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Hannibal

Umar Ibn Sa`ad (la) Is Thiqah?

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Salams,

وَقَال أحمد بن عَبد الله العجلي: كان يروي عَن أبيه أحاديث، وروى الناس عنه.وهو الذي قتل الحسين، وهو تابعي ثقة.

Translation: Ahmad b. `Abd Allah al-`Ajli said [about `Umar b. Sa`ad]: He narrated hadiths from his father, and people narrated from him. He was the one who killed al-Husayn, and he is a tabi`i, reliable (thiqah).

Source:

المزي، يوسف بن الزكي عبدالرحمن أبو الحجاج (متوفاي742هـ)، تهذيب الكمال، ج 21، ص 357، تحقيق د. بشار عواد معروف، ناشر: مؤسسة الرسالة - بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1400هـ – 1980م.

العسقلاني الشافعي، أحمد بن علي بن حجر أبو الفضل (متوفاي852هـ) تهذيب التهذيب، ج 7، ص 396، ناشر: دار الفكر - بيروت، الطبعة: الأولى، 1404هـ – 1984م.

-------------------------------------

????????

Edited by Hannibal

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(salam)

(bismillah)

The arabic text mentions nothing about Omar ibn Saad, the english translation is incorrect.

Yes it does. It is under the section of `Umar bin Sa`ad in al-Mizzi's Tahdheeb al-Kamaal.

I posted this over 6 months back where I showed a pic taken from my personal copy of the page where al-Mizzi quotes al-`Ijli's statements. Also, if you go to Shu`ayb Aran'ut's taHqeeq of Musnad by Ahmad bin Hanbal, you'll see him grade hadeeth with `Umar bin Sa`ad in there as Hasan. Right after al-`Ijli's comments you have Yahya bin Mu`een saying "how can the killer of al-Hussayn be thiqah?".

Taken from my personal copy of al-Mizzi's Tahdheeb al-Kamaal:

post-41952-0-01346500-1311729815_thumb.j

(salam)

Edited by Nader Zaveri

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Cr*ppy, Cr*ppy Rijjal System.

Hey, he is reliable (thiqah), so what he is the killer of Imam Hussain (as).

He is not a liar, he is reliable (thiqah), he is just a killer.

Cr*ppy, Cr*ppy Rijjal System.

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Cr*ppy, Cr*ppy Rijjal System.

Hey, he is reliable (thiqah), so what he is the killer of Imam Hussain (as).

He is not a liar, he is reliable (thiqah), he is just a killer.

Cr*ppy, Cr*ppy Rijjal System.

"let not your biases make you turn away from justice"

If the rijal system is [Edited Out]py, then isn't the definition which made him "thiqah" and "tabei' also [Edited Out]py.

Why arn't you poking holes in this whole concept of tabei and also the basis on which some designate thiqah?

Yes, [Edited Out]py rijal system is [Edited Out]py but authentic and well researched rijal system is not.

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"let not your biases make you turn away from justice"

Salam brother,

Who devised the Cr*ppy, Cr*ppy Rijjal System, with only one witness requirement?

It was devised by none other than abu Bakr, in regards to Fadak, when he as a sole witness quoted the hadith that Children of the Prophet don't inherit. His first act as caliphaahaa.

He was the caliph, the judge, the jury, the prosecuting attorney and the sole witnesses of narrating the hadith. Thus, he set the precedent.

What were Sunnis to do later. Therefore, their Imam Bukhari (as) and their Imam Muslim (as), build around this sole witness a Cr*ppy, Cr*ppy Rijjal System.

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As-salamu alaykum

allahuma salli 3ala Muhammed ve 3ala alih Muhammed at-tayibina at-tahiriyn

The Rijal system ist weakest System i have ever seen.

