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MHSK2011

I Don't Understand This!

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You are not "our".

The proper sentence should be, "Point my mistake".

Actually the proper sentence would be "Point out my mistake" not "Point my mistake".

Anyway, is this tit-for-tat exchange really helpful to understanding our religion and answering the OP's questions?

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aladdin you could not even proof your belief and now your looking at other's mistake,Take a break,grow up!

lol, you mean don't be 17 years old.

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The reason you're not getting a straight answer is because you're not asking like a Muslim but more of a cynic.

Women on the other hand, who according to Muhammad, comprise the majority of Hell, should they make it into Paradise are destined to spend eternity with just the one man, their earthly husband. Regardless of whether he abused her, loved her or shared her with other wives, she has no choice but to continue to be chaste, loyal and also an onlooker at his exploits, now among his heavenly harem.

Regarding this divine brothel, the Quran tells us that the beauties there will have voluptuous breasts:

Q78:31-34 As for the righteous, they shall surely triumph. Theirs shall be gardens and vineyards, and high-bosomed women for companions; a cup full to the brim.

They are obviously pure, shy, young, beautiful virgins who have never been touched before, but waiting patiently for the believer to enter Paradise and initiate them into the delights of bodily pleasure:

From here.http://sites.google.com/site/islamicscripturesunveiled/Home/paradise_lust

Doesn't look like you looked it all up yourself.

None of the English translations say anything more than maidens, the original supposedly says no more than "large eyes"

Muhammad's description of this "virgin" was more of an angel. A red drink in a white glass depicts a more spiritual body, possibly closer to the original bodies of Adam and Eve before the forbidden/poison fruit.

Virgins don't remain virgins unless they are unisexual so chances are you can expect something that looks more like what they have hidden in area 51.

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The reason you're not getting a straight answer is because you're not asking like a Muslim but more of a cynic.

From here.http://sites.google....e/paradise_lust

Doesn't look like you looked it all up yourself.

None of the English translations say anything more than maidens, the original supposedly says no more than "large eyes"

Muhammad's description of this "virgin" was more of an angel. A red drink in a white glass depicts a more spiritual body, possibly closer to the original bodies of Adam and Eve before the forbidden/poison fruit.

Virgins don't remain virgins unless they are unisexual so chances are you can expect something that looks more like what they have hidden in area 51.

WOW!,Bro this topic is over,so please we don't need to argue on this!

Thanks for the link:~

Son of Placid

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Maybe the problem is on you that you cannot comprehend Sexual desire in jannah. You need to understand that reality in Jannah is different than on Earth, so such a sexual desires are for pure intention. They give pleasure and spiritual growth. So when example you see and eat Apple in jannah, you will feel its pleasure and also you will understand its spiritual sense, which from such a experience you will come closer to Allah (SWT) and understand His Blessing and His Mercy.

so I want to ask is heaven for lust only

No it is not for lust only.

AND WHY DOES QUR'AN HAVE SO MANY MEANINGS?TO CONFUSE?,DOES GOD WANT TO CONFUSE US???

To Guide different people with their current Imaan and Spiritual level.

Edited by Zufa

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WOW!,Bro this topic is over,so please we don't need to argue on this!

Thanks for the link:~

Son of Placid

I didn't see anything finalized, just you and Aladdin bouncing back n forth, and I wasn't arguing, just stating my opinion.

No need to thank me for the link. I meerly took "your words" and copied them into a search. This site came up word for word, amazing!

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Do you really respect such a site which does not deserve to link here (Have you even read that article)? Of course, sorry such article is with favour of Christian person who believe in non-lust Heaven. I think it is shameful act to read these atheist lunatic criticism about Abrahamic religions and amoung us (Muslims, Jews, Christians) there are people who attack each other with these articles.

I hope you are not one of them.

Edited by Zufa

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Do you really respect such a site which does not deserve to link here (Have you even read that article)? Of course, sorry such article is with favour of Christian person who believe in non-lust Heaven. I think it is shameful act to read these atheist lunatic criticism about Abrahamic religions and amoung us (Muslims, Jews, Christians) there are people who attack each other with these articles.

I hope you are not one of them.

Salam brother,

Both Placid and Son of Placid are now showing their true colors. They are both here to preach and convert unsuspecting Muslims into Christianity. It is a one person troll, in father and son tag team. They don't care for Islam and intentionally both of them are mistranslating Quran, as the missionaries do. They have been told umpteen times that they should not intentionally mistranslates the Holy Quran, but they persist in doing so.

But people are now seeing their true color and the mods/admin too, let them continue and they will dig themselves deep, deep ......

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I think it might be important to know who authored the web site given in Post 40:

Richard Dawkins is an atheist

Richard Dawkins

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Clinton Richard Dawkins, FRS, FRSL (born 26 March 1941), known as Richard Dawkins, is a British ethologist, evolutionary biologist and author. He is an emeritus fellow of New College, Oxford,[1] and was the University of Oxford's Professor for Public Understanding of Science from 1995 until 2008.[2]

Dawkins came to prominence with his 1976 book The Selfish Gene, which popularised the gene-centered view of evolution and introduced the term meme. In 1982 he introduced an influential concept into evolutionary biology, presented in his book The Extended Phenotype, that the phenotypic effects of a gene are not necessarily limited to an organism's body, but can stretch far into the environment, including the bodies of other organisms.[3]

Dawkins is an atheist and humanist, a Vice President of the British Humanist Association and supporter of the Brights movement. He is well known for his criticism of creationism and intelligent design.

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Hi Zufa,

I am sorry that such is even in print for atheists and critics to use.

