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In the Name of God بسم الله

Q For Those That Believe The Imams Are All Hearing

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Please observe how messed up this was. Like Umar they have quickly fled the intellectual battlefield. Calling me a "Shi'ah Qur'anist", heh. But it is actually a great compliment. Why? Read carefully m

Most people think Satan spams us thoughts, isn't he watching us and hearing our thoughts to do that? Does that make him All-Seeing All-Hearing like God?

I have asked this question on several threads in the past, but never received a satisfactory answer, so Insha'Allah someone will be able to help me on this thread. Could those who believe that the Ima

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Sorry, I didn't realise Sheikh Mufid knew better than the Prophet (SAWAWS).

What kind of logic is this? Nade Ali is not exactly considered the most authentic of duas, so you have no strong proof that the Prophet (pbuh) ever said such a thing. Even if he did, it could have been a specific instance where Allah (swt) allowed Imam Ali (as) to hear a call from afar, and would not mean that in general Imam Ali (as) was all-hearing.

So no, Shayk Mufid did not know better than the Prophet (pbuh), but I'm pretty sure he knew more than most about what correct Shia beliefs are. The fact that the only 'proof' I have ever seen for the all-hearing position consists of a couple of duas, which supposedly have weak chains, and 'arguments' along the lines of "do you deny that Allah (swt) could allow this if He wanted", hardly inspires me with much confidence.

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who says its authentic ?

What kind of logic is this? Nade Ali is not exactly considered the most authentic of duas, so you have no strong proof that the Prophet (pbuh) ever said such a thing. Even if he did, it could have been a specific instance where Allah (swt) allowed Imam Ali (as) to hear a call from afar, and would not mean that in general Imam Ali (as) was all-hearing.

So no, Shayk Mufid did not know better than the Prophet (pbuh), but I'm pretty sure he knew more than most about what correct Shia beliefs are. The fact that the only 'proof' I have ever seen for the all-hearing position consists of a couple of duas, which supposedly have weak chains, and 'arguments' along the lines of "do you deny that Allah (swt) could allow this if He wanted", hardly inspires me with much confidence.

Yeahhh, I can't find any indication that it's authentic, other than personal experience where i've found it beneficial to my general well-being. Fair enough guys.

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Salam Alaykom

There is no similar to Allah, so perhaps if any of us have hearing it is due to Allah giving us hearing in the proportion he allows, so him allowing an Imam (as) to hear something at his shrines or a person who can hear someone calling them from another room is only Allah allowing them to hear something through him, since there cannot be any one similar to Allah all our hearing must be loaned to us from him, as for to what extent one could hear things in the hear after i can only say what Allah allows them to hear, this is something we do not know much of. And Allah knows best about all this.

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haydar:

the belief in wylayah al takwynyah implies Tafweedh because they say that the imams do the judgment too

they took the hadeeth that says " ali is the divider between hell and heaven" and translated it as him judging and deciding who goes where !!!

in reality the hadeeth means Ali was Alfarooq whom through his actions and moral stands it was distinguished who was to go to heaven and who was to go to hell based on tiher position with Ali. (some fought him and some supported him), it doesn't mean that he is sitting there doing the job of god while god has coffee (astaghfirullah)....

They say the imams know everything and they even knew that they were being poisoned yet they took the poison just as a protocol (or maybe suicide? (astaghfirullah)) .

the prophet knew the quraan before jebreel but jebreel giving it to the prophet was just a protocol (like an act)

Yeahhh, I can't find any indication that it's authentic, other than personal experience where i've found it beneficial to my general well-being. Fair enough guys.

mushu you have to be careful because i heard ahadeeth that says if some one falls into shirk god will make it really happen to deceive him.

for example if i worship a rock and think its an associate of god and it has special powers and I ask it for help then god will allow the help to come to me to device me because i have chosen shirk

we have to keep our love for ahllulbait high but never forget that they are nothing but humans and the aim is god not them but they are only the tool (alwasyla)

but tell me the truth like in Iraq i hear our people calling on the imams more than god... they forgot the aim and stuck to the tools

how could we forget the aim and get stuck in the tools?

Edited by alimohamad40
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haydar:

the belief in wylayah al takwynyah implies Tafweedh because they say that the imams do the judgment too

the took the hadeeth that says " ali is the divider between hell and heaven" and translated it as him judging and deciding who goes were !!!

in reality the hadeeth means Ali was Alfarooq whom through his actions it was distinguished who was to go to heaven and who was to go to hell not him sitting there doing the job of god while god has coffee (astaghfirullah)....

