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In the Name of God بسم الله

Ennahda Party Wins Election In Tunisia

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  • Advanced Member

Next time you travel you might want to pay more attention to the people than the beer. Your facts are all wrong all over the place.

Honestly I'm not sure what Islamic laws says about regulating political speech, but certainly Tunisia and Egypt have not recently been Islamic societies. It was what people voted for when given the chance though. If you are saying there are no places where Islamic law is the social norm you should pay attention next time you travel.

I'm 99% sure the penalty for drinking in Islamic law isn't death. Not an expert in that department though. I am in fact not a Muslim.

You are tolerant of things you like. So are most people. I am not impressed. Lots of people like smoking pot in Sweden, if the criminal records are anything to go by. Shame on you for intolerantly making them do it secretively.

A lot of countries ban public consumption and/or sale of alcohol. Some US counties do. I've read quite a bit about economic history and development and I can't say that laws on the public consumption of alcohol have ever come up one way or the other. It is pretty much a non-factor. If you can show me an economics textbook that lists public drinking as a major support of economic progress I will eat it. I'm not sure where you get these ideas. It has no basis in common sense or science.

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You said the penalty for leaving Islam is death. And if Muslims are not allowed to drink they must leave Islam in order to be allowed. So I suppose they may not be punished for drinking. But executed for apostasy. Does it really matter which?

I met some very interesting people in the pubs in Kairo. I got the impression that if you wish to meet the Egyptian elite you should visit the pubs. Most of the persons I met there were rather high educatet and many of them could speak English or French or both. (As I am learning arabic I would have prefered to talk to them in Arabic, but I have not yet reached such a level) This was an enormous contrast to the world outside the pubs, where as I understand most people cannot even read their own language. And according to the persons in the pub - who were mostly Christians and therefor maybe rather biased - this is typical for Muslims and that Christians understand the value of education. They were complaining a lot about Islamic intolerance.

But whether or not Muslims can drink obviously depends on how you interpret the Quran. While talking to a man who was a very high educated engineer, I mentioned that I thought it is a pity that Muslims are not allowed to drink. "WHAT?"he said. "I am a Muslim. I drink. I drink every day."

So if Sharia laws are introduced I am sure Egypt will lose most of its intelligentsia that is so badly needed. And the same goes of course for all other countries.

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  • Advanced Member

Ok, religion 101 here. Breaking some rule of a religion =/= leaving it. If a person drinks alcohol that in no way means he is no longer Muslim, it means he has violated the code or 'sinned' in the usual English usage. It is perfectly possible for a Muslim to drink and remain Muslim and not be considered apostate. A Muslim drinking does not incur the death penalty for apostasy. That does not mean that his behavior is allowed or encouraged in that religion. Leaving Islam usually means publicly and repeatedly renouncing it. I'm not an expert on Islamic theology so anyone more expert here is welcome to correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that almost no amount of sinful behavior is enough to let a person tell another person that he isn't Muslim. That's why 'Takfiri' is an insult.

If you only see the pubs you will miss out on the vast majority of Egyptian society and come to a very skewed notion of what the country is about. Thus my comments on focusing on the people not the booze. You will meet a lot of Christians because they can drink according to the law and their religion.

Islamists are actually quite strongly represented in the educated classes but you won't meet them in the pubs. In fact they dominate a number of such professions, particularly the engineers IIRC. Any Egyptians out here feel free to correct me, I forget such details. Besides, Egypt (along with most of the rest of the ME) has over-produced educated personnel since the early Nasserite period, loosing a few will do it no great harm. If you are basing your view of Middle Eastern society on the people you meet in its bars you should really expand your horizons.

Also, if you are taking alcohol-centered trips, Egypt is a really, really bad place to go. People have been talking about how terrible Egyptian beer is since the Ancient Greeks. In Diocletian's edicts on prices it was half the price of every other beer in the Empire. Try a Christian quarter in Syria or Jordan, they have passable wines I'm told.

