Hadith Of 12 Caliphs Doesn't Belong To Shia

[ambrosechappel]

Shia brothers are always happy to cite the hadith of the twelve Caliphs and different explanations are given by Sunnis describing their difference of opinion regarding Shia usage of this hadith.

I have an objection pertinent to Shia usage of this hadith and would like Shia brothers to provide their opinion about this.

I think that Shia brothers are not eligible to use this hadith for their purpose in the first place because they cannot prove the very existence of their 12th Imam. No doubt the 12th Imam is a character revered and respected in Shia religion but his existence is not just questionable but purely apocryphal.

Unless Shia brothers prove the physical existance of the 12th Imam, how can they consider them in a position to use this hadith to prove the veracity of their doctrine. A prophesy is a prophesy untill the things foretold in it happen physically in real world and not just in a person's or a group's imagination which is unfortunately the case with the 12th Imam. He is not a historical figure at all.

In order to get benefit of this hadith, Shia brothers are requested to prove the existance of the 12 persons who they consider to be the Caliphs this hadith is referring to.

[Waiting for HIM]

I guess you need to be banned or something. Do you have some special animosity against the 12th Islamic imam (ATF)? You really do not need to waste your time here. I hope an admin read this and ban you from this site. I have seen your posts after posts talking down on the 12 th imam of Muslims.

Go have fun with your false prophet Umer father of Aisha or was it Hafsa the 2 characters banished by Allah (swt) in Al-Quran.

[Syed.Dynasty]

12th imam was taken up by Allah. As was Jesus if your a muslim u cannot prove his existence but you know he exists. same concept ,,,,and if u dont mind me asking what is the oppinion of u sunniz on the hadis regarding the 12 caliphs (imams in older translations of sahih bukhari) because the sunnis in toronto do not want to speak on that matter at alll lol

[aladdin]

12th imam was taken up by Allah. As was Jesus if your a muslim u cannot prove his existence but you know he exists. same concept ,,,,and if u dont mind me asking what is the oppinion of u sunniz on the hadis regarding the 12 caliphs (imams in older translations of sahih bukhari) because the sunnis in toronto do not want to speak on that matter at alll lol

Yes, the original Arabic says, "Imams" and not "Chaliphas".

The same person in an other thread was claiming that Sunnis don't believe in Chaliphas, but then now he is claiming that in the most authenticated book of Sunnis hadiths, 12 Chaliphas are mentioned.

Can he name those 12 Caliphas which are mentioned in his most authenticated book of hadiths.

[JimJam]

Shia brothers are always happy to cite the hadith of the twelve Caliphs and different explanations are given by Sunnis describing their difference of opinion regarding Shia usage of this hadith.

I have an objection pertinent to Shia usage of this hadith and would like Shia brothers to provide their opinion about this.

I think that Shia brothers are not eligible to use this hadith for their purpose in the first place because they cannot prove the very existence of their 12th Imam. No doubt the 12th Imam is a character revered and respected in Shia religion but his existence is not just questionable but purely apocryphal.

Unless Shia brothers prove the physical existance of the 12th Imam, how can they consider them in a position to use this hadith to prove the veracity of their doctrine. A prophesy is a prophesy untill the things foretold in it happen physically in real world and not just in a person's or a group's imagination which is unfortunately the case with the 12th Imam. He is not a historical figure at all.

In order to get benefit of this hadith, Shia brothers are requested to prove the existance of the 12 persons who they consider to be the Caliphs this hadith is referring to.

OK, so it belongs to Sunnis. Fine. Now give us a list of the the 12 Khalifas the hadith talks about

[ambrosechappel]

12th imam was taken up by Allah. As was Jesus if your a muslim u cannot prove his existence but you know he exists. same concept ,,,,and if u dont mind me asking what is the oppinion of u sunniz on the hadis regarding the 12 caliphs (imams in older translations of sahih bukhari) because the sunnis in toronto do not want to speak on that matter at alll lol

It seems that you need to rectify your information. The 12th Imam, according to Shia belief was not raised up by Allah but is still present in the world as his Hujjat. As for Jesus, I don't need to prove his existence. His existence is evident from the fact that it has been described by Allah and his Apostle(s) and for a Muslim the words of Quran and Holy Prophet(s) are in themselves a proof for our faith.