Yeah, I've seen some people claim this type of thing. It would be interesting to see what proof they have, but that is a seperate topic.

they say the imams know everything and they even knew that they were being poisoned yet they took the poison just as a protocol (or maybe suicide? (astaghfirullah)) .

I don't believe the Imams (as) knew everything, but I don't think there is much of a problem saying they knew when they would die and then Allah (swt) caused them to forget when it actually came to them being poisoned (so it wouldn't be suicide). I think there is some decent evidence for this position, although I could be wrong.

the prophet knew the quraan before jebreel but jebreel giving it to the prophet was just a protocol (like an act)

My understanding of this is that the Qur'an was revealed into the heart of the Prophet (pbuh), so that all his acts were in accordance with the Qur'an, but he didn't know the actual ayats until they were revealed to him by Jibreel (as).

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yes there is not problem with god informing anyone of any limited knowledge but the problem is with the belief that they have the unlimited and unconditional knowledge self sufficiently

also when they say they see everything it means they have the ability to see our secrets? wouldn't it imply spying ?

what kind of a brain they must have to be able to simultaneously process massive amounts of data ?

they use the verse which says:

and we send from each ummah a witness and we send you a witness upon them all

they say since Allah says the prophet is a witness on all then he must witness everything

but this goes in contradiction with murmurous quranic versus that prove the ignorance of the prophets and masoomeen in specific fields

For example the verse revealing to the prophet about the hypocrites it says to him " amongst you from the people of madeena are hypocrites. .....you do not know them Allah knows them "

other verse saying:

" this is from the news of the unseen we give to you, you were not with them when they were throwing their pencils which of them would adopt maryam and you were not amongst the witnessing ones"

" and if i knew the unseen i would have increased from the good and no harm would have reached me"

" i bound what you didnt bound and i came to you from saba with certain news"

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When I use to believe it, it was because of the Salam in our prayers directly to the Prophet "Peace be upon you O Prophet..." this gives the impression he is hearing us and doesn't make sense to talk directly to him if there is delay in him hearing us...

Yeah, I've heard this argument too, but it isn't exactly very strong. Those salams could simply be reported to the Prophet (pbuh) as the hadith say. I don't think we should be basing doctrines that can lead to shirk-type behaviour on something as conjectural as this. The delay issue isn't a big deal. When you write a letter to someone, you address them directly, but they don't receive it immediately.

I mean, does anyone believe that during the life of the Prophet (pbuh) he would hear all the salams from around Arabia as they were being sent?

Personally, if I'm going to believe that the Imams (as) could hear and see everything, I'm going to need some explicit hadith on this, and not people's own interpretation of some Qur'anic verses and extrapolations from events from the life of the Prophet (pbuh) that could not only be one off events that were permitted by Allah سبحانه وتعالى, but may never have happened at all. So that rules out any arguments based on Nade Ali, dua tawassul, the Prophet (pbuh) addressing the dead at Badr, or people sticking some verses of the Qur'an together and putting their own spin on it. Unless the Imams told us they are all-hearing and all-seeing, I'm not that interested.

Edited by Haider Husayn
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Sorry cant read the whole thread, but a few points.

-We should not use the words All-Hearing, All-seeing, All-Knowing as these words are used for Allah (swt) and cause doubts in the mind of others.

-Whatever our Prophet (S) and Imams (A) hear is with the permission of Allah. Allah has all the Power and He can let anyone hear, see or know as much as He Wishes.

As far as mode through which they hear there is a hadith in Sunni book (al-Tirmidhi) that there are angels appointed by Allah who bring the blessings sent upon the Prophet (S) to him. I dont now what Shia books say about this.

But the point is that there is no issue here. Allah can do whatever He wishes. And if He decides tomorrow that you hear, see or know more than normal human beings who has the power to stop HIM ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì.

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Sorry cant read the whole thread, but a few points.

-We should not use the words All-Hearing, All-seeing, All-Knowing as these words are used for Allah (swt) and cause doubts in the mind of others.

I agree, but this seems to me to be the best way to describe the beliefs on certain people. I believe in calling a spade a spade, so if people are going to say the Imams can hear any supplication from anywhere, and can even read the thoughts of the supplicant to make sure he has the right intention and isn't committing shirk, then I am going to say they believe in Imams that have some of the attributes of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì.

-Whatever our Prophet (S) and Imams (A) hear is with the permission of Allah. Allah has all the Power and He can let anyone hear, see or know as much as He Wishes.

This is obvious, and doesn't prove anything.

