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In the Name of God بسم الله

Q For Those That Believe The Imams Are All Hearing

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Salam brother,

Very well said, just the first sermon of Imam Ali (as) in his Najul Balagha.

I will be very careful of Sahih International translation, as this translation is skewed towards Wahhabism.

Give you example of the above translation. To us Shia, both Arsh and Kursi are same thing. It could mean Throne of Allah and/or Knowledge of Allah. If it is Throne of Allah, then it is allegorical and not literal.

To a Wahhabi Arsh and Kursi don't mean the same thing. To them Arsh is the literal Throne of Allah and Kursi is the literal Stool of Allah. To them Allah has a body, and when He sits on His Throne, He puts His feet on the Stool. And, when He sits on His Throne, the Throne is so old that it makes sound when Allah sits on it.

And, then Allah visits the earth every now and then, as Allah's Arsh and Kursi are above the Seven Heavens.

God to give and your family good in this life and afterlife too.

And, for this reason they didn't translate Kursi in the above verse 2:255

See above, Yousuf Ali a Sunni and not a Wahhabi, properly translate the Kursi as Throne of Allah.

Thanks again for enlightening us big Brother Aladdin,

... learn something every day :) thank God i never learned Islam from any Wahhabi in my life, so i never thought of Allah in worldly limited ways .. like the whole issue you mentioned and the other ones i know about .. like "face of Allah" "Hands of Allah" "Eyes of Allah" .. etc ..

the reason y i like to use sahih international sometimes is because it is written in a modern way, with today's language .. and i hope that anybody seeing any mistakes in any of the english versions, will speak up and give a more precise interpretation grammatically and linguistically.

my arabic isn't perfect, but i studied a bit in school and uni & lived in arab world 16 years & my mom is arab .. so i can read the arabic quran a bit & kind of verify a bit .. but there are surely millions of people who can interpret the exact meanings better than me .. so please forgive me if i ever use the sahih international brother. it's just when i read it, it often sounds the closest to our language here for instance.

since you told me the last time that wahabis use sahih int'l i have been more careful and tried my best to use alternative ones (like Yusuf Ali) .. but when i find that there is no major difference between all versions .. i pick the ones that have least brackets and easiest English ..

on Quran.com there is an option on the side where we can tick on all the versions and have them on top of each other.

in some cases i remove brackets ( like "Oh Muhammad") .. when these words are taken for granted and not included in the source text.

anyway, brother Aladdin, thank you for your guidance and may Allah protect you in all the worlds.

(salam)

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on Quran.com there is an option on the side where we can tick on all the versions and have them on top of each other.

in some cases i remove brackets ( like "Oh Muhammad") .. when these words are taken for granted and not included in the source text.

Salam brotherm

I like that you "in some cases i remove brackets ( like "Oh Muhammad") .. when these words are taken for granted and not included in the source text."

Here is a site which has many, many more translations. From Muslims and non-Muslims too.

http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/2/255/default.htm

The Sahih International is been translated by Umm Muhammad. Why she doesn't come out and translate the word, "Kursi"?

How would the people who are reading the the translated Quran know what "Kursi" means?

As usual like a Wahhabi, she is hiding behind her aqeeda and not proud of what she believes in.

You will see that Aisha Bewley has translated "Kursi" as "Footstool". No onle else.

Her translation is from dictionaries.

Almost everyone has translated "Kursi" as "Throne", "Knowledge" or "both - Throne and Knowledge".

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I didn't read much of the posts except for the main one & few others but all I want to add is something I recently heard from a wise man "did Imam Ali (alayh al salam) say YA Allah or YA ALI?"

:) sorry I forgot to add that this is in responce to the dua (nadi aliyan)

Edited by Itisme
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A good post by brother Bhooka_bhairiya on his blog that is relevant to some of the discussion on here:

الاحتجاج - الشيخ الطبرسي - ج ٢ - الصفحة ٢٨٨

Al Ihtijaj by Shaikh Tabrisi (ra), Volume 2, Page 288

ومما خرج عن صاحب الزمان صلوات الله عليه، ردا على الغلاة من التوقيع جوابا لكتاب كتب إليه على يدي محمد بن علي بن هلال الكرخي

(Section on) What came among the signed letters of Imam Mahdi (as) in refutation of the ghulat, which he had written in reply to what Muhammad b. Ali. b. Hilal al Karkhi wrote to him.

