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Female Genital Mutilation

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Salaams,

Ive heard that the Bohora shia sect and certain Ismaili groups practice female genital mutilation (FGM). Why do they do it? didnt the Prophet (saw) put an end to it? none of his daughters were circumcised!!!! I know that in certain sunni sects its mustahab (Hanafi sects) but why do shias do it? theres no benefits and it brings only pain and complications to women, it only benefits men!!

Its even practiced in parts of Iran! :mad:

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how does it benefit men?

i dont want to go into detail but firstly its aesthetically pleasing, and secondly its a sign of her virginity in practising cultures, uncircumcised women are seen as promiscuous whether she is married or unmarried...

Edited by AlHamdulillah110

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I think he was alluding to circumcision...

i meant female circumcision benefits men and i discussed the reasons why in my second reply, im not discussing male circumcision

if women dont get circumcised then they get ostracised from their communities, and dont usually get married because they are seen as 'impure'

Edited by AlHamdulillah110

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why do shias do it?

Because it is recommended in ahadith.

Also, it's not something unIslamic. During the time of the Prophet (pbuh), there was a famous female circumciser called Umm Habib.

Finally that FGM=female circumcision is an erroneous and daft concept. Circumcision (in the right way) involves removing very little skin, unlike FGM.

wa (salam)

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Female circumcision is not the same thing as female genital mutilation. The first involves the removal of a small layer off of the tip of the body part in question while the later involves its complete removal. The first does not results in the absence of sexual pleasure while the latter does, essentially turning women into mere robots during intercourse. The former is not forbidden and there are narrations to support its practice while the latter is completely forbidden. If you are unaware of the differences between the two, then I would suggest you read about them first before naively making a topic out of emotion through which you may indirectly and unknowingly question the wisdom of our Prophet and the Imams [a].

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Female circumcision is not the same thing as female genital mutilation. The first involves the removal of a small layer off of the tip of the body part in question while the later involves its complete removal. The first does not results in the absence of sexual pleasure while the latter does, essentially turning women into mere robots during intercourse. The former is not forbidden and there are narrations to support its practice while the latter is completely forbidden. If you are unaware of the differences between the two, then I would suggest you read about them first before naively making a topic out of emotion through which you may indirectly and unknowingly question the wisdom of our Prophet and the Imams [a].

brother, i am not "naively making a topic out of emotion" i have written articles on this practice, a anthropological dissertation for which i received a high 2.1, made a documentary which is going to be broadcasted internationally, and work with 4 human rights organisations, public health specialists, and the Muslim Council of Britian and religious leaders (sunni) about this. Furthermore, i spoke to Sheikh Ayub (from Ahlul Bayt tv) who confirmed that is is not a Shia Jaffery practice.

you have not provided any proof for your claims. i mearly want to find out why this is allowed in certain sects of shia Islam. It is was right then all shia girls would have been circumcised, and we would have learnt about it from a young age. There is no proof that the Prophet (saw) practised this on his daughters. If there is i would love to know about this.

and yes, circumcision is the same thing as female genital mutilation, if you want, read about the 4 types of FGM, the 'cutting a small layer off' is type 1.

Because it is recommended in ahadith.

Also, it's not something unIslamic. During the time of the Prophet (pbuh), there was a famous female circumciser called Umm Habib.

Finally that FGM=female circumcision is an erroneous and daft concept. Circumcision (in the right way) involves removing very little skin, unlike FGM.

wa (salam)

the hadith regarding umm habib has been found to be a fabricated one by the muslim council of Britain and the famous Al Azhar university in Egypt.

Edited by AlHamdulillah110

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The Prophet (saw) said that reducing the size of the part in question is allowed but not wajib but not to remove the whole part, since this is the first time ive heard of this i will do some more research into what shias say regarding the issue. one could argue that its the same as female genital surgeries that take place in the west, or certain piercings which reduce the size.

What i dont agree with is the complete circumcision and thats what im arguing about, that it is in certain shia sects to do whats more than necessary which completely ruins the girls whole life.

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Whatever term you use it is another practice of male domination of women. Besides being very painful and performed in primitive conditions with associated health risks it diminshes a womans enjoyment of sex, which ignorant people believe will keep them faithful, but has no effect on a man's pleasure. It is also performed just prior to a girls reaching puberty and she has no choice in the matter.

"Female circumcision is not the same thing as female genital mutilation. The first involves the removal of a small layer off of the tip of the body part in question while the later involves its complete removal. The first does not results in the absence of sexual pleasure while the latter does, essentially turning women into mere robots during intercourse. The former is not forbidden and there are narrations to support its practice while the latter is completely forbidden."

