When It Comes To Zanjeer And Tatbir - Beware!

[Alam Dar]

بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ الرَّحِيمِ

Salam dear brothers and sisters,

I have found many people attacking this issue, but please beware, there is a continuous battle against the Husayni rituals.

Everyone mourns differently, and no one knows what intention lies in the bosom of their fellow man.

Almost everyone that attacks Zanjeer and Tatbir is averse to it based on personal beliefs, we are Muslims and as such are bound by Gods law not our own law.

If you have studied this subject and come to the conclusion that it is wrong then it is forbidden upon you and not others.

If you do taqleed of a Jurist who forbids this then it is forbidden upon you and those that also follow him.

If you have studied to the point that you become a Jurist (Faqeeh) and come to this conclusion also, then it becomes forbidden on those that do your Taqlid.

This isn't a subject that is open for discussion when clearly the vast majority of Jurists in the last century or so support it and the bare minimum oppose it.

With due respect to all our brothers and sisters with contrary opinions, a Jurist is an expert on Islamic Law. Now you wouldn't be informing a Cardiologist on how to perform a triple bypass surgery.

So leave the Fiqh to the Jurists,

I have never taken part in Zanjeer or Tatbir, nor firewalking or any of these types of mourning. I personally am not convinced in doing them, but because I'm ignorant in Islamic Law and realise they have been made permissible by many notable Jurists, I'm not willing to use my very limited knowledge to make attacks on these rituals

Fear God and know that we will all be accountable for our actions (E-actions included)

May Allah bless you all, and grant you prosperity, good health, and guidance upon the upright path.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Alam Dar

[Replicant]

There's already millions of threads on this issue, why make another one?

It will just turn ugly with people attacking each other.

[shabberhaider]

i wrote a response, but in light of the above i deleted it :)

[Alam Dar]

There's already millions of threads on this issue, why make another one?

It will just turn ugly with people attacking each other.

I'm assuming you read my post, if you have then your question should be answered, I hope you don't reply to things without knowing what is being written, it would make you look like you don't care for others observations.

[Replicant]

I'm assuming you read my post, if you have then your question should be answered, I hope you don't reply to things without knowing what is being written, it would make you look like you don't care for others observations.

I have read what you have written.

Just wait until the conflict between the members starts...

[shabberhaider]

lol, u guys sound like u are 'conflicting' among yourselves heheh

[Aly ReZa]

I have a question that before coming to this site I have never seen any1 against it but here its unbelieveable that so many peoples are against it??

Really I am totally in a shock that how can people say all this about kama zani.

I will like to know that is there any country except then indo-pak who in which shias perform it??

May Allah s.w.t keep us on a right path and give people taufeeq to find the truth.

[Maula Dha Mallang]

we are not catholics that we can only approach god through a priest. christianity and judaism were destroyed by their priests interfering in things which did not concern them.

[Alam Dar]

we are not catholics that we can only approach god through a priest. christianity and judaism were destroyed by their priests interfering in things which did not concern them.

The Jurists are by no means our connection with God, Imam al Mahdi (as) is. But they are the professionals in the field of deducing Islamic Law from the Quran and Hadith.

The Quran speaks of Prayer and without the laws extracted from the traditions of our Prophet (saw) we would not know how.

[Haydar Husayn]

This is a discussion board, and people are going to discuss all kinds of issues on it, including controversial ones. I don't see anything wrong with that. So what if those who are against this stuff want to give their reasons why they don't think it should be practiced? Why does it bother you so much?

[Alam Dar]

This is a discussion board, and people are going to discuss all kinds of issues on it, including controversial ones. I don't see anything wrong with that. So what if those who are against this stuff want to give their reasons why they don't think it should be practiced? Why does it bother you so much?

Giving their opinion is one thing, but they are attacking it with extreme prejudice. It bothers me to see Muslims act in a manner as such, when they are above this, so I'm only advising them as Allah tells us to remind one another, as it is of benefit.

[Haydar Husayn]

Giving their opinion is one thing, but they are attacking it with extreme prejudice. It bothers me to see Muslims act in a manner as such, when they are above this, so I'm only advising them as Allah tells us to remind one another, as it is of benefit.