Musnad bin Ahmed - Tahqiq Al Arnaut

ÞÇá ÃÍãÏ Èä ÍäÈá ËäÇ æßíÚ ËäÇ åÔÇã Èä ÓÚÏ Úä ÒíÏ Èä ÃÓáã Úä ÃÈíå Úä ÚãÑ ÑÖí Çááå Úäå ÞÇá

.....ÞÇá ÑÓæá Çááå Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÓáã : ãËá ÇáÐí íÚæÏ Ýí ÕÏÞÊå

ÞÇá ÇáÃÑäÄæØ: ÅÓäÇÏå ÍÓä ÑÌÇáå ËÞÇÊ ÑÌÇá ÇáÔíÎíä ÛíÑ åÔÇã Èä ÓÚÏ¡ Ýãä ÑÌÇá ãÓáã¡ æåæ ÍÓä ÇáÍÏíË.

ÇáãÓäÏ: Ì 1 Õ 445 ÑÞã [ 384

Al arnaut says the hadith is Isnaduhu HASAN, rijaluhu thiqat except Hisham bin Sa3d and he is hasan al Hadith! That means that Hisham bin Sa3d is good in Ahadith!

Now in an other hadith in Musnad Ahmed look what sheik al Nawasib al Arnaut says about Hisham bin Sa3d which is talking about the virtues of Imam al muwa7idiyn Ali (a.s.)

ÞÇá ÃÍãÏ Èä ÍäÈá: ËäÇ æßíÚ Úä åÔÇã Èä ÓÚÏ Úä ÚãÑ Èä ÃÓíÏ Úä Èä ÚãÑ: ÞÇá ßäÇ äÞæá Ýí Òãä ÇáäÈí Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÓáã ÑÓæá Çááå ÎíÑ ÇáäÇÓ Ëã ÃÈæ ÈßÑ Ëã ÚãÑ æáÞÏ ÃæÊí Èä ÃÈí ØÇáÈ ËáÇË ÎÕÇá áÃä Êßæä áí æÇÍÏÉ ãäåä ÃÍÈ Åáí ãä ÍãÑ ÇáäÚã ÒæÌå ÑÓæá Çááå Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÓáã ÇÈäÊå ææáÏÊ áå æÓÏ ÇáÃÈæÇÈ ÅáÇ ÈÇÈå Ýí ÇáãÓÌÏ æÃÚØÇå ÇáÑÇíÉ íæã ÎíÈÑ.

ÞÇá ÇáÃÑäÄæØ:ÅÓäÇÏå ÖÚíÝ. åÔÇã Èä ÓÚÏ ÖÚÝæå íßÊÈ ÍÏíËå ááãÊÇÈÚÇÊ æáÇ íÍÊÌ Èå.

ÇáãÓäÏ: Ì 8 Õ 416 ÑÞã [ 4797

Al Arnaut says this Hadith is da3if because of Hisham bin Sa3d and he is the one who makes the hadith da3if!

Subhanallah in an other hadith is he good in hadis, and then when he is narrating about the virtues about Imam Ali (a.s.) he is weak!!!

Mashallah what a System!!! That shows the hatred towards ahlul bayt!

The haqiqah is Hisham bin sa3d is Thiqat and good in hadis because even Muslim narrated from Hisham bin sa3d in his Sahih:

1893 1122 ÍóÏóøËóäóÇ ÚóÈúÏõ Çááóøåö Èúäõ ãóÓúáóãóÉó ÇáúÞóÚúäóÈöíõø ÍóÏóøËóäóÇ åöÔóÇãõ Èúäõ ÓóÚúÏò Úóäú ÚõËúãóÇäó ÈúäöÍóíóøÇäó ÇáÏöøãóÔúÞöíöø Úóäú Ãõãöø ÇáÏóøÑúÏóÇÁö ÞóÇáóÊú MEDIA-H1.GIF ÞóÇáó ÃóÈõæ ÇáÏóøÑúÏóÇÁöáóÞóÏú ÑóÃóíúÊõäóÇ ãóÚó ÑóÓõæáö Çááóøåö Õóáóøì Çááóøåõ Úóáóíúåö æóÓóáóøãó Ýöí ÈóÚúÖö ÃóÓúÝóÇÑöåö Ýöí íóæúãò ÔóÏöíÏö ÇáúÍóÑöø ÍóÊóøì Åöäóø ÇáÑóøÌõáó áóíóÖóÚõ íóÏóåõ Úóáóì ÑóÃúÓöåö ãöäú ÔöÏóøÉö ÇáúÍóÑöø æóãóÇ ãöäóøÇ ÃóÍóÏñ ÕóÇÆöãñ ÅöáóøÇ ÑóÓõæáõ Çááóøåö Õóáóøì Çááóøåõ Úóáóíúåö æóÓóáóøãó æóÚóÈúÏõ Çááóøåö Èúäõ ÑóæóÇÍóÉó

