Bidah In Shia Islam

syed_shia · October 6, 2011

(bismillah)

(salam)

Dear All,

I have would like to put this topic forward and discuss this.

Here is a beautiful hadeeth from our 6^th Imaam (عليه السلام) showing just how crucial it is to expose bid`ah (innovation) that people create in Islaam, and the great reward you will receive, insha’Allaah, if you were to expose these bid`ah.

مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ الْحُسَيْنِ عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ أَبِي نَصْرٍ عَنْ دَاوُدَ بْنِ سِرْحَانَ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ص إِذَا رَأَيْتُمْ أَهْلَ الرَّيْبِ وَ الْبِدَعِ مِنْ بَعْدِي فَأَظْهِرُوا الْبَرَاءَةَ مِنْهُمْ وَ أَكْثِرُوا مِنْ سَبِّهِمْ وَ الْقَوْلَ فِيهِمْ وَ الْوَقِيعَةَ وَ بَاهِتُوهُمْ كَيْلَا يَطْمَعُوا فِي الْفَسَادِ فِي الْإِسْلَامِ وَ يَحْذَرَهُمُ النَّاسُ وَ لَا يَتَعَلَّمُوا مِنْ بِدَعِهِمْ يَكْتُبِ اللَّهُ لَكُمْ بِذَلِكَ الْحَسَنَاتِ وَ يَرْفَعْ لَكُمْ بِهِ الدَّرَجَاتِ فِي الْآخِرَةِ

The Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: “When you will find people of bid`ah (innovation) and doubt/suspicion after me, do baraa’ (disassociation) from them and increase in your insults (sabihim) to them, and oppose (them) and bring evidences against them so they may not become greedy in bringing fasaad (corruption) to Islam. You must warn people against them and do not learn their bid`ah (innovation). Allah will write for you hasanaat (good deeds) for this, and will raise you darajaat (levels) in the next life.’”

Source:

1. Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 2, ch. 159, pg. 375, hadeeth # 4

Grading:

1. Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is SaHeeH (Authentic)

à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 11, pg. 77

(above taken from revivingalislam.com)

Based on the above hadith, when thinking about the possible bidah , how firm should we be in promoting the good and forbidding the evil?

Things such as:

1) Adding Ali (as) in the Adhan. With sayings such as ashadunnah aliyun waliullah, ashadu anna aliyun hujjutullah, or the long version : ashadu anna ameerul momineen wal imamul motaqeen aliyun hujutullah.

2) Hitting the chest as a tradition after a muharram lecture.

3) Use of weapons to cause self harm, such as zanjeer or tatbeer.

4) Some shias adding ali (as) in the Tashahud in salat.

What should our position be without causing a disunity amongst the shias.

Salaam

Ali

Edited October 28, 2017 by Hameedeh
Replaced missing Arabic fonts.

**Rohani** · October 6, 2011

other hadith gradings besides Al majlisi please?

I take it bida is when you say something is part of the religion when it is not.

Edited October 6, 2011 by AlMuttaqi

SD2 · October 6, 2011

On 10/6/2011 at 7:26 AM, syed_shia said:

(bismillah)

(salam)

Dear All,

I have would like to put this topic forward and discuss this.

Here is a beautiful hadeeth from our 6^th Imaam (عليه السلام)showing just how crucial it is to expose bid`ah (innovation) that people create in Islaam, and the great reward you will receive, insha’Allaah, if you were to expose these bid`ah.

مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ الْحُسَيْنِ عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ أَبِي نَصْرٍ عَنْ دَاوُدَ بْنِ سِرْحَانَ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ص إِذَا رَأَيْتُمْ أَهْلَ الرَّيْبِ وَ الْبِدَعِ مِنْ بَعْدِي فَأَظْهِرُوا الْبَرَاءَةَ مِنْهُمْ وَ أَكْثِرُوا مِنْ سَبِّهِمْ وَ الْقَوْلَ فِيهِمْ وَ الْوَقِيعَةَ وَ بَاهِتُوهُمْ كَيْلَا يَطْمَعُوا فِي الْفَسَادِ فِي الْإِسْلَامِ وَ يَحْذَرَهُمُ النَّاسُ وَ لَا يَتَعَلَّمُوا مِنْ بِدَعِهِمْ يَكْتُبِ اللَّهُ لَكُمْ بِذَلِكَ الْحَسَنَاتِ وَ يَرْفَعْ لَكُمْ بِهِ الدَّرَجَاتِ فِي الْآخِرَةِ

The Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: “When you will find people of bid`ah (innovation) and doubt/suspicion after me, do baraa’ (disassociation) from them and increase in your insults (sabihim) to them, and oppose (them) and bring evidences against them so they may not become greedy in bringing fasaad (corruption) to Islam. You must warn people against them and do not learn their bid`ah (innovation). Allah will write for you hasanaat (good deeds) for this, and will raise you darajaat (levels) in the next life.’”

