Edited November 11, 2011 by baradar_jackson

[beardedbaker]

He didn't just slap them. He b-slapped them.

I want Imam Khomeini to be my valentine. :wub:

what baradar meant to say was that he wants to study 'irfan under Imam Khomeini...

[DoubleAgent4]

Why is he comparing the life of infallible Imams to the 'Islamic' government...what Khomeini said regarding the personality of a leader is correct, but who's to say that Khamenei fits all these criterias...

[Ugly Jinn]

Why is he comparing the life of infallible Imams to the 'Islamic' government...what Khomeini said regarding the personality of a leader is correct, but who's to say that Khamenei fits all these criterias...

He does. He defined the position, he declared himself qualified, he elected himself (with influence), and he is justifying his position with this video. He is authenticating the position he himself holds.

He says something which I found interesting, "If a leader puts his foot like this, does even a small sin, he is not able to be a Supreme Leader". He is basically praising himself by praising the position he holds by stating he doesn't sin or hardly ever sins.

I'm not going to question his intentions, I'm sure he 'thought' it's the best option or solution to organize the society, but to state that those disagree with the position 'fear Islam' is untrue (there were many religious folks that didn't agree with the position).

Edited November 11, 2011 by Ugly Jinn

[baradar_jackson]

He does. He defined the position, he declared himself qualified, he elected himself (with influence), and he is justifying his position with this video. He is authenticating the position he himself holds.

He says something which I found interesting, "If a leader puts his foot like this, does even a small sin, he is not able to be a Supreme Leader". He is basically praising himself by praising the position he holds by stating he doesn't sin or hardly ever sins.

I'm not going to question his intentions, I'm sure he 'thought' it's the best option or solution to organize the society, but to state that those disagree with the position 'fear Islam' is untrue (there were many religious folks that didn't agree with the position).

He didn't choose to be wali faqih. It was a responsibility thrusted upon him. He took it.

The responsibility is a very big one.

In the West, leaders don't have to be thinkers. They don't have to be pious. They don't have to be ideologues. In fact, they don't even have to be administrators. They just need to be actors. They need to look good, talk good, give the right answers to questions. It's like a 4-year-long job interview: very little substance, mostly just image.

Look at Rick Perry. For one slip-up in the debate, he has lost his chance at being president.

But for embezzling money, warmongering, engaging in adultery, etc... that's no problem!

Sarkozy. Do Frenchmen have a problem with the fact that he and his ex-wife are both adulterers, and that he left his old wife for this nude model or whoever she is?

Or that other French president. Mitterand. The socialist. He was an adulterer too. No big deal!

In WF, the Leader has far greater responsibility than in any other system, because not only does a certain level of knowledge and consciousness and enlightenment is required of him, but the system interferes in his personal life as well! He cannot do what Mitterand and Sarkozy do. He cannot be a Berlusconi. He is deprived of the smallest material pleasures. His family is deprived from the privileges normally associated with being related to the head of state. Seyyed Ali Khamenei's kids, for example, are not allowed to own cars. In Iran, the owner of some krap private crook small company needs his children to have any car they like, with 10 ration cards so they can get cheap petrol.

All of this nonsense cronyism happens at even the smallest level, anywhere you go. But not at the highest level; the level where the privilege could be the most. Why? Because there is a Leader who abstains from even the smallest sins.

[DoubleAgent4]

Have you heard of Milgrams's experiments. If not go read up on it.