What would be the reason for this proceedure, it certainly does not promote good health?

"i dont want to go into detail but firstly its aesthetically pleasing"

I'm glad you didn't go into detail because your idea is totally absurd and absolutely ignorant. What it is is a totally unnecessary health risk.

The Prophet (saw) said that reducing the size of the part in question is allowed but not wajib but not to remove the whole part, since this is the first time ive heard of this i will do some more research into what shias say regarding the issue. one could argue that its the same as female genital surgeries that take place in the west, or certain piercings which reduce the size.

What i dont agree with is the complete circumcision and thats what im arguing about, that it is in certain shia sects to do whats more than necessary which completely ruins the girls whole life.

What surgeries would those be?

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Salaams,

Ive heard that the Bohora shia sect and certain Ismaili groups practice female genital mutilation (FGM). Why do they do it? didnt the Prophet (saw) put an end to it? none of his daughters were circumcised!!!! I know that in certain sunni sects its mustahab (Hanafi sects) but why do shias do it? theres no benefits and it brings only pain and complications to women, it only benefits men!!

Its even practiced in parts of Iran! :mad:

This was covered in a lot of detail in this thread. http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/234970669-female-circumcision/page__hl__female circumcision

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Whatever term you use it is another practice of male domination of women. Besides being very painful and performed in primitive conditions with associated health risks it diminshes a womans enjoyment of sex, which ignorant people believe will keep them faithful, but has no effect on a man's pleasure. It is also performed just prior to a girls reaching puberty and she has no choice in the matter.

"Female circumcision is not the same thing as female genital mutilation. The first involves the removal of a small layer off of the tip of the body part in question while the later involves its complete removal. The first does not results in the absence of sexual pleasure while the latter does, essentially turning women into mere robots during intercourse. The former is not forbidden and there are narrations to support its practice while the latter is completely forbidden."

What would be the reason for this proceedure, it certainly does not promote good health?

I'm glad you didn't go into detail because your idea is totally absurd and absolutely ignorant. What it is is a totally unnecessary health risk.

What surgeries would those be?

men find it more sexually pleasing during intercourse with a circumcised woman. most men in practising communities wont marry uncircumcised women.

there are western men who also share the same opinions as men in practising communities.

the surgeries i am reffering to is known as 'labiaplasty' and 'designer v******' which you can look up.

During the Victorian era in London women used to get circumcised in order to to stop masturbating and stop sex before marriage. You can look that up. Theres an excellent book by Ellen Greunbaum called 'The Female Circumcision Controversy' its in there.

"i dont want to go into detail but firstly its aesthetically pleasing"

i was just explaining why men might like it, i never said i support it, infact i am completely against it, because ive personally dealt with women and girls who have been circumcised and ive seen their pain.

Edited by AlHamdulillah110

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brother, i am not "naively making a topic out of emotion" i have written articles on this practice, a anthropological dissertation for which i received a high 2.1, made a documentary which is going to be broadcasted internationally, and work with 4 human rights organisations, public health specialists, and the Muslim Council of Britian and religious leaders (sunni) about this. Furthermore, i spoke to Sheikh Ayub (from Ahlul Bayt tv) who confirmed that is is not a Shia Jaffery practice.

you have not provided any proof for your claims. i mearly want to find out why this is allowed in certain sects of shia Islam. It is was right then all shia girls would have been circumcised, and we would have learnt about it from a young age. There is no proof that the Prophet (saw) practised this on his daughters. If there is i would love to know about this.

and yes, circumcision is the same thing as female genital mutilation, if you want, read about the 4 types of FGM, the 'cutting a small layer off' is type 1.

Yes, you are being emotional. You're providing me with your qualifications and here-say instead of any hard proof for your claims. Thankfully the other members of this forum posted the narrations that I was thinking of and the other thread that discussed this topic. Remember, there is no disagreement as to the permissibility of this practice, but there is disagreement as to whether its mandatory or not.

As to the part of your post I've bolded, if we go by your logic, then male circumcision can also be called male genital mutilation. Cool beans. It's not the first time that post-modern morality has been projected onto our religion to retroactively declare a practice that is supported by our religion as a impermissible.

Edited by al-Irshad

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Yes, you are being emotional. You're providing me with your qualifications and here-say instead of any hard proof for your claims. Thankfully the other members of this forum posted the narrations that I was thinking of and the other thread that discussed this topic. Remember, there is no disagreement as to the permissibility of this practice, but there is disagreement as to whether its mandatory or not.

