How Would You Prove Muta?

[Zealous]

Ok so how would you prove Muta using Quran alone? No hadith, no exegesis, no historical accounts and no fatawa. Just Quranic verses.

I'm asking this because I'm a shia myself, and I'm studying Quran and so far I haven't been able to find anything about it in Quran. So if any of you knows about the verses regarding muta, please post them here.

Please post only if you have something helpful to say and if you dont have an answer, please don't bother, just stay out of this thread because I'm looking for some genuine people to give me their genuine answers.

[ImAli]

I don't think you have to prove it...it is between the husband, the wife, and Allah. If you didn't do mutah and lie about it Allah still knows.

[Zealous]

I don't think you have to prove it...it is between the husband, the wife, and Allah. If you didn't do mutah and lie about it Allah still knows.

Well, you got it wrong sister, I didn't ask about how to prove to someone that you did mutah. I asked how would you prove that the concept of Mutah is correct and in line with the Quranic teachings, because most people use hadith to prove that Prophet Muhammad allowed Mutah and he did mutah himself and that Hazrat Ali also did it bla bla.

[ImAli]

Well, you got it wrong sister, I didn't ask about how to prove to someone that you did mutah. I asked how would you prove that the concept of Mutah is correct and in line with the Quranic teachings, because most people use hadith to prove that Prophet Muhammad allowed Mutah and he did mutah himself and that Hazrat Ali also did it bla bla.

Ahhhh my apologies for not reading the question thoroughly :D . Honestly I don't know the answer to that question and I have never put much thought into it. There are some on here however who seem to be experts on mutah so hopefully they will stop by and answer for you.

Edited September 17, 2011 by ImAli

[Haydar Husayn]

It's in verse 4:24 fof the Quran, even Sunni tafsirs agree with this. Read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_controversies_related_to_Nikah_Mut%27ah. The commentary of 4:24 on http://www.shiasource.com/al-mizan/ also explains it well.

وَالْمُحْصَنَاتُ مِنَ النِّسَاءِ إِلَّا مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ ۖ كِتَابَ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ ۚ وَأُحِلَّ لَكُم مَّا وَرَاءَ ذَٰلِكُمْ أَن تَبْتَغُوا بِأَمْوَالِكُم مُّحْصِنِينَ غَيْرَ مُسَافِحِينَ ۚ فَمَا اسْتَمْتَعْتُم بِهِ مِنْهُنَّ فَآتُوهُنَّ أُجُورَهُنَّ فَرِيضَةً ۚ وَلَا جُنَاحَ عَلَيْكُمْ فِيمَا تَرَاضَيْتُم بِهِ مِن بَعْدِ الْفَرِيضَةِ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ عَلِيمًا حَكِيمًا

Transliteration:

Waalmuhsanatu mina alnnisa-i illa ma malakat aymanukum kitaba Allahi AAalaykum waohilla lakum ma waraa thalikum an tabtaghoo bi-amwalikum muhsineena ghayra musafiheena fama istamtaAAtum bihi minhunna faatoohunna ojoorahunna fareedatan wala junaha AAalaykum feema taradaytum bihi min baAAdi alfareedati inna Allaha kana AAaleeman hakeeman

Translation on from al-mizan:

And all married women except those whom your right hands possess; (this is) Allah's ordinance to you; and lawful for you is (all) besides that - that you seek (them) by means of your wealth taking (them) with chastity, not committing fornication. Then as such of them with whom you have mut'ah, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.

[alimohamad40]

also you can not prove the t fajr prayer is 2 rak3at from the quraan alone and you can not prove many things which are not elaborated in details

[Zealous]

also you can not prove the t fajr prayer is 2 rak3at from the quraan alone and you can not prove many things which are not elaborated in details

So Allah lied in Quran when He said:

"A.L.R. These are the signs of the clear book" 12:1

"We have made it (the Quran) easy to understand and in your own tongue (language) may you take heed." 44:58

Ta-Seen*; these are verses of the Qur’an and the clear Book. 27:1

"A. L. R. These are the verses of a Book,- and a clear/clarifying Qur'an. "

(Qur’an, 15:1)

"We have not instructed the (Qur’an, Prophet) in Poetry, nor is it meet for him: this is no less than a Message and a clear/clarifying Qur'an"

(Qur’an, 36:69)

"These are verses of the clear/clarifying Book"

(Qur’an, 26:2)

"These are Verses of the clear/clarifying Book."

(Qur’an, 28:2)

"By the clear/clarifying Book,"

(Qur’an, 43:2, 44:2)

We have certainly sent down verses that make things clear. And Allah guides whom He wills to a straight path.