On the other hand, the only source that explains the existence of the 12th Imam is a guy called Usman Bin Said and 3 other alleged representatives of the 12th Imam. Can you see a BIG difference between the credibility of the source that is descrbing the existence of Jesus i.e. Quran and Hadith and the source that is describing the existence of the 12th Imam i.e. the 4 alleged representatives. Only because the two stories are somewhat similar in details does not make the story of the 12th Imam to be unquestionably accepted.

I hope I will not have to repeat this argument if you people read it using little common sense.

As far as Sunni opinion about this hadith is concerned:

First of all, Shias should not bother about this as Sunnis are not using this hadith to prove their religion to be true.

I have asked Shia brothers to provide a list of 12 historically accepted figures to use this hadith for their benefit as they are using this hadith for over a thousand years as a proof of their faith. Now that I have asked them to provide this list, they seem helpless.

Secondly, in my humble opinion, this is a vague hadith. Just like many other hadith of the Prophet(s) the truth of which can only be known to Allah and his Apostle(s). I give you an example. There is a hadith which says that there is a Mujaddid in every century. No one knows for sure who these Mujaddids are. We can only conjecture on this and give our opinion but truth is only known to Allah. Now if a sect comes up with a list of all the Mujaddids in these 14 centuries and claims that this is a list of our Mujaddids, and scoffs at all other sects for not having a list of this kind. What will be your reaction. Of course you will call them heretics.

Sunni opinion is that the truth about this hadith can only be known to Allah. Suppose the same question was asked to a Shia brother when the number of Imams(including the 12th in question) had not yet reached the number 12. Suppose this question had been asked in the time of Ali® himself or Hasan® or Baqir® or Jafar®. What would have been the answer of the Shia brother. He would obviously have said that this is known to Allah only as to who these 12 Caliphs are. Same is our opinion now. We can guess and different scholars have but no one can say for sure who are these Caliphs.

There is a hadith which says that there will be twelve hypocrites in this Ummah. Now if a Nasibi comes up with the stupid idea that these 12 hypocrites are the twelve Imams. What would be the reaction?

See how easy it is to use vague hadith to serve ones purpose.

Can a religion whose very basis are founded on vague hadith be a true religion?

Brothers whatever you would like to say, please keep in mind my original question and try to answer it.

Edited September 17, 2011 by ambrosechappel

[aladdin]

There is a hadith which says that there will be twelve hypocrites in this Ummah. Now if a Nasibi comes up with the stupid idea that these 12 hypocrites are the twelve Imams. What would be the reaction?

You cut and paste, and then you make up cr*p, but you never directly answer questions.

You are full of Wahhabis agenda!

Keep up, you are destined to be banned!

[elite]

Shia brothers are always happy to cite the hadith of the twelve Caliphs and different explanations are given by Sunnis describing their difference of opinion regarding Shia usage of this hadith.

I have an objection pertinent to Shia usage of this hadith and would like Shia brothers to provide their opinion about this.

I think that Shia brothers are not eligible to use this hadith for their purpose in the first place because they cannot prove the very existence of their 12th Imam. No doubt the 12th Imam is a character revered and respected in Shia religion but his existence is not just questionable but purely apocryphal.

Unless Shia brothers prove the physical existance of the 12th Imam, how can they consider them in a position to use this hadith to prove the veracity of their doctrine. A prophesy is a prophesy untill the things foretold in it happen physically in real world and not just in a person's or a group's imagination which is unfortunately the case with the 12th Imam. He is not a historical figure at all.

In order to get benefit of this hadith, Shia brothers are requested to prove the existance of the 12 persons who they consider to be the Caliphs this hadith is referring to.

[shakir 2:49] And when We delivered you from Firon's people, who subjected you to severe torment, killing your sons and sparing your women, and in this there was a great trial from your Lord.

Why would Firon was killing sons of Bani Israel?

Was it because of the prophecy that there might appear among them the boy who would be the cause of his destruction and downfall of his kingdom?

[JimJam]

It seems that you need to rectify your information. The 12th Imam, according to Shia belief was not raised up by Allah but is still present in the world as his Hujjat. As for Jesus, I don't need to prove his existence. His existence is evident from the fact that it has been described by Allah and his Apostle(s) and for a Muslim the words of Quran and Holy Prophet(s) are in themselves a proof for our faith.