As to the part of your post I've bolded, if we go by your logic, then male circumcision can also be called male genital mutilation. Cool beans. It's not the first time that post-modern morality has been projected onto our religion to retroactively declare a practice that is supported by our religion as a impermissible.

I do not appreciate it when people call me 'naive' and that why i wrote down my list of experiences and qualifications to show that i know what im talking about. Then another bro/sis said its allowed in shia islam which i have not denied yet because i want to do more research on it. However, sunni brothers and sisters also use a very similar hadith which has been refuted as its a 'weak' hadith, nevertheless i will do research into the shia perspective of female genital mutilation, and consult islamic scholars on it, one of which has already confirmed to me that is it against the principals of Islam (sheikh Ayub).

And i do appreciate everyones views on this matter, because im still trying to learn, ive only been researching into this for 3 years and by fault didnt look into shi'ism because i never imagined that it would turn out to be for the practice (of the not so violent form of fc), secondly its a practice that pre-dated islam, and thirdly because most sunni scholars had rejected the idea that it was a religious practice.

depending on the type, female circumcision is equivalent to male circumcision, and male circumcision is not illegal in the UK, and is not a violation of human rights, female circumcision on the other hand is a violation of human rights (which i can provide evidence for if needed). It is also illegal in the UK according to the Female Genital Mutilation Act 2004, the Childrens Act 1989, and policies on child health and well being. Here is a small leaflet by the Muslim Council of Britian:

http://www.iccservic...FGM_Leaflet.pdf

Edited by AlHamdulillah110

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"men find it more sexually pleasing during intercourse with a circumcised woman. most men in practising communities wont marry uncircumcised women.

there are western men who also share the same opinions as men in practising communities.

the surgeries i am reffering to is known as 'labiaplasty' and 'designer v******' which you can look up.

During the Victorian era in London women used to get circumcised in order to to stop masturbating and stop sex before marriage. You can look that up. Theres an excellent book by Ellen Greunbaum called 'The Female Circumcision Controversy' its in there".

Come on brother you keep making it worse. What is the basis for your information, it can not be from personal experience. If some jokers won't marry an uncircumcized woman believe me that is their loss.

Regarding Victorian England, it certainly is not a standard to set for 2011. I would also wager that the percentage of women who were circumcized to stop masturbating and sex before marriage out of the general population was miniscule.

"its the same as female genital surgeries that take place in the west "

I am not going to say it isn't done in the US but no reputable doctor would do it and it is not the same.

One last point. If you have never had sexual intercourse you are not qualified to address this subject and if you are married has your wife been circumsized?

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"Female circumcision is not the same thing as female genital mutilation. The first involves the removal of a small layer off of the tip of the body part in question while the later involves its complete removal. The first does not results in the absence of sexual pleasure while the latter does, essentially turning women into mere robots during intercourse. The former is not forbidden and there are narrations to support its practice while the latter is completely forbidden."

What would be the reason for this proceedure, it certainly does not promote good health?

As has been made clear already female circumcision is different and much, much milder and safer than the extreme form known as "FGM" (Female Genital Mutilation which is also commonly known as Pharaonic circumcision as it is believed to go back to Ancient Egypt and Sudan aka the Nubians, etc). As for the medical benefits of moderate, female circumcision read the following: http://islam-qa.com/en/ref/45528/female%20circumcision

Quote- ...

There are reports in the Sunnah which indicate that circumcision for women is prescribed in Islam. In Madeenah there was a woman who circumcised women and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to her: “Do not go to the extreme in cutting; that is better for the woman and more liked by the husband.” Narrated by Abu Dawood (5271), classed as saheeh by Shaykh al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood.

Female circumcision has not been prescribed for no reason, rather there is wisdom behind it and it brings many benefits.

Mentioning some of these benefits, Dr. Haamid al-Ghawaabi says:

The secretions of the labia minora accumulate in uncircumcised women and turn rancid, so they develop an unpleasant odour which may lead to infections of the vagina or urethra. I have seen many cases of sickness caused by the lack of circumcision.

Circumcision reduces excessive sensitivity of the clitoris which may cause it to increase in size to 3 centimeters when aroused, which is very annoying to the husband, especially at the time of intercourse.

Another benefit of circumcision is that it prevents stimulation of the clitoris which makes it grow large in such a manner that it causes pain.

Circumcision prevents spasms of the clitoris which are a kind of inflammation.

Circumcision reduces excessive sexual desire.