Muslims have not realized it, but by assigning these hadiths to Muhammad, they have destroyed his credibility among non-Muslims who read such.

Because everything assigned to Muhammad had to be written before he died, --- it would indicate that in the daytime he was a minister to the people and at night, or in secret, he was writing (or dictating to someone) this immoral literature, which is contrary to the image that he had as a prophet of God.

I’d rather believe the statement that Muhammad said to his followers, “Don’t quote me as saying anything that isn’t in the Quran.”

--- Quite a difference, isn’t there?

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Salaam Aleikum,

Muslims have not realized it, but by assigning these hadiths to Muhammad, they have destroyed his credibility among non-Muslims who read such.

I do not agree with such a article because it contains lies and corrupt and arrogance analysis of Quranic verses. Indeed the heart of person will reflect on his sayings.

I’d rather believe the statement that Muhammad said to his followers, “Don’t quote me as saying anything that isn’t in the Quran.”

His life was all about Quran and practice. He said very important sayings to His followers, After me Follow Quran and my Ahlulbait (as).

Edited by Zufa

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^Yep even hearing his name makes me feel sadness. I think i have misunderstood Son of Placid, He just pasted the link where the OP copy pasted the information. My apologies.

No apoligies req'd, from you. You are well within your rights to question even the appearance of such a link, my intention was to expose the source of this thread.

As much as Aladdin would like you to believe I have a devious plan, please read my post #203 in Jesus 100% man 100% God.

The above mentioned site is as vile as ***.org, or answering-Christianity.net, (for that matter) and you will never see me use any of them.

I have a great respect for true Muslims, enough to tolerate the rest.

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What seems funny to me is that atheists and others criticize Islam based on its descriptions of paradise(yes, having sex with maidens, etc.), whereas, they would fight like mad to ensure their own right to every disgusting and depraved act, right here on Earth, to be enshrined in law.

And also I'd like to point out one thing, I'd infinitely prefer a religion that says in heaven people get to have sex with virgins, and here on Earth you stay away from those things, than a religion or philosophy which holds that you can do whatever you want here on Earth. If Islam is to be blamed for allowing imaginary people to have imaginary sex with other imaginary maidens in an imaginary place (Imaginary to them, that is), then atheists should be prepared to take flak for the reason that in the West people get up to all sorts of debauched behaviour, including for example:

1. Having parties where couples have sex with each other's spouses.

2. Having sex 10 to one ratio male to female.

3. Having Nudist camps, going about nude in public

4. Playing with all sorts of whips, lashes and torture devices

5. Even playing with, eating and drinking excrement

6. And you can go to wikipedia and look at the article called "paraphilia", if you want to disgust yourself more|

When I see all these, Islam seems to be a breath of fresh air, having sex with beautiful maidens in heaven is nothing compared to what some get up to here and how on Earth.

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What seems funny to me is that atheists and others criticize Islam based on its descriptions of paradise(yes, having sex with maidens, etc.), whereas, they would fight like mad to ensure their own right to every disgusting and depraved act, right here on Earth, to be enshrined in law.

And also I'd like to point out one thing, I'd infinitely prefer a religion that says in heaven people get to have sex with virgins, and here on Earth you stay away from those things, than a religion or philosophy which holds that you can do whatever you want here on Earth. If Islam is to be blamed for allowing imaginary people to have imaginary sex with other imaginary maidens in an imaginary place (Imaginary to them, that is), then atheists should be prepared to take flak for the reason that in the West people get up to all sorts of debauched behaviour, including for example:

1. Having parties where couples have sex with each other's spouses.

2. Having sex 10 to one ratio male to female.

3. Having Nudist camps, going about nude in public

4. Playing with all sorts of whips, lashes and torture devices

5. Even playing with, eating and drinking excrement

6. And you can go to wikipedia and look at the article called "paraphilia", if you want to disgust yourself more|

When I see all these, Islam seems to be a breath of fresh air, having sex with beautiful maidens in heaven is nothing compared to what some get up to here and how on Earth.

Not going to burst your bubble, but Christians are going to be some ticked if Muslims get maidens and they get "helpers".

According to the Bible there will be "helpers", people will not be married, nor remember life on earth. We will have a new body and a new name.

The new name I could see having to get used to, a new body I'm okay with. This one is wearing out already.

What you mention above does go on with Christian "looking" people, but true Christians are told to cling to one wife.

Bad deeds and porn run rampant in Christian "looking" people as well as Muslim "looking" people. Secularism is a strong evil force.

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There is things we need to understand of Shia Islamic viewpoint of Houries. They are very pure beings that we even call Fatima (as) as Human Hourie (Because of her pureness). They are our companions (or our wifes in different term) in Heaven and they will always remain Virgin. How?

Imam Sadiq (A) was asked: "How can a huri always be a virgin (no matter how many times her husband comes near her)?"

The Imam (A) answered: "Because (huris) are created from pure goodness where no blight can alter them, nor does decrepitude inflict them... menstruation does not pollute them..."

Definition of Houri:

However, the women in Heaven, whether they are 'houri' or 'human creatures', are purified and clean both from the point of outward dirt such as: blood, urine, feces, semen, menstruation, postpartal bleeding, excessive menstruation, dirtiness, and the like; and from the point of inward dirt such as: bad qualities of character, evil dispositions like: rancour, grudges, envy, habitual frowning, and the like of them; and also from the point of some hideous behaviours like: adultery, fornication, and all kinds of similar vices. They, having the total aspects and conditions of purification, are clean from all sorts of corruption and possess purity in its entirety.