As far as mode through which they hear there is a hadith in Sunni book (al-Tirmidhi) that there are angels appointed by Allah who bring the blessings sent upon the Prophet (S) to him. I dont now what Shia books say about this.

I posted a Shia hadith that said the Prophet (pbuh) is informed of the salams sent upon him, presumably through he means of angels. This isn't the same as directly hearing those salams though.

But the point is that there is no issue here. Allah can do whatever He wishes. And if He decides tomorrow that you hear, see or know more than normal human beings who has the power to stop HIM سبحانه وتعالى.

Yes, there is an issue. People can't just claim things without proof. Anything could be justified by saying Allah can allow it if he wishes. In this case, we have a hadith that clearly indicates that the Prophet (pbuh) cannot hear anything from anywhere, yet people claim the opposite without a shred of solid evidence?

Seriously, how is it not an issue when we have people that hardly ever address Allah directly unless it in salah, and any other time they are in need ask for the help of an Imam, when there is no proof that the Imam can even hear the supplication? I am not even getting into the whole issue of whether such supplications would be appropriate. First we need to establish that they can be hear, and I have to say that considering that this is such a widespread belief, there doesn't seem to be much to back it up.

I'm still looking for someone to explain how the belief of all-hearing and all-seeing Imams is consistent with the hadith I posted.

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^^ The general belief is that when we send our Salams to the Masoomeen (as) they receive it. And when we recite Ziyarats (a type of Salam) they hear it. All this happens with the permission of Allah (swt) and no it does not make them God.

As far as supplications are concerned, please read the well known dua book "Mafatih al-Jinnan". All supplications are directed towards Allah.

Edited by Orion
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^^ The general belief is that when we send our Salams to the Masoomeen (as) they receive it. And when we recite Ziyarats (a type of Salam) they hear it. All this happens with the permission of Allah (swt) and no it does not make them God.

As far as supplications are concerned, please read the well known dua book "Mafatih al-Jinnan". All supplications are directed towards Allah.

This might be a general belief, but I am looking for evidence, and an explanation of the hadith I have posted. I never at any point claimed people think the Imams are God (audhubillah). However, I am not one of those people that believes the only possible form of ghuluw is by making the Imams exactly the same as Allah, which some people seem to believe. You know, as long as you make sure to point out that all power ultimately comes from Allah, then anything goes. There seems to be quite a few people that have no problem with the idea that Allah delegates all of His powers to the Imams, as long as you add that Allah is the ultimate source of that power (and you know, who is to say Allah can't do that). You think this isn't an issue?

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I’m surprised this thread is so dead, considering that the Imams being ‘all hearing, all seeing’ is one of the few things that unites the followers of Khomeini, the followers of the Shirazis and the Mallangs, and in general it is a belief held by most modern day followers if the ahlul bayt. Maybe Allah was guided these people from such deviance, alhamdulillah

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(salam)

I don't believe the Imams (as) knew everything, but I don't think there is much of a problem saying they knew when they would die and then Allah (swt) caused them to forget when it actually came to them being poisoned (so it wouldn't be suicide). I think there is some decent evidence for this position, although I could be wrong.

It is also said that, do not belittle them (as) (just as the sunnis say Prophet (saw) was just a human and so they bring him (saw) down even to those accursed 3, refer bukhari) . And also do not equate them (as) to Allah (nevertheless they (as) were mazhar Allah). But say whatever they (as) possess is from Allah and not outright say you do not believe they (as) see or hear us.

My understanding of this is that the Qur'an was revealed into the heart of the Prophet (pbuh), so that all his acts were in accordance with the Qur'an, but he didn't know the actual ayats until they were revealed to him by Jibreel (as).

How can YOU understand Prophet (saw) when he (saw) said no one can understand him (saw) except Allah and Hazrat Ali (as)?

Because our Holy Prophet (saw) use to say that only Allah and Hazrat Ali (as) knows my status, I (saw) and Allah knows Hazrat Ali's (as) status, I (saw) and Hazrat Ali (as) knows Allah's status

I feel you are falling into the same flawed thinking as sunnis(since sunnis treat him (saw) as human) when you say Prophet (saw) did not know anything until an ayat was revealed

(wasalam)

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I have asked this question on several threads in the past, but never received a satisfactory answer, so Insha'Allah someone will be able to help me on this thread.

Could those who believe that the Imams (as) are all seeing and all hearing explain to me how their belief is consistent with the following hadith, and if possible could they provide some ahadith to back up their position that the Imams (as) are all seeing and all hearing?

http://www.tashayyu....ams-after-death

If the Imams are all hearing, then presumably the Prophet (pbuh) is too. So why does he only hear the salam upon him from near his grave, and is merely informed of it when it is delivered from afar? Surely if he was all-hearing, he could hear it from anywhere?