http://www.al-islam.com/portal.aspx?...6SectionID%3d2

The Nawasib make da3if what they want and sahih what they want :-)

va 3alaykum assalam

p.s. sorry because my english is not so good...your brother thulfikar

Edited by Hameedeh
Extremely small fonts (size 8-10) may be increased to a standard size (12-14) by a Moderator.

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p.s. sorry because my english is not so good...your brother thulfikar

Brother Thulfikar (Zulfiqar), you English is no weak, you are piety and therefore your eman is strong.

Thanks for posting the above.

May Allah in the love of AlhulBayt (as) give you and your family good in this life and afterlife too. Amin.

mother of god :o

erm, are any famous hadith that we know narrated by him?

Maybe, Mr. Zaveri who is expert in the Cr*ppy, Cr*ppy Rijjal System may post some. Though, I wouldn't hold my breath.

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(salam)

(bismillah)

I posted this over 6 months back where I showed a pic taken from my personal copy of the page where al-Mizzi quotes al-`Ijli's statements. Also, if you go to Shu`ayb Aran'ut's taHqeeq of Musnad by Ahmad bin Hanbal, you'll see him grade hadeeth with `Umar bin Sa`ad in there as Hasan. Right after al-`Ijli's comments you have Yahya bin Mu`een saying "how can the killer of al-Hussayn be thiqah?".

Here are some aHaadeeth that `Umar bin Sa`ad bin Abee Waqqaas narrates in Ahmad bin Hanbal's Musnad. According to Shu`ayb Aran'ut `Umar bin Sa`ad is sadooq (truthful), so that is the reason why his hadeeth are graded as Hasan, and not SaHeeH. Aran'ut says this about him "The men are (all) trustworthy, they are men from the saheehayn except `Umar bin Sa`ad, and he is from the men that al-Nisaa'i (narrated from), and he is sadooq" (ÑÌÇáå ËÞÇÊ ÑÌÇá ÇáÕÍíÍ ÛíÑ ÚãÑ Èä ÓÚÏ¡ Ýãä ÑÌÇá ÇáäÓÇÆí¡ æåæ ÕÏæÞ).

1492 - ÍóÏóøËóäóÇ ÚóÈúÏõ ÇáÑóøÒóøÇÞö¡ ÃóÎúÈóÑóäóÇ ãóÚúãóÑñ¡ Úóäú ÃóÈöí ÅöÓúÍóÇÞó¡ Úóäö ÇáúÚóíúÒóÇÑö Èúäö ÍõÑóíúËò¡ Úóäú ÚõãóÑó Èúäö ÓóÚúÏö Èúäö ÃóÈöí æóÞóøÇÕò¡ Úóäú ÃóÈöíåö¡ ÞóÇáó: ÞóÇáó ÑóÓõæáõ Çááåö Õóáóøì Çááåõ Úóáóíúåö æóÓóáóøãó: " ÚóÌöÈúÊõ áöáãõÄúãöäö¡ Åöäú ÃóÕóÇÈóåõ ÎóíúÑñ ÍóãöÏó Çááåó æóÔóßóÑó¡ æóÅöäö ÃÕóÇÈóÊúåõ ãõÕöíÈóÉñ ÍóãöÏó Çááåó æóÕóÈóÑó¡ ÝóÇáúãõÄúãöäõ íõÄúÌóÑõ Ýöí ßõáöø ÃóãúÑöåö¡ ÍóÊóøì íõÄúÌóÑó Ýöí ÇááõøÞúãóÉö íóÑúÝóÚõåóÇ Åöáóì Ýöí ÇãúÑóÃóÊöåö " (1)

Grading:

(1) ÅÓäÇÏå ÍÓä. æåæ Ýí "ãÕäÝ ÚÈÏ ÇáÑÒÇÞ" (20310) .