(Qur’an, 24:46)

"And We have revealed the Book to you, a clarification/explanation of everything, and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit."

(Qur’an, 16:89)

Allah also lied when he said:

“Shall I then seek a Ruler other than Allah? When He it is Who has revealed to you the Book (Qur’an, which is) distinctly detailed”

(Qur’an, 6:114)

"A. L. R. A Book with perfected verses, further explained in detail from One Who is Wise and Well-acquainted"

(Qur’an, 11:1)

“A Book of which the verses are distinctly detailed, an Arabic Qur’an for people who know”

(Qur’an, 41:3)

"We did not leave anything out of this book" 6:38

Quran didn't mention how many rakahs to pray. Agreed. But Quran DOES mention the EXACT DETAILED PROCEDURE of Ablution. Ever wonder why?

Hmm. Well then Quran must be inconsistent because it tells the detailed procedure of ablution but not salat.

[Haydar Husayn]

Are you a Shia or one of these Quranist people? Because Shia rely on the Qur'an and the ahadith, not just the Qur'an.

[Mustafa]

Bismillah

I don't like mut3a. But I understand it. Even if the Quran explicity forbade mut3a, there would still be mut3a because humans can't resist these emotions. Me and my father agreed upon that it is accepted for certain age groups and not for other age groups (depending on the phase of your life). ... He tells me that Omar forbade mut3a after it was permitted by the Prophet because alot deviation was the result of it. Shia kept on with mut3a. ... Mut3a is natural and a piece of information i read once says that circumsission reduces chances of Hiv by 60%. Good luck.

Peace

Edit: Apologie for an unclear post.

Edited September 17, 2011 by Mustafa

[Zealous]

It's in verse 4:24 fof the Quran, even Sunni tafsirs agree with this. Read http://en.wikipedia....Nikah_Mut%27ah. The commentary of 4:24 on http://www.shiasource.com/al-mizan/ also explains it well.

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Transliteration:

Waalmuhsanatu mina alnnisa-i illa ma malakat aymanukum kitaba Allahi AAalaykum waohilla lakum ma waraa thalikum an tabtaghoo bi-amwalikum muhsineena ghayra musafiheena fama istamtaAAtum bihi minhunna faatoohunna ojoorahunna fareedatan wala junaha AAalaykum feema taradaytum bihi min baAAdi alfareedati inna Allaha kana AAaleeman hakeeman

Translation on from al-mizan:

And all married women except those whom your right hands possess; (this is) Allah's ordinance to you; and lawful for you is (all) besides that - that you seek (them) by means of your wealth taking (them) with chastity, not committing fornication. Then as such of them with whom you have mut'ah, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.

I said NO TAFSEERS AND NO HISTORICAL ACCOUNTS. :)

As for the verse 4:24, here’s a comparison of translations:

Muhsin Khan

Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those (captives and slaves) whom your right hands possess. Thus has Allah ordained for you. All others are lawful, provided you seek (them in marriage) with Mahr (bridal money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage) from your property, desiring chastity, not committing illegal sexual intercourse, so with those of whom you have enjoyed sexual relations, give them their Mahr as prescribed; but if after a Mahr is prescribed, you agree mutually (to give more), there is no sin on you. Surely, Allah is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise.

Pickthall

And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess. It is a decree of Allah for you. Lawful unto you are all beyond those mentioned, so that ye seek them with your wealth in honest wedlock, not debauchery. And those of whom ye seek content (by marrying them), give unto them their portions as a duty. And there is no sin for you in what ye do by mutual agreement after the duty (hath been done). Lo! Allah is ever Knower, Wise

Yusuf Ali

Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.

Shakir

And all married women except those whom your right hands possess (this is) Allah's ordinance to you, and lawful for you are (all women) besides those, provided that you seek (them) with your property, taking (them) in marriage not committing fornication. Then as to those whom you profit by, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.

Dr. Ghali

And women in wedlock (are forbidden to you), except what your right hands possess. It is the prescribing (Literally: the book) of Allah for you. And lawful for you, beyond all that, is that you seek after (them) with your riches (i.e., that you pay them a dowry) in wedlock, other than in fornication. So (with) whomever of these (women) you enjoy the privilege of marriage, then bring them their rewards as an ordinance, and it is no fault in you in whatever you consented to among yourselves even after the ordinance. Surely Allah has been Ever-Knowing, Ever-Wise.

Note how they all have translated the word ‘istamtaAAtum’ (the red colored words above) . Note that Shakir is a shiite.