يا محمد بن علي تعالى الله وجل عما يصفون، سبحانه وبحمده، ليس نحن شركاؤه في علمه ولا في قدرته، بل لا يعلم الغيب غيره، كما قال في محكم كتابه تباركت أسماؤه: (قل لا يعلم من في السماوات والأرض الغيب إلا الله) (١

وأنا وجميع آبائي من الأولين: آدم ونوح وإبراهيم وموسى، وغيرهم من النبيين، ومن الآخرين محمد رسول الله، وعلي بن أبي طالب، وغيرهم ممن مضى من الأئمة صلوات الله عليهم أجمعين، إلى مبلغ أيامي ومنتهى عصري، عبيد الله عز وجل يقول الله عز وجل: (من أعرض عن ذكري فإن له معيشة ضنكا ونحشره يوم القيامة أعمى * قال رب لم حشرتني أعمى وقد كنت بصيرا * قال كذلك أتتك آياتنا فنسيتها وكذلك اليوم تنسى) (١).

يا محمد بن علي قد آذانا جهلاء الشيعة وحمقاؤهم، ومن دينه جناح البعوضة أرجح منه.

فأشهد الله الذي لا إله إلا هو وكفى به شهيدا، ورسوله محمد صلى الله عليه وآله، وملائكته وأنبياءه، وأولياءه عليهم السلام.

وأشهدك، وأشهد كل من سمع كتابي هذا، أني برئ إلى الله وإلى رسوله ممن يقول: إنا نعلم الغيب، ونشاركه في ملكه، أو يحلنا محلا سوى المحل الذي رضيه الله لنا وخلقنا له، أو يتعدى بنا عما قد فسرته لك وبينته في صدر كتابي.

وأشهدكم: أن كل من نبرأ منه فإن الله يبرأ منه وملائكته ورسله وأولياءه وجعلت هذا التوقيع الذي في هذا الكتاب أمانة في عنقك وعنق من سمعه أن لا يكتمه لأحد من موالي وشيعتي حتى يظهر على هذا التوقيع الكل من الموالي لعل الله عز وجل يتلافاهم فيرجعون إلى دين الله الحق، وينتهون عما لا يعلمون منتهى أمره، ولا يبلغ منتهاه، فكل من فهم كتابي ولا يرجع إلى ما قد أمرته ونهيته، فقد حلت عليه اللعنة من الله وممن ذكرت من عباده الصالحين

O Muhammad b. Ali! Allah (swt) is far above and exalted of what they describe, He is glorified and worthy of praise. We are not His partners in His knowledge or His authority. In fact, no one has the knowledge of the unseen (ghaib) other than Him, as He, blessed are His names, said in His clearly established book (al Qur'an 27:65)[say: "None in the heavens and the earth knows the Ghaib (unseen) except Allah].

And me and all my forefathers; from the earlier generation of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses and others among the prophets, as well as the later generation of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), Ali (as) and others before the Imams (as) to the end of my days and end of my era, were slaves of Allah سبحانه وتعالى. Allah (swt) says (al Qur'an 20: 124-126):["But whosoever turns away from My Reminder verily, for him is a life of hardship, and We shall raise him up blind on the Day of Resurrection." He will say:"O my Lord! Why have you raised me up blind, while I had sight (before)." (Allah) will say: "Like this, Our signs came unto you, but you disregarded them, and so this Day, you will be neglected."]

O Muhammad b. Ali! The uneducated people and the idiots among the shias, and (people like) the one whose religion is outweighed by a bug's wing, have hurt us.

So I make Allah سبحانه وتعالى, the one apart from whom there is no one worthy of worship, a witness and it is a sufficient testimony, and (I make witness) Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), His angels, His prophets and His beloved people. Peace be upon them all. And I make you a witness and all those who hear this message, I declare my dissociation to Allah (swt) and His messenger (pbuh) from anyone who says that we know ghaib, share His kingdom or attributes to us a position other than the one chosen by Allah (swt) for us and which we were created for, or transgresses with regards to us in what has been explained to you and laid out in the heart of this message.

And I make you all witness that whoever we dissociate from, then indeed Allah سبحانه وتعالى, His angels, His messengers and His beloved people also dissociate from him. And I declare this message which is in this letter a trust (responsibility/duty) on your neck and the neck of everyone who hears it, to not conceal it from anyone among my lovers and shias so that this message is revealed to all the mawalis (lovers of ahlulbayt). Perhaps Allah (swt) will avert them so that they return to the true religion of Allah (swt) and will stop from that about which they do not know its ending (result) nor will they reach it.

So anyone who comprehends this message but does not conform to what it has ordered and forbidden, then upon him is damnation of Allah and those pious people that have been mentioned.

http://realtashayyu.blogspot.com/

Edited by Haydar Husayn
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Think:

1. Do kuffars get punished in their graves? If so, they are alive, for the dead cannot receive punishment. If martyrs and good people are also alive in their graves, then one must ask himself what the word "alive" mean in the quran when Allah says "do not say martyrs are dead, they are alive".

2. Understanding that Ghayb is only relative to the knowledge of Allah, it is NECESSARY that other entities cannot know everything, for if they did, there would be no "ghayb" for them, making their knowledge infinite.