On the other hand, the only source that explains the existence of the 12th Imam is a guy called Usman Bin Said and 3 other alleged representatives of the 12th Imam. Can you see a BIG difference between the credibility of the source that is descrbing the existence of Jesus i.e. Quran and Hadith and the source that is describing the existence of the 12th Imam i.e. the 4 alleged representatives. Only because the two stories are somewhat similar in details does not make the story of the 12th Imam to be unquestionably accepted.

I hope I will not have to repeat this argument if you people read it using little common sense.

As far as Sunni opinion about this hadith is concerned:

First of all, Shias should not bother about this as Sunnis are not using this hadith to prove their religion to be true.

I have asked Shia brothers to provide a list of 12 historically accepted figures to use this hadith for their benefit as they are using this hadith for over a thousand years as a proof of their faith. Now that I have asked them to provide this list, they seem helpless.

Secondly, in my humble opinion, this is a vague hadith. Just like many other hadith of the Prophet(s) the truth of which can only be known to Allah and his Apostle(s). I give you an example. There is a hadith which says that there is a Mujaddid in every century. No one knows for sure who these Mujaddids are. We can only conjecture on this and give our opinion but truth is only known to Allah. Now if a sect comes up with a list of all the Mujaddids in these 14 centuries and claims that this is a list of our Mujaddids, and scoffs at all other sects for not having a list of this kind. What will be your reaction. Of course you will call them heretics.

Sunni opinion is that the truth about this hadith can only be known to Allah. Suppose the same question was asked to a Shia brother when the number of Imams(including the 12th in question) had not yet reached the number 12. Suppose this question had been asked in the time of Ali® himself or Hasan® or Baqir® or Jafar®. What would have been the answer of the Shia brother. He would obviously have said that this is known to Allah only as to who these 12 Caliphs are. Same is our opinion now. We can guess and different scholars have but no one can say for sure who are these Caliphs.

There is a hadith which says that there will be twelve hypocrites in this Ummah. Now if a Nasibi comes up with the stupid idea that these 12 hypocrites are the twelve Imams. What would be the reaction?

See how easy it is to use vague hadith to serve ones purpose.

Can a religion whose very basis are founded on vague hadith be a true religion?

Brothers whatever you would like to say, please keep in mind my original question and try to answer it.

Shias accept the reports regarding regarding the Mahdi so while you dont believe he exists, we do believe he exists.

The Tradition of the 12 Imams is vague to you. But it is not vague to us. There are other things which are vague to you but not vague to us. Take the term 'face of Allah' for instance.

There have been claimants to the title of Mujadid among Sunnis, FYI

Edited September 17, 2011 by JimJam

[haideriam]

(bismillah)

(salam)

Book 020, Number 4476:Book 020, Number 4476:

It has been narrated on the authority of 'Abdullah that the Messenger of

Allah

(may peace be upon him) said:

The Caliphate will remain among the Quraish even if only two persons are left (on the earth)

,

this tells you that hujja is a compulsion and present

(wasalam)

[Inglip]

y is it when sunni imam is in jail that shias think that the govt is supporting him - like ahmed and abu hanifa?

but when shia imam is crown prince that the govt is against him?

double standards?

[Waiting for HIM]

AMBROSECHAPEL is a 12th imam hater and keeps wasting sc members' time and energies in asking stupid questions. I believ he needs to be booted out of SC.

[ambrosechappel]

(bismillah)

(salam)

Book 020, Number 4476:Book 020, Number 4476:

It has been narrated on the authority of 'Abdullah that the Messenger of

Allah

(may peace be upon him) said:

The Caliphate will remain among the Quraish even if only two persons are left (on the earth)

,

this tells you that hujja is a compulsion and present

(wasalam)

Brother, you have again consolidated my position on the issue. As I said the Shia brothers are using the vague hadith to prove their faith, you have provided another example of such misuse of hadith by Shia religion.