The legal and philosophic aspects of obedience are of enormous importance, but they say very little about how most people behave in concrete situations. I set up a simple experiment at Yale University to test how much pain an ordinary citizen would inflict on another person simply because he was ordered to by an experimental scientist. Stark authority was pitted against the subjects' [participants'] strongest moral imperatives against hurting others, and, with the subjects' [participants'] ears ringing with the screams of the victims, authority won more often than not. The extreme willingness of adults to go to almost any lengths on the command of an authority constitutes the chief finding of the study and the fact most urgently demanding explanation. Ordinary people, simply doing their jobs, and without any particular hostility on their part, can become agents in a terrible destructive process. Moreover, even when the destructive effects of their work become patently clear, and they are asked to carry out actions incompatible with fundamental standards of morality, relatively few people have the resources needed to resist authority

If you read up on his experiments you'll understand the above. What he proved is that ordinary people, when given power or when they see people in high authority they act in certain ways. There was another experiment where there were people placed in a police cell. Some of them were given police outfits to wear, even though it wasn't real. Straight away they began to conduct themselves differently.This just reminds me of a programme I watched last week where a well known psychologist, Derren Brown, was experimenting on the audience on how far would they go to ruin someone's life. See what a little bit of power does to ordinary people?

This is the exact same thing with some scholars. They think by wearing an ammama and their scholarly clothes they have the authority to do what they wish. No one dares to go against their words and hold high respect for them. Do you honestly believe that these people can't abuse their powers? Now you go ponder over that!

Edited November 11, 2011 by Hawraa29

[Ugly Jinn]

He didn't choose to be wali faqih. It was a responsibility thrusted upon him. He took it.

That's obviously false. Khomeini declared himself Supreme leader. Khomenei was the most influential man in Iran, he basically created the position, elected himself, and the ones that disagreed faced the consequences (off topic).

This is a prime example of conflict of interest. The first person to take the position of WF created it, defined it, and elected himself.

The rest of your post is comparing to the West which is irrelevant and off-topic.

Edited November 11, 2011 by Ugly Jinn

[baradar_jackson]

This is the exact same thing with some scholars. They think by wearing an ammama and their scholarly clothes they have the authority to do what they wish. No one dares to go against their words and hold high respect for them. Do you honestly believe that these people can't abuse their powers? Now you go ponder over that!

I agree, but I think you are the one who should ponder over it.

[repenter-gone4awhile]

Why is he comparing the life of infallible Imams to the 'Islamic' government...what Khomeini said regarding the personality of a leader is correct, but who's to say that Khamenei fits all these criterias...

I don't know, hmmms let's ask the 80 plus Ulama that elected him, and still elect him every year practically, unless you disregard them as well??

That's obviously false. Khomeini declared himself Supreme leader. Khomenei was the most influential man in Iran, he basically created the position, elected himself, and the ones that disagreed faced the consequences (off topic).

This is a prime example of conflict of interest. The first person to take the position of WF created it, defined it, and elected himself.

The rest of your post is comparing to the West which is irrelevant and off-topic.

Did the slap hurt? You seem very bruzed, so much so that you are frantically trolling.

[ShiaBen]

I'm not a big fan of Khameini and I've criticized him in the past for many of his actions and decisions in regards to mostly religious affairs rather than political ones. But I will say this, compared to the other ayatollahs available, he's one of the few, that are not willing to pimp this country out to the West. Guys like Sanaei, Montazeri, Shariatmadari, and many others, are/were obsessed with power for themselves. Imam was not stupid, Imam's extincts allowed him to come up with a reasonable decision to select Ayatollah Khameini.

Khameini and Imam are also very different kinds of ayatollahs. The current is very much more liberal, while the other was very conservative. But regardless of religiosity, Imam was the type of man to recognize people on the merit of personality and character (not religiosity), and as far as I can see, he made a fair decision.

And believe me, I'm sure if Khameini was some kind of truly "evil" corrupt leader, you can bet yourself he would have used his authoritative power to deliberately pick his 3rd cousin Moussavi (as many true dictators would have) as the president of Iran regardless if Ahmadinejad won by votes.

Edited November 13, 2011 by ShiaBen

[Fink]

Why is he comparing the life of infallible Imams to the 'Islamic' government...what Khomeini said regarding the personality of a leader is correct, but who's to say that Khamenei fits all these criterias...

And who is to say a person coming from a nation who waged war against innocent people for 8 years has any legiitmacy to speak on this issue?

I dont have any respect for you people anymore. I Never been a supporter of the clergy in Iran, but the lowest of the low are the instigators who want to impose their fantasy utopia on others.