Then Dr al-Ghawaabi refutes those who claim that female circumcision leads to frigidity by noting:

Frigidity has many causes, and this claim is not based on any sound statistics comparing circumcised women with uncircumcised women, except in the case of Pharaonic circumcision which is where the clitoris is excised completely. This does in fact lead to frigidity but it is contrary to the kind of circumcision enjoined by the Prophet of mercy (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) when he said: “Do not destroy” i.e., do not uproot or excise. This alone is evidence that speaks for itself, because medicine at that time knew very little about this sensitive organ (the clitoris) and its nerves.

From Liwa’ al-Islam magazine, issue 8 and 10; article entitled Khitaan al-Banaat (circumcision of girls).

The female gynaecologist Sitt al-Banaat Khaalid says in an article entitled Khitaan al-Banaat Ru’yah Sihhiyyah (Female circumcision from a health point of view):

For us in the Muslim world female circumcision is, above all else, obedience to Islam, which means acting in accordance with the fitrah and following the Sunnah which encourages it. We all know the dimensions of Islam, and that everything in it must be good in all aspects, including health aspects. If the benefits are not apparent now, they will become known in the future, as has happened with regard to male circumcision – the world now knows its benefits and it has become widespread among all nations despite the opposition of some groups.

Then she mentioned some of the health benefits of female circumcision and said:

It takes away excessive libido from women

It prevents unpleasant odours which result from foul secretions beneath the prepuce.

It reduces the incidence of urinary tract infections

It reduces the incidence of infections of the reproductive system.

In the book on Traditions that affect the health of women and children, which was published by the World Health Organization in 1979 it says:

With regard to the type of female circumcision which involves removal of the prepuce of the clitoris, which is similar to male circumcision, no harmful health effects have been noted.

And Allaah knows best.

end quote.

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"men find it more sexually pleasing during intercourse with a circumcised woman. most men in practising communities wont marry uncircumcised women.

there are western men who also share the same opinions as men in practising communities.

the surgeries i am reffering to is known as 'labiaplasty' and 'designer v******' which you can look up.

During the Victorian era in London women used to get circumcised in order to to stop masturbating and stop sex before marriage. You can look that up. Theres an excellent book by Ellen Greunbaum called 'The Female Circumcision Controversy' its in there".

Come on brother you keep making it worse. What is the basis for your information, it can not be from personal experience. If some jokers won't marry an uncircumcized woman believe me that is their loss.

Regarding Victorian England, it certainly is not a standard to set for 2011. I would also wager that the percentage of women who were circumcized to stop masturbating and sex before marriage out of the general population was miniscule.

"its the same as female genital surgeries that take place in the west "

I am not going to say it isn't done in the US but no reputable doctor would do it and it is not the same.

One last point. If you have never had sexual intercourse you are not qualified to address this subject and if you are married has your wife been circumsized?

agreed. It is not the same standard for 2011, it was just an example of it being practiced in the West before Islam came to the UK. Play boy women, and even porn stars (i dont watch porn but from my own research) and even Londons famous Hartley Street perform these 'designer v******' surgeries, and yes most of these doctors are very reputable.

I am a 21 year old women who had just graduated from university, and no i am not married yet. I am qualified for this subject for the following reasons:

  1. i am a woman who sees the rights of other women being taken away from them
  2. I have qualified in anthropology and gender studies which looks into these issues
  3. i am from the culture and country which practices FGM and forced child marriages
  4. i have always been interested in human rights especially abuse against women

so i do not have to be married in order to qualify discussing this topic, i simple have to be a female to do so.

Edited by AlHamdulillah110

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As has been made clear already female circumcision is different and much, much milder and safer than the extreme form known as "FGM" (Female Genital Mutilation which is also commonly known as Pharaonic circumcision as it is believed to go back to Ancient Egypt and Sudan aka the Nubians, etc). As for the medical benefits of moderate, female circumcision read the following: http://islam-qa.com/...%20circumcision

Quote- ...

There are reports in the Sunnah which indicate that circumcision for women is prescribed in Islam. In Madeenah there was a woman who circumcised women and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to her: “Do not go to the extreme in cutting; that is better for the woman and more liked by the husband.” Narrated by Abu Dawood (5271), classed as saheeh by Shaykh al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood.

Female circumcision has not been prescribed for no reason, rather there is wisdom behind it and it brings many benefits.

Mentioning some of these benefits, Dr. Haamid al-Ghawaabi says:

The secretions of the labia minora accumulate in uncircumcised women and turn rancid, so they develop an unpleasant odour which may lead to infections of the vagina or urethra. I have seen many cases of sickness caused by the lack of circumcision.