Source:

1. Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 2, ch. 159, pg. 375, hadeeth # 4

Grading:

1. Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is SaHeeH (Authentic)

à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 11, pg. 77

(above taken from revivingalislam.com)

Based on the above hadith, when thinking about the possible bidah , how firm should we be in promoting the good and forbidding the evil?

Things such as:

1) Adding Ali (as) in the Adhan. With sayings such as ashadunnah aliyun waliullah, ashadu anna aliyun hujjutullah, or the long version : ashadu anna ameerul momineen wal imamul motaqeen aliyun hujutullah.

2) Hitting the chest as a tradition after a muharram lecture.

3) Use of weapons to cause self harm, such as zanjeer or tatbeer.

4) Some shias adding ali (as) in the Tashahud in salat.

What should our position be without causing a disunity amongst the shias.

Salaam

Ali

Seems unlikely that the Prophet (pbuh) will tell us to insult people.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Hameedeh
Moved his reply from inside the quote to the reply box.

**Rohani** · October 6, 2011

On 10/6/2011 at 8:54 AM, SD2 said:

Seems unlikely that the Prophet (pbuh) will tell us to insult people.

That is why i would like to see more opinions by other scholars of rijal.

Nader Zaveri · October 6, 2011

(salam)

(bismillah)

Quote

That is why i would like to see more opinions by other scholars of rijal.

The are no questions regarding the authenticity of this hadeeth. The rijaal are thiqaat (pl. of thiqah), and the chain is connected. This hadeeth is not unlikely, if you look at the other hadeeth by our Ahl al-Bayt (as) against the Ahl al-Bid`ah and various sects in Islaam, this is right in line with the way they talked.

As I have pointed out in the previous topic on bid`ah, our major scholars have not stated that in order for something to be considered a bid`ah it has to be said to be "part of the religion".

(salam)

aladdin · October 6, 2011

Would one consider a bid'ah, promoting a hadith which claims that Umar blackmailed Imam Ali and Imam Ali caved in and married Bibi Fatima's daughter to Umar?

Would one consider a bid'ah, when someone claims that he is bringing Islam from death to life, reviving Islam?

aladdin · October 6, 2011

Dear All,
I have would like to put this topic forward and discuss this.

Salam brother,

What is your position regarding my following two questions based on bid'ah.

Would you consider a bid'ah, promoting a hadith which claims that Umar blackmailed Imam Ali and Imam Ali caved in and married Bibi Fatima's daughter to Umar?

Would you consider a bid'ah, when someone claims that he is bringing Islam from death to life, thus reviving Islam?

A good video on Bid'ah, Bid'ah, Bid'ah.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhleUoucs2s

**Rohani** · October 6, 2011

On 10/6/2011 at 9:26 AM, Nader Zaveri said:

(salam)

(bismillah)

The are no questions regarding the authenticity of this hadeeth. The rijaal are thiqaat (pl. of thiqah), and the chain is connected. This hadeeth is not unlikely, if you look at the other hadeeth by our Ahl al-Bayt (as) against the Ahl al-Bid`ah and various sects in Islaam, this is right in line with the way they talked.

As I have pointed out in the previous topic on bid`ah, our major scholars have not stated that in order for something to be considered a bid`ah it has to be said to be "part of the religion".

(salam)

(salam)

wa alaykom salam

ya akhi, could you post those scholars views about bida here please?

and thank you for saying about the rijal end of this.

Saimaaa · October 6, 2011

It surprises me how a scholarly person is presenting the authentic saying of Imam and some "Imamis" are trying to come up with excuses to reject the saying of the Imam. I find it ironic.

JimJam · October 6, 2011

^Its something called discussion

Nader Zaveri · October 7, 2011

(salam)

(bismillah)

Quote

other hadith gradings besides Al majlisi please?

Other Scholar's who have said this hadeeth is SaHeeH:

al-FaaDil al-Kaadhimi (d. 1065), Masaalik al-Afhaam 'ila Ayaat al-Ahkaam, vol. 2, pg. 397
Shaheed al-Thaani (d. 966), Masaalik al-Afhaam ila TanqeeH Sharaa'i` al-Islaam, vol. 14, pg. 434
al-Majlisi I (al-Majlisi's father), RawDah al-Muttaqeen, vol. 9, pg. 327
Muhaqqiq al-Sabzawaaree (d. 1090), Kifaayah al-Ahkaam, vol. 1, pg. 437
`Abd al-`Ala (d. 1414), Mahdhab al-Ahkaam, vol. 16, pg. 134
`Abd Allaah al-Jazaa'iree (d. 1173), al-TuHfah al-Suniyyah, pg. 83
Yoosuf al-Bahraani, al-Hadaa'iq al-NaaDirah, vol. 18, pg. 164
al-Hussayn bin Aal `Asfoor al-Bahraani, Sadaad al-`Ibaad, pg. 446
Muhammad Mujaahid al-Tabataba'i (d. 1242), al-Munaahil, pg. 259
Ahmad al-Naraaqi (d. 1245), Mustanad al-Shee`ah fee Ahkaam al-Sharee`ah, vol. 14, pg. 162
Murtada al-Ansaari (d. 1281), Kitaab al-Makaasib, vol. 1, pg. 353
al-Khoei, MisbaaH al-Fiqaahah, vol. 1, pg. 354
Jawad al-Tabrizi, Irshaad al-Taalib 'ila al-Ta`leeq `ala al-Makaasib, vol. 1, pg. 162
Jawad al-Tabrizi, Asad al-Hadood, pg. 235
Abu Talib al-Tabrizi, al-Ta`leeqah al-Istidilaaliyyah, pg. 430
al-Sayfa al-Mazandaraani, Daleel Tahreer al-Waseelah, vol. 2, pg. 174