3. If a woman dresses like a prostitute, walks like a prostitute, acts like a prostitute, can we, as human beings, consider her a prostitute? If it is only logical to do so, then how can we not call someone a mushrik if he prays like a mushrik (spiritually invokes other than Allah), talks like a mushrik (says other than Allah hears spiritual supplications), acts like a mushrik (puts his spiritual trust in other than Allah)?

4. What is a god? Since "divinity" cannot be only limited to "supreme power" (since polytheists do not believe all of their gods are supreme), then when is the barrier crossed between divinity and non-divinity, i.e. what attributed caracteristics or functions does Allah consider to be shirk?

5. Why is going to sorcerers shirk? Is it not because they claim/you believe they know what is unseen?

6. Did holy people ever possess theses supernatural hearing and responding abilities during their lives? Who during the time of the Prophet ever said "O prophet, help me" from afar? When did people, in mass, ask the Prophet thousands requests at a time and was able to absorb them? How can we claim that death unlocked theses hidden powers?

Edited by fallah
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Did holy people ever possess these supernatural hearing and responding abilities during their lives? Who during the time of the Prophet ever said "O prophet, help me" from afar? When did people, in mass, ask the Prophet thousands requests at a time and was able to absorb them? How can we claim that death unlocked theses hidden powers?

Uwais al-Qarni (as) and the method of spiritual communication he and the Prophet had is the answer you are looking for.

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23
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there are many who have done ammal when in difficulty even our great scholars and have recieved help from our Imam (atf) he hears us even from afar.

This really is shirk of the highest order. If this is true, apart from salah, is their any point even directly asking Allah for help anymore? might as well go to the Imam.

Where do we draw the line?

Edited by Alf
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(bismillah)

(salam)

I wanted to add a few words I pray will be helpful to some, I pray you do not mind.

Allah (azza wa jaala) in HIS infinite Majesty has given to all men free will. All of us have this gift and forces nothing of belief upon us. This is reflected in the religion of Allah, as both common sense dictates and our Holy Books have related to us. Once we come to the belief of Allah, as related to us through the Prophet of Islam (salaallhu alayhe wa aale wa salaam) and the 12 Aimmah (alayhe salaam) we find a very personal and spiritual journey toward our understanding. There are some beliefs (included in the furu and usool) that dictate whether or not you are believer in the Jafaari school of thought, otherwise known as followers of the 12 Aimmah (alayhe salaam) or ithna asheri imamiyyah but not one aspect of aqeeda is dictated by anyone, in perfect reflection of free will.

We are not terrorists and this is not a religion of fear, but one of such infinite beauty that your heart can be crushed in the light of such beauty. The love of the Holy Prophet (saw) and the Aimmah (as) is a faith which leads us to the knowledge of Allah, They (as) are the Gate and the City of knowledge which leads us to the straight path. At the time of creation we took an oath, some of us will go back on our oath and not be faithful, and some of us will be faithful until the end to the oath we took. 110_Covenant of Allah.pdf InshaAllah we all are successful. The journey of knowledge and understanding of our Lord is personal, and it grows and changes throughout time, as we ourselves grow and change, as our knowledge grows and changes.

As such, what I believe today may change next year, and the same goes for anyone reading these words. When it comes to aqeeda we are all at different places because we are all at different stages in our growth and understanding. A person at one stage is not going to understand someone’s beliefs that may be at a different stage in their growth and development. As such we keep issues of aqeedah between ourselves and our Lord, or ourselves and our teachers who help us to understand beliefs through ahadith and Quran. It is wise to reflect carefully when learning, to know that some beliefs are not as simple as learning salaat.

We don’t deepen our knowledge in aqeeda on the internet; this medium is only for simple things. When it comes to aqeeda we reflect carefully upon Quran and ahadith, we reflect carefully on the explanations of those scholars who have understanding, they are Aalim, they are Ulema. We pray concerning things, going to Allah with our ignorance and asking for the light of understanding. We reflect much. We don’t need publicize our beliefs, as it is a personal journey. We should not care what Asad or Jameela (random people) thinks of us, or what Asad’s opinion might be of our faith, Asad will not be there on the day of judgment as our intercessor and Asad is not going to be in his understanding at the exact same place you are. We should never judge other people, everything is personal. My faith is my own, yours is your own, Alhamdolillah we are all shia of Ahl al Bayt (as) inshaAllah, and this gives us many things we are able to discuss and gives us a sense that we are not alone in this world, Allah has given us one to another as supports, not as judges.

I pray everyone success in growing in the knowledge of Allah through the Ahl al Bayt (as) inshaAllah ameen

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You answer a thread that contain an explicit and authentic hadith, as well as the views of one of our greatest scholars, with a ziyarat? Why is it you guys always bring up duas and ziyarats, and never explicit narrations of a normal type?