Circumcision reduces excessive sensitivity of the clitoris which may cause it to increase in size to 3 centimeters when aroused, which is very annoying to the husband, especially at the time of intercourse.

Another benefit of circumcision is that it prevents stimulation of the clitoris which makes it grow large in such a manner that it causes pain.

Circumcision prevents spasms of the clitoris which are a kind of inflammation.

Circumcision reduces excessive sexual desire.

Then Dr al-Ghawaabi refutes those who claim that female circumcision leads to frigidity by noting:

Frigidity has many causes, and this claim is not based on any sound statistics comparing circumcised women with uncircumcised women, except in the case of Pharaonic circumcision which is where the clitoris is excised completely. This does in fact lead to frigidity but it is contrary to the kind of circumcision enjoined by the Prophet of mercy (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) when he said: “Do not destroy” i.e., do not uproot or excise. This alone is evidence that speaks for itself, because medicine at that time knew very little about this sensitive organ (the clitoris) and its nerves.

From Liwa’ al-Islam magazine, issue 8 and 10; article entitled Khitaan al-Banaat (circumcision of girls).

The female gynaecologist Sitt al-Banaat Khaalid says in an article entitled Khitaan al-Banaat Ru’yah Sihhiyyah (Female circumcision from a health point of view):

For us in the Muslim world female circumcision is, above all else, obedience to Islam, which means acting in accordance with the fitrah and following the Sunnah which encourages it. We all know the dimensions of Islam, and that everything in it must be good in all aspects, including health aspects. If the benefits are not apparent now, they will become known in the future, as has happened with regard to male circumcision – the world now knows its benefits and it has become widespread among all nations despite the opposition of some groups.

Then she mentioned some of the health benefits of female circumcision and said:

It takes away excessive libido from women

It prevents unpleasant odours which result from foul secretions beneath the prepuce.

It reduces the incidence of urinary tract infections

It reduces the incidence of infections of the reproductive system.

In the book on Traditions that affect the health of women and children, which was published by the World Health Organization in 1979 it says:

With regard to the type of female circumcision which involves removal of the prepuce of the clitoris, which is similar to male circumcision, no harmful health effects have been noted.

And Allaah knows best.

end quote.

since 1979, the WHO has conducted a lot of research into FGM and has found that it is dangerous for the female and has a lot of health risks associated with the practice. Removing the prepuce (cliteordectomy) may not have significant health risks, but the other forms of FGM do, nevertheless it is still counted as an abuse of human rights (4 types). Most of these surgeries even the minor ones are done in unsanitary environments usually with unsanitized equipment which can cause severe risks to the female.

Edited by AlHamdulillah110

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I know Sayyid Fadlullah was against this action on women unless there is some detail missing that i do not know. i do not know what are all the reasons that brought him to that conclusion though.

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I know Sayyid Fadlullah was against this action on women unless there is some detail missing that i do not know. i do not know what are all the reasons that brought him to that conclusion though.

ive sent a question to Sistani to see what he has to say on the topic.

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ive sent a question to Sistani to see what he has to say on the topic.

insha Allah please share with us when you get a reply.

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I do not appreciate it when people call me 'naive' and that why i wrote down my list of experiences and qualifications to show that i know what im talking about. Then another bro/sis said its allowed in shia islam which i have not denied yet because i want to do more research on it. However, sunni brothers and sisters also use a very similar hadith which has been refuted as its a 'weak' hadith, nevertheless i will do research into the shia perspective of female genital mutilation, and consult islamic scholars on it, one of which has already confirmed to me that is it against the principals of Islam (sheikh Ayub).

And i do appreciate everyones views on this matter, because im still trying to learn, ive only been researching into this for 3 years and by fault didnt look into shi'ism because i never imagined that it would turn out to be for the practice (of the not so violent form of fc), secondly its a practice that pre-dated islam, and thirdly because most sunni scholars had rejected the idea that it was a religious practice.

depending on the type, female circumcision is equivalent to male circumcision, and male circumcision is not illegal in the UK, and is not a violation of human rights, female circumcision on the other hand is a violation of human rights (which i can provide evidence for if needed). It is also illegal in the UK according to the Female Genital Mutilation Act 2004, the Childrens Act 1989, and policies on child health and well being. Here is a small leaflet by the Muslim Council of Britian:

http://www.iccservic...FGM_Leaflet.pdf

What's in bold is wrong. They have not rejected the proper practice. See here:

http://spa.qibla.com/issue_view.asp?HD=10&ID=1702&CATE=89

As to what you've written in the last paragraph, you did exactly what I implied was incorrect. You imposed a foreign structure of morality onto Islam to retroactively denigrate a practice that has some support in our religion. At least try to argue from the sources of our religion. Westerners view the scarf or veil as a usurpation of a woman's rights, and these garments are banned in certain Western countries. Do we apply your logic and then retroactively redefine what hijab or niqab is or, worse, nullify the practices associated with them? The last question I have for you has to do with consent. If a woman consents to these procedures, is it then a usurpation of her rights? After all, she has a certain amount of autonomy over her body, does she not?