(salam)

aladdin · October 7, 2011

Quote

It surprises me how a scholarly person is presenting the authentic saying of Imam and some "Imamis" are trying to come up with excuses to reject the saying of the Imam. I find it ironic.

The hadith is sahih according to Mr. Zaveri. According to the hadith the Prophet commands the Muslims whoever commits a bidah, the Muslims should, "do baraa’ (disassociation) from them and increase in your insults (sabihim) to them, and oppose (them) and bring evidences against them so they may not become greedy in bringing fasaad (corruption) to Islam."

The Sunnis commit bidah in the Adhan by adding in the Adhan, "Alahl Khayr Al Amal"

Since every Sunni commits the above bidah, therefore it becomes incumbent on all Shias based on the Command of the Prophet to, do baraa’ (disassociation) from every Sunni and increase in their insults (sabihim) to the Sunnis, and oppose (the Sunnis) and bring evidences against the Sunnis so they the Sunnis may not become greedy in bringing fasaad (corruption) to Islam.

Do you agree with above?

Does Mr. Nader Zaveri agrees with the above?

Does Syed_Shia agrees with the above?

I wonder how can we have unity with the Sunnis on the basis of the above?

The hadith commands the Shias to dissociate with the Sunnis, to insult the Sunnis, to oppose the Sunnis and bring evidence against the Sunnis, since they are doing bidah in Adhan.

mahdi usman · October 7, 2011

the akhbari sect also accuse usoolis to invent bidah of ijtehad what about that?

Saimaaa · October 7, 2011

@ aladdin. Can you forget sunnis for a moment and build up the basis of your own religion instead of plugging it into the antithesis of Sunni Islam? I am sure that if you search out your posts , the most used words would be "Bukhari , sunni , Abu Bakr".

S.hassan · October 7, 2011

No one here can define biddah? Why is it then people accuse others of biddah without knowing the definition for it?

aladdin · October 7, 2011

the akhbari sect also accuse usoolis to invent bidah of ijtehad what about that?

Excellent observation and how true.

And include to the above, that some of the deviant Shias that think the following two is bidah:

1) Adding Ali (as) in the Adhan. With sayings such as ashadunnah aliyun waliullah, ashadu anna aliyun hujjutullah, or the long version : ashadu anna ameerul momineen wal imamul motaqeen aliyun hujutullah.

2) Hitting the chest as a tradition after a muharram lecture.

Almost all the Shia practice the above two bidah. That includes my late father, late mother and all my immediate family. I am pretty sure that some of immediate family members of Syed_Shia, Nader Zaveri, Ali_Hussain and Haider Hasayn commit the above two bidahs too.

So, here it is so far:

1. All Sunnis commit bidah in the Adhan by adding in the Adhan, "Alahl Khayr Al Amal". This is almost 72% to 75% Muslims.

2. All Usulis commit bidah of "ijtehad and Taqlid".

3. Almost all Shias commit bidah in the Adhan by adding in the Adhan, "Ali in the Adhan"

4. Almost all Shias commit bidah by doing "Matham".

The above list basically consist all Muslims. So to these deviant Shias they are commanded by the Prophet, to do baraa’ (disassociation) from almost every Muslim (all Sunnis and Shias) and increase in their insults (sabihim) to almost all the Muslims, and oppose (almost all the Muslims) and bring evidences against almost all the Muslim (all Sunnis and Shias) so they all the Sunnis and Shia may not become greedy in bringing fasaad (corruption) to Islam.

There is a word for these deviant Shias, they used to be called Kharjis, today they are called Wahhabis.

They are Lakher Kay Fakhir when it comes to hadiths, rijjal and rajul.

Hadith is SaHeeH, SaHeeH, GiDDaN, GiDDaN ......

Bidah, Bidah, Bidah, Bidah .......