EDIT: Though if you learned most of what you know about Egypt in a Coptic bar, that might explain where you got some of the stranger ideas you mentioned, like the idea that Copts are somehow primarily responsible for Egypt's economic successes. I was wondering where that could possibly have come from. A desire to find anyone but Muslims to credit seemed the only logical suggestion, but maybe it's just your particular experiences and background rather than anti-Islamic flailing.

Edited by Akritas
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Of course my trip was not alcohol-centered. (And I would appreciate if you could abstain from such low argumentation.) There are a lot of things to see in Kairo. But the main reason for my trip was that I wanted to try to use my Arabic. Unfortunately I soon found out that my Arabic was too poor. It should have improved now. But I think next time I would like to visit a country where the dialect is is closer to standard Arabic - although educated people all over the Arab world can speak standard Arabic.

I admit that I got my information mostly from Copts. But they confirmed what I could read in the "Lonely planet" book that is very practical to use when you travel on your own. So of course a lot of the information may not be correct. But if the Copts are complaining, doesn´t it mean there must be something behind it?

Another thing that really disturbs me is hearing Muslims refering to the Arab umma as Islamic. Where is the freedom of religion? It is not fair against Christian and other Arabs who do not wish to identify themselves as Muslims. . Not to mention the death penalty for people who leave the Islamic faith. Disgusting!!!! Do you really think it should be accepted in a civilised country?

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Fine, but when you regularly demean and put down everyone else don't expect to be given the benefit of the doubt or treated with kid gloves.

Well, it means Copts don't like Muslims and vice versa. :P This is no secret. I'd be fairly cautious about making sweeping conclusions about an economy based on bar talk, most people don't know much about the details of economics in any country.

The word Ummah can mean a community of many kinds, including the Islamic religious community. The Arab Islamic community is Islamic by definition, so I'm not sure how that fact could be offensive. More of a tautology. Like everything else setting and context are the key.

I have no very strong opinion on apostasy laws. In practice social pressures are usually enough to prevent defection from a healthy identity group which is true of Islam as well. Piling more on top of that is overkill but a difference of degree rather than kind.

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So you think people should be prevented from independent thinking and drawing of conclusions? (And this will not have economic consequenses?)

I was brought up as a Christian. Does this mean I should be prevented from questioning the Christian faith as this could mean defection from the Christian identity group? (And I really hope you don´t think it would be OK to kill me if that was the result.)

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  • Advanced Member

I very much doubt Christianity was ever very central to your group identity, you are a Swede. A more realistic example would be liberalism. Strong social sanctions exist in Sweden for being hostile to the prevailing liberal ideology as you are very helpfully demonstrating.

As for legal action, I would not support it against backsliders or people who change their minds and quietly want to switch communities. To the degree this is done in Islam I am against it, I am not an uncritical admirer of Islamic law. If you vocally go renegade you should be ready to accept the consequences. If you don't have the mental fortitude to accept that you need to grow up. If you think your 'tolerance' means you allow totally free thought you are a fool. I'm speaking from personal experience here.

EDIT:

I don't expect such laws would have an great economic effect though, not alone. Social norms have far less to do with economic development than you seem to think.

Edited by Akritas
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It is true that most people - be it Christians or Muslims - see religion as group identity. They do not take faith seriously. But - believe it or not - I belonged to a group that took faith seriously. (Ever heard of Pentecostals or the Charismatic movement?) Jesus is our saviour and he has commanded us to preach the Gospel to all mankind. So our mission is to convert everyone - including Muslims - to Christianity. And once you have recieved Jesus as your saviour, how can you be quiet? Of course you should loudly proclame that you have met Jesus and realised how wrong you were before. Because this is what Jesus expects from you.

I still take religion seriously. But I have become a lot more sceptical against what is written in the Bible. I suppose I could be called a seeker. But believers who wish preach the Gospel in Muslim countries so that people there also can be saved, risk to become martyres. This is the result of intolerans.