One must keep in mind that the context in which you are using this hadith has not just been used by Ithna Ashariya but Shias of many other sects who announced occultation of their Imams at different stages of the genesis of Shia religion starting right from Ali® himself. After the demise of evey Imam different opinions were formed including one that the Imam had gone into occultation. Your context of this hadith applies to all these announcements of occultation and infact the other sects have a better right to use this hadith as their Imams in occultation are people whose physical existence is proven from history. They were actual historical figures!

See another instance of how a vague hadith can be used by so many people to serve their purpose.

[Aly ReZa]

[Edited]

Edited September 17, 2011 by inshaAllah
Please avoid disrespectful comments. Member warned.

[ambrosechappel]

Shias accept the reports regarding regarding the Mahdi so while you dont believe he exists, we do believe he exists.

The Tradition of the 12 Imams is vague to you. But it is not vague to us. There are other things which are vague to you but not vague to us. Take the term 'face of Allah' for instance.

There have been claimants to the title of Mujadid among Sunnis, FYI

So you agree that the Sunni religion does not attest to the existence of the 12th Imam. You also agree that the existence of the 12th Imam is a controversial matter amongst Shia and Sunni schools of thought. From your post I also assume that you agree that you are unable to prove the physical existence of the 12th Imam. Then brother do you think it is justifiable to present the hadith of the 12 Caliphs as a shinning proof of the veracity of your religion to Sunnis who don't even acknowledge the existence of the 12th Imam, and disdainfully ask Sunnis where their list of 12 Caliphs is?

[Abbas]

Salam Alaikum

There's no need to boot anybody out. Sunnis are obviously sceptical about the 12th Imam, and sometimes, as is the case here, come out with any nonsense.

Sheikh Sudduq aptly put a brief answer to such questioners:

وكل من سألنا من المخالفين عن القائم عليه السلام لم يخل من أن يكون قائلا بإمامة الأئمة الأحد عشر من آبائه عليهم السلام أو غير قائل بإمامتهم فإن كان قائلا بإمامتهم لزمه القول بإمامة الإمام الثاني عشر لنصوص آبائه الأئمة عليهم السلام عليه باسمه ونسبه وإجماع شيعتهم على القول بإمامته وأنه القائم الذي يظهر بعد غيبة طويلة فيملأ الأرض قسطا وعدلا كما ملئت جورا وظلما وإن لم يكن السائل من القائلين بالأئمة الأحد عشر عليهم السلام لم يكن له علينا جواب في القائم الثاني عشر من الائمة عليهم السلام وكان الكلام بيننا وبينه في إثبات إمامة آبائه الأئمة الأحد عشر عليهم السلام

"Whoever asks us about Al-Qaaim [a], he is either a believer of the eleven Imams before him or he is not a believer of their Imamah.

If he is a believer, then it is necessary for him to believe in the Imamah of the twelth due to the explicit statements of his forefather Imams [a] by giving his name and his geneology, and the consensus of their Shi'ah on the belief of his Imamah, and that is the Al-Qaaim who will reapper after a long occultation, and he will fill the world with equity and justice, as it was filled with oppression and evil.

And if the questioner is not from the believers of the eleven preceding Imams [a], then the onus is not on us to prove the twelth Qaaim of the Imams [a], and the discussion will be between him and us about the eleven Imams [a] preceding him."

To us, the existance of the Twelth Imam [a] has been proven through tawatur, through the narrations of the Imams [a] who we have accepted as our infallible leaders, just as Muslims as a whole believe in the raising of Isa [a] alive, through the teachings of the Quran and the Prophet , because we have all accepted that.

So when a Christian asks us to prove that Isa [a] did not die on the cross, we cannot refer to the Quran and the Prophet directly. We first need to prove that the Quran is the Word of God, and that Mohammad is the Final Messenger of God.

Similarly, if you ask us about the twelth Imam [a], we say that we believe in him due to our belief in the previous Imams. So if you believe in the Imamah of the previous Imams, you will come to the realisation that the twelth Imam [a] did exist.

In regards to the narrations of the Prophet prophecising twelve Imams, its similar to the prohocies of the Holy Prophet that we find in ancient texts - one has to take it at face value and decide whether it is the fulfillment of the prophecy or a mere coincidence. In other words, we compare the prophecy to what all the sects believe in respect of the number of khulafa and umara, and we find consistence only with the Shia Imami Ithna Ashari sect.