Edited by Zufa

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Hi Zufa,

(Quote from Shiachat):

The Prophet (s,), in the last year of his life, is reported to have said:

"Verily, I am leaving with you two weighty things (thaqalayn): the Book of Allah and my kindred, my household, for indeed, the two of them will never separate until they return to me by the Pond [of Kawthar on the Last Day]." (End of quote).

It would seem that Muhammad's interest was in being re-united with his earthly family in the afterlife.

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Hi Zufa,

(Quote from Shiachat):

The Prophet (s,), in the last year of his life, is reported to have said:

"Verily, I am leaving with you two weighty things (thaqalayn): the Book of Allah and my kindred, my household, for indeed, the two of them will never separate until they return to me by the Pond [of Kawthar on the Last Day]." (End of quote).

It would seem that Muhammad's interest was in being re-united with his earthly family in the afterlife.

Please explain this more detailed.

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Hi MH,

(Quote from Shiachat):

The Prophet (s,), in the last year of his life, is reported to have said:

"Verily, I am leaving with you two weighty things (thaqalayn): the Book of Allah and my kindred, my household, for indeed, the two of them will never separate until they return to me by the Pond [of Kawthar on the Last Day]." (End of quote).

First, Muhammad left the Book in Arabic, the Quran. --- He didn’t leave any hadiths or theories supposedly from himself, because if they were inspired by God, they would have been included in the Quran

It would seem that Muhammad's interest was in being re-united with his earthly family in the afterlife.

--- This is also the understanding of Christians, that as we have families and loved ones on earth, we have the promise of being reunited in heaven. ---

As there is mutual love in earthly families, then their greatest expectation is to be together with the Lord in heaven

The Scripture says that “Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.”

--- Flesh and blood bodies are only for the earth, and made so they can reproduce, because mortal bodies die. The desires of the flesh are only from the blood body. --- However, Love will exist in the Spiritual resurrected body, which will be pure and holy before God.

1 John 1:

15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

16 For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world.

17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

Revelation 21: 1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.

2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.

4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

Edited by placid

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How many ways to skin a cat?

One way is to believe in Holy Trinity. Believe in Holy Father, Holy Son and Holy Spirit.

Another way is to believe, God is Two, He is Holy Father and Holy Spirit. And, the Holy Father has a Holy Son.

You owe aladdin much, as he has taught you much. But you wouldn't acknowledge this. Only way aladdin can succeeded if he can make you believe in pure Monotheism, thus being Sincere with yourselves.

Here is the Complete Surah on Sincerity:

Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him.

Al-Qur'an, 112.001-004 (Al-Ikhlas [sincerity])

Now aladdin is trying to teach you and your father, the Sincerity.

Ameen.

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Hi MH,

(Quote from Shiachat):

The Prophet (s,), in the last year of his life, is reported to have said:

"Verily, I am leaving with you two weighty things (thaqalayn): the Book of Allah and my kindred, my household, for indeed, the two of them will never separate until they return to me by the Pond [of Kawthar on the Last Day]." (End of quote).

First, Muhammad left the Book in Arabic, the Quran. --- He didn’t leave any hadiths or theories supposedly from himself, because if they were inspired by God, they would have been included in the Quran

It would seem that Muhammad's interest was in being re-united with his earthly family in the afterlife.

--- This is also the understanding of Christians, that as we have families and loved ones on earth, we have the promise of being reunited in heaven. ---

As there is mutual love in earthly families, then their greatest expectation is to be together with the Lord in heaven

The Scripture says that “Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.”

--- Flesh and blood bodies are only for the earth, and made so they can reproduce, because mortal bodies die. The desires of the flesh are only from the blood body. --- However, Love will exist in the Spiritual resurrected body, which will be pure and holy before God.

1 John 1:

15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

16 For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world.

17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

Revelation 21: 1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.

2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.

4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

I see you're still spreading your poison... ma3leish.

He didn't leave any Hadiths or theories? Is he a scientist or a Prophet?

You still like to cherry-pick verses, so I guess you must've overlooked this one:

مَا ضَلَّ صَاحِبُكُمْ وَمَا غَوَىٰ ﴿٢وَمَا يَنطِقُ عَنِ الْهَوَىٰ ﴿٣ إِنْ هُوَ إِلَّا وَحْيٌ يُوحَىٰ ﴿٤عَلَّمَهُ شَدِيدُ الْقُوَىٰ ﴿٥

Your comrade erreth not, nor is deceived; (2) Nor doth he speak of (his own) desire. (3) It is naught save an inspiration that is inspired,(4) Which one of mighty powers hath taught him, (5)

All his actions and all his words are divinely inspired. The same applies to his holy Household (as). This verse is absolute, and not limited by any constraining factors, therefore, anything he says must be taken as obligation and a direct command from God. Therefore those that only stick to the Quran and leave the Ahlul Bayt have deviated, and those that stick to the Ahlul Bayt and leave the Quran have deviated. The Prophet (pbuh) and his household (as) are equal with the Quran and are inseparable. Their knowledge is one and the same.

Why should his teachings be included in the Quran? They are different levels of existence. Your comparing generalities with detail. You're assuming the fundamentals and the ellaborations and explanations need to appear in the same format. That's like saying a university book on mathematics needs to contain theories, formulas, explanations and the professors commentary all in one. who needs universities then? who needs professors? who needs teachers? who needs prophets and guides? why doesn't God just inspire each and every one of us directly?

I know you know too much about Islam to answer any of these questions, so I won't expect a response. You keep insulting and denigrating our beliefs and our Prophets and Imams (by limiting their existence knowledge of the universe to this earthly life), I just hope you'll have a good answer on the day of judgment handy.