1487 - ÍóÏóøËóäóÇ ÚóÈúÏõ ÇáÑóøÍúãóäö¡ æóÚóÈúÏõ ÇáÑóøÒóøÇÞö ÇáúãóÚúäóì¡ ÞóÇáó: ÃóÎúÈóÑóäóÇ ÓõÝúíóÇäõ¡ Úóäú ÃóÈöí ÅöÓúÍóÇÞó¡ Úóäö ÇáúÚóíúÒóÇÑö Èúäö ÍõÑóíúËò¡ Úóäú ÚõãóÑó Èúäö ÓóÚúÏò¡ Úóäú ÃóÈöíåö¡ ÞóÇáó: ÞóÇáó ÑóÓõæáõ Çááåö Õóáóøì Çááåõ Úóáóíúåö æóÓóáóøãó: " ÚóÌöÈúÊõ ãöäú ÞóÖóÇÁö Çááåö ÚóÒóø æóÌóáóø áöáãõÄúãöäö¡ Åöäö ÃÕóÇÈóåõ ÎóíúÑñ ÍóãöÏó ÑóÈóøåõ æóÔóßóÑó¡ æóÅöäö ÃÕóÇÈóÊúåõ ãõÕöíÈóÉñ ÍóãöÏó ÑóÈóøåõ æóÕóÈóÑó¡ ÇáúãõÄúãöäõ íõÄúÌóÑõ Ýöí ßõáöø ÔóíúÁò ÍóÊóøì Ýöí ÇááõøÞúãóÉö íóÑúÝóÚõåóÇ Åöáóì Ýöí ÇãúÑóÃóÊöåö " (2)

Grading:

(2) ÅÓäÇÏå ÍÓä. ÓÝíÇä: åæ ÇáËæÑí¡ æÃÈæ ÅÓÍÇÞ: åæ ÚãÑæ Èä ÚÈÏ Çááå ÇáÓÈíÚí¡ æÞÏ ÇÖØÑÈ Úáíå Ýíå¡ ÇäÙÑ "ÇáÚáá" ááÏÇÑÞØäí 4/351-353.

1519 - ÍóÏóøËóäóÇ ÚóÈúÏõ ÇáÑóøÒóøÇÞö¡ ÃóÎúÈóÑóäóÇ ãóÚúãóÑñ¡ Úóäú ÃóÈöí ÅöÓúÍóÇÞó¡ Úóäú ÚõãóÑó Èúäö ÓóÚúÏò¡ ÍóÏóøËóäóÇ ÓóÚúÏõ Èúäõ ÃóÈöí æóÞóøÇÕò¡ ÞóÇáó: ÞóÇáó ÑóÓõæáõ Çááåö Õóáóøì Çááåõ Úóáóíúåö æóÓóáóøãó: " ÞöÊóÇáõ ÇáãÓáã ßõÝúÑñ æóÓöÈóÇÈõåõ ÝõÓõæÞñ¡ æóáÇ íóÍöáõø áöãõÓúáöãò Ãóäú íóåúÌõÑó ÃóÎóÇåõ ÝóæúÞó ËóáÇËóÉö ÃóíóøÇãò " (1)

Grading:

(1) ÅÓäÇÏå ÍÓä¡ æÇáÍÏíË ÕÍíÍ. ÃÈæ ÅÓÍÇÞ: åæ ÚãÑæ Èä ÚÈÏ Çááå ÇáÓÈíÚí.