Can you give an example of this extreme prejudice that you see? Because personally I don't notice it much, but that may be because of my own bias.

I see it more as a bunch of people being oversenstive about something that they love, but can't easily defend in a rational way, and this leads to them debating in a very emotional fashion.

I don't see those who are against these rituals making the kind of personal attacks that are made by the defenders of these rituals. For example, that anyone who is against it is a Wahhabi, a Yazidi, a muqassir, and who knows what else. I don't see them writing in a hysterical way, using caps and loads of exclamation marks. I don't see them bearing grudges against those who defend it, and carrying the argument over into other threads.

Like I said, it could be because of my bias, but I see all the issues being with the other side, and it's not exacly hard to provide proof of what I am saying.

[Alam Dar]

The attacks are from both sides don't get me wrong brother, I'm just wishing everybody to tread carefully that is all.

And no you haven't shown any bias, the majority of posters do discuss with good Islamic ethics and that is why you may have not noticed, but a large minority tend to make personal attacks and take the liberty to formulate their own religious opinions. I just wanted to remind everyone that is all.

[A true Sunni]

The attacks are from both sides don't get me wrong brother, I'm just wishing everybody to tread carefully that is all.

And no you haven't shown any bias, the majority of posters do discuss with good Islamic ethics and that is why you may have not noticed, but a large minority tend to make personal attacks and take the liberty to formulate their own religious opinions. I just wanted to remind everyone that is all.

I am glad that you have 'clarified' your original statement. If you read your original statement it seems to admonish those that are against blood letting firewalking etc claiming that they are doing it because of personal beliefs. All this without any attempt to admonish the blood letters.

I reality it is the blood letters who are committing these acts trying to bring them into the fold of Islam. It is their personal belief that blood letting is a legitimate form of mourning.

If you wish to resort to looking at jurists positions then it is important to look at living jurists positions rather then long deceased ones. The obvious reason is that firstly alive jurists will issue rulings based on the the current situation. Secondly it is easier to forge or misrepresent the position of a deceased jurist then it is an alive one.

Recent debates have demonstrated that Azadari4Imam website had added words to the translation of a ruling from Ayatullah Naenni changing its meaning and import

[Ali_Hussain]

I was just watching this, and i really struck me, those who defend tabir, and the zionists who defend israel, behave in the exact same way, illogical arguments, over emotional, don't accept facts, unable to debate with any calmness or ratinality. The whole argument of both only make sense if you choose to have a narrow minded view of things in which the only outcome of things is that you can only be in the right, and everyone else in wrong.

take these two arguments often (lets face it, always) used by both, the similarities are scary

pro tatbiri people say all of those who are aginst it are maqassirs, yazidis etc

pro israel people say all those who are against it are holocauste deniers, hitler etc

there are many other ways that both groups argue along the same line, but no need to mention them. I'm not saying the pro tatbir people are like the zionsts, but the logic they use is the same

Edited October 15, 2011 by Ali_Hussain

[A true Sunni]

Jews also believe that they are special people because of a unique relationship with God that isnt 'understandable' to outsiders

Pro-blood letters believe that they are special because of a unique relationship with the Ahlebait that isnt understandable to outsiders

[Aly ReZa]

Jews also believe that they are special people because of a unique relationship with God that isnt 'understandable' to outsiders

Pro-blood letters believe that they are special because of a unique relationship with the Ahlebait that isnt understandable to outsiders

So don't understand

Who cares

[S.hassan]

Jews also believe that they are special people because of a unique relationship with God that isnt 'understandable' to outsiders

Pro-blood letters believe that they are special because of a unique relationship with the Ahlebait that isnt understandable to outsiders

Same goes for random people on Internet forums who think they can put regulations on mourning for Aba Abdillah (as). That's not our jurisdiction, nor is it yours.

[A true Sunni]

So don't understand

Who cares

Your lack of understanding is obvious , that is a common theme in your postings. As to you not caring that is where you are culpable , there is no need to celebrate or not care about 'lack of understanding' as you do.

Same goes for random people on Internet forums who think they can put regulations on mourning for Aba Abdillah (as). That's not our jurisdiction, nor is it yours.