Edited October 7, 2011 by aladdin

aladdin · October 7, 2011

Salam to all,

For those who believe in real bidah of abu Bakr, who went against the Holy Quran requiring at least two witnesses for everything and who changed it to One Witness Only, should read and respond to the following thread:

http://www.shiachat....e-witness-only/

Those who believe in the Rijjal System, which is trash should read and respond to the following thread:

Wa' Salam

Edited October 7, 2011 by aladdin

**Rohani** · October 7, 2011

(salam)
(bismillah)
Other Scholar's who have said this hadeeth is SaHeeH:

al-FaaDil al-Kaadhimi (d. 1065), Masaalik al-Afhaam 'ila Ayaat al-Ahkaam, vol. 2, pg. 397
Shaheed al-Thaani (d. 966), Masaalik al-Afhaam ila TanqeeH Sharaa'i` al-Islaam, vol. 14, pg. 434
al-Majlisi I (al-Majlisi's father), RawDah al-Muttaqeen, vol. 9, pg. 327
Muhaqqiq al-Sabzawaaree (d. 1090), Kifaayah al-Ahkaam, vol. 1, pg. 437
`Abd al-`Ala (d. 1414), Mahdhab al-Ahkaam, vol. 16, pg. 134
`Abd Allaah al-Jazaa'iree (d. 1173), al-TuHfah al-Suniyyah, pg. 83
Yoosuf al-Bahraani, al-Hadaa'iq al-NaaDirah, vol. 18, pg. 164
al-Hussayn bin Aal `Asfoor al-Bahraani, Sadaad al-`Ibaad, pg. 446
Muhammad Mujaahid al-Tabataba'i (d. 1242), al-Munaahil, pg. 259
Ahmad al-Naraaqi (d. 1245), Mustanad al-Shee`ah fee Ahkaam al-Sharee`ah, vol. 14, pg. 162
Murtada al-Ansaari (d. 1281), Kitaab al-Makaasib, vol. 1, pg. 353
al-Khoei, MisbaaH al-Fiqaahah, vol. 1, pg. 354
Jawad al-Tabrizi, Irshaad al-Taalib 'ila al-Ta`leeq `ala al-Makaasib, vol. 1, pg. 162
Jawad al-Tabrizi, Asad al-Hadood, pg. 235
Abu Talib al-Tabrizi, al-Ta`leeqah al-Istidilaaliyyah, pg. 430
al-Sayfa al-Mazandaraani, Daleel Tahreer al-Waseelah, vol. 2, pg. 174
(salam)

Wa alaykom salam

What about Najashi?

syed_shia · October 7, 2011

Salaam

Quote

Would you consider a bid'ah, promoting a hadith which claims that Umar blackmailed Imam Ali and Imam Ali caved in and married Bibi Fatima's daughter to Umar?

Would you consider a bid'ah, when someone claims that he is bringing Islam from death to life, thus reviving Islam?

We are discussing the bidah in shia islam. Hence the topic 'bidah in shia islam'. With all due respect to my sunni brother and sisters, I personally dont care about Umar and has no effect on me as I'm not his follower, so lets carry on the discussion.

Quote

It surprises me how a scholarly person is presenting the authentic saying of Imam and some "Imamis" are trying to come up with excuses to reject the saying of the Imam. I find it ironic.

It's embarressing.

Quote

The hadith is sahih according to Mr. Zaveri.

You posted this just after the brother posted 16 references as proof that the hadith is Sahih. ?

Quote

The Sunnis commit bidah in the Adhan by adding in the Adhan, "Alahl Khayr Al Amal"

Here we go again. The issue is within Shia Islam.

Also sunnis dont acknowledge that 'as salaat khairul minan nawm' is bidah. They acknowledge it being part of the Adhan, Whereas the shia ruling of 'ali' in the adhan, the scholars confess that it has never been part of the true adhan and if you want to say it (according to sistani) have the niyat that its not part of the adhan.

So with regards to this, we shias, accept its bidah, and suppose to be ok with it? Even after knowing the sin of introducing Bidah? Thats just pure ignorance.

Quote

Do you agree with above?

Regards with your saying to sunnis. Thats a different matter. I am for the unity of shia and sunni. The issue is when shias know they are comitting bidah and still be ok with it. I guess somehow thats whom the hadith is refering to?

Quote

The hadith commands the Shias to dissociate with the Sunnis, to insult the Sunnis, to oppose the Sunnis and bring evidence against the Sunnis, since they are doing bidah in Adhan.

Theres not one word of Sunni in there. The topic is bidah in shia islam. When did it become being against shia and sunni unity?

Quote

Almost all the Shia practice the above two bidah

Thats a very weak argument to go by. Based on that should it be ok. Is islam dependant on statistics? If majority people start eating pork does it become halal? In that case the majority are sunnis, should we go by statistics and convert to sunniism?