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What's in bold is wrong. They have not rejected the proper practice. See here:

http://spa.qibla.com...ID=1702&CATE=89

As to what you've written in the last paragraph, you did exactly what I implied was incorrect. You imposed a foreign structure of morality onto Islam to retroactively denigrate a practice that has some support in our religion. At least try to argue from the sources of our religion. Westerners view the scarf or veil as a usurpation of a woman's rights, and these garments are banned in certain Western countries. Do we apply your logic and then retroactively redefine what hijab or niqab is or, worse, nullify the practices associated with them? The last question I have for you has to do with consent. If a woman consents to these procedures, is it then a usurpation of her rights? After all, she has a certain amount of autonomy over her body, does she not?

brother as i have said before, i did not to my own fault research into the shia perspective of fgm, i mistakenly assumed that it wouldnt be a part of our religion. Now that i know otherwise i am willing to research it.

correct me if im wrong but the Prophet (saw) said that a minor operation to be performed on women is mustahab, not the full chop and stitch which is what i am arguing against. I am using facts, not modern assumptions, but facts of women having all sorts of problems due to being circumcised. there is plenty of proof out there of the risks associated with FGM.

What the Prophet (saw) said is all well and good, but even that type of opperation is practised in unsanitary environments with rusty, blunt, unwashed razor blades, which can cause many problems for the females. if it is being practised in a hospital with sterilised equipment then the risks are much less.

i wrote a whole article on cultural relativism as an anthropologist, i understand why it is being practised, i dont go around telling people its barbaric, i just give them the facts and discuss and let them decide it for themselves.

certainly, if a woman over the age of 18 wishes to practice fgm on herself then she is entitled to. a famous anthropologist which i had interviewed 'Fuambai Ahmadu' a Sierra Leonian woman living in America, decided to undergo FGM herself as a cultural rite of passage in the 'Bundu ceremony' of becoming a woman (you wont find much on Bundu because its an initiation process of a secret society. If an infant is taken into the woods and cut brutally without consent then i have a problem with that, especially if a girl grows up to be a 10 year old girl gets forcibly circumcised and then married to a 60 year old man who on the wedding night rips her apart either with scissors or his own hands, i have a big problem with that.

Edited by AlHamdulillah110

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i attended a conference about Faith against FGM a couple of months ago, which has been posted on youtube. This is what islam says about FGM, again this is not a complete view of Shi'sim but it will give you an idea of what the islamic perspective is.

the videos are quite short. you dont need to take it word for word, but at least think about it...

Edited by AlHamdulillah110

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Sister in your post #8 this thread you said the following:

"and yes, circumcision is the same thing as female genital mutilation, if you want, read about the 4 types of FGM, the 'cutting a small layer off' is type 1."

Then in post # 12 you said the following:

"What i dont agree with is the complete circumcision and thats what im arguing about, that it is in certain shia sects to do whats more than necessary which completely ruins the girls whole life."

What has caused you to back off on your original position?

"Play boy women, and even porn stars (i dont watch porn but from my own research) and even Londons famous Hartley Street perform these 'designer v******' surgeries, and yes most of these doctors are very reputable."

You have hardly cited applicable examples using porn star and such. The reason they have surgeries is completely different than what we are talking about here, they are doing it for photographs. At the risk of being expicit whenever my eyes are in that area of a woman's anatomy they are usually closed.

Would you get circumcized if your husband to be demanded it?

Lastly I do not think anyone who has not enjoyed sexual intercourse is qualified to address the pleasures it brings.

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The sole purpose of female circumcision in these crazy villages is to prevent (or at least make difficult) women from achieving orgasm. I find this sickening. But that is their primary goal. They find the concept of orgasm, sinful I guess.

Most Muslims that practice this ritual come from the Shafi based nations, they have a hadith dedicated to addressing the issue.

Think Egyptians, Kurds, Malaysians/Indonesians, and some others from that particular school of thought.