Edited November 13, 2011 by Fink

[Ugly Jinn]

I'm not a big fan of Khameini and I've criticized him in the past for many of his actions and decisions in regards to mostly religious affairs rather than political ones. But I will say this, compared to the other ayatollahs available, he's one of the few, that are not willing to pimp this country out to the West. Guys like Sanaei, Montazeri, Shariatmadari, and many others, are/were obsessed with power for themselves. Imam was not stupid, Imam's extincts allowed him to come up with a reasonable decision to select Ayatollah Khameini.

It amazes me that a layman Shia would slander a Marjas/Ayatollahs because they have a different opinion on political matters and equate them to pimps.

Khamenei was not even a marja nor even an Ayatollah when Khomenei died. He was elevated overnight, he didn't earn it, unlike Saanei and Montazeri who did.

And speaking of pimps and the West, thanks for paying taxes living in California, they have one of the highest in the US. I'm sure the US used it wisely.

Edited November 13, 2011 by Ugly Jinn

[repenter-gone4awhile]

It amazes me that a layman Shia would slander a Marjas/Ayatollahs because they have a different opinion on political matters and equate them to pimps.

Khamenei was not even a marja nor even an Ayatollah when Khomenei died. He was elevated overnight, he didn't earn it, unlike Saanei and Montazeri who did.

And speaking of pimps and the West, thanks for paying taxes living in California, they have one of the highest in the US. I'm sure the US used it wisely.

It hurts doesn't it? :D

[S.hassan]

Khamenei was not even a marja nor even an Ayatollah when Khomenei died. He was elevated overnight, he didn't earn it, unlike Saanei and Montazeri who did.

And speaking of pimps and the West, thanks for paying taxes living in California, they have one of the highest in the US. I'm sure the US used it wisely.

As one of my elders say, taqleed to Saanaei would be problematic in itself because he was the head of the judicial council. There's a goos chance there he gave the wrong judgement and obviously would affect his adalah.

Edited November 13, 2011 by S.hassan

[Lanatin]

Vs?

Jking, loved the examples of Imam Ali's mundane life and the Prophet's humility.

[ShiaBen]

It amazes me that a layman Shia would slander a Marjas/Ayatollahs because they have a different opinion on political matters and equate them to pimps.

Khamenei was not even a marja nor even an Ayatollah when Khomenei died. He was elevated overnight, he didn't earn it, unlike Saanei and Montazeri who did.

And speaking of pimps and the West, thanks for paying taxes living in California, they have one of the highest in the US. I'm sure the US used it wisely.

1. I'm a student (How much taxes would I need to destroy Iran? Do you assume 99.9% of taxes go to the military?)

2. I'm born here (I never moved here like you implied).

3. What is it your business that he was promoted by the leader of Iran back then? Are you the leader of Iran? Who are you to get to decide whose fit for the position and whose not? On top of that, who really cares if Sanaei/Montazeri earned it or not. If they don't care about meeting the country's safety, expectations, and needs, they can mind their own business and stick to their current deeds. Perhaps if they were trusted by Imam, they would have been picked over Khameini, but that wasn't the case, life's not always fair is it, better luck next time :)

It would be one thing if Sanaei/Montazeri had their own differences (just like I'm sure Sistani has his own differences with Khameini and many others), but it's a completely different thing when Sanaei and Montazeri demand that they MUST have the supreme leader position. When some people are arrogant enough not to respect Imam's decisions, they don't deserve any respect at all, they've shown their faces. They don't even respect the laws of the country.

[Ugly Jinn]

1) It doesn't matter 'how much', the point is that 'you are' contributing. I'm applying your flawed logic to you, simple as that.

2) Never implied that you moved or not, it's irrelevant.

3) I'm no one to decide, just have an opinion, unless my position is elevated like Khamenei overnight. We all can't be that lucky.

And Saanei/Montezeri never demanded the position of WF, you lost credibility just by stating that.