Salaam

Nader Zaveri · October 7, 2011

(salam)

(bismillah)

On 10/7/2011 at 5:30 AM, S.hassan said:

No one here can define biddah? Why is it then people accuse others of biddah without knowing the definition for it?

It has already been defined in the previous thread on bid`ah.

On 10/7/2011 at 7:28 AM, :

What about Najashi?

I think you have a misunderstanding. al-Najaashi is a Rijaal scholar, he doesn't grade hadeeth. I have yet to see anyone go against the authenticity of this hadeeth. You said you wanted other scholar's view of this hadeeth, are those not enough scholars saying this hadeeth is SaHeeH?

(salam)

Nader Zaveri · October 7, 2011

(salam)

(bismillah)

Adding to the list of scholars who have said this hadeeth is SaHeeH.

Other Scholar's who have said this hadeeth is SaHeeH:

al-FaaDil al-Kaadhimi (d. 1065), Masaalik al-Afhaam 'ila Ayaat al-Ahkaam, vol. 2, pg. 397
Shaheed al-Thaani (d. 966), Masaalik al-Afhaam ila TanqeeH Sharaa'i` al-Islaam, vol. 14, pg. 434
al-Majlisi I (al-Majlisi's father), RawDah al-Muttaqeen, vol. 9, pg. 327
Muhaqqiq al-Sabzawaaree (d. 1090), Kifaayah al-Ahkaam, vol. 1, pg. 437
`Abd al-`Ala (d. 1414), Mahdhab al-Ahkaam, vol. 16, pg. 134
`Abd Allaah al-Jazaa'iree (d. 1173), al-TuHfah al-Suniyyah, pg. 83
Yoosuf al-Bahraani, al-Hadaa'iq al-NaaDirah, vol. 18, pg. 164
al-Hussayn bin Aal `Asfoor al-Bahraani, Sadaad al-`Ibaad, pg. 446
Muhammad Mujaahid al-Tabataba'i (d. 1242), al-Munaahil, pg. 259
Ahmad al-Naraaqi (d. 1245), Mustanad al-Shee`ah fee Ahkaam al-Sharee`ah, vol. 14, pg. 162
Murtada al-Ansaari (d. 1281), Kitaab al-Makaasib, vol. 1, pg. 353
al-Khoei, MisbaaH al-Fiqaahah, vol. 1, pg. 354
Jawad al-Tabrizi, Irshaad al-Taalib 'ila al-Ta`leeq `ala al-Makaasib, vol. 1, pg. 162
Jawad al-Tabrizi, Asad al-Hadood, pg. 235
Abu Talib al-Tabrizi, al-Ta`leeqah al-Istidilaaliyyah, pg. 430
al-Sayfa al-Mazandaraani, Daleel Tahreer al-Waseelah, vol. 2, pg. 174

al-RooHaani, Fiqh al-Saadiq, vol. 14, pg. 296
al-RooHaani, MisbaaH al-Fuqaahah, vol. 1, pg. 379
Muhammad Sa`eed al-Hakeem, MisbaaH al-Minhaaj, pg. 359
`Alee al-Namaazee al-Shahroodi, Mustadarak Safeenah al-Bihaar, vol. 1, pg. 303 & vol. 8, pg. 202
Haadi al-Najafi, Mawsoo`ah aHaadeeth Ahl al-Bayt, vol. 2, pg. 25
al-Turayhi, Majma` al-BaHrayn, vol. 3, pg. 343
Muhammad Taqi al-Isfahani, Mikyaal al-Makaarim, vol. 2, pg. 259

(salam)

SD2 · October 7, 2011

Quote

It surprises me how a scholarly person is presenting the authentic saying of Imam and some "Imamis" are trying to come up with excuses to reject the saying of the Imam. I find it ironic.

Number 1) I don't see any scholars here (no disrespect to anyone but you can't just call anyone a scholar)

Number 2) I am not trying to find an excuse to reject it, just stating that it's strange that we would be told to send insults.

Awaiting_for_the12th · October 7, 2011

Some people may wonder why the Shi'a, in the adhan, include:“Ashhadu anna Ali`yan waliuAllah” (“I testify that Ali is the close friend of Allah”) after the first two testimonies. All the Shi'a jurists and scholars have a consensus that this sentence is not an obligatory part of the adhan; nonetheless, saying it is a tradition. However, if anyone says it in the adhan, believing it to be obligatory, then his or her adhan will become void. The Shi'as believe it began during the time of the Prophet, on the day of Ghadir after he appointed Imam Ali as his successor, during which the Muslims paid their allegiance to Imam Ali, and Abu Dharr al-Ghifari recited the adhan and added the phrase:“Ashhadu anna Ali`yan wali Allah.” Afterwards, the Muslims came to the Prophet and said that they had heard something new in the adhan. When the Prophet asked what they had heard, they replied, we heard the phrase, ”Ashhadu anna 'Aliyan wali Allah” in the adhan. The Prophet asked them whether they had not just acknowledged this same phrase to Imam Ali when they gave their allegiance (bay'ah) to him.

source: http://www.al-islam.org/shiism/15.htm goodluck going against what Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) approved

aladdin · October 7, 2011

You posted this just after the brother posted 16 references as proof that the hadith is Sahih. ?