I'm hoping that this trend eventually dies out in these respective nations, and that the educated individuals of these regions and nations can speak out against it.

I had no idea that some subgroups of Ismailis accept this, well at least I learned something new today.

Edited by ShiaBen

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As has been made clear already female circumcision is different and much, much milder and safer than the extreme form known as "FGM" (Female Genital Mutilation which is also commonly known as Pharaonic circumcision as it is believed to go back to Ancient Egypt and Sudan aka the Nubians, etc). As for the medical benefits of moderate, female circumcision read the following: http://islam-qa.com/...%20circumcision

Quote- ...

There are reports in the Sunnah which indicate that circumcision for women is prescribed in Islam. In Madeenah there was a woman who circumcised women and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to her: “Do not go to the extreme in cutting; that is better for the woman and more liked by the husband.” Narrated by Abu Dawood (5271), classed as saheeh by Shaykh al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood.

Female circumcision has not been prescribed for no reason, rather there is wisdom behind it and it brings many benefits.

Mentioning some of these benefits, Dr. Haamid al-Ghawaabi says:

The secretions of the labia minora accumulate in uncircumcised women and turn rancid, so they develop an unpleasant odour which may lead to infections of the vagina or urethra. I have seen many cases of sickness caused by the lack of circumcision.

Circumcision reduces excessive sensitivity of the clitoris which may cause it to increase in size to 3 centimeters when aroused, which is very annoying to the husband, especially at the time of intercourse.

Another benefit of circumcision is that it prevents stimulation of the clitoris which makes it grow large in such a manner that it causes pain.

Circumcision prevents spasms of the clitoris which are a kind of inflammation.

Circumcision reduces excessive sexual desire.

Then Dr al-Ghawaabi refutes those who claim that female circumcision leads to frigidity by noting:

Frigidity has many causes, and this claim is not based on any sound statistics comparing circumcised women with uncircumcised women, except in the case of Pharaonic circumcision which is where the clitoris is excised completely. This does in fact lead to frigidity but it is contrary to the kind of circumcision enjoined by the Prophet of mercy (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) when he said: “Do not destroy” i.e., do not uproot or excise. This alone is evidence that speaks for itself, because medicine at that time knew very little about this sensitive organ (the clitoris) and its nerves.

From Liwa’ al-Islam magazine, issue 8 and 10; article entitled Khitaan al-Banaat (circumcision of girls).

The female gynaecologist Sitt al-Banaat Khaalid says in an article entitled Khitaan al-Banaat Ru’yah Sihhiyyah (Female circumcision from a health point of view):

For us in the Muslim world female circumcision is, above all else, obedience to Islam, which means acting in accordance with the fitrah and following the Sunnah which encourages it. We all know the dimensions of Islam, and that everything in it must be good in all aspects, including health aspects. If the benefits are not apparent now, they will become known in the future, as has happened with regard to male circumcision – the world now knows its benefits and it has become widespread among all nations despite the opposition of some groups.

Then she mentioned some of the health benefits of female circumcision and said:

It takes away excessive libido from women

It prevents unpleasant odours which result from foul secretions beneath the prepuce.

It reduces the incidence of urinary tract infections

It reduces the incidence of infections of the reproductive system.

In the book on Traditions that affect the health of women and children, which was published by the World Health Organization in 1979 it says:

With regard to the type of female circumcision which involves removal of the prepuce of the clitoris, which is similar to male circumcision, no harmful health effects have been noted.

And Allaah knows best.

end quote.

Doctor Hamid Al-Ghawabi states that bad smells in women, cleanliness notwithstanding, can only be eliminated by cutting off the clitoris and labia minora.

Ghawabi: Khitan, op. cit., p. 55.

Doctor Hamid Al-Ghawabi admits that female circumcision does reduce the sexual instinct in women, but he sees this as a positive effect. With age, the male sexual instinct lessens. His circumcised wife will then be at the same level as him. If she was not, her husband would be unable to satisfy her, which then would lead him to drug-use in order to succeed.

Ghawabi: Khitan, op. cit., p. 57.

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Female circumcision has not been prescribed for no reason, rather there is wisdom behind it and it brings many benefits.

Mentioning some of these benefits, Dr. Haamid al-Ghawaabi says:

The secretions of the labia minora accumulate in uncircumcised women and turn rancid, so they develop an unpleasant odour which may lead to infections of the vagina or urethra. I have seen many cases of sickness caused by the lack of circumcision.

Circumcision reduces excessive sensitivity of the clitoris which may cause it to increase in size to 3 centimeters when aroused, which is very annoying to the husband, especially at the time of intercourse.