[ShiaBen]

1) It doesn't matter 'how much', the point is that 'you are' contributing. I'm applying your flawed logic to you, simple as that.

2) Never implied that you moved or not, it's irrelevant.

3) I'm no one to decide, just have an opinion, unless my position is elevated like Khamenei overnight. We all can't be that lucky.

And Saanei/Montezeri never demanded the position of WF, you lost credibility just by stating that.

People don't have to state things out loud to mean them.

On top of that, you lost credibility by saying that I support the U.S. military just because I'm a resident of California.

[repenter-gone4awhile]

1) It doesn't matter 'how much', the point is that 'you are' contributing. I'm applying your flawed logic to you, simple as that.

2) Never implied that you moved or not, it's irrelevant.

3) I'm no one to decide, just have an opinion, unless my position is elevated like Khamenei overnight. We all can't be that lucky.

And Saanei/Montezeri never demanded the position of WF, you lost credibility just by stating that.

3. lol, so mujtahid + president,+ active in the warfront= overnight?

Yes it takes 1 night/day to be chosen for one thing, but the credits earned is not over one night, silly of you to suggest so.

Must sting a lot huh?

[baradar_jackson]

3. lol, so mujtahid + president,+ active in the warfront= overnight?

Yes it takes 1 night/day to be chosen for one thing, but the credits earned is not over one night, silly of you to suggest so.

Must sting a lot huh?

The funny thing is, brother repenter actually neglected to mention another point: imprisoned and tortured under the setamshahi regime.

The Leader's record and his credentials are undeniable.

[Ugly Jinn]

People don't have to state things out loud to mean them.

On top of that, you lost credibility by saying that I support the U.S. military just because I'm a resident of California.

I didn't specify anything regarding military, that's your addition, I'm just applying your logic regarding being a 'puppet' to you. That's all.

3. lol, so mujtahid + president,+ active in the warfront= overnight?

Yes it takes 1 night/day to be chosen for one thing, but the credits earned is not over one night, silly of you to suggest so.

You've failed to read the post clearly, but it's no surprise, you tend to just emphasis on insults. When Khomeini died, Khamenei wasn't even a Marja nor an Ayatollah, yet 'qualified' to be the absolute authority over society, an authority equivalent to Imam Ali. The constitution required a Supreme Leader to be a Marja, but the criteria was lowered in 1989.

Overnight promotion + Supreme Leader prerequisite lowered = Khamenei

Edited November 14, 2011 by Ugly Jinn

[repenter-gone4awhile]

I didn't specify anything regarding military, that's your addition, I'm just applying your logic regarding being a 'puppet' to you. That's all.

You've failed to read the post clearly, but it's no surprise, you tend to just emphasis on insults. When Khomeini died, Khamenei wasn't even a Marja nor an Ayatollah, yet 'qualified' to be the absolute authority over society, an authority equivalent to Imam Ali. The constitution required a Supreme Leader to be a Marja, but the criteria was lowered in 1989.

Overnight promotion + Supreme Leader prerequisite lowered = Khamenei

At least if you are going to plagiarize internet material instead of having a thought of your own, do it right and quote the whole thing.

You are such a wikipedia surfer:

At the time of Khomeini's death Khamenei was not a marja or even an ayatollah, and the Constitution of Islamic Republic of Iran required the Supreme Leader to be a marja. However, Ayatollah Khomeini had not been satisfied with the field of candidates to replace him and in April 1989, three months before his death, assigned a team to revise the constitution so that the Supreme Leader of Iran need only be an expert on Islamic jurisprudence and possess the "appropriate political and managerial skills".[27][37] This new amendment to the constitution had not been put to a referendum yet, so upon choosing Khamenei the Assembly of Experts internally titled him a temporary office holder until the new constitution became effective. The choice of Khamenei is said to be a political one,[38] but the "political elite" of the Islamic Republic "rallied behind Khamenei" and his status was "elevated overnight" from Hojjat ol-Islam to Ayatollah

So what you meant to say is that he became Ayatollah overnight. Yes, that is how it works, one day you are not Ayatollah, the next day you are.