Now, as for those that in addition believe that the Imams (as) control every atom of the universe, what is your proof, and what do you make of the following from Shayk Mufid?

http://www.tashayyu....ams-after-death

The second underlined part again casts doubt on the whole concept of the Imams (as) being all-hearing, since Shayk Mufid specifies that they hear the supplications made in their shrines. If they could generally hear supplications from anywhere, there would be no need to make this specification.

The Ahlul Bayt (a.s) are not ordinary human beings like us, they're special, Allah (swt) gave them more abilities than us for example, when Imam Ali (as) lifted up the door of Khaybar, or when the Prophet (saw) cured Imam Ali (a.s) eye infection with his saliva. they could perform miracles no one else could simply through the love of Allah سبحانه وتعالى.

Now, Allah (swt) has kept the Ahlul Bayt (as) not just for the people of that time, but for the people until the end of time. All the members of the Ahlul Bayt (as) were killed and Allah (swt) has promised to keep them alive:

" And reckon not those who are killed in Allah's way as dead; nay, they are alive (and) are provided sustenance from their Lord;" 3:169

so they are not dead, infact they hear us, pray for us, and help us and are a mercy to mankind from Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì.

heres the commentary of 3:169 by agha Mahdi Pooya:

"Death is not the destruction of the ruh (spirit). It applies to all human beings, but as said in verse 163 of this surah "of diverse ranks they shall be with Allah", therefore, the martyrs who are nearest to Him and occupy highest positions are in direct communion with their Lord. Their active consciousness perceives that which is happening in this world even after their departure from here. They can reach us and we can have access to them. Through the grace of Allah, on account of their direct relationship with Him, they can carry into effect that which they desire by His permission. As mentioned in al Baqarah: 154 and 155, they are the Holy Prophet (saw) and his Ahl ul Bayt (a.s).

If Allah (swt) can keep the ashab al Kahf alive in a sleeping position for over 1000 years and counting, then whats wrong in Allah (swt) giving the ability to our Imams (a.s) to hear us? and isnt replying to someones salaam Wajib? So if i say salaam to the Ahlul Bayt (a.s) then it is wajib for them to return it.

Imam Mahdi (atf) can hear us, and help us, yes he is alive and in ghaybat, but doesnt he help us when we need him most? there are many who have done ammal when in difficulty even our great scholars and have recieved help from our Imam (atf) he hears us even from afar.

theres even this widely narrated story of when they were trying to level up the two domes of Imam Hussein (a.s) and Hazrat Abbas (a.s) and put gold on H.Abbas's (a.s) dome to match that of Imam Hussein (a.s). They kept trying but the gold would not stay on the dome, no matter what they did, they even consulted well known architects which were baffled by scene. One night, an alim of ours (cant remember which one) had a dream where he saw H. Abbas (a.s) and asked him why the gold wouldnt stay on his dome, so H. Abbas (a.s) replied that "in the world my brother Hussein (a.s) was my master, and even in the hear after he is my master, so i cannot be his equal". Hazrat Abbas (a.s) saw that people were trying to do, but didnt let it happen because of the love for his brother.

Edited by AlHamdulillah110
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Most people think Satan spams us thoughts, isn't he watching us and hearing our thoughts to do that? Does that make him All-Seeing All-Hearing like God?

Listen to this guy! LOL. My brothers, most noble e-scholars and defenders of faith, and wahabies destined to hell. Think. You believe Satan is more powerful? If you believe in his miraculous capabilities, don't you think he's already stepping on the toes of (WHAT YOU THINK) is "reserved" for God only?

In fact, you belittle God in a monumental way, your imaginations are sadly too limited to even understand the capabilities of Satan. LOL.

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Still no answer to my questions. Many of you seem to believe that just because Allah could hypothetically allow something, then it was actually be happening. This is flawed thinking.

Once again, how do you reconcile your belief with the hadith I posted, and where are the ahadith to back up your position? And if you are going to quote verses from the Qur'an, provide the ahadith by the ahlulbayt (as) that prove the verse means what you are trying to claim it means.

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And the Messenger of Allah (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) said: Whoever gives salam upon me at my grave I hear him, and whoever gives salam upon me from afar I am informed of it, the peace of Allah be upon him and the mercy of Allah and His blessings.
And those belonging to (the heresy of) tafwid (those who believe Allah created the Imams and then delegated the ruling of creation and giving sustenance to the universe to them) and the categories of the ghulat (the exaggerators of the status of the Imams) have opposed us in it.