[Zealous]

Are you a Shia or one of these Quranist people? Because Shia rely on the Qur'an and the ahadith, not just the Qur'an.

Yes, I belong to a Shia family, but I call myself a Muslim because that's what Allah calls us :).

Quranist, well, yeah, I'm a Quranist, fortunately.

And Shias actually rely more on Ahadith, than the Quran.

Edited September 17, 2011 by Zealous

[Haydar Husayn]

I said NO TAFSEERS AND NO HISTORICAL ACCOUNTS. :)

So the views of the greatest Quranic exegetes and linguists from the historical tradition of both mainstream Islamic sects has no relevance, even when they are confirming an opinion that doesn't suit them (ie Sunnis confirming mut'a)? That seems strange to me.

As for the verse 4:24, here’s a comparison of translations:

Muhsin Khan

Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those (captives and slaves) whom your right hands possess. Thus has Allah ordained for you. All others are lawful, provided you seek (them in marriage) with Mahr (bridal money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage) from your property, desiring chastity, not committing illegal sexual intercourse, so with those of whom you have enjoyed sexual relations, give them their Mahr as prescribed; but if after a Mahr is prescribed, you agree mutually (to give more), there is no sin on you. Surely, Allah is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise.

Pickthall

And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess. It is a decree of Allah for you. Lawful unto you are all beyond those mentioned, so that ye seek them with your wealth in honest wedlock, not debauchery. And those of whom ye seek content (by marrying them), give unto them their portions as a duty. And there is no sin for you in what ye do by mutual agreement after the duty (hath been done). Lo! Allah is ever Knower, Wise

Yusuf Ali

Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.

Shakir

And all married women except those whom your right hands possess (this is) Allah's ordinance to you, and lawful for you are (all women) besides those, provided that you seek (them) with your property, taking (them) in marriage not committing fornication. Then as to those whom you profit by, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.

Dr. Ghali

And women in wedlock (are forbidden to you), except what your right hands possess. It is the prescribing (Literally: the book) of Allah for you. And lawful for you, beyond all that, is that you seek after (them) with your riches (i.e., that you pay them a dowry) in wedlock, other than in fornication. So (with) whomever of these (women) you enjoy the privilege of marriage, then bring them their rewards as an ordinance, and it is no fault in you in whatever you consented to among yourselves even after the ordinance. Surely Allah has been Ever-Knowing, Ever-Wise.

Note how they all have translated the word ‘istamtaAAtum’ (the red colored words above) . Note that Shakir is a shiite.

Shakir is not a shi'i, and the others are all Sunnis. Do you really think they are going to translate this as having anything to do with mut'a?

Tell me, do you know anything about Arabic? Do you know it is based on triliteral roots? The root letters of mut'a are م ت ع

Now, looking at the word اسْتَمْتَعْتُم, we find the same root. Mut'a means pleasure or enjoyment, and you can see those words come up in some of the translations you have provided.

Yes, I belong to a Shia family, but I call myself a Muslim because that's what Allah calls us :).

Quranist, well, yeah, I'm a Quranist, fortunately.

And Shias actually rely more on Ahadith, than the Quran.

You've indentified yourself as a Shia on at least two seperate threads, including this one. Why not just say you were Muslim, or a Quranist?

And no, we do not rely more on the ahadith than the Qur'an. We rely on both but with the Quran being the weightier of the two, as the famous hadith that is found repeatedly in the books of both Sunni and Shia schools of thought (and thus highly unlikely to have been made up) tells us to do.

Edited September 17, 2011 by Haider Husayn

[Zealous]

So the views of the greatest Quranic exegetes and linguists from the historical tradition of both mainstream Islamic sects has no relevance, even when they are confirming an opinion that doesn't suit them (ie Sunnis confirming mut'a)? That seems strange to me.

Shakir is not a shi'i, and the others are all Sunnis. Do you really think they are going to translate this as having anything to do with mut'a?

Tell me, do you know anything about Arabic? Do you know it is based on triliteral roots? The root letters of mut'a are م ت ع

Now, looking at the word اسْتَمْتَعْتُم, we find the same root. Mut'a means pleasure or enjoyment, and you can see some of those words come up in the translations you have provided.

You've indentified yourself as a Shia on at least two seperate threads, including this one. Why not just say you were Muslim, or a Quranist?

And no, we do not rely more on the ahadith than the Qur'an. We rely on both but with the Quran being the weightier of the two, as the famous hadith that is found repeatedly in the books of both Sunni and Shia schools of thought (and thus highly unlikely to have been made up) tells us to do.