This alone is not proof that our sect is the right sect. This along with the many many narrations which tell us that the line of khilafah begins with Ali ibn Abi Talib [a] proves that our sect is the right sect.

Edited September 17, 2011 by Abbas

[Haydar Husayn]

I think what you don't understand is Shias don't have to prove anything using Sunni sources. The existence of the 12th Imam does not depend on your sources verifying it, and neither does any aspect of our religion. You keep mistakenly claiming that we are using 'vague hadiths' to prove our point, but in fact we do not need Sunni hadiths to prove anything. We have our own hadiths that are far more explicit than the Sunni ones. The only time Shias should be using Sunni hadiths is in an effort to wake you people up, since your sources still have enough hadiths in them to make an honest person ask himself serious questions about whether or not Sunnis are on the right path. The hadith of the 12 Caliphs is just one of those hadiths that should make you think a little.

[Abbas.]

So you agree that the Sunni religion does not attest to the existence of the 12th Imam.

Imam Mahdi is not just a mythical character invented by shia school. He is also considered to be an awaited Imam/authority by sunni muslims (ofcourse not all), although there is difference of opinion regarding his level of authority, ancestory and that sunni muslims believe that he is yet to be born. I would like to quote a non-shia scholar explaining the character of Imam Mahdi:

"Who can deny the Islamic concept of Imam Mahdi? But the Mahdi of shias (who is in occultation) is not the same. Because the awaited Mahdi which Islam refers to is recognised as follows:

1) His name will be Muhammad Bin Abdullah (Abu Daod pg 588) whereas taking the name of shia Mahdi is Kufr and they name his father Hassan Askari so the shia Mahdi is different.

2) Imam Muhammad Bin Abdullah Al-Mahdi will be Hasni Syed (Abu Daod 589) whereas shias don't believe that the children of Imam Hassan were given Imamat.

3) Imam Mahdi's age at the time of his re-appearance will be 40 whereas shias believe that he was already born in 255 hijri."

Reference:

- The difference between shias and sunnis & Sirat ul Mustaqeem - By Maulana Yousif Ludhianwi

The above scholar has made several errors which I can easily debate but will ignore for now. My point was to only show you that Imam Mahdi is not just a shia myth. Even if one doesn't find shia references to be sufficient enough to confirm Imam Mahdi's existence, atleast the shias can bring forth their 12 Imams in theory. Can you do the same? - afterall we all (muslims) agree that there were supposed to be 12 Caliphs after the Prophet. And by the way, if we already know that there were supposed to be 12 caliphs after the Prophet, doesn't it prove your previous argument wrong that Allah and His Prophet left the burdon of leadership/succesorship on the shoulders of the ummah?

[ambrosechappel]

[Edited]

Let me see after this post as to who is banned on Shiachat. This is a trial for Shiachat administration.

Edited September 17, 2011 by inshaAllah
Action taken against that post. Please report any member breaking forum rules or using abusive language.

[Abbas]

So you agree that the Sunni religion does not attest to the existence of the 12th Imam. You also agree that the existence of the 12th Imam is a controversial matter amongst Shia and Sunni schools of thought. From your post I also assume that you agree that you are unable to prove the physical existence of the 12th Imam. Then brother do you think it is justifiable to present the hadith of the 12 Caliphs as a shinning proof of the veracity of your religion to Sunnis who don't even acknowledge the existence of the 12th Imam, and disdainfully ask Sunnis where their list of 12 Caliphs is?

There is no issue amongst the Shias about the 12th Imam. It is obviously contravertial amongs tthe Sunnis, because they don't believe in this line of khilafah and have not gotten their teachings from them.

However, we have all the right in the world to show the conformity of our madhab to this hadeeth, and to question the Sunnis on how they explain this hadeeth.

[JimJam]

y is it when sunni imam is in jail that shias think that the govt is supporting him - like ahmed and abu hanifa?

but when shia imam is crown prince that the govt is against him?

double standards?

Abu Hanifa is not the one considered bad for siding with the governments. It was his students that got themselves on the Abbasid payroll.

Edited September 17, 2011 by JimJam

[Muntaqim Force]

Salaaam

Mr Ambrose, i guess we are waiting for few answers by you on other threads. You said you are busy person thats why could not reply but i see you are quite active in poking your nose into subjects which you have no knowledge at all. You are talking about 12th Imam and in fact you people (sunnis) do not even believe in the first Imam (Imam Ali a.s).