Haider Husain, good information you gave. Lets cut nonsensical thinking of our Imams (as) and Prophets (as).

Edited by Zufa
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You should thank brother macissac for translating it and putting it on his site. Maybe more people should spend time reading what is on there than listening to their local zakir, or reading Sunni-Shia polemical writings. I'm actually surprised nobody has quoted me any Sunni ahadith yet. Seems to be pretty standard methodology in these situations.

I have to admit I'm a bit disturbed that a belief can be so widespread, and yet nobody has any decent arguments at all to back it up. Could be early days though. There are some knowledgeable people on this site that believe in this suff, so maybe they will decide to drop in at some point. I am perfectly willing to change my views if someone answers the questions to my satisfaction.

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Still no answer to my questions. Many of you seem to believe that just because Allah could hypothetically allow something, then it was actually be happening. This is flawed thinking.

Once again, how do you reconcile your belief with the hadith I posted, and where are the ahadith to back up your position? And if you are going to quote verses from the Qur'an, provide the ahadith by the ahlulbayt (as) that prove the verse means what you are trying to claim it means.

the same website you got your hadith from has said that if a source has a (?) next to it then its a questionable hadith as to its accuracy. http://www.*******.org/hadiths

the same hadith also states "who believe about the Imams things below their station, denying their true noble status) who also belong to the Imama that refuse it." which shows that believing that our infallible Imams (as) cannot hear us unless we are in their prescence could be alluding to our own ignorance of their power. Secondly, maybe Sheikh Mufid was giving an example of when the Imams (as) can hear us, or was speaking directly about those that go to zirayat?

Why is it then when we do zirayat we address them? we say salaam to them, we say 'we wish our parents and ourselves be sacrificed for you' and why does Imam Hussein (as) personally visit your grave on your first night because you recited Ziyarat for him? because you spoke to him? surely he heard you right?

and what about intercession? dont we pray to the Ahlul Bayt (as) to intercede on our behalf on the day of Judgement? or what about one of the things to do when making a dua is to ask Allah (swt) through the Ahlul Bayt (as)? why would we need to if they couldnt hear us? they had the knowledge of the heavens and the earth, the future and the past, do you honestly think that they couldnt hear us or help us if we needed them in our time of need? doesnt it also say " Imams from his progeny in particular, the states of their Shi`a from the realm of the world is not hidden from them by the notification of Allah"?? doesnt this show that the Ahlul Bayt (as) are aware of what were going through? in order to be aware of something you need to be able to see or hear it right? you need to have knowledge of it right?

it also says "Allah created the Imams and then delegated the ruling of creation and giving sustenance to the universe to them)" in order to delegate the ruling creation, you need to be aware of what going on, and the sensory organs need to be working that includes seeing and hearing.

going back to my first point, that they are alive in heaven and not dead is supported by Sheikh Mufids own words "And Allah, be He exalted, has said, proving it in total “And do not reckon those who have been killed in the way of Allah as dead, rather they are alive with their Lord, being sustained and happy with what Allah has given them of His grace, and joyful in those who remain behind and have not joined them, because no fear shall be on them, neither shall they sorrow” (3:169-170) and what follows after this from the speech. And He said in the story of the believer of the Aal Fir`awn “It was said: Enter the Gardne. He said: 'Ah, would that my people had knowledge that my Lord has forgiven me and that He has placed me among the honoured.” (36:26-27)"

And what about those who cannot afford to go to the shrine to be 'heard and answered'? surely that would be very unfair of the Ahlul Bayt (as) as they themselves used to look after the poor and sick, why would they abandon them after death.

And now my final point, you forgot to mention one very important thing which is in the same website and page you took your quote from.

"And the Messenger of Allah (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) said: Whoever gives salam upon me at my grave I hear him, and whoever gives salam upon me from afar I am informed of it, the peace of Allah be upon him and the mercy of Allah and His blessings. Moreover, the reports detailing what we have mentioned in sum from the Imams of the Aal Muhammad (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) with what we have described of it, in text and expression, are more numerous, but this book is not the place to mention them else I would have brought them in detail and elucidation"

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@AlHamdulillah110

Sister, what is your opinion on the authenticity of nahj ul balagha? Have you read the hadith in it about what Imam Ali (a) said to Rasulullah (s) at the death of Fatima (a) ?

Seromon 202

http://www.al-islam.org/nahj/

What Amir al-mu'minin said on the occasion of the burial of Sayyidatu'n-nisa' (Supreme lady) Fatimah (p.b.u.h.) while addressing the Holy Prophet at his grave.