Because if i didnt say I am a shia, some of you would have labeled me wahabi or a sunni or even a kaafir because of my different views. I didn't call myself a quranist FYI, that's what someone labeled me here.

Yes, i know enough arabic to know that the root word is Mata'a. And it means pleasure, enjoyment etc. What do you think about these verses below:

46:20

Shakir

And on the day when those who disbelieve shall be brought before the fire: You did away with your good things in your life of the world and you enjoyed them for a while, so today you shall be rewarded with the punishment of abasement because you were unjustly proud in the land and because you transgressed.

9:69:

Shakir

Like those before you; they were stronger than you in power and more abundant in wealth and children, so they enjoyed their portion; thus have you enjoyed your portion as those before you enjoyed their portion; and you entered into vain discourses like the vain discourses in which entered those before you. These are they whose works are null in this world and the hereafter, and these are they who are the losers.

6:128:

Shakir

And on the day when He shall gather them all together: O assembly of jinn! you took away a great part of mankind. And their friends from among the men shall say: Our Lord! some of us profited by others and we have reached our appointed term which Thou didst appoint for us. He shall say: The fire is your abode, to abide in it, except as Allah is pleased; surely your Lord is Wise, Knowing.

Well, it’s kind of funny how the mutah-defenders fail to notice these verses which uses the same word 'istamtaatum or istamtaa! It’s rather very strange that the same word (istamtaaatum or istamtaa) means ‘temporary marriage’ in 4:24 (even tho no dictionary gives the meaning ‘temporary marriage’ to the word ‘istamtaatum or istamtaa), but in the rest of the verses the word means ‘pleasure, enjoyment’ etc.

You said the root word is same. Well. It's like saying the word 'saddam' has the same root word as 'adam' so Saddam must be Adam. This was the funniest logic I've ever come across, seriously!

Edited September 17, 2011 by Zealous

[Haydar Husayn]

Because if i didnt say I am a shia, some of you would have labeled me wahabi or a sunni or even a kaafir because of my different views. I didn't call myself a quranist FYI, that's what someone labeled me here.

Why do you assume that? As long as the question was asked respectfully nobody would have said anything.

Well, it’s kind of funny how the mutah-defenders fail to notice these verses which uses the same word 'istamtaatum or istamtaa! It’s rather very strange that the same word (istamtaaatum or istamtaa) means ‘temporary marriage’ in 4:24 (even tho no dictionary gives the meaning ‘temporary marriage’ to the word ‘istamtaatum or istamtaa), but in the rest of the verses the word means ‘pleasure, enjoyment’ etc.

Those other verses are not talking about marriage, and words are affected by context. Seriously, ask yourself this question: if this verse was not talking about mut'a marriage, why in the world would Sunni exegetes (who clearly know a lot more about the Arabic language than most people) say it was? What possible motive would they have for doing so?

[Zealous]

Why do you assume that? As long as the question was asked respectfully nobody would have said anything.

Those other verses are not talking about marriage, and words are affected by context. Seriously, ask yourself this question: if this verse was not talking about mut'a marriage, why in the world would Sunni exegetes (who clearly know a lot more about the Arabic language than most people) say it was? What possible motive would they have for doing so?

I understand that the context has to be kept in mind. Well then,

If you follow the context of the verse then you realise that it is against lust and misusing of women for lust. It also says men have to commit financially to the women which can only mean a proper marriage because in mutah you only give a payment for renting and not make a financial commitment. The context of the verse is also about empowerment of wives because the verse says that they have mutual and equal contractual rights in marriages. Clearly the verse is totally against the context of mutah where a man can annul the contract at any time but the woman can’t. Furthermore, the verse does not mention MAHR which is an essential requirement of mutah. Instead it mentions AJAR which is a 'gift' and not a 'payment.'

Source: http://mullaandmutah.weebly.com/

At the end of 4:25, it says

This is for him among you who feareth to commit sin. But to have patience would be better for you. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Well, what kind of a maniac does a man have to be to fear to commit sin if he can have four wives, slavegirls and he can spend nights with as many women as he wants in the name of Muta??????? And why is then Allah telling that patience would be better for you???????

Have you ever heard about self-control, self-restraint?????

Edited September 17, 2011 by Zealous

[Haydar Husayn]

You didn't answer my question.

As for what you have said, I am referring to famous classical exegetes, and you bring me some clown on the internet with no credentials (who clearly knows nothing of his own religion if he claims to be a Shia who is against mut'a). Hmm, I wonder who knows more about Arabic and the Qur'an... Tough one.