So Ayatollah Khomeini who was the WF of that time, did not agree with the current candidates, and the political elite rallied behind ayatollah Khamenei who they thought was politically best fit for the position.

In conclusion it is not you who find the existence of WF of Rahbar illegitimate , it is he and millions of Shias who find you illegitimate. You are in fact, illegitimate in every way, manipulative, non debatable and last but not least, unoriginal.

I delight the irony of your attempts. The more you get agitated to answer, the more readers get to know you.

[Ugly Jinn]

At least if you are going to plagiarize internet material instead of having a thought of your own, do it right and quote the whole thing.

You are such a wikipedia surfer:

So what you meant to say is that he became Ayatollah overnight. Yes, that is how it works, one day you are not Ayatollah, the next day you are.

So Ayatollah Khomeini who was the WF of that time, did not agree with the current candidates, and the political elite rallied behind ayatollah Khamenei who they thought was politically best fit for the position.

In conclusion it is not you who find the existence of WF of Rahbar illegitimate , it is he and millions of Shias who find you illegitimate. You are in fact, illegitimate in every way, manipulative, non debatable and last but not least, unoriginal.

I delight the irony of your attempts. The more you get agitated to answer, the more readers get to know you.

I don't need to Wikipedia basic facts that most people know, but thanks for posting the reference, it pretty much gives events that took place to facilitate an unqualified candidate.

There are many who disagree with the position and/or the selection, even other MARJAS. So according to your faulty logic, these Marjas are illegetimate also. This is just politics not Islam, stop acting like this is sunnah. :angel:

And ofcourse you end your post with insults, no surprise there. ^_^

Edited November 14, 2011 by Ugly Jinn

[repenter-gone4awhile]

I don't need to Wikipedia basic facts that most people know, but thanks for posting the reference, it pretty much gives events that took place to facilitate an unqualified candidate.

There are many who disagree with the position and/or the selection, even other MARJAS. So according to your faulty logic, these Marjas are illegetimate also. This is just politics not Islam, stop acting like this is sunnah. :angel:

And ofcourse you end your post with insults, no surprise there. ^_^

:) i'm glad i helped!

As i said, i delight the irony of your attempts.

[ShiaBen]

Ugly Jinn

I can't take anything seriously from a poster with such a username (speaks for itself) and one that copy/pastes wikipedia a site that can be edited at any time making you an individual that lacks further credibility. On top of that, you have the audacity to claim that sanctions in Iran are caused by Dr. Ahmadinejad's speeches. This right here was your finest hour. The most ignorant thing you could have possibly said in all your angry rantings. I mean, really? Where have you been during the last 30+ years of the IRI? Did you not see the many waves of sanctions that have existed before Ahmadinejad? And the ones that will be continued to become implemented once his office term is over? This right here is fundamental ignorance.

And also whatever happens to the Iranian govt. is of their business ONLY, certainly none of yours. You're not a member of the Iranian govt. nor are you one that is actively involved in Iranian politics (i.e. voting someone to power for better or for worse), so your opinions merit no value when it comes to Ayatollah Khameini's legitimacy as supreme leader nor dies it have any value when it comes to Iranian politics for that matter.

Edited November 15, 2011 by ShiaBen

[Ugly Jinn]

Shia Ben,

I find the irony in your statement, "And also whatever happens to the Iranian govt. is of their business ONLY, certainly none of yours. You're not a member of the Iranian govt. nor are you one that is actively involved in Iranian politics", yet you can state your opinion. Do you know that WF has absolute authority over society, not just restricted to Iran or Iranians? That includes you and me, we are part of society, hence it is my business. Do a little more research, it's pretty easy nowadays with Google.

The irony gets even better when you accuse Marjas of being puppets to the West yet live in California paying taxes to the West. That's actually hilarious on it's own and you lose credibility.

And regarding Ahmedinjad, there has been more sanctions on Ahmadinejad's watch than any other president. These are facts to back up my argument. What do you have to counter this besides insults? Nothing.