O' Prophet of Allah, peace be upon you from me and from your daughter who has come to you and who has hastened to meet you. O' Prophet of Allah, my patience about your chosen (daughter) has been exhausted, and my power of endurance has weakened, except that I have ground for consolation in having endured the great hardship and heart-rending event of your separation. I laid you down in your grave when your last breath had passed (when your head was) between my neck and chest.

... Verily we are Allah's and verily unto Him shall we return. (Qur'an 2:156)

Now. the trust has been returned and what had been given has been taken back. As to my grief, it knows no bounds, and as to my nights. they will remain sleepless till Allah chooses for me the house in which you are now residing.

Certainly, your daughter would apprise you of the joining together of your ummah (people) for oppressing her. You ask her in detail and get all the news about the position. This has happened when a long time had not elapsed and your remembrance had not disappeared. My salam (salutation) be on you both, the salam of a grief stricken not a disgusted or hateful person; for if I go away it is not because I am weary (of you), and if I stay it is not due to lack of belief in what Allah has promised the endurers.

could you please give me your views on the following-

Why did the Imam use the words he did, did he not know that after death ma'sooms can hear everything?

Does that only apply to Imams, but not to Rasulullah (s) ?

If Rasulullah (s) didn't know the goings on of the oppression of his own daughter, why do the Imams know yours?

Edited by Ali_Hussain
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the same website you got your hadith from has said that if a source has a (?) next to it then its a questionable hadith as to its accuracy. http://www.*******.org/hadiths

Just a couple of points of clarification, the (?) is not used for questioning the authenticity of the material being translated, it's used for when there is a question about the accuracy of the English translation, it being ambiguous, etc.

it also says "Allah created the Imams and then delegated the ruling of creation and giving sustenance to the universe to them)" in order to delegate the ruling creation, you need to be aware of what going on, and the sensory organs need to be working that includes seeing and hearing.

That was describing the heretical beliefs of the Mufawwida ghulat sect. It is not a reflection of what al-Mufid believed himself.

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the same website you got your hadith from has said that if a source has a (?) next to it then its a questionable hadith as to its accuracy. http://www.*******.org/hadiths

You didn't read carefully enough. The (?) means that the accuracy of the translation is questionable, which doesn't affect the hadith I posted anyway.

In cases where a (?) has been placed, this indicates a question as to the accuracy of the translation.

the same hadith also states "who believe about the Imams things below their station, denying their true noble status) who also belong to the Imama that refuse it." which shows that believing that our infallible Imams (as) cannot hear us unless we are in their prescence could be alluding to our own ignorance of their power.

Yes, we shouldn't believe things below their station, but neither should we elevate them above their station. Most people only remember the first part, forgetting about the second. You can't just attribute whatever you want to the Imams (as) without any proof, and then when anyone questions you, say "it could happen, if Allah wills it". Do you seriously not see the problem with this kind of thinking?

Secondly, maybe Sheikh Mufid was giving an example of when the Imams (as) can hear us, or was speaking directly about those that go to zirayat?

No, this wouldn't make any sense, and doesn't explain why the Prophet (pbuh) is only said to be informed of our salams when they are sent from afar. Why the distinction?

Why is it then when we do zirayat we address them? we say salaam to them, we say 'we wish our parents and ourselves be sacrificed for you' and why does Imam Hussein (as) personally visit your grave on your first night because you recited Ziyarat for him? because you spoke to him? surely he heard you right?

If Imam Husayn (as) visits your grave because you recited Ziyarat for him, then it could be because he was informed that you did it. He doesn't have to hear it himself.

and what about intercession? dont we pray to the Ahlul Bayt (as) to intercede on our behalf on the day of Judgement?

I don't pray to anyone except Allah. Yes, the ahlulbayt (as) can intercede on our behalf on the day of judgement, and you can pray to Allah (swt) that he allows them to intercede on your behalf. Or, when you actually go an visit their graves, you can ask them directly to intercede on your behalf. This doesn't have anything to do with Imams being all-seing and all-hearing.

or what about one of the things to do when making a dua is to ask Allah (swt) through the Ahlul Bayt (as)? why would we need to if they couldnt hear us?

I don't believe that you should ask Allah to help you through the ahlubayt (as), as if He delegates his powers to them and they help you. What I believe in is that you can ask Allah to help you for the sake of the ahlulbayt (as). If you want to prove otherwise, you would need to provide some ahadith to back it up.