Another benefit of circumcision is that it prevents stimulation of the clitoris which makes it grow large in such a manner that it causes pain.

Circumcision prevents spasms of the clitoris which are a kind of inflammation.

This fellow is completely out of his mind.

Good God ask any married woman if she agrees this is a good thing. Increased sensation increases pleasure, and that ain't bad.

"The secretions of the labia minora accumulate in uncircumcised women and turn rancid, so they develop an unpleasant odour which may lead to infections of the vagina or urethra. I have seen many cases of sickness caused by the lack of circumcision."

All it takes to prevent this is normal cleanliness.

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Sister in your post #8 this thread you said the following:

"and yes, circumcision is the same thing as female genital mutilation, if you want, read about the 4 types of FGM, the 'cutting a small layer off' is type 1."

Then in post # 12 you said the following:

"What i dont agree with is the complete circumcision and thats what im arguing about, that it is in certain shia sects to do whats more than necessary which completely ruins the girls whole life."

What has caused you to back off on your original position?

"Play boy women, and even porn stars (i dont watch porn but from my own research) and even Londons famous Hartley Street perform these 'designer v******' surgeries, and yes most of these doctors are very reputable."

You have hardly cited applicable examples using porn star and such. The reason they have surgeries is completely different than what we are talking about here, they are doing it for photographs. At the risk of being expicit whenever my eyes are in that area of a woman's anatomy they are usually closed.

Would you get circumcized if your husband to be demanded it?

Lastly I do not think anyone who has not enjoyed sexual intercourse is qualified to address the pleasures it brings.

i will address the three points you made

1) fgm includes 4 types of circumcision which you can look up. The first is known as 'clitoridectomy' which refers to the removal of the outer skin of the clitoris which is the minor operation and is much less harmful. If done in a clinical setting then it doesnt really have much risk to it. I am against fgm and the removal of the sexual organs completely, there are many health risks associated with the practice. below are some of the risks associated with FGM. this is taken from a reliable medical website used by many medical health professionals and specialist midwives.

Physical

● Fractures of the limbs from being forcibly restrained.

● Failure to heal.

● Wound ulcer.

● Wound abscess.

● Urine infection.

● HIV/AIDS.

● Scar neuroma.

● Painful intercourse.

  • fistula

Psychological complications

● Acute trauma.

● Low self-esteem.

● Denial of sexuality and emphasis on reproductive.

● Genital phobia.

● Anxiety-depression.

Immediate complications

● Haemorrhage.

● Pain.

● Shock.

● Infection.

● Damage to other organs due to child struggling.

● Urinary Retention.

● Death.

Intermediate Complications

● Delayed wound healing.

● Scarring/Keloid formation.

● Pelvic Infection.

● Epidemoid cysts/Abscess.

● Infection including tetanus and other blood borne viruses.

● Neuromata.

Long term complications

● Chronic vaginal and pelvic infections which can lead to infertility.

● Difficulty passing urine due to the scar/ Urine tract infections.

● Painful and prolonged periods due to vaginal closure by the scar.

● Haemotocolpos: Vaginal closure due to scarring can lead to the impaired flow of menstrual tract infection.

● Childbirth trauma - perineal or vaginal tear during delivery.

● Delay in progress in second stage of labour.

● Obstructed labour.

● Fetal hypoxia and/or stillbirth.

● Painful coitus.

● Infibulation cysts. These cysts are either sebaceous or dermoid cysts caused by the skin tissue becoming trapped

in the scar. They can vary in size but may be as large as a grapefruit and frequently become infected.

● Psychological problems (such as flash-back, anxiety and depression).

http://www.fgmnation...mplications.htm

2) designer v******

http://radicalpsycho...rauntiefer.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk...health-14627659

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8352711.stm

http://www.newstrack...sdetails/237045

there are also some anthropological journals, but i cannot attach them to this message and you need to have a paid subscription to access them. such as, http://www.jstor.org/pss/3178492

3) no i wouldnt get circumcised if my husband demanded it, its my body and Islamically he cant force me. lastly, i feel that your final statement is quite ignorant, speaking about female genital mutilation is not reserved for those who have had sex. I could argue that you have no right being on shia chat because you are a non muslim, that would be very ignorant of me to say. i only have to ask a number of women if they enjoy sex being circumcised to hear the words "it is excruciatingly painful" some say they do but it takes them a while to become aroused and even then they do not easily achieve an orgasm. That is your opinion, fine, this is mine.

Edited by AlHamdulillah110

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