If the people against mut'a actually put their prejudices aside and engaged their brains for a second, they would realise that mut'a is actually beneficial for women. Nobody can force them into it, and it offers opportunities to certain women like widows and divorcees that they might not otherwise have. It is also more useful than ever in this age of very late permanent marriages. How can their be 'misuse of women' when both people enter into a contract voluntarily?

[alimohamad40]

apparently the original verse used to say : فما استمتعتم به منهن الى اجل مسمى فاتوهن اجورهن

due to the pleasure you obtained from them to a specific period of time etc.

they say Ibn abbas read that way and continued to read that way and i remember reading hadeeths where ibn abbas swears by Allah that it was revealed that way.

zealous tell me how do you prove that the quran in our hand is authentic ?

the method of transmission of the quraan is the exact same method of transmission for hadeeth

the source of the quraan is the exact same source as the hadeeth i.e. the prophet

the only difference is quran is god's word but hadeeth is the prophets

so if you doubt the hadeeth due to the method of its transmission then you have to doubt the quraan equally because it was transmitted in the same way

you can not separate quraan from hadeeth because quran is also part of hadeeth in the method of transmission and authentication

quraan would directly only touch every subject but indirectly the original quraan could be used to derive everything (indirectly)

this means if you are superficial you can only rely on hadeeth to assist you but if you are an in depth scholar and have access to the true quraan then you can derive alot more and everything as the quran highlights,

Edited September 18, 2011 by alimohamad40

[Guest Monad]

Zealous

read : http://www.al-islam.org/al-serat/muta/ section

In the sura entitled 'Women', after listing those women to whom marriage is forbidden, the Qur'an states as follows: 'Lawful for you is what is beyond all that, that you may seek, using your wealth, in wedlock and not in licence. So those of them whom you enjoy, give them their appointed wages; it is no fault in you in agreeing together, after the due apportionate. God is All-Knowing, All-Wise' (4:24). All Shi'i ulama' and some Sunni ulama' hold that this verse-especially the words: 'Such wives as you enjoy (istamta'tum)'-refers to the permissibility of mut'a. The Shi'is present several arguments to prove this point. [1]

etc

[Zealous]

You didn't answer my question.

As for what you have said, I am referring to famous classical exegetes, and you bring me some clown on the internet with no credentials (who clearly knows nothing of his own religion if he claims to be a Shia who is against mut'a). Hmm, I wonder who knows more about Arabic and the Qur'an... Tough one.

If the people against mut'a actually put their prejudices aside and engaged their brains for a second, they would realise that mut'a is actually beneficial for women. Nobody can force them into it, and it offers opportunities to certain women like widows and divorcees that they might not otherwise have. It is also more useful than ever in this age of very late permanent marriages. How can their be 'misuse of women' when both people enter into a contract voluntarily?

First of all, Sorry about the whole shakir thing. It was a misunderstanding.

As for the importance of the works of famous classical exegetes, i never said they were of no relevance. I just said I wanted to see the verses of Quran only without any interpretation of the exegetes.

Why, do you think Allah would reveal a book for us that would be incomprehensible for common people until some fallible men interpreted the words of Allah? I don’t think so.

And in what way is Muta ‘beneficial’ for women?? Do you know Muta isn’t for any special circumstances, it is open to all kinds of people for all kinds of circumstances to satisfy their lust in the name of a GOD-SANCTIONED-SEX-CONTRACT???

Do you realize what would happen if everybody started doing mutah? Do you realize the moral downfall we Muslims will have to face (as if we aren’t already), if Mutah became common practice every where (as it has in many places like Iran).

Tell me, what is Mutah if not a God-sanctioned-sex-contract for people???? Whatever happened to the moral ethics like self-control and self-restraint????? Are we in this world to go around having sex all the time??? Is this sex-drive so unmanageable and irrepressible that we need something like this so-callled God-sanctioned-sex-contract??? Don’t we have a bigger purpose in life, i.e. to worship Allah???

I don’t have any prejudices. I am a separated woman myself and it's been over a year living without a man. So I know it is not a big deal to do without a man. Being a human, and a woman, I think I would never go for Muta even if Allah had allowed it. Because the fact is the concept of Muta is so totally against the Quranic teachings. It goes against the concept of Hijab, it goes against the concept of ‘lowering your gazes’ (for both men and women ), the notion of guarding your private parts and the idea of modesty.

Tell me something, what sense does it make for Allah to tell men and women to lower their gazes, guard their private parts and be modest, if we are allowed to go around doing Mutah with just about ANYBODY???

What would be the purpose of Mutah, if not lust??