Anyway, this is a seperate question. First you need to establish they can hear you, and then we can discuss in what way they can help you. If you can't even prove they can hear you, the rest becomes redundant.

they had the knowledge of the heavens and the earth, the future and the past,

They only have knowledge of what Allah allows them to know, not unlimited knowledge of the unseen.

do you honestly think that they couldnt hear us or help us if we needed them in our time of need?

My current position, based on the evidence before me, is that they cannot hear anything unless we are near their graves. I don't believe they can provide any help other than asking Allah (swt) to help us. On the other hand, I know for a fact that Allah (swt) can hear everything, and answers our prayers.

Qur'an 2:186 And when My servants ask you concerning Me, then surely I am very near; I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he calls on Me, so they should answer My call and believe in Me that they may walk in the right way. [shakir]

doesnt it also say " Imams from his progeny in particular, the states of their Shi`a from the realm of the world is not hidden from them by the notification of Allah"?? doesnt this show that the Ahlul Bayt (as) are aware of what were going through? in order to be aware of something you need to be able to see or hear it right? you need to have knowledge of it right?

No, you do not need to hear or see, you simply need to be informed of it. If I tell you there are currently some floods in Pakistan, do you need to see it for yourself in order to be aware of it?

it also says "Allah created the Imams and then delegated the ruling of creation and giving sustenance to the universe to them)" in order to delegate the ruling creation, you need to be aware of what going on, and the sensory organs need to be working that includes seeing and hearing.

Wow. Just wow. Do you have any intellectual integrity at all, or do you just not take the time to read things very carefully? What Shayk Mufid actually said was:

And those belonging to (the heresy of) tafwid (those who believe Allah created the Imams and then delegated the ruling of creation and giving sustenance to the universe to them) and the categories of the ghulat (the exaggerators of the status of the Imams) have opposed us in it.

He's saying that those who believe that the ruling of creation has been delegated to the Imams are heretics, and are exaggerators of the status of the Imams (as). So if you believe in this stuff, then you are a heretic according to Shayk Mufid. But then again, maybe he is lowering the status of the Imams, because, y'know, Allah could delegate the ruling of creation to them if he wanted. Right?

going back to my first point, that they are alive in heaven and not dead is supported by Sheikh Mufids own words "And Allah, be He exalted, has said, proving it in total “And do not reckon those who have been killed in the way of Allah as dead, rather they are alive with their Lord, being sustained and happy with what Allah has given them of His grace, and joyful in those who remain behind and have not joined them, because no fear shall be on them, neither shall they sorrow” (3:169-170) and what follows after this from the speech. And He said in the story of the believer of the Aal Fir`awn “It was said: Enter the Gardne. He said: 'Ah, would that my people had knowledge that my Lord has forgiven me and that He has placed me among the honoured.” (36:26-27)"

Not being dead doesn't mean they can see, hear, and read the thoughts of everything and everyone.

And what about those who cannot afford to go to the shrine to be 'heard and answered'? surely that would be very unfair of the Ahlul Bayt (as) as they themselves used to look after the poor and sick, why would they abandon them after death.

Those who are too poor to go can just ask Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, through the names of the Ahlulbayt (as) if necessary. There seems to be a dangerous trend among Shias to no longer depend on Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì. What happened to verse 5 of Surah al-Fatiha?

Thee do we serve and Thee do we beseech for help. [shakir]

And no, I am not saying you can't go to you doctor before some imbecile brings that up.

And now my final point, you forgot to mention one very important thing which is in the same website and page you took your quote from.

"And the Messenger of Allah (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) said: Whoever gives salam upon me at my grave I hear him, and whoever gives salam upon me from afar I am informed of it, the peace of Allah be upon him and the mercy of Allah and His blessings. Moreover, the reports detailing what we have mentioned in sum from the Imams of the Aal Muhammad (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) with what we have described of it, in text and expression, are more numerous, but this book is not the place to mention them else I would have brought them in detail and elucidation"

How did I forget to mention it when it was the first thing I quoted in this thread? Maybe you need to read it against more carefully to see why it goes against you position.

And the Messenger of Allah (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) said: Whoever gives salam upon me at my grave I hear him, and whoever gives salam upon me from afar I am informed of it, the peace of Allah be upon him and the mercy of Allah and His blessings. Moreover, the reports detailing what we have mentioned in sum from the Imams of the Aal Muhammad (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) with what we have described of it, in text and expression, are more numerous, but this book is not the place to mention them else I would have brought them in detail and elucidation

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(salam)

(bismillah)

I have asked this question on several threads in the past, but never received a satisfactory answer, so Insha'Allah someone will be able to help me on this thread. Could those who believe that the Imams (as) are all seeing and all hearing explain to me how their belief is consistent with the following hadith, and if possible could they provide some ahadith to back up their position that the Imams (as) are all seeing and all hearing?