[JimJam]

So you agree that the Sunni religion does not attest to the existence of the 12th Imam. You also agree that the existence of the 12th Imam is a controversial matter amongst Shia and Sunni schools of thought. From your post I also assume that you agree that you are unable to prove the physical existence of the 12th Imam. Then brother do you think it is justifiable to present the hadith of the 12 Caliphs as a shinning proof of the veracity of your religion to Sunnis who don't even acknowledge the existence of the 12th Imam, and disdainfully ask Sunnis where their list of 12 Caliphs is?

The Nasqhbandi Sufis, who consider themselves Sunnis and are the most anti-Shia of the Sufi schools do believe in the existence of the 12th Imam, and mention him in their golden chain.

The problem with proving proof for the twelfth Imam to you is like trying to prove the propehthood of Isa (as) to the Jews. You could show them the Quran and the new Testament all day but they're not gonna believe you because they dont accept the texts which, to you, are proof. To the Jews Isa (as) is 'controversial'

However fact remains that Shia have a clear idea about the hadith of the 12 Imams. And they follow Twelve Imams from the lineage of Muhammad (pbuh). They are clear about this hadith. Sunnis have historically provided different lists for the 12 'Khalifas' some which have even included Yazid and Muaviah. They are not clear about this. But the 12er Shia follow 12 Imams. Naturally, to them the hadith of the 12 Imams is a proof of the veracity of their religion. And to remind Sunni of this and ask them for their own beliefs regarding the hadith of the 12 Imams including their candidates for it is quite valid.

Edited September 17, 2011 by JimJam

[ambrosechappel]

Salaaam

Mr Ambrose, i guess we are waiting for few answers by you on other threads. You said you are busy person thats why could not reply but i see you are quite active in poking your nose into subjects which you have no knowledge at all. You are talking about 12th Imam and in fact you people (sunnis) do not even believe in the first Imam (Imam Ali a.s).

Brother Muntaqim, I told you that you will be able to see me on my days off and here I am. I am not that active and I don't come on this forum just to have a fight with Shia brothers. I actually come here to enhance my own knowledge and critical thinking skills by talking to you knowledgeable people. Some times I think one gets addicted to this kind of sites just like any social websites and it consumes too much time. I have spent most of my free time during the day on Shiachat.

I am replying constantly to brother Jimjam on the other thread and you can see that. It takes a lot of time to write those lengthy replies. Additionally I will respond to posts as and when I want to do this. You have not yet posted your 6 points explanation, how can I answer. If you think you have enough knowledge about the existence of the 12th Imam and you think that you can prove it, then please go ahead. Otherwise at least give some respect to my question and acknowledge it to be a valid argument. The question in this thread is completely my original thought and I am sure that most of the Shia brothers have not confronted this question before.

[AspiringToBeShia]

Ambrose please visit this link: http://www.al-islam.org/mahdi/nontl/Chap-1.htm

and scroll down until you get to the title " The Sunni Hadith on the Subject of the Mahdi ". I hope it helps.

Also>>>You should definitely do more independant research before coming to the forum and denying the existence of the Mahdi. What if I open up a thread and say: Does the Holy Prophet(a.s.) really exist? (Nauzobillah, what a heretical question to even consider...) My point is that you are denying something that is quite obviously a reality.

[power]

Ambrosechappel, the foundation of Sunni faith is based upon a fabricated Hadith the Hadith of Quran & Sunna, which is extremely weak Hadith Moreover, many scholars of Hadith have declared it as fabricated''. YET YOUR WHOLE FAITH IS BASED UPON THIS FABRICATION!!

Can a religion whose very basis are founded on fabricated hadith be a true religion?

[Fink]

Why are you all tongue tied, he is one and you are many? The man brings up valid questions, and I am with him.

[Sheraz]

To the OP plz provide me with pyschical proof for the existence of Allah?

You may need to rephrase your question. Instead you should learn bwt the personality in question. And then further question the presented evidence.