What kind of a father would allow her daughter to do Mutah, knowing that it is just because the daughter has some out-of-control desires that she wants to satisfy?? Wouldn’t the father rather get her married permanently if she is so incapable of managing her desires?

What kind of a brother would be okay with her sister doing Mutah with some man (or men) knowing that it is just to satisfy her desires?? Would you allow your sister to do it?

What kind of a woman would one be, to agree to do Mutah with a man, knowing that it is after all just a temporary marriage, almost like one-night stands???

Women want stability in their relationships, they want a permanent marriage, a permanent husband to take care of her and her kids.

And what happens if the woman gets pregnant after a Mutah?? Will the man be responsible for the expenses of the child, considering that the man has done Muta with countless other women, and that many women might be bearing his child at the same time???

Would you marry (permanently) a woman who has done Mutah many times with different men who could be brothers, or father-son????

This is really ridiculous. What is the point in lowering gazes if a man is so incapable of controlling his sexual desires and he can do Mutah every night with a different woman???

Edited September 18, 2011 by Zealous

[Zealous]

apparently the original verse used to say : فما استمتعتم به منهن الى اجل مسمى فاتوهن اجورهن

due to the pleasure you obtained from them to a specific period of time etc.

they say Ibn abbas read that way and continued to read that way and i remember reading hadeeths where ibn abbas swears by Allah that it was revealed that way.

zealous tell me how do you prove that the quran in our hand is authentic ?

the method of transmission of the quraan is the exact same method of transmission for hadeeth

the source of the quraan is the exact same source as the hadeeth i.e. the prophet

the only difference is quran is god's word but hadeeth is the prophets

so if you doubt the hadeeth due to the method of its transmission then you have to doubt the quraan equally because it was transmitted in the same way

you can not separate quraan from hadeeth because quran is also part of hadeeth in the method of transmission and authentication

quraan would directly only touch every subject but indirectly the original quraan could be used to derive everything (indirectly)

this means if you are superficial you can only rely on hadeeth to assist you but if you are an in depth scholar and have access to the true quraan then you can derive alot more and everything as the quran highlights,

What? :o Are you saying that Quran has been changed????

See, this is where it leads you. People would even claim that the Quran has been changed just to prove their point.

So you aren't sure Quran is authentic??? I cannot prove it, but since Allah says in Quran that He will protect it, I have a firm belief that Quran is unchanged and authentic because Allah promised to protect it. I don't have to prove it to belief in it, because that is the only thing we must believe as authentic if we are to remain Muslims.

But the hadith corpus isn't from Allah. If it was , there wouldn't be any contradictions. Allah says in .4:82 “Do they not consider the Qur’an? Had it been from any other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy.”

If I am to doubt the authenticity of Quran, then I won't be a Muslim anymore and will have to find some other religion for myself. But the fact is when I read Quran, i know it cannot be from a man because of it's perfection, because of the arguments it presents, because of how it tells me to ponder over it, to use my god-given faculties, to use my intelligence, my eyes, my hearing and my mind.

The method of transmission of Hadith and Quran is not the same. Quran was committed to memory by many people at the same time in front of Rasul Allah and then it transmitted from generations after generatiions along with the printed book.

Was Hadith also committed to memory by many people at the same time in front of the Prophet to pass on to future generations???? Hadith wasn't even compiled until after some 200 or 250 years after the death of Prophet Muhammad. But Quran was passed on to the generations in the same exact arrangement that the Prophet had arranged himself by the orders of Allah.

Edited September 18, 2011 by Zealous

[ImAli]

Why are you so worried about mutah? If you don't like mutah don't do mutah. You asked what would be the purpose of mutah if not for lust.....I have an aswer.

Before I married I stayed in my mother in laws house for a week........my soon to be husband was there and we contracted mutah to be on the safe side (non physical) with permission of everyone for that week. After that we got permanently married.

[Haydar Husayn]

First of all, Sorry about the whole shakir thing. It was a misunderstanding.

No problem.

As for the importance of the works of famous classical exegetes, i never said they were of no relevance. I just said I wanted to see the verses of Quran only without any interpretation of the exegetes.

Why, do you think Allah would reveal a book for us that would be incomprehensible for common people until some fallible men interpreted the words of Allah? I don’t think so.

You have misunderstood. The Quran was interpreted by the Prophet (pbuh) and the 12 Imams (as). They tought their followers the meaning of the Quran, and those meanings were recorded in hadith books. Since you don't want to make use of the teachings, even though the Qur'an mentions them, you have become misguided.