We have too many aHaadeeth that tells us that we should go to their graves/marks and convey our salaams to the Ahl al-Bayt there. Here is a SaHeeH hadeeth from our books that says just that. Click here: http://www.revivinga...and-ahl-al.html

This hadeeth doesn't specify just the Prophet (pbuh), but all Prophets (as) and Successors of Prophets (as).

(salam)

Edited by Nader Zaveri
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(salam)

(bismillah)

We have too many aHaadeeth that tells us that we should go to their graves/marks and convey our salaams to the Ahl al-Bayt there. Here is a SaHeeH hadeeth from our books that says just that. Click here: http://www.revivinga...and-ahl-al.html

This hadeeth doesn't specify just the Prophet (pbuh), but all Prophets (as) and Successors of Prophets (as).

(salam)

JazakAllah khayran for the extra ahadith. Are you aware of any that back up the all-seeing and all-hearing position?

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(salam)

(bismillah)

JazakAllah khayran for the extra ahadith. Are you aware of any that back up the all-seeing and all-hearing position?

No, not that I know of. If there are aHaadeeth out there, then the chances of them being SaHeeH would be highly unlikely. This belief isn't as bad as the belief that Fatimah are in EVERY majlis EVERYWHERE collecting the tears of those who cry of al-Hussayn (as).

(salam)

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(salam)

(wasalam)

No, not that I know of. If there are aHaadeeth out there, then the chances of them being SaHeeH would be highly unlikely.

Yeah, I wouldn't have thought so either, but I thought you could help these guys out a bit. They seem to be struggling on the evidence side of things. A weak hadith is better than no hadith at all.

This belief isn't as bad as the belief that Fatimah are in EVERY majlis EVERYWHERE collecting the tears of those who cry of al-Hussayn (as).

Yeah, that is obviously another baseless belief, although I always find it interesting that those who believe this the most are often the ones taking off their shirts and beating themselves. Personally, if I ever had the honor of being in front of Bibi Fatima (as), I wouldn't be taking my shirt off.

I'm not sure if I agree that belief is worse though. This idea that the Imams are all-hearing and all-seeing is the foundation on which people allow themselves to pray to the Imams. Once they realise that only Allah (swt) can hear their prayers, they might be more inclined to start asking Him for help again, instead of always asking the Imams.

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salaam

brother haydar

there are neumourus ahadeeth that back up the idea of all hearing, all seeing, knowing the unseen, the secret of the creation and all this wylyahah takwynya stuff

you can find some of them in usool alkafi

some of them even go as far as saying the difference in the knowledge between god and the prophet is smaller than the difference between the prophet and the rest of the world ( putting god on a numerical scale astaghfirullah)

there was also a book which i think was by ni3matullah al jazaery which if you read it, its not any different to the trinity

but its 14 (maybe fouteenity)

but once again if you search for hadeeth you can find hadeeths that justify any thing and everything

Mula Basim which is a prominent religious singer always relies on these hadeeths

he has one song which says " ya qul howa allhu ahad" about imam Ali

saying Qul howa allahu ahad refers to imam Ali ????

say god is one refers to imam Ali ???

he always keeps malanging as well going on about Nadi Ali Mudhher al 3ajaeb

and many many things which include ghulu which are all derived fro mhadeeths.

there are ahdeeths saying the ant of solomon is imam Ali and the stick of musa is imam Ali

and the secret word that put off abrahams fire is imam Ali and the password that allowed Issa to ascend is imam Ali

they even say in poems

حينما حاول عيسى للسماوات ارتقاء

فعلي كلمه السر التي بها ارتقى

و علي كلمة اللطف التي قد اثلجت

نار ابراهيم اذ لولاه اضحى محرقا

they say that imam Ali is the moon and the prophet is the sun

that he judges the dead and decides on who goes to heaven and who goers to hell

they also have poems like the christian idea of forgiveness cheques

سودت صحيفه اعمالي

ووكلت الامر الى حيدر

هو كهفي من نوب الدنيا

و شفيعي في يوم المعشر

i blacked out my page of deeds and i left the issue for haydar

he is my cave from the difficulties of the world and he is my shafee3 in the day of resurection

just watch this alqazwini on some shirazi channel

he is saying the difference between the knoeldge of god and the imams is just one degree

( he put god on a scale astaghfirullah)

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