To me it doesn't matter if the hadith is sahih or not. It still doesn't matter, even if 16 or 24 references posted as proof that the hadith is sahih or not. To me hadiths in the hands of novices like me, you or Nader Zaveri is trash. If you want to discuss this, you can discuss it here:

http://www.shiachat....m-is-trash-why/

Here we go again. The issue is within Shia Islam.
Also sunnis dont acknowledge that 'as salaat khairul minan nawm' is bidah. They acknowledge it being part of the Adhan.

Both you and Mr. Zaveri acknowledge that the hadith is SaHeeH, SaHeeH. I believe that as Shias both you and Mr. Zaveri acknowledge that all Sunnis are committing bidah in the Adhan by adding extra phrases to it. The hadith is not exclusive to Shias committing bidah. The hadith is when Muslims committing bidah.

Since every Sunni commits the above bidah, therefore it becomes incumbent on you and Mr. Zaveri based on the Command of the Prophet to, do baraa’ (disassociation) from every Sunni and increase in your insults (sabihim) to the Sunnis, and oppose (the Sunnis) and bring evidences against the Sunnis so they the Sunnis may not become greedy in bringing fasaad (corruption) to Islam.

I am for the unity of shia and sunni.

How can you and Mr. Zaveri have unity with Sunnis, while at the same time, based on the Command of the Prophet to, do baraa’ (disassociation) from every Sunni and increase in your insults (sabihim) to the Sunnis, and oppose (the Sunnis) and bring evidences against the Sunnis so they the Sunnis may not become greedy in bringing fasaad (corruption) to Islam.

With all due respect to my sunni brother and sisters, I personally dont care about Umar and has no effect on me as I'm not his follower, so lets carry on the discussion. It's embarressing.

Why are you embarss of SaHeeH, SaHeeH hadiths. Here is the hadith posted by Mr. Zaveri again:

Hishaam bin Saalim from Abee `Abd Allaah (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) he said: “When he (`Umar) address (proposed) to him (`Alee). Ameer Al-Mu’mineen (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) said to him “She is a child”. He said: So he (`Umar) met Al-`Abbaas and he said to him: “What is wrong with me? Is there a problem with me?” He (Abbaas) said: “And what is the matter?” He (Umar) said: “I addressed (proposed) before your brother's son (nephew), and he denied me. I swear by Allaah, I will fill the zamzam, leave no honor for you without being destroyed. I will bring two witnesses upon him and (prove) he (is guilty) of theft, and I will cut his right (hand)!” Then Al-`Abbaas went to him (Imaam `Alee) and gave him the news (of what happened). And he (Abbaas) asked him (`Alee) to put the matter to him (Abbaas). And he (`Alee) agreed.”

Why are you apologetic to the Sunnis for Umar's behavior. Here he is threatening and blackmailing Imam Ali. It is not the behavior of the second rightly guided caliph of Muslims. Why are you apologetic?

Thats a very weak argument to go by. Based on that should it be ok. Is islam dependant on statistics? If majority people start eating pork does it become halal?

Are you equating eating pork to saying the name of Ali in Adhan?

**Rohani** · October 7, 2011

On 10/7/2011 at 10:14 AM, Nader Zaveri said:

(salam)

(bismillah)

Adding to the list of scholars who have said this hadeeth is SaHeeH.

[*]al-RooHaani, Fiqh al-Saadiq, vol. 14, pg. 296

[*]al-RooHaani, MisbaaH al-Fuqaahah, vol. 1, pg. 379

[*]Muhammad Sa`eed al-Hakeem, MisbaaH al-Minhaaj, pg. 359

[*]`Alee al-Namaazee al-Shahroodi, Mustadarak Safeenah al-Bihaar, vol. 1, pg. 303 & vol. 8, pg. 202

[*]Haadi al-Najafi, Mawsoo`ah aHaadeeth Ahl al-Bayt, vol. 2, pg. 25

[*]al-Turayhi, Majma` al-BaHrayn, vol. 3, pg. 343

[*]Muhammad Taqi al-Isfahani, Mikyaal al-Makaarim, vol. 2, pg. 259

(salam)

Salam Alaykom

I would like to see if this is (an everyone agrees or not) and najsashi being a rijal scholar shouldn't we be able to determine if this is sahih by checking the narrators according to his book? - when we investigate things we should be interrogating these things to make sure. we should both check, qu'ran agreement, rijal, and biographical agreeing with the prophet as we do have alot of text we should be able to see if it is or is not in line with his person right? anyways brother the more interrogating we do in these areas if your right it would just give more evidence. there is no need for anyone to be annoyed by such an interrogation after all we are all learning.