Qur'an 3:164 Certainly Allah conferred a benefit upon the believers when He raised among them a Messenger from among themselves, reciting to them His communications and purifying them, and teaching them the Book and the wisdom, although before that they were surely in manifest error. (Shakir)

As such, the Qur'an was always understandable, and did not require 'fallible people' to come along and interpret it.

By the way, anybody who tries to understand the Qur'an without guidance is a fallible person interpreting the Quran.

Anyway, the Qur'an itself says that some verses are only understandable to those 'firmly rooted in knowledge', so it's not that important that the common man understand everything.

You still refuse to answer my question as to what motivation Sunni scholars would have for saying this verse was about muta, when it doesn't suit their beliefs at all.

And in what way is Muta ‘beneficial’ for women?? Do you know Muta isn’t for any special circumstances, it is open to all kinds of people for all kinds of circumstances to satisfy their lust in the name of a GOD-SANCTIONED-SEX-CONTRACT???

What else is marriage than a God-sanctioned sex contract? The only difference is one is permanent, and the other is temporary.

Do you realize what would happen if everybody started doing mutah? Do you realize the moral downfall we Muslims will have to face (as if we aren’t already), if Mutah became common practice every where (as it has in many places like Iran).

What exactly would happen? You do realize that muta isn't recommended for virgin girls, and that women still have to observe the iddah after the contract has expired?

Tell me, what is Mutah if not a God-sanctioned-sex-contract for people???? Whatever happened to the moral ethics like self-control and self-restraint????? Are we in this world to go around having sex all the time??? Is this sex-drive so unmanageable and irrepressible that we need something like this so-callled God-sanctioned-sex-contract??? Don’t we have a bigger purpose in life, i.e. to worship Allah???

Ok, let's all become monks and remain celibate then. Everything you said here applies to permanent marriage as well.

I don’t have any prejudices.

You are extremely prejudiced, which is obvious from your misunderstandings about muta, which aren't surprising given the types of websites your frequent.

I am a separated woman myself and it's been over a year living without a man. So I know it is not a big deal to do without a man. Being a human, and a woman, I think I would never go for Muta even if Allah had allowed it.

That is your choice. Nobody is forced to do muta anymore than they are forced to get married. Others may have different needs. Why can't you respect that instead of judging them by your man-made standards?

Because the fact is the concept of Muta is so totally against the Quranic teachings. It goes against the concept of Hijab, it goes against the concept of ‘lowering your gazes’ (for both men and women ), the notion of guarding your private parts and the idea of modesty.

How can something be against Quranic teachings when it is contained in the Quran? All Sunni Muslim historians also agree that muta was allowed during the time of the Prophet (pbuh), who clearly would not allow something that went against the Quran, and there is little reason for them to make that up since again it goes against their beliefs. You keep refusing to engage with this point, but you really need to come up with a convincing reason here.

Tell me something, what sense does it make for Allah to tell men and women to lower their gazes, guard their private parts and be modest, if we are allowed to go around doing Mutah with just about ANYBODY???

What would be the purpose of Mutah, if not lust??

Again, this all applies to permanent marriage as well. The problem you have is you seem to have a lot of negative prejudices when it comes to sex, even though the Quran makes clear this is one of the major rewards of paradise (ie houris). There are many hadiths on this subject as well, but since you don't believe in them, I won't bother quoting them. Islam is not Christianity, and celibacy is not seen as some kind of ideal.

What kind of a father would allow her daughter to do Mutah, knowing that it is just because the daughter has some out-of-control desires that she wants to satisfy?? Wouldn’t the father rather get her married permanently if she is so incapable of managing her desires?

Yes, I would agree that it would be better to get her permantly married, but if that isn't possible, and her desires really are so out-of-control, then surely better to let her have a muta than to commit fornication?

What kind of a brother would be okay with her sister doing Mutah with some man (or men) knowing that it is just to satisfy her desires?? Would you allow your sister to do it?

Thr brother has no say in this matter.

What kind of a woman would one be, to agree to do Mutah with a man, knowing that it is after all just a temporary marriage, almost like one-night stands???

The length of the muta is up to the two individuals taking part. It could last years for example, which is clearly nothing like a one night stand. For some reason, opponents of muta always seem to assume that the woman has to agree to a contract duration of a few hours, when in fact she has as much say in the duration as the man. If they can't agree on the duration, then they don't have to go through with it.

Women want stability in their relationships, they want a permanent marriage, a permanent husband to take care of her and her kids.

Of course, but that is not always possible in every circumstance. For example, a divorced woman of 45 who has several children might not find it easy to find a permanent husband, especially in this day and age where polygamy is rarely practiced. So should she have to say goodbye to physical intimacy forever? Some women might be ok with this, other wouldn't be. Since Islam is a practical religion that deals with all situations, it is logical that it should have solutions for these common situations.