Mourning for the Imams is regulated by themselves. If you choose to ignore their recommendations because somehow you think you know better well woe be on you

[S.hassan]

Mourning for the Imams is regulated by themselves. If you choose to ignore their recommendations because somehow you think you know better well woe be on you

Where was it regulated?

[Ali_Hussain]

Where was it regulated?

From Abee BaSeer from one of them (عليه السلام) “about the words of Allaah (عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ): ‘So give glad tidings to my servants, those who listen to the word, and follow the best thereof’ (39:17-18). ‘They are the Muslims of the Family of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), when they hear the Hadeeth they execute like they have heard it, without increasing and without decreasing in it.’”

Source:

1. Al-Mufeed, Al-IkhtiSaaS, Muqaddimah (Introduction), pg. 5

http://www.revivinga...h-strictly.html

40 hadith azadari

http://www.al-islam.org/azadari_40hadith/

Edited October 15, 2011 by Ali_Hussain

[Aly ReZa]

Your lack of understanding is obvious , that is a common theme in your postings. As to you not caring that is where you are culpable , there is no need to celebrate or not care about 'lack of understanding' as you do.

Again I am telling I don't care what pepl say about me I am the way I am

[A true Sunni]

Again I am telling I don't care what pepl say about me I am the way I am

Then stop calling yourself Muslim or Mohib-e-Ahle Bait and I will stop bothering you. I dont care what Hindus or Sikhs do they dont claim to be Muslim.

[Aly ReZa]

Then stop calling yourself Muslim or Mohib-e-Ahle Bait and I will stop bothering you. I dont care what Hindus or Sikhs do they dont claim to be Muslim.

I think you have forgot the insult which you got in that matam during ziyarat thread.

Speak in good akhlaq if I will turn up you will be like your 3 so called caliphs running here and there.

[thenamelessone]

Giving their opinion is one thing, but they are attacking with extreme prejudice. It bothers me to see Muslims act in a manner as such,

(bismillah)

(salam)

Same here! Here is some of a tafsir from al-Mizan http://www.shiasource.com/al-mizan/self/tafsir-5-15-19/

The Way of Thinking to which the Qur'an Guides

No doubt, man's is a life of reflection that requires perception and discernment; we call it faculty of thought. So the life is built on thought. It follows that the more correct and comprehensive the thought is, the more appropriate and sound the life will be. Whatever system a man follows and whichever path he treads upon, his good life is linked to, and bound with, proper thought; as much share it takes from that thought, that much uprightness it enjoys.

Allah has repeatedly described it in His Great Book in different ways and various styles: Is he who was dead then We raised him to life and made for him a light by which he walks among the people, like him whose likeness is that of one in utter darkness whence he cannot come forth? (6:122). Say: "Are those who know and those who do not know alike?" (39:9). Allah will exalt those of you who believe, and those who are given knowledge, in high degrees (58:11)....therefore give good news to My servants, those who listen to the word, then follow the best of it, those are they whom Allah has guided and those it is who are the men of understanding (39:17-18). There are many such verses, which there is no need to quote here. Nobody has any doubt how Qur'an invites people to the correct thinking and exhorts them to proceed on the path of knowledge.

Also the Qur'an reminds the readers that what it guides to is n way from among the ways of thinking. Allah says: Surely this Qur’an guides to that which is most upright (17:9); i.e. the religion, custom, or path that is most upright. In any case, it is the path of life and its uprightness depends on the uprightness of the way of thinking, as Allah has said: indeed, there has come to you a light and a clear Book from Allah; with it Allah guides him who follows His pleasure into the ways of peace and brings them out of utter darkness into light by His permission and guides them to the straight path (5:15-16). The straight path is that clear path which is free from contradiction and conflicts, i.e. neither it goes against the truth which one seeks nor its various sections point to different directions.

Allah, in His Mighty Book, has not pin-pointed the correct and upright thought to which He calls His servants; He has left it to the common sense of the people, expecting them to use their natural reasoning power and the perception engrained in their minds

I enjoyed reading your words brother, please pray for me. But I warn you, no one will listen to you if you speak the truth.

Ma'a Salaama

[A true Sunni]

I think you have forgot the insult which you got in that matam during ziyarat thread.