Nader Zaveri · October 7, 2011

(salam)

(bismillah)

There are other Rijaal scholars other than al-Najaashi, like al-Toosi. If you were to just use al-Najaashi's rijaal to grade hadeeth, you would have a ton more of weak hadeeth, because al-Toosi grades someone thiqah a lot of times that al-Najaashi doesn't grade thiqah or mention. This is a bad approach you are using, but I will go along with the whole checking al-Najaashi's Rijaal.

Even if al-Majlisi and all these other scholars have said this hadeeth is SaHeeH, I still analyze every single chain individually.

On 10/6/2011 at 7:26 AM, syed_shia said:

مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ الْحُسَيْنِ عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ أَبِي نَصْرٍ عَنْ دَاوُدَ بْنِ سِرْحَانَ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ص إِذَا رَأَيْتُمْ أَهْلَ الرَّيْبِ وَ الْبِدَعِ مِنْ بَعْدِي فَأَظْهِرُوا الْبَرَاءَةَ مِنْهُمْ وَ أَكْثِرُوا مِنْ سَبِّهِمْ وَ الْقَوْلَ فِيهِمْ وَ الْوَقِيعَةَ وَ بَاهِتُوهُمْ كَيْلَا يَطْمَعُوا فِي الْفَسَادِ فِي الْإِسْلَامِ وَ يَحْذَرَهُمُ النَّاسُ وَ لَا يَتَعَلَّمُوا مِنْ بِدَعِهِمْ يَكْتُبِ اللَّهُ لَكُمْ بِذَلِكَ الْحَسَنَاتِ وَ يَرْفَعْ لَكُمْ بِهِ الدَّرَجَاتِ فِي الْآخِرَةِ

Quote

I would like to see if this is (an everyone agrees or not) and najsashi being a rijal scholar shouldn't we be able to determine if this is sahih by checking the narrators according to his book? - when we investigate things we should be interrogating these things to make sure. we should both check, qu'ran agreement, rijal, and biographical agreeing with the prophet as we do have alot of text we should be able to see if it is or is not in line with his person right? anyways brother the more interrogating we do in these areas if your right it would just give more evidence. there is no need for anyone to be annoyed by such an interrogation after all we are all learning.

Taking only from al-Najaashi's Rijaal.

دَاوُدَ بْنِ سِرْحَانَ = Dawood bin SarHaan al-`Attaar

420 - داود بن سرحان العطار

كوفي

ثقة

أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ أَبِي نَصْرٍ = Ahmad bin Muhammad bin Abee Nasr al-BazanTee

180 - أحمد بن محمد بن عمرو

بن أبي نصر زيد مولى السكون أبو جعفر المعروف بالبزنطي كوفي

لقي الرضا و أبا جعفر عليهما السلام و كان عظيم المنزلة عندهما

.

مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ الْحُسَيْنِ = Muhammad bin al-Hussayn bin Abee al-KhaTTaab

897 - محمد بن الحسين بن أبي الخطاب أبو جعفر الزيات الهمداني

و اسم أبي الخطاب زيد

جليل من أصحابنا عظيم القدر كثير الرواية ثقة عين حسن التصانيف مسكون إلى روايته

.

مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى = Muhammad bin Yahya al-`Attar

946 - محمد بن يحيى أبو جعفر العطار القمي

شيخ أصحابنا في زمانه ثقة عين كثير الحديث

.

(salam)

Lanatin · October 7, 2011

Oh man, all I can say is we shias justify soooooo much bid'a it stinks ._.

ktmnabi · October 7, 2011

Excellent observation and how true.
And include to the above, that some of the deviant Shias that think the following two is bidah:
1) Adding Ali (as) in the Adhan. With sayings such as ashadunnah aliyun waliullah, ashadu anna aliyun hujjutullah, or the long version : ashadu anna ameerul momineen wal imamul motaqeen aliyun hujutullah.
2) Hitting the chest as a tradition after a muharram lecture.
Almost all the Shia practice the above two bidah. That includes my late father, late mother and all my immediate family. I am pretty sure that some of immediate family members of Syed_Shia, Nader Zaveri, Ali_Hussain and Haider Hasayn commit the above two bidahs too.

this isnt a hadith of the Prophet SAW and you should do barra of the people who authenticated it

but if you believe it is, from Prophet SAW, then dig right into the bidahtis be they your familly or someone elses

aladdin · October 7, 2011

this isnt a hadith of the Prophet SAW and you should do barra of the people who authenticated it
but if you believe it is, from Prophet SAW, then dig right into the bidahtis be they your familly or someone elses

At the same time the Shia believe that the Sunnis are doing bidah by adding phrases in Adhan, which are not there.