And what happens if the woman gets pregnant after a Mutah?? Will the man be responsible for the expenses of the child, considering that the man has done Muta with countless other women, and that many women might be bearing his child at the same time???

I hope you agree that the Quran allows polygyny, and obviously the man is expected to meet the needs of all his children, even if several women might be bearing his children at the same time. If a woman doesn't want to risk that the man may not meet his responsibilities, then she doesn't have to have a muta.

Would you marry (permanently) a woman who has done Mutah many times with different men who could be brothers, or father-son????

You really seem to imagine that muta leads to all kinds of debauchery. How exactly do you think mutas work, that random people go into a dark room together and have sex? Anyway, it is forbidden in Islam for a father to marry his son's ex-wife, or vice-versa.

This is really ridiculous. What is the point in lowering gazes if a man is so incapable of controlling his sexual desires and he can do Mutah every night with a different woman???

Seriously, how do you think muta works? A man looks at a woman, decides to do muta with her, and then she is forced to accept his proposal? Try to actually come back to the real world and think of some practical situations. In the non-Muslim world, it is normal for people to have girlfriends, and sexual morality is generally far more lax than in the Muslim world, and there is the influence of drugs and alcohol, but I don't think many people are sleeping with different women every night, or many other of the situations you seem to fear. So how would they arise in the context of Islam with the rules of hijab, mixing between men and women, the forbidding of alcohol and drugs, etc? It makes not sense.

[Zealous]

Why are you so worried about mutah? If you don't like mutah don't do mutah. You asked what would be the purpose of mutah if not for lust.....I have an aswer.

Before I married I stayed in my mother in laws house for a week........my soon to be husband was there and we contracted mutah to be on the safe side (non physical) with permission of everyone for that week. After that we got permanently married.

ImALI, I am not talking about exceptions here. What you did was sure an exceptional case as generally people don’t do mutah to ‘be on the safe side’, but they do it more to satisfy their desires. I’m talking about Muta as a general sanction. Using Muta to be on the safe side is a completely different thing than doing Muta to satisfy your sexual desires.

[Haydar Husayn]

ImALI, I am not talking about exceptions here. What you did was sure an exceptional case as generally people don’t do mutah to ‘be on the safe side’, but they do it more to satisfy their desires. I’m talking about Muta as a general sanction. Using Muta to be on the safe side is a completely different thing than doing Muta to satisfy your sexual desires.

Why do you make the assumption that satisfying your sexual desires is something bad? As long as it is done in a halal way, then there is no problem.

It is like hunger. Is there something wrong with satisfying this desire? Of course not, but once again it has to be done in a halal way. Eating halal and haraam food are not the same, and neither are muta and zina.

Edited September 18, 2011 by Haider Husayn

[alimohamad40]

What? :o Are you saying that Quran has been changed????

See, this is where it leads you. People would even claim that the Quran has been changed just to prove their point.

So you aren't sure Quran is authentic??? I cannot prove it, but since Allah says in Quran that He will protect it, I have a firm belief that Quran is unchanged and authentic because Allah promised to protect it. I don't have to prove it to belief in it, because that is the only thing we must believe as authentic if we are to remain Muslims.

you can not prove it but IT IS because IT SAYS SO ????? that's called circular logic الدور الباطل and its rejected by everyone

you can not prove the authenticity of a book by referring to the book itself !!!

its like using the answer to give the proof. its like some one asks me prove that 1+1=2 i go one saying :

1+1=2 therefore 1+1=2 !!!!

If I am to doubt the authenticity of Quran, then I won't be a Muslim anymore and will have to find some other religion for myself.

who told you that? what has the belief in islam got to do with the authenticity of the quraan thats in our hand today?

how much is your knowledge about the quraan anyway? do you know what the 10 Qiraat are? do you know that we have 10 different versions of the quraan today because each of them was transmitted through a different narration ?

Do you know that the quran we follow is the narration of Hafs from Asim but Asim had another student which was named Shu3ba and shu3ba actually contradicts hafs even though they both claim to have passed down asims version ?

But the fact is when I read Quran, i know it cannot be from a man because of it's perfection, because of the arguments it presents, because of how it tells me to ponder over it, to use my god-given faculties, to use my intelligence, my eyes, my hearing and my mind.

yes i agree with you that when you read the quraan you will know that its not from a man due to its accuracy and level of knowledge presented but you can not know if it has had omissions or additions.

The method of transmission of Hadith and Quran is not the same. Quran was