1531 - ÍóÏóøËóäóÇ ãõÍóãóøÏõ Èúäõ ÌóÚúÝóÑò¡ ÍóÏóøËóäóÇ ÔõÚúÈóÉõ¡ Úóäú ÃóÈöí ÅöÓúÍóÇÞó¡ Úóäö ÇáúÚóíúÒóÇÑö¡ Úóäú ÚõãóÑó Èúäö ÓóÚúÏò¡ Úóäú ÃóÈöíåö ÓóÚúÏò¡ Úóäö ÇáäóøÈöíöø Õóáóøì Çááåõ Úóáóíúåö æóÓóáóøãó Ãóäóøåõ ÞóÇáó: " ÚóÌöÈúÊõ áöáãõÓúáöãö ÅöÐóÇ ÃóÕóÇÈóåõ ÎóíúÑñ ÍóãöÏó Çááåó æóÔóßóÑó¡ æóÅöÐóÇ ÃóÕóÇÈóÊúåõ ãõÕöíÈóÉñ ÇÍúÊóÓóÈó æóÕóÈóÑó¡ ÇáúãõÓúáöãõ íõÄúÌóÑõ Ýöí ßõáöø ÔóíúÁò ÍóÊóøì Ýöí ÇááõøÞúãóÉö íóÑúÝóÚõåóÇ Åöáóì Ýöíåö " (2)

Grading:

(2) ÅÓäÇÏå ÍÓä¡ ÑÌÇáå ËÞÇÊ ÑÌÇá ÇáÕÍíÍ ÛíÑ ÚãÑ Èä ÓÚÏ¡ Ýãä ÑÌÇá ÇáäÓÇÆí¡ æåæ ÕÏæÞ. =

There are more, but I think this is sufficient to show the his status in the eyes of Shu`ayb Aran'ut.

Here is what al-Albaani has to say about him (Taken from his Silsalah aHaadeeth al-SaHeeHah, vol. 5, pg. 297, hadeeth # 2298).

ÞáÊ : æ åÐÇ ÅÓäÇÏ ÑÌÇáå ËÞÇÊ ÑÌÇá ÇáÕÍíÍíä ÛíÑÚãÑ Èä ÓÚÏ ¡ æ åæ ÕÏæÞ .

Sunan al-Nisaa'i:

4104 ÃÎÈÑäÇ ÅÓÍÞ Èä ÅÈÑÇåíã ÞÇá ÃäÈÃäÇ ÚÈÏ ÇáÑÒÇÞ ÞÇá ÍÏËäÇ ãÚãÑ Úä ÃÈí ÅÓÍÞ Úä ÚãÑ Èä ÓÚÏ ÞÇá ÍÏËäÇ ÓÚÏ Èä ÃÈí æÞÇÕ Ãä ÑÓæá Çááå Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÓáã ÞÇá ÞÊÇá ÇáãÓáã ßÝÑ æÓÈÇÈå ÝÓæÞ .

al-Albaani's Grading:

ÕÍíÍ

(salam)

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Sunan al-Nisaa'i:

4104 أخبرنا إسحق بن إبراهيم قال أنبأنا عبد الرزاق قال حدثنا معمر عن أبي إسحق عن عمر بن سعد قال حدثنا سعد بن أبي وقاص أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قال قتال المسلم كفر وسبابه فسوق .

al-Albaani's Grading:

صحيح

lol. Who grades it Sahih, but none other than al-Bani the khabeth Wahhabi. He like khabeth Umar b. Sa`ad is hater of AhlulBayt (as).

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lol. Who grades it Sahih, but none other than al-Bani the khabeth Wahhabi. He like khabeth Umar b. Sa`ad is hater of AhlulBayt (as).

i dont understand: isnt the shia rule that nawasib cannot narrate our hadith?

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i dont understand: isnt the shia rule that nawasib cannot narrate our hadith?

Salam brother,

You mean like the Suni rule that hadiths narrated by Rafidis are weak, weak.

Brother, welcome to the Great, Great Rijjal System.

They will tell you it is Science.

Science is not based on personal prejudices and discrimination.