So, what is your opinion about this?

aladdin · October 8, 2011

The following is what Wasil is saying about this hadith of bidah in his debate with Farid (Lord Botta)

I say this hadith is not worth a penny even though the sanad seems sahih and it's narrated by other than ibrahim ibn hashim(ra) but this hadith is an insult to rasool Allah because it encourages lying upon people (opponents) and it contradicts akhlaq of rasool Allah (saww)and must be rejected without a second thought.
also nader mistranslated it to make it lighter but the hadith doesn't say as nader said: When you after me find people of bid’ah (innovation) and doubt/suspicion, do baraa- (disassociation) from them and increase your condemnation (sabihim), words and opposition to and evidence against them (baahitoohum)
A truthful man must not be scared of the truth : the hadith said when you meet the people of innovation after me then dissociate with them (good till now) and insult them profusely and backbite them and resort to lie against them !!!!!!!!!!!
now these are akhlaq of donald rumsfdeld maybe but not of rasool Allah (saww) so i don't care what sanad conveyed it to us because to me this hadith is pure evil and our imams (as) and rasool Allah(saww) never talk this way even about the opponents.

What does Mr. Nader Zaveri has to say about Wasil accussation against him, "also nader mistranslated it to make it lighter but the hadith doesn't say as nader said"?

Nader Zaveri · October 8, 2011

(salam)

(bismillah)

What does Mr. Nader Zaveri has to say about Wasil accussation against him, "also nader mistranslated it to make it lighter but the hadith doesn't say as nader said"?

I have already discussed this in another thread. Also, al-Khoei gave a fatwa that makes it permissible to lie against the innovators and people who spread falsehood. I discussed this here, click here: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/234994848-permissible-to-lie/page__p__2276468#entry2276468

(salam)

guest 34193 · October 8, 2011

So you'll take the word of someone like Wasil over that of our greatest scholars? As regards to doing sabb against the mukhalifeen from the `Aaamma, then how about what Sayyid al-Khoe'i said:

أنه ثبت في الروايات والأدعية والزيارات جواز لعن المخالفين ، ووجوب البراءة منهم ، وإكثار السبّ عليهم ، واتّهامهم ، والوقيعة فيهم ـ أي غيبتهم ـ لأنّهم من أهل البدع والريب. بل لا شبهة في كفرهم ، لأنّ إنكار الولاية والأئمّة حتّى الواحد منهم ، والاعتقاد بخلافة غيرهم ، وبالعقائد الخرافية كالجبر ونحوه يوجب الكفر والزندقة ، وتدلّ عليه الأخبار المتواترة الظاهرة في كفر منكر الولاية ، وكفر المعتقد بالعقائد المذكورة وما يشبهها من الضلالات.

Or here:

الوجه الرابع : قيام السيرة المستمرّة بين عوام الشيعة وعلمائهم على غيبة المخالفين ، بل سبّهم ولعنهم في جميع الأعصار والأمصار ، بل في الجواهر أنّ جواز ذلك من الضروريات.

aladdin · October 8, 2011

What about, "insult them profusely and backbite them"?

Doesn't the Quran says something about backbiting?

guest 34193 · October 8, 2011

It's about backbiting the mu'mineen. The mukhalif is not a mu'min. Anyway, you don't think Sayyid al-Khoe'i read that verse in the Quran?

aladdin · October 8, 2011

So you'll take the word of someone like Wasil over that of our greatest scholars? As regards to doing sabb against the mukhalifeen from the `Aaamma, then how about what Sayyid al-Khoe'i said:
أنه ثبت في الروايات والأدعية والزيارات جواز لعن المخالفين ، ووجوب البراءة منهم ، وإكثار السبّ عليهم ، واتّهامهم ، والوقيعة فيهم ـ أي غيبتهم ـ لأنّهم من أهل البدع والريب. بل لا شبهة في كفرهم ، لأنّ إنكار الولاية والأئمّة حتّى الواحد منهم ، والاعتقاد بخلافة غيرهم ، وبالعقائد الخرافية كالجبر ونحوه يوجب الكفر والزندقة ، وتدلّ عليه الأخبار المتواترة الظاهرة في كفر منكر الولاية ، وكفر المعتقد بالعقائد المذكورة وما يشبهها من الضلالات.
Or here:
الوجه الرابع : قيام السيرة المستمرّة بين عوام الشيعة وعلمائهم على غيبة المخالفين ، بل سبّهم ولعنهم في جميع الأعصار والأمصار ، بل في الجواهر أنّ جواز ذلك من الضروريات.

I would ask you to bring the translation from the site you have quoted above. If there is no translation, then I would ask you to translate the above yourself. Reason being everyone translations differs from someone else translation. Arabic is not so such a simple language.

It's about backbiting the mu'mineen. The mukhalif is not a mu'min. Anyway, you don't think Sayyid al-Khoe'i read that verse in the Quran?

Can you please quote the verse. So, it seems that you agree that the hadith is saying, "backbiting".

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