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I am something of a Stoic. According the doctrine of that group, true freedom comes from within. There will always be consequences for acting against the wishes of a society. The key to freedom does not lie in eliminating them, that is impossible. It is probably impossible from the point of view of society and certainly from the point of view of an individual. The truly free man is one who can act without fear in pursuit of justice, including fear of death. I honor anyone who will risk things for their convictions, but have scant sympathy for those who expect to do so without consequences.

EDIT: Also, group identify does not mean people don't take religion seriously. If anything the reverse. Just compare the state of reigious beliefs in Sweden with those in the Islamic world, or even a European country like Ireland or Poland.

Edited by Akritas
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I honor anyone who will risk things for their convictions,

Like suicide bombers?

I prefer a society where you can market your conviction with peaceful arguments. This is the liberal way, which I find superior in the long run.

The female Ennahda Leader Suad Abdel-Rahim, seems rather liberal to me. So I think there is hope for Tunisia. I am more worried about Egypt. And of course the Copts have a lot more reason to be worried than I have. Intolerant Islam is a threat against mankind.

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  • Advanced Member

Actually if you take a look at the numbers the vast majority of immigrants to Europe are not on the dole and they play a pretty major role in its economy. Europeans are supposedly too lazy to do a lot of the jobs they do, if you want to play stereotypes. Plus a lot of economic migrants aren't Muslim to start with.See Eastern Europe. You also see the same sort of immigration with people from Latin America here in the US. Mexico obviously needs it women to step up the plate and wear less clothing to further their economic development.

In any case it's your choice to give them welfare and your choice to let them in, so to blame the Middle East for it is a little bit silly.

Not to forget how some crazies in Moscow are getting all fired up for the increasing number of people from Caucasian republics and former Soviet socialist republics moving there.

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  • Advanced Member

Maybe you could try to present an intelligent argument instead stupid remarks? This thread is about Ennahda and Tunisia. What is your opinion?

The only stupid remarks are the ones coming from your mouth, saying that Sharia sanctions the killing of christians and making spontaneous assertions on what principles an islamic society entails despite your evident ignorance of the subject matter in question. I've already presented my opinion on the Ennahda party if you haven't noticed already. Moreover when I boldly assert 'there's no such thing' I mean all the artificial labels concocted by the euroamericans like 'moderate Islam', 'radical Islam' , 'militant Islam' and 'Islamism' all of which have no relevance to the reality at hand.

I mean people actually imagine such divisions exist in the muslim world, whereas those who are educated in islamic literature and history know the only reason why such labels exist is that some muslims are more thorough in implementing the Quranic injunctions than others. When you try to inject islamic etiquette in the politics of a muslim majority country you're automatically labelled as an 'Islamist' who is not following the true Islam and that you merely believe in a political ideology.

Edited by La'nat Ma Man
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  • Advanced Member

Like suicide bombers?

I prefer a society where you can market your conviction with peaceful arguments. This is the liberal way, which I find superior in the long run.

The female Ennahda Leader Suad Abdel-Rahim, seems rather liberal to me. So I think there is hope for Tunisia. I am more worried about Egypt. And of course the Copts have a lot more reason to be worried than I have. Intolerant Islam is a threat against mankind.

Yes, exactly like suicide bombers. If something is worth killing for it should be worth dying for. This is common sense and justice.

The liberal way only seems to apply to other liberals, thus making it worth nothing. You pride yourself on tolerating everything, yet you cannot by sheer necessity tolerate anything opposed to that core belief. Yet who persecutes for anything other than a core belief? Liberal values are thus mere circular reasoning and hypocrisy. I prefer to judge thing based on their value, and you have nothing to of your own judge. This I suspect is why you end up in mere hedonistic nihilism. And if you have nothing but appetites that come from you know not where driving you thither and yon, then you are the most abject of slaves. Islam does not worry me, the effects of liberal 'values' and decadence do. At worst Islam can kill you, but your 'values' assault the essence of humanity. Not that it is really means anything to that concept to be assaulted them, but it is rather pathetic.