Regarding Wikipedia, I never copy/pasted, I never do unless I reference it with a link. You can check all my 500+ posts as proof. And I hardly ever use Wikipedia as reference, it's not a good source. But I don't mind the false accusations, it's a typical reply from those that lack substance in posts. And using my username as a reason for losing credibility is just plain funny, but not surprising. Again, you need to deflect the topic with trivial off-topic verbiage.

And regarding Khamenei, I stated facts yet you couldn't make a counter-argument, and you chose to talk about my username, wikipedia, add some insults, whatever happens is none of my business, etc. , which again shows you really are clueless and are a typical blind follower.

Finally you made false statements stating Saanei and Montazeri demanded the position of WF, and are/were puppets. You really are clueless.

You won't win many debates with 'opinions', 'off topic remarks', and 'insults'.

Edited November 15, 2011 by Ugly Jinn

[repenter-gone4awhile]

Shia Ben,

I find the irony in your statement, "And also whatever happens to the Iranian govt. is of their business ONLY, certainly none of yours. You're not a member of the Iranian govt. nor are you one that is actively involved in Iranian politics", yet you can state your opinion. Do you know that WF has absolute authority over society, not just restricted to Iran or Iranians? That includes you and me, we are part of society, hence it is my business. Do a little more research, it's pretty easy nowadays with Google.

The irony gets even better when you accuse Marjas of being puppets to the West yet live in California paying taxes to the West. That's actually hilarious on it's own and you lose credibility.

And regarding Ahmedinjad, there has been more sanctions on Ahmadinejad's watch than any other president. These are facts to back up my argument. What do you have to counter this besides insults? Nothing.

Regarding Wikipedia, I never copy/pasted, I never do unless I reference it with a link. You can check all my 500+ posts as proof. And I hardly ever use Wikipedia as reference, it's not a good source. But I don't mind the false accusations, it's a typical reply from those that lack substance in posts. And using my username as a reason for losing credibility is just plain funny, but not surprising. Again, you need to deflect the topic with trivial off-topic verbiage.

And regarding Khamenei, I stated facts yet you couldn't make a counter-argument, and you chose to talk about my username, wikipedia, add some insults, whatever happens is none of my business, etc. , which again shows you really are clueless and are a typical blind follower.

Finally you made false statements stating Saanei and Montazeri demanded the position of WF, and are/were puppets. You really are clueless.

You won't win many debates with 'opinions', 'off topic remarks', and 'insults'.

Apparently "winning" the debates is the goal here, and the solution is Wikipedia and some finely hand picked news sources, and no logic or thought of our selves. All this at every cost, manipulating, being sneaky, etc.

Good Riddance!!!

Still must hurt a lot, that you try so hard, and yet you have nothing, absolutely nothing on Ayat.Khamenei :). Why do you bother little man? I mean greater men than you have tried, and failed miserably. Even their news and media have given up on Ayatollah Khamenei, and stick to Ahmadinejad, and even that is a fail. And you think, you can win "debates" by being a keyboard warrior? You haven't even understood the meaning of debate, and you want to win one? Debate is presenting facts, which you failed, then discussing them, which you failed. I can only imagine the frustration.

Troll on buddy :)

[Guest]

Repenter owns!

Ugly Jinn give it up and save face...

[0feedmeplz]

arnt marjas not allowed to have political power? can anyone see the abuse in this?

i think the people should be allowed to choose their leader...i know over here in the west its just as bad, but i would expect more from people claiming to follow imam e zamaan.

[repenter-gone4awhile]

arnt marjas not allowed to have political power? can anyone see the abuse in this?

i think the people should be allowed to choose their leader...i know over here in the west its just as bad, but i would expect more from people claiming to follow imam e zamaan.

Majlis Khobregan chooses the leader. Majlis khobregan is chosen by the people.

Basically, the leader is chosen by the people. Now some may comment and say the majlis is corrupt or whatnot, but that's how it is.