This is my reply to the stupid/ignorant/evil/retards who probably don't know who their biological father is yet they find it necessary to speak about the position of Ahlulbayt a.s and not just that but have the nerve to defend their position

It's hard for you guys to avoid insulting others, isn't it? So, do you include the likes of Shaykh Saduq and Shaykh Mufid among the "stupid/ignorant/evil/retards who probably don't know who their biological father is"?

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You answer a thread that contain an explicit and authentic hadith, as well as the views of one of our greatest scholars, with a ziyarat? Why is it you guys always bring up duas and ziyarats, and never explicit narrations of a normal type?

It's hard for you guys to avoid insulting others, isn't it? So, do you include the likes of Shaykh Saduq and Shaykh Mufid among the "stupid/ignorant/evil/retards who probably don't know who their biological father is"?

As you see I have proved the authenticity of the ziyara and I thought a ziyara is more useful since

1) We can use its content in arguments

2) Its easy to use it because all I do is copy it once not look for too many hadiths

3) We recite it often so yea

Prove that was their belief as for sheikh Sadooq it might be he had some mistakes which all scholars responded to later on

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As you see I have proved the authenticity of the ziyara and I thought a ziyara is more useful since

1) We can use its content in arguments

2) Its easy to use it because all I do is copy it once not look for too many hadiths

3) We recite it often so yea

I'm not going to take your interpretation of a certain ziyara over clear ahadith (as well as the Quran). That would be ridiculous.

Prove that was their belief as for sheikh Sadooq it might be he had some mistakes which all scholars responded to later on

And Shaykh Mufid, who's comments I posted at the beginning of this thread? Since I believe the same thing he did, then I guess that makes him among the "stupid/ignorant/evil/retards who probably don't know who their biological father is"? If you are consistent, then you will say he is.

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There is no authentic hadith or clear Quran verse (mohkam) which says our martyred Imams can't hear us

As for sheikh Mofeed r.a be prepared to be refuted

He said

And I say that the messengers from humanity of Allah, be He exalted, and His prophets and the Imams from his khulafa are contingent created beings, afflictions are attached to them and pleasures occur for them, their bodies are made to grow by food and decreased by the passing of time, death is put (?) for them, and passing away is permitted upon them. And the consensus of the people of tawhid is upon this doctrine. And those belonging to (the heresy of) tafwid (those who believe Allah created the Imams and then delegated the ruling of creation and giving sustenance to the universe to them) and the categories of the ghulat (the exaggerators of the status of the Imams) have opposed us in it.

Let's look at the Arabic

و أقول إن رسل الله تعالى من البشر و أنبياءه و الأئمة من خلفائه محدثون مصنوعون تلحقهم الآلام و تحدث لهم اللذات و تنمي أجسامهم بالأغذية و تنقص على مرور الزمان و يحل بهم الموت ويجوز عليهم الفناء و على هذا القول إجماع أهل التوحيد و قد خالفنا فيه المنتمون إلى التفويض و طبقات الغلاة

The translator sucks. The word tafweedh means that Allah left all what we do up to the Imams which means they are the ones who create our actions

And as to their sates after death, then they are transferred from (being) under the earth and they dwell, with their bodies and spirits, in a garden of Allah, be He exalted. So they are alive in it, living in enjoyment till the day of death, rejoicing (or, welcoming) whoever follows them (or, is attached to them) from the righteous of their communities and their Shi`a, giving (?) them honors and awaiting whoever comes upon them (?) from the likes of those who preceded from the religions (of the past). And verily the Messenger of Allah (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) and the Imams from his progeny in particular, the states of their Shi`a from the realm of the world is not hidden from them by the notification of Allah, be He exalted. They have that, state after state, and they hear the speech of the supplicant to them in their grand noble shrines by a grace from the graces of Allah, be He exalted. It is announced to them from the mass of the servants and the supplications are conveyed to them as the narrations have come with. And this is the madhhab of all of the fuqaha of the Imamiyya and the bearers of the traditions from them. I do not know of a doctrine regarding it from their prior theologians (i.e. that differs from this). And it has reached me from the Banu Nawbakht, may Allah be pleased with them, a difference in regards to it, and I have encountered a group from those who fall short in recognition (al-muqassireen `an al-ma`rifa, i.e. who believe about the Imams things below their station, denying their true noble status) who also belong to the Imama that refuse it.

You're done

Edited by BillyJo
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There is no authentic hadith or clear Quran verse (mohkam) which says our martyred Imams can't hear us

It makes a distinction between hearing your salam when you are near the grave, and being informed of your salam when you are far away. What does that tell you?

You're done

How? That is saying the same thing I am.

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It makes a distinction between hearing your salam when you are near the grave, and being informed of your salam when you are far away. What does that tell you?

How? That is saying the same thing I am.

Reply to what I said

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