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*shrugs* never had much faith in it to begin with to be honest. part of the reason im not usooli.

lol brother, I thought it was the Akhbaris who believe in the hadiths and live in past based on these hadiths.

Wa' Salam.

What are you guys talking about? Of course Shias don't accept this guy. It is just Sunni rijal that is under discussion in this thread.

Do Sunni Rijjal differs from the Shia Rijjal?

Please explain?

Edited by aladdin

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Do Sunni Rijjal differs from the Shia Rijjal?

Please explain?

Of course it differs, but I'll leave it to someone who knows more about it to tell you how exactly. However, it is obvious that a Sunni deeming a narrator trustworthy means nothing to Shias, and vice-versa.

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Of course it differs, but I'll leave it to someone who knows more about it to tell you how exactly. However, it is obvious that a Sunni deeming a narrator trustworthy means nothing to Shias, and vice-versa.

You made a massive claim and you are not able to explain. How so?

Of course it differs, but I'll leave it to someone who knows more about it to tell you how exactly. However, it is obvious that a Sunni deeming a narrator trustworthy means nothing to Shias, and vice-versa.

What are you guys talking about? Of course Shias don't accept this guy. It is just Sunni rijal that is under discussion in this thread.

Are you capable?

Or, are you full of it?

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What are you guys talking about? Of course Shias don't accept this guy. It is just Sunni rijal that is under discussion in this thread.

ah...ok, all of a sudden that makes more sense ;)

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Cr*ppy, Cr*ppy Rijjal System.

Cr*ppy, Cr*ppy Rijjal System.

Cr*ppy, Cr*ppy Rijjal System.

Salam brother,

Who devised the Cr*ppy, Cr*ppy Rijjal System, with only one witness requirement?

Therefore, their Imam Bukhari (as) and their Imam Muslim (as), build around this sole witness a Cr*ppy, Cr*ppy Rijjal System.

Maybe, Mr. Zaveri who is expert in the Cr*ppy, Cr*ppy Rijjal System may post some. Though, I wouldn't hold my breath.

Brother, welcome to the Great, Great Rijjal System.

We get it, man.

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ah...ok, all of a sudden that makes more sense ;)

Salam brother,

The Shia Rijjal system is same as Sunni Rijjal system, which is one witness narrating the hadith. No matter, how we want to make sense out of it, it is still one witness narrating the hadith. We are fooling no one but ourselves, as it was abu Bakr who narrated the hadith of Fadak by himself being the sole witness. He didn't accept the witnesses of Bibi Fatima (as), as he was the sole judge, the sole caliphaahaa, the sole jury, the sole prosecuting attorney, and the sole witness of narrating the hadith that the Children of the Prophet don't inherit.

It was Mr. Bukhari and Mr. Muslim who built around the above precedent of one witness only, the Rijjal system and the so called Science of Hadith. The Shia adopted the same system with one exception.

This one exception makes the whole difference. I want either Haider Hasayn or his mentor Mr. Nader Zaveri to tell me what this exception is.

So far, Mr. Haider Hasayn has made the following statement.

What are you guys talking about? Of course Shias don't accept this guy. It is just Sunni rijal that is under discussion in this thread.

Of course it differs, but I'll leave it to someone who knows more about it to tell you how exactly. However, it is obvious that a Sunni deeming a narrator trustworthy means nothing to Shias, and vice-versa.

However, in the meantime, the Holy Quran requires at least 2, 3 or 4 witnesses for everything. This depending if the witnesses are males and/or females.

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Salam brother,

The Shia Rijjal system is same as Sunni Rijjal system, which is one witness narrating the hadith. No matter, how we want to make sense out of it, it is still one witness narrating the hadith. We are fooling no one but ourselves, as it was abu Bakr who narrated the hadith of Fadak by himself being the sole witness. He didn't accept the witnesses of Bibi Fatima (as), as he was the sole judge, the sole caliphaahaa, the sole jury, the sole prosecuting attorney, and the sole witness of narrating the hadith that the Children of the Prophet don't inherit.