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I have to admit that I cannot really follow you. Maybe it has to do with my deficient english....

What do you mean with "cannot tolerate anything opposed to that core belief"? Which core belief are you talking about?

I can tolerate that people disagree with my values and that they express this. But why should I tolerate if they hurt me physically or prevent me from expressing my opinions?

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  • Advanced Member

More likely it has to do with me trying to express Greek philosophical ideas when I am tired and distracted, haha. Basically what I am saying is that it isn't really possible for any belief to tolerate ones opposed to its sine qua non. Fascism, Communism, whatever. None of these can be tolerated if they reach a point where they matter. A rise in fascist thought would be as much a threat to Sweden as the loss of Islam would be to Saudi Arabic. Due to this I find a belief that prides itself on tolerating non-core disagreements to be rather pointless, since honestly, who doesn't?

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  • 9 years later...
  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)
Quote

On Monday, for example, Saudi Arabia's Okaz daily newspaper had an entire front page on Tunisia with the headline, "Tunisia rises up against the Brotherhood" - a reference to opposition party Ennahda's links to the Muslim Brotherhood group.  

President Saeid announced the suspension of parliament, sacked the prime minister and assumed executive authority in the country on Sunday.

Opposition politicians from across the political spectrum have denounced the move, including Ennahda, the largest party in parliament.

Seeking to salvage the revolution's victory, lawmakers in Washington have been quick to demand action. 

Before his call for probes on the role played by Saudi Arabia and the UAE, Murphy expressed deep concern over the "political turmoil erupting" in Tunisia, calling for the country "to return to normal political order ASAP". 

"We should look at how to use our aid and other diplomatic tools to address this crisis," he said. 

Meanwhile, Republican Senator Lindsey Graham told the Washington Post that the Biden administration's failure to act quickly would have a devastating outcome and called for military intervention. 

"This is the place where the Arab world’s movement to representative government and democracy began, and it’s clear to me indecisiveness in the face of aggression is just going to destroy this movement,” Senator Graham said.

Source

Quote

As a former constitutional law professor, Saied is well aware of Article 80. Yet he is also an independent with a strong populist streak and no prior political experience, so he may be betting that his supporters’ anti-establishment sentiment and distaste for parties will insulate him from problematic interpretations of the law. ...

The Biden administration and Congress have rightly issued clear statements urging Tunisian officials to respect the constitution and uphold the nation’s democratic gains. Biden’s team should now press President Saied to clarify his roadmap for swiftly ending the crisis. ...

Accordingly, Washington should facilitate the loan while privately conveying to Saied that disbursement of funds will depend on him clearly articulating a democratic roadmap.

Source

Quote

Islamists’ Victory in Tunisia a Win for Democracy: Noah Feldman

The public also knows that Islamic democrats such as Ennahdha’s intellectual leader, Rashid Ghannouchi, were almost the only voices of resistance to the regime in the last 20 years. Likewise, in Egypt the Muslim Brotherhood has been the most important voice of resistance since the days of Gamal Abdel Nasser, whom Brotherhood members tried to assassinate. ...

Ennahdha’s Ghannouchi, exiled in Europe for decades, was a thought leader in the process of the Islamist embrace of equal citizenship and equal rights -- which makes it especially fitting that his party is playing a primary role in Islamist electoral politics.

(Noah Feldman, a law professor at Harvard University and the author of “Scorpions: The Battles and Triumphs of FDR’s Great Supreme Court Justices,” is a Bloomberg View columnist. The opinions expressed are his own.)

Source

It is interesting that the Zionists are calling for military intervention to support Ennahda in Tunisia.

Edited by Northwest
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