Speak in good akhlaq if I will turn up you will be like your 3 so called caliphs running here and there.

what insult is that LOL. Do you think that any thing blood letters say actually mean anything to me. Blood letters by and large cant debate because there is no rationale for what they do so they resort to petty insults and violence. So your 'insult' was forgotten the moment it was read.

I have never insulted u. it is you that resorts to these petty distractions. You feel insulted because you cant answer anything i say

Edited October 15, 2011 by A true Sunni

[S.hassan]

From Abee BaSeer from one of them (عليه السلام) “about the words of Allaah (عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ): ‘So give glad tidings to my servants, those who listen to the word, and follow the best thereof’ (39:17-18). ‘They are the Muslims of the Family of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), when they hear the Hadeeth they execute like they have heard it, without increasing and without decreasing in it.’”

Source:

1. Al-Mufeed, Al-IkhtiSaaS, Muqaddimah (Introduction), pg. 5

http://www.revivinga...h-strictly.html

40 hadith azadari

http://www.al-islam....adari_40hadith/

That's not regulation, try again.

[A true Sunni]

That's not regulation, try again.

to those that understand it is sufficent.

[S.hassan]

to those that understand it is sufficent.

Do you know arabic? If you do there's a good research done on this issue.

[Love-Of-Islam]

Do you know arabic? If you do there's a good research done on this issue.

brother what is ur view about this issue?

[S.hassan]

brother what is ur view about this issue?

Tatbeer and Zanjeer are permissible unless they cause serious harm, meaning they stop you from doing your waajibat.

[aladdin]

Tatbeer and Zanjeer are permissible unless they cause serious harm, meaning they stop you from doing your waajibat.

Those you have their little heads like ostrich buried in the sands and their behind sticking towards the coulds, would not understand what you have written above.

Wa' Salam.

I enjoyed reading your words brother, please pray for me. But I warn you, no one will listen to you if you speak the truth.

Ma'a Salaama

Do you know Imam Ali (as) has told us that one should never debate with the Quran. Debating with Quran you cannot prove anything.

And, whose truth you wants us to listen to, the truth of Jews, the truth of Christians, the truth of Sunnis, they all claim like you, that they speak the truth and no one listens to them.

All of them claim like you that they have monopoly on truth.

Edited October 16, 2011 by aladdin

[Love-Of-Islam]

Tatbeer and Zanjeer are permissible unless they cause serious harm, meaning they stop you from doing your waajibat.

i see brother any marja support this view i am just asking this for knowledge

[Aly ReZa]

what insult is that LOL. Do you think that any thing blood letters say actually mean anything to me. Blood letters by and large cant debate because there is no rationale for what they do so they resort to petty insults and violence. So your 'insult' was forgotten the moment it was read.

I have never insulted u. it is you that resorts to these petty distractions. You feel insulted because you cant answer anything i say

Its nothing I can't answer whatever you ask

I don't answer you because you are the people who hates azadari and wants to stop that

And you know what you corrupted and blind people can never see or understand what it is

[Alam Dar]

I am glad that you have 'clarified' your original statement. If you read your original statement it seems to admonish those that are against blood letting firewalking etc claiming that they are doing it because of personal beliefs. All this without any attempt to admonish the blood letters.

I reality it is the blood letters who are committing these acts trying to bring them into the fold of Islam. It is their personal belief that blood letting is a legitimate form of mourning.

If you wish to resort to looking at jurists positions then it is important to look at living jurists positions rather then long deceased ones. The obvious reason is that firstly alive jurists will issue rulings based on the the current situation. Secondly it is easier to forge or misrepresent the position of a deceased jurist then it is an alive one.

Recent debates have demonstrated that Azadari4Imam website had added words to the translation of a ruling from Ayatullah Naenni changing its meaning and import

Here the brother has compared them to Zionists :

You said living Jurists, the majority of living jurists condone it. Sistani/Hakeem/Khorasani/Shirazi/Rohani/Modarresi/Bashir-Najafi

So I'm not only using deceased jurists, so anyone that makes attacks is wrong and anyone that denies this act as being permissible is wrong unless they are a Jurist and have come to this conclusion using the Quran and Ahlul Bayt.