You seem to be unaware of the fact that the accusation of one witness being sufficient holds no water in ilm ur rijal as there's also the number of narrators belonging to the Prophet's generation that is also taken to account; many of such hadiths are available in the earliest writings pertaining to the sunnah where the same hadith is narrated by more than twenty companions of the Prophet (a perfect example of such a hadith im talking about is the one about the prophetic legacy of the Kitabullah and the 'Itrat ). Such hadiths are labelled as mashhur (i.e. widely reported) whilst hadiths narrated by only one contemporary of the Prophet is called gharib .

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^^^^ But aren't hadith narrated by one person throughout the sanad considered Sahih or not?

Where, A narrated to B, and B narrated to C, and C narrated to D .............

One person narrating throughout the sanad considered Sahih or not?

mashhur known and gharib unknown doesn't make a difference when it comes to Sahih hadith.

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^^^^ But aren't hadith narrated by one person throughout the sanad considered Sahih or not?

Where, A narrated to B, and B narrated to C, and C narrated to D .............

One person narrating throughout the sanad considered Sahih or not?

They can be considered sahih depending on the trustworthiness of the narrator, but still will be labelled as gharib. If you like ill give you an example.

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They can be considered sahih depending on the trustworthiness of the narrator, but still will be labelled as gharib. If you like ill give you an example.

The definition of Arabic words, mashhur and gharib are known. No need for example for known words.

However, for hadith narration one witness is sufficient for both Sunni and Shia Rijjal System for hadith to be considered Sahih. Where as, the requirement of the Holy Quran is at least two witnesses for everything. So, this one witness requirement for narration of hadith is against the Holy Quran.

However, there is one significant difference in the so called, Science of Hadith between the Sunni and the Shia.

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Well then let's reject those hadiths which are gharib.

Almost all the hadiths with one person narrating them are Sahih/Hasan. If you reject them, then you will be left with only handful of hadiths.

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Almost all the hadiths with one person narrating them are Sahih/Hasan. If you reject them, then you will be left with only handful of hadiths.

Not true, theres literally over a thousand (if not thousands, which is probably more likely) mashhur hadiths out there.

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Not true, theres literally over a thousand (if not thousands, which is probably more likely) mashhur hadiths out there.

Give me example of one with the sanad.

That means you will have twenty sanads with different people in them. No same person in one of the sanad.

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Give me example of one with the sanad.

That means you will have twenty sanads with different people in them. No same person in one of the sanad.

I thought what concerned you was the witnesses only? If you are tolerant enough to accept the general meaning of mashhur, then thousands isn't true...evidently. But your main concern is the witnesses, and there's lots and lots of hadiths where many companions narrate the same matn (text); the companions are the witnesses here.

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I thought what concerned you was the witnesses only? If you are tolerant enough to accept the general meaning of mashhur, then thousands isn't true...evidently. But your main concern is the witnesses, and there's lots and lots of hadiths where many companions narrate the same matn (text); the companions are the witnesses here.

Look here is the Problem:

Hadith 1 : Sahih

Prophet > Companion A > B > C > D > E > F > G > H

Hadith 2 : Sahih

Prophet > Companion I > J > K > L > M > N > O > P

This all those narrating from the Prophet to Mr. Bukhari in hadiths 1 and 2, are only one person in the chain. One witness. Do you see the problem?

Now Hadith: 3 Sahih

Prophet > Companion A > B > C > D > E > F > G > H

Prophet > Companion I > J > K > L > M > N > O > P

See now the above meets the requirement of two witnesses in hadith 3, being narrated from the Prophet to Mr. Bukhari.

Hadith: 4 Sahih

But again this hadith has problem as it narrated in the chain by one person, even two companions narrate it, from the Prophet.

Prophet > Companion A > B > C > D > E > F > G > H

Prophet > Companion I > B > C > D > E > F > G > H

Companions A and I narrate from the Prophet, but the chain is only one person narrating to Mr. Bukhari. Now this hadith 4 has the same problems as hadiths 1 and 2.

Edited by aladdin

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