[elite]

Secondly, in my humble opinion, this is a vague hadith. Just like many other hadith of the Prophet(s) the truth of which can only be known to Allah and his Apostle(s). I give you an example. There is a hadith which says that there is a Mujaddid in every century. No one knows for sure who these Mujaddids are. We can only conjecture on this and give our opinion but truth is only known to Allah. Now if a sect comes up with a list of all the Mujaddids in these 14 centuries and claims that this is a list of our Mujaddids, and scoffs at all other sects for not having a list of this kind. What will be your reaction. Of course you will call them heretics.

Sunni opinion is that the truth about this hadith can only be known to Allah. Suppose the same question was asked to a Shia brother when the number of Imams(including the 12th in question) had not yet reached the number 12. Suppose this question had been asked in the time of Ali® himself or Hasan® or Baqir® or Jafar®. What would have been the answer of the Shia brother. He would obviously have said that this is known to Allah only as to who these 12 Caliphs are. Same is our opinion now. We can guess and different scholars have but no one can say for sure who are these Caliphs.

Your sources had mentioned only the number of Khalifs that does not mean that there names were not mentioned by the Prophet(saw).

Prophets were not sent no make vague statements instead they were sent to end the disagreement between the people read 2:213.

Prophet(saw) was sent to make thing clear and not to create confusion among the people

[Yusufali 5:19] O People of the Book! Now hath come unto you, making (things) clear unto you, Our Messenger, after the break in (the series of) our messengers, lest ye should say: "There came unto us no bringer of glad tidings and no warner (from evil)": But now hath come unto you a bringer of glad tidings and a warner (from evil). And Allah hath power over all things.

[shakir 16:64] And We have not revealed to you the Book except that you may make clear to them that about which they differ, and (as) a guidance and a mercy for a people who believe.

You are making such a statements out of your ignorance.

[Yusufali 6:119]…. But many do mislead (men) by their appetites unchecked by knowledge. Thy Lord knoweth best those who transgress.

[Yusufali 30:29] Nay, the wrong-doers (merely) follow their own lusts, being devoid of knowledge. But who will guide those whom Allah leaves astray? To them there will be no helpers.

[Yusufali 10:39] Nay, they charge with falsehood that whose knowledge they cannot compass, even before the elucidation thereof hath reached them: thus did those before them make charges of falsehood: but see what was the end of those who did wrong!

Your point of “your opinion” or “sunni opinion” is only valid when you bring a hadith from the prophet(saw) stating that he denied to disclose the names of the 12 Khalifs when he was asked.

If you can not bring any hadith to base your claim then it can be said that your claim is based on your own desire instead of the knowledge.

Edited September 18, 2011 by elite

[Aabiss_Shakari]

Shia brothers are always happy to cite the hadith of the twelve Caliphs and different explanations are given by Sunnis describing their difference of opinion regarding Shia usage of this hadith.

I have an objection pertinent to Shia usage of this hadith and would like Shia brothers to provide their opinion about this.

Interesting! Shia have much better explanation of this hadith then Sunni. Sunnis have issued different lists of these twelve caliphs. Some of them even say that Prophet (pbuh) said but did not tell the names so no need to ponder about it. Why so? Do they think that Prophet (pbuh) said this "hadith" without any reason? Was the prophet (pbuh) sent to say useless things? Did the prophet (pbuh) said useless words? (God forbid). Instead of questioning Shia explanation place your faith and explanation before the mirror and after seeing name of Yazeed (La'een) as your sixth Imam/calph curse the scholars who gave this filthy interpretation.

i think that Shia brothers are not eligible to use this hadith for their purpose in the first place because they cannot prove the very existence of their 12th Imam. No doubt the 12th Imam is a character revered and respected in Shia religion but his existence is not just questionable but purely apocryphal.

Unless Shia brothers prove the physical existance of the 12th Imam, how can they consider them in a position to use this hadith to prove the veracity of their doctrine. A prophesy is a prophesy untill the things foretold in it happen physically in real world and not just in a person's or a group's imagination which is unfortunately the case with the 12th Imam. He is not a historical figure at all.

In order to get benefit of this hadith, Shia brothers are requested to prove the existance of the 12 persons who they consider to be the Caliphs this hadith is referring to.