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I see you're still spreading your poison... ma3leish.

I know you know too much about Islam to answer any of these questions, so I won't expect a response. You keep insulting and denigrating our beliefs and our Prophets and Imams (by limiting their existence knowledge of the universe to this earthly life), I just hope you'll have a good answer on the day of judgment handy.

Well said brother,

Wa' Salam.

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Hi Contented,

Quote from Post 58:

He didn't leave any Hadiths or theories? Is he a scientist or a Prophet?

Response: --- The ‘theory’ you put forth of a selfish and sensual heaven, ‘for men only,’ has no basis in the Quran, does it?

However, the following verses, from Surah 46, seem to express what was revealed to Muhammad:

Surah 46:12. And before this, was the Book of Moses as a guide and a mercy: And this Book confirms (it) in the Arabic tongue; to admonish the unjust, and as Glad Tidings to those who do right.

13. Verily those who say, "Our Lord is God," and remain firm (on that Path), - on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

14. Such shall be Companions of the Gardens, dwelling therein (for aye): a recompense for their (good) deeds.

15. We have enjoined on man kindness to his parents: In pain did his mother bear him, and in pain did she give him birth. The carrying of the (child) to his weaning is (a period of) thirty months. At length, when he reaches the age of full strength and attains forty years, he says, "O my Lord! Grant me that I may be grateful for Thy favour which Thou has bestowed upon me, and upon both my parents, and that I may work righteousness such as Thou mayest approve; and be gracious to me in my issue. Truly have I turned to Thee and truly do I bow (to Thee) in surrender."

16. Such are they from whom We shall accept the best of their deeds and pass by their ill deeds: (They shall be) among the Companions of the Garden: a promise! of truth, which was made to them (in this life).

--- (I would rather believe this, as showing equality for men and women, based on their faith in God and ‘righteousness.’)

Quote: You still like to cherry-pick verses, so I guess you must've overlooked this one:

مَا ضَلَّ صَاحِبُكُمْ وَمَا غَوَىٰ ﴿٢﴾وَمَا يَنطِقُ عَنِ الْهَوَىٰ ﴿٣﴾ إِنْ هُوَ إِلَّا وَحْيٌ يُوحَىٰ ﴿٤﴾عَلَّمَهُ شَدِيدُ الْقُوَىٰ ﴿٥﴾

Your comrade erreth not, nor is deceived; (2) Nor doth he speak of (his own) desire. (3) It is naught save an inspiration that is inspired,(4) Which one of mighty powers hath taught him, (5)

Response: --- These verses are from Surah 53, ‘The Star,’ which is an early Meccan Surah and verse 1 says, “By the Star when it goes down.’

Mr Pickthall’s footnote says that this refers to the appearance of Gabriel to Muhammad and is verifying to his comrades that it was true.

Since the revelations through Muhammad were inspired by God through Gabriel, then they were truly --- “An inspiration that is inspired, which One of Mighty powers has taught him.” --- However, this was revealed when he started his Mission to remove idolatry from Arabia, not when he wrote his final Surah.

Quote: All his actions and all his words are divinely inspired. The same applies to his holy Household . This verse is absolute, and not limited by any constraining factors, therefore, anything he says must be taken as obligation and a direct command from God. Therefore those that only stick to the Quran and leave the Ahlul Bayt have deviated, and those that stick to the Ahlul Bayt and leave the Quran have deviated. The Prophet and his household are equal with the Quran and are inseparable. Their knowledge is one and the same.

Response: --- The Ahlul Bayt that is mutually agreed upon is ‘his household,’ --- His daughter, Fatima, his son in law Ali, his grandsons Hassan and Hussain.

At the time of Muhammad’s death, he had no great grandchildren, did he?

Some have considered this to include his wives, and some consider unborn descendants, and some include the Imams after Hussain.

If you believe it referred to all the Imams, then you are part of the group that believe it that way, but you have to acknowledge that there are others who don't.

The ‘first’ that he left was the Quran, written in Arabic, so it was not a translation from previous Scriptures, though it contains the basic History and names Prophets from the OT (and the Gospel origin and message from the NT), which the revelations of Gabriel to Muhammad confirmed in Surah 46:12 above.

Later I will give 3 good reasons why I don’t believe that your ‘theory’ of heaven could have come from Muhammad.

Placid

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Hi Contented,

Quote from Post 58:

He didn't leave any Hadiths or theories? Is he a scientist or a Prophet?

Response: --- The ‘theory’ you put forth of a selfish and sensual heaven, ‘for men only,’ has no basis in the Quran, does it?

Placid

which theory was that? which post, which thread? when did I ever say that?

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بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

Brother, keep in mind that the public of the Prophet (SAWA) was man and not female. What do you know of Paradise, is it like earth [filled with disease caused by the first disease]? You have chosen to argue with us regarding it luxuries and it is rewards. God has described for us and His Prophet the Paradise, you can therefore not disagree about this unless you excuse God of lying. Hence, no one of us have seen the Paradise, thus you cannot disagree with the Qur'an.

I shall give you the definition of Paradise through Wikipedia:

"Paradise is a place in which existence is positive, harmonious and timeless. It is conceptually a counter-image of the miseries of human civilization, and in paradise there is only peace, prosperity, and happiness. Paradise is a place of contentment, but it is not necessarily a land of luxury and idleness."

The Image of Paradise God has given us through the Qur'an is the truth. Even though you might not like it:

The Prophet (SAWA) said, 'The truth is bitter and heavy, and falsehood is sweet and light.'

Have you not read the Book of God:

[50:16] And We have already created man and know what his soul whispers to him, and We are closer to him than [his] jugular vein [surat Qaf]

You are talking with us about reuniting with God. Have you forgotten that God is closer to you them your jugular vein? God is everywhere. Hence, you limited the Omnipresent to Paradise and the Day of Judgement. Our Lord knows what we want and what our soul whispers to us.

It is of man's nature to be rewarded for a good deed, you cannot disagree. Not a single man would not want what God has promised the truthful and faithful amongst us.

If no one of us were rewarded, the system of doing good - be rewarded with better - and do bad - be rewarded with worst - would fail like the example of snare attached to a system. Not just is it that a tyrant gets the same reward as the pious and weak servant.

You might then ask about worshiping God in the Paradise?

Have you not heard about Bait-ul-Ma'mur?

[52:4] And by the Bait-ul-Ma'mur [surat at-Tur]

It is a house located in the seventh Heaven parable to the Ka'bah at Makkah, which is continuously visited by the Angels. It is a house of worshiping for the inhabitants of Paradise.

Brother, lastly I would like to be alert for you have just worshiped the Christian friend of yours. Your heart has been tendered because of his speech, have you not been warned?

[3:7] It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding. [surat 'Ali 'Imran]

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Hi Mun31,

Quote from Post 63:

What do you know of Paradise?

Response: --- You have covered a lot in your Post so let’s start with one of the verses you used from Surah 50:

Because I am criticized for using verses out of context, and trying to ‘interpret’ them back to Muslims, I will be careful just to ask questions that you can answer

So here is the whole context of Surah 50, Yusuf Ali:

15. Were We then weary with the first Creation, that they should be in confused doubt about a new Creation?

16. It was We Who created man, and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him: for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein.

17. Behold, two (guardian angels) appointed to learn (his doings) learn (and noted them), one sitting on the right and one on the left.

18. Not a word does he utter but there is a sentinel by him, ready (to note it).

19. And the stupor of death will bring Truth (before his eyes): "This was the thing which thou wast trying to escape!"

20. And the Trumpet shall be blown: that will be the Day whereof Warning (had been given).

21. And there will come forth every soul: with each will be an (angel) to drive, and an (angel) to bear witness.

22. (It will be said:) "Thou wast heedless of this; now have We removed thy veil, and sharp is thy sight this Day!"

23. And his Companion will say: "Here is (his Record) ready with me!"

24. (The sentence will be:) "Throw, throw into Hell every contumacious Rejecter (of God)! –

25. "Who forbade what was good, transgressed all bounds, cast doubts and suspicions;

26. "Who set up another god beside God: Throw him into a severe penalty."

27. His Companion will say: "Our Lord! I did not make him transgress, but he was (himself) far astray."

28. He will say: "Dispute not with each other in My Presence: I had already in advance sent you Warning.

29. "The Word changes not before Me, and I do not the least injustice to My Servants."

30. One Day We will ask Hell, "Art thou filled to the full?" It will say, "Are there any more (to come)?"

31. And the Garden will be brought nigh to the Righteous, - no more a thing distant.

32. (A voice will say:) "This is what was promised for you, - for every one who turned (to God) in sincere repentance, who kept (His Law),

33. “Who feared (God) Most Gracious Unseen, and brought a heart turned in devotion (to Him):

34. "Enter ye therein in Peace and Security; this is a Day of Eternal Life!"

35. There will be for them therein all that they wish, - and more besides in Our Presence.

36. But how many generations before them did We destroy (for their sins), - stronger in power than they? Then did they wander through the land: was there any place of escape (for them)?

37. Verily in this is a Message for any that has a heart and understanding or who gives ear and earnestly witnesses (the truth).

Questions:

15. Are not ‘they’ the unbelievers that this is speaking to?

16. Does man not have a soul or intellect that speaks to him secretly?

17. Is not the “We” who are closer to him than his jugular really two angels, one on each side of him? Or is it God?

18. Is not one of them a ‘recording angel’ that writes down everything he says?

19. Is it not common that death comes to all?

20. Is this not the same trumpet that is blown in the Book of Revelation?

21. Are not the two angels from 17 identified as ‘a guardian or guiding’ angel, and a ‘recording’ angel?

22. Will it not be said to the unbeliever, “You were heedless of this”? Was God saying, “Now see your sin clearly”?

23. Does not the record reveal what the inner being thinks and says? And does this not condemn him?

24. Is the just sentence not, “Throw him into hell”?

--- Does this compare to Revelation 20?

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

26. What other gods did he have? Perhaps his own ambitions and desires?

29. Does God ever do injustice to his servants, or the unbelievers?

30. Is this a question to Satan, to fulfill Surah 7:18?:

--- He (God) said: Go forth from hence, degraded, banished. As for such of them as follow thee, surely I will fill hell with all of you.

31. Will the unbelievers have a glimpse of heaven so they know what they have forfeited?

32. Was the Garden (of delights) limited to those ‘who turned to God in sincere repentance, and who kept His Law’? --- Would you say that these were ones who were sinners and knew they could not save themselves?

33. Was the reward reserved for those who feared (had reverential respect for) God and ‘brought a heart turned in devotion to Him’?

34. Are these the ones only that will enter into Eternal Life?

35. Is this a description of heaven? Is it restricted to those who are devoted to God? --- Will the rewards of heaven be enjoyed in the presence of God?

36. Does this say many are lost because of their sin?

37. Is this a Message of truth to those who have understanding?

--- Would you be interested in knowing that a parallel to these verses is written in the NT? --- Wouldn’t it be natural for Gabriel to reveal the same truth to Muhammad that was already written in the prophecies of the Book of Revelation?

Placid

Edited by placid

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Questions:

16. Does man not have a soul or intellect that speaks to him secretly?

It is your freewill, it is your mind speaking to you, telling you to do good or evil.

17. Is not the “We” who are closer to him than his jugular really two angels, one on each side of him? Or is it God?

God is closer to man than his own jugular vain. Nothing to do with two angels.

18. Is not one of them a ‘recording angel’ that writes down everything he says?

Both of them are 'recording angels'. One records the good deeds and the other one records the bad deeds. The one who records the bad deeds is under the command of one, who records the good deeds. This is not Christianity, the angels didn't and don't revolt against God in Islam.

All angels are good, there are no good or bad angels.

23. Does not the record reveal what the inner being thinks and says?

Yes, again this is not Christianity. If one think bad but not act upon it, one gets good credit for it as he/she committed a good deed.

And does this not condemn him?

No, in fact if bad thoughts are not acted upon, one gets good credit for it.

34. Are these the ones only that will enter into Eternal Life?

If you think that Garden and Hell are eternal then it doesn't make God, the First and Last. With Him becomes the Garden and Hell last too. Do you understand what First and Last mean.

BTW, why Garden where there are trees and rivers flows. Hardly any trees and rivers flowing in the desert. Get it.

35. Is this a description of heaven? Is it restricted to those who are devoted to God? --- Will the rewards of heaven be enjoyed in the presence of God?

No one will see God, just right now you cannot see God. God is not a human being, so that we can see Him. Did Moses see God.

You know so little of Islam, and being so shameless you try to teach Muslim their own religion. You try to impose Christianity on Islam, rather than learn Islam and be open minded about it.

Edited by aladdin

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Contented,

The theory I referred to was with reference to the article by the Atheist from the link in Post 40.

1. --- This is the first reason why I don’t believe this came from Muhammad:

While I don’t believe any of his conclusions, or his defaming of Muhammad, the information he used had to come from hadiths and Muslim writing.

For instance, after speaking of the ‘pleasures‘ of heaven for men, he says this,

Quote: Women on the other hand, who according to Muhammad, comprise the majority of Hell, should they make it into Paradise are destined to spend eternity with just the one man, their earthly husband. Regardless of whether he abused her, loved her or shared her with other wives, she has no choice but to continue to be chaste, loyal and also an onlooker at his exploits, now among his heavenly harem. --- End of quote.

Quote: Muhammad’s imagination did not allow for any awe inspiring concept of enlightenment in the hereafter. No unfolding bliss with some transcendental spiritual awakening for the soul. No special reunion with parents, children, friends, relatives. No stimulating knowledge that would reveal the secrets of the universe unknown to mere mortals. Not even equality for women. It is a picture merely concerned with appealing to the base instincts of men, longing for a supremely opulent version of earthly regal, lustful life. --- End of quote.

By contrast, --- in the Introduction to the Pickthall Translation, he says this,

Quote: “In those last 10 years, he (Muhammad) destroyed Idolatry in Arabia; raised women from the status of a chattel to complete equality with men; effectually stopped the drunkenness and immorality which had till then disgraced the Arabs; made men to live with faith, sincerity and honest dealing; transformed tribes who had been for centuries content with ignorance, into a people with the greatest thirst for knowledge; and for the first time in history made universal human brotherhood a fact and principle of common law. --- End of quote.

If Muhammad restored women to the status of ‘equality with men’ and effectively stopped the ‘drunkenness and immorality,’ which are the disgrace of any society, --- then he restored his society to the worship of God and ‘honorable living.’ --- This was done with God’s guidance, and it was not till after Muhammad’s death that things began to slip back, was it?

2. --- The second reason is the revelations given to Muhammad.

In the Quotation, “I leave you two things, the Quran, and my family, who will one day meet me by the Pool (in Paradise).” --- (Not exact wording)

--- Muhammad’s grandson, Hassan, was born in 624, so he would have been 8 years old when Muhammad died in 632. --- Hussain was born in 626, so he would be 6 years old. So Muhammad had no great grandchildren. His family consisted of the five who he knew, and ‘who followed him in faith.’

In Surah 52, after speaking of the inevitable hell for unbelievers, ending with:

16. "Burn ye therein: the same is it to you whether ye bear it with patience, or not: Ye but receive the recompense of your (own) deeds."

17. As to the Righteous, they will be in Gardens, and in Happiness, -

18. Enjoying the (Bliss) which their Lord hath bestowed on them, and their Lord shall deliver them from the Penalty of the Fire.

19. (To them will be said:) "Eat and drink ye, with profit and health, because of your (good) deeds."

20. They will recline (with ease) on Thrones (of dignity) arranged in ranks; and We shall join them to Companions, with beautiful big and lustrous eyes.

21. And those who believe and whose families follow them in Faith, - to them shall We join their families: Nor shall We deprive them (of the fruit) of aught of their works: (Yet) is each individual in pledge for his deeds.

Sher Ali: 21. And those who believe and whose children follow them in faith - with them will WE join their children. And WE will not diminish anything from the reward of their works. Every man stands pledged for what he has earned.

--- This verse verifies that believing families will be together in Paradise, does it not?

3. --- The third reason is concerning Jihad.

Jihad means ‘struggle,’ does it not? --- And the first meaning was that after ‘Submission to God’ (which is what ‘Islam’ means), --- Jihad is the ‘inner struggle’ in yielding one’s will to the will of God, is it not?

In the 10 translations on ‘Quranbrowser’ --- the only one to use Jihad is the contemporary Hilali Khan (who was born in 1967), --- and most times he puts it in brackets. --- His concept, seems to mean ‘Holy War’ against the world.

Since the word is not used in the nine translations it would prove that Jihad was not used in the Arabic Quran, so it was not used by Muhammad.

--- However, in the article, Jihad is mentioned 9 times, and attributed to Muhammad --- so obviously came from a later date when, because of their wars of aggression, it took on the new meaning.

The two verses that mention fighting in Surah 2 were revealed in the first or second year of the Hijrah in Madina, when they were going to be attacked by the idolaters from Mecca, --- (which they were every year till about year six).

In Mecca, they had been persecuted but not attacked as they were going to be after moving to Madina.

2:190. “Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! God loveth not aggressors.”

--- Would this not mean that they were not to attack, but only defend themselves if they were attached for their faith in God?

2:216. Warfare is ordained for you though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that you hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that you love a thing which is bad for you. God knows, you know not.

--- Does it not mean that in their new relationship with God, they loved peace and hated war. --- However, God ‘ordained’ warfare against those who attacked them.

What was ‘good’ about the conflicts was that God displayed His power in giving Muhammad the victory, which protected them and strengthened their faith to trust Him more, --- but it also killed many of the hardened enemies against them.

I believe I have the right to an opinion so I will keep my high regard for Muhammad that I get from the Quran, rather than have it tainted by such contradictions.

That's all for this topic, you can have the last word, or words.

Placid

Edited by placid

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On Mohammad's death, he had four grandchildren and not two. Only the two grandchildren form part of the five, Mohammad, Fatima, Ali, Hassan and Hussain. The two granddaughters of Mohammad, the daughters of Fatima and Ali called, Zainab and Umm al-Khultum don't form part of the five.

It was Zainab, who woke up the Muslims after the massacre of Hussain and the entire family in Karbala.

Jihad is mentioned many times in the Holy Quran, in different context.

Hilali and Khan are two different persons, and not one person. Afghan Khattak heritage Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din al-Hilali and Pakistani Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan, whose translation of Quran was sponsored by the Wahhabi government of Saudi Arabia. Remember, 9/11 and Wahhabis.

Jihad al-nafs, struggle against one's inner self.

Jihad bil-kalam, struggle with pen.

Jihad bil-lishan, struggle with tongue.

Jihad ad-din, struggle for religion.

Edited by aladdin

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Hi Mun31,

Quote from Post 63:

What do you know of Paradise?

Response: --- You have covered a lot in your Post so let’s start with one of the verses you used from Surah 50:

Because I am criticized for using verses out of context, and trying to ‘interpret’ them back to Muslims, I will be careful just to ask questions that you can answer

So here is the whole context of Surah 50, Yusuf Ali:

15. Were We then weary with the first Creation, that they should be in confused doubt about a new Creation?

16. It was We Who created man, and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him: for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein.

17. Behold, two (guardian angels) appointed to learn (his doings) learn (and noted them), one sitting on the right and one on the left.

18. Not a word does he utter but there is a sentinel by him, ready (to note it).

19. And the stupor of death will bring Truth (before his eyes): "This was the thing which thou wast trying to escape!"

20. And the Trumpet shall be blown: that will be the Day whereof Warning (had been given).

21. And there will come forth every soul: with each will be an (angel) to drive, and an (angel) to bear witness.

22. (It will be said:) "Thou wast heedless of this; now have We removed thy veil, and sharp is thy sight this Day!"

23. And his Companion will say: "Here is (his Record) ready with me!"

24. (The sentence will be:) "Throw, throw into Hell every contumacious Rejecter (of God)! –

25. "Who forbade what was good, transgressed all bounds, cast doubts and suspicions;

26. "Who set up another god beside God: Throw him into a severe penalty."

27. His Companion will say: "Our Lord! I did not make him transgress, but he was (himself) far astray."

28. He will say: "Dispute not with each other in My Presence: I had already in advance sent you Warning.

29. "The Word changes not before Me, and I do not the least injustice to My Servants."

30. One Day We will ask Hell, "Art thou filled to the full?" It will say, "Are there any more (to come)?"

31. And the Garden will be brought nigh to the Righteous, - no more a thing distant.

32. (A voice will say:) "This is what was promised for you, - for every one who turned (to God) in sincere repentance, who kept (His Law),

33. “Who feared (God) Most Gracious Unseen, and brought a heart turned in devotion (to Him):

34. "Enter ye therein in Peace and Security; this is a Day of Eternal Life!"

35. There will be for them therein all that they wish, - and more besides in Our Presence.

36. But how many generations before them did We destroy (for their sins), - stronger in power than they? Then did they wander through the land: was there any place of escape (for them)?

37. Verily in this is a Message for any that has a heart and understanding or who gives ear and earnestly witnesses (the truth).

Questions:

15. Are not ‘they’ the unbelievers that this is speaking to?

16. Does man not have a soul or intellect that speaks to him secretly?

17. Is not the “We” who are closer to him than his jugular really two angels, one on each side of him? Or is it God?

18. Is not one of them a ‘recording angel’ that writes down everything he says?

19. Is it not common that death comes to all?

20. Is this not the same trumpet that is blown in the Book of Revelation?

21. Are not the two angels from 17 identified as ‘a guardian or guiding’ angel, and a ‘recording’ angel?

22. Will it not be said to the unbeliever, “You were heedless of this”? Was God saying, “Now see your sin clearly”?

23. Does not the record reveal what the inner being thinks and says? And does this not condemn him?

24. Is the just sentence not, “Throw him into hell”?

--- Does this compare to Revelation 20?

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

26. What other gods did he have? Perhaps his own ambitions and desires?

29. Does God ever do injustice to his servants, or the unbelievers?

30. Is this a question to Satan, to fulfill Surah 7:18?:

--- He (God) said: Go forth from hence, degraded, banished. As for such of them as follow thee, surely I will fill hell with all of you.

31. Will the unbelievers have a glimpse of heaven so they know what they have forfeited?

32. Was the Garden (of delights) limited to those ‘who turned to God in sincere repentance, and who kept His Law’? --- Would you say that these were ones who were sinners and knew they could not save themselves?

33. Was the reward reserved for those who feared (had reverential respect for) God and ‘brought a heart turned in devotion to Him’?

34. Are these the ones only that will enter into Eternal Life?

35. Is this a description of heaven? Is it restricted to those who are devoted to God? --- Will the rewards of heaven be enjoyed in the presence of God?

36. Does this say many are lost because of their sin?

37. Is this a Message of truth to those who have understanding?

--- Would you be interested in knowing that a parallel to these verses is written in the NT? --- Wouldn’t it be natural for Gabriel to reveal the same truth to Muhammad that was already written in the prophecies of the Book of Revelation?

Placid

Peace will be upon you! Your questions are many but your answers are few. What are you searching for?

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Hi Mun3t,

Sorry if what I responded to you was confusing. It was meant to emphasize the way mankind is monitored from his ‘age of accountability,’ to his death.

--- Because the verse you quoted is used to say that ‘God is closer to us than our jugular vein,’ --- That gives the impression that God is sitting on each one’s shoulder and figuratively monitors what goes through the ‘jugular vein,’ which is a main vein from the heart to the brain.

However, the following verses in the context explain it in Surah 50:

16. It was We Who created man, and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him: for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein.

17. Behold, two (guardian angels) appointed to learn (his doings) learn (and noted them), one sitting on the right and one on the left.

18. Not a word does he utter but there is a sentinel by him, ready (to note it).

Pickthall: 16. We verily created man and We know what his soul whispereth to him, and We are nearer to him than his jugular vein.

Shakir: 16. And certainly We created man, and We know what his mind suggests to him, and We are nearer to him than his life-vein.

--- God would be a poor Manager if He personally had to sit on everyone’s shoulder when He has myriads of Angels to serve Him.

--- And verses 17-18:

Pickthall: When the two Receivers receive (him), seated on the right hand and on the left,

18. He uttereth no word but there is with him an observer ready.

Shakir: 17. When the two receivers receive, sitting on the right and on the left.

18. He utters not a word but there is by him a watcher at hand.

---Since the ‘fall’ of Adam and Eve from grace and favor with God, as in Surah 7:

16. He (Iblis, Satan) said: "Because thou hast thrown me out of the way, lo! I will lie in wait for them on thy straight way:

17. "Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left: Nor wilt thou find, in most of them, gratitude (for thy mercies)."

18. (God) said: "Get out from this, disgraced and expelled. If any of them follow thee, - Hell will I fill with you all.

19. "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden, and enjoy (its good things) as ye wish: but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."

20. Then began Satan to whisper suggestions to them, bringing openly before their minds all their shame that was hidden from them (before): he said: "Your Lord only forbade you this tree, lest ye should become angels or such beings as live for ever."

21. And he swore to them both, that he was their sincere adviser.

22. So by deceit he brought about their fall: when they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: "Did I not forbid you that tree, and tell you that Satan was an avowed enemy unto you?"

23. They said: "Our Lord! We have wronged our own souls: If thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy Mercy, we shall certainly be lost."

24. (God) said: "Get ye down. With enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood, - for a time."

--- Since that time that Satan ‘by deceit brought about their fall,’ (22), --- he has been ‘whispering’ to his minds of men.

God does know the kind of things in man’s mind, and to each man God appoints two ‘accompanying angels’ to monitor him.

One is like a ‘guardian,’ or ‘guiding’ angel and the other one is a ‘recording’ angel.

The angels may not know what his soul or mind thinks, or determines to do from the ‘good and evil’ influences in his life, but the ‘recording’ angel writes down everything he says and does. --- This ‘record’ is there at the judgment so that no one can argue that God is unjust or unfair to them. God has the ‘record’ and the two ‘witnessing angels.’

And notice the following verse in Surah 50:

19. And the stupor of death will bring Truth (before his eyes): "This was the thing which thou wast trying to escape!"

--- Everyone wants to live their own life, while disregarding a personal relationship with God, --- and then go to heaven, but the following verses say:

22. (It will be said:) "Thou wast heedless of this; now have We removed thy veil, and sharp is thy sight this Day!"

23. And his Companion will say: "Here is (his Record) ready with me!"

24. (The sentence will be:) "Throw, throw into Hell every contumacious Rejecter (of God)! –

Placid

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Islam is not Christianity. There are no guardians angels in Islam like in Christianity. Both angels are recording angels. One angel is recording the good deeds and the other angel is recording bad deeds. The angel who is recording the bad deeds is under command of the angel who is recording the good deeds.

The angels knows what his soul and mind thinks. A good and/or bad intention which is not acted upon earns a good deeds, therefore the angel who is writing the good deeds, have to write them down. Again, Islam is not Christianity.

You should be ashamed trying to teach Muslims their own religion and trying to impose Christianity on Islam.

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