Your thought is not more than inspiration of Shaitan. You are easily using words of "I think" very easily for a pillar of faith. Why we need to prove his (a.s) existence? It is matter of faith. We have better sources and evidence and we have faith. How you can prove to a Christian about the fact that Jesus a.s was raised to heaven and is still alive? He wants proof of his a.s existence? Do you intend to sent some space ship for search of Jesus a.s in the skies to prove his a.s existence? Have you sent some mission to search the cave where Ashab e Kahaf are sleeping? How you will prove the existence of Ashab e Kahaf to pagans? O follower of Shaitan! Quran says that martyrs are alive then how you can prove their existence to Christians, Jews or HIndus? Your objection to existence of Imam a.s is same as the objection of Jews and Christians about the life of martyrs as mentioned in Quran. Purify your heart first to see the light my dear.

Though your question is objectionable and wrong still I would like to ask about this hadith of Prophet (pbuh).

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 9.422

Narrated Abu Sa'id al-Khudri:

The Prophet said, "You will follow the ways of those nations who were before you, span by span and cubit by cubit (i.e., inch by inch) so much so that even if they entered a hole of a mastigure (lizard), you would follow them." We said, "O Allah's Apostle! (Do you mean) the Jews and the Christians?" He said, "Whom else?"

There are examples of Ashab e Kahaf, the long life of Khizar a.s, the long life of Hazrat Uzair a.s. What example Sunnis have for the Ummah of Muhammad (pbuh)? Occultation of Imam (a.s) is not something not found in previous Ummah. It is explicitly mentioned in Quran so educate yourself and purify your faith.

[Fink]

Aabiss ,

By your logic we can find belief in anything and justify it thru faith. the fact is there are serious questions and fabrications surrounding the birth of the 12th Imam.

And also contrary to claims that the 12 were named during the prophet's time, these narrations are limited and evidence clearly shows shias couldn't decide on most of the Imams. Just look at what happend after the 11th Imam, there were atleast

A dozen differing opinions on Imamah and who was the Imam. These were the shia that lived amongst the Imams, and here we are 1200 years later claiming that a child was indeed born and went into occultation.

[ambrosechappel]

To the OP plz provide me with pyschical proof for the existence of Allah?

You may need to rephrase your question. Instead you should learn bwt the personality in question. And then further question the presented evidence.

Brother Sheraz, I was not expecting a desperate reply at least from you. Existence of Allah is stated in Quran and Hadith, therefore irrefutable Hujja for us. Existence of the 12th Imam, son on Hasan Askari® is not.

Why are you all tongue tied, he is one and you are many? The man brings up valid questions, and I am with him.

Thanks brother for appreciation. I would be happier if some Shia brothers learn something from the post with an open mind.

[Sheraz]

Well i honestly dont get how to answer your OP.

If your asking me to provide you with physical evidence of his existence then i doubt anyone can? :/

If your asking for scholarly view then ill be happy to provide them.

[JimJam]

A dozen differing opinions on Imamah and who was the Imam. These were the shia that lived amongst the Imams, and here we are 1200 years later claiming that a child was indeed born and went into occultation.

Fink several short lived sects always sprang up after an Imam died FYI.

[ambrosechappel]

Fink several short lived sects always sprang up after an Imam died FYI.

Brother Jimjam, Why is it that sects emerged after the death of each Imam.

Do you think this happened because:

1. The concept of Imamate was confusing and it had some inherent inconsistencies?

2. Shiism was a disorganized offshoot of Islam?

3. Shiism was based on centrifugal tendencies.It first seceded from mainstream Islam and then subdivided in itself. It did not know the importance of unity?

4. It was a more of a political party than a religious sect?

5. The people who accepted Shiism were more superstitious than religious?

6. The people who accepted Shiism were of a primitive, aggressive and unsophisticated mental disposition?

7. If answer to question 6 is in the affirmative, What was wrong in Shia Islam that appealed to the nature of such aggressive and unsophisticated people.

and I have another very important question which is going to be the next thread I will make,

Why did Ghulat sects form in Shiism? Why are there no such sects in Sunniism?

Who introduced the element of Ghulu in Shiism. Was it Abdullah Bin Saba?

If someone is interested in answering these questions, a separate thread can be made as these questions are somewhat irrelevant to the original question.

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Edited September 18, 2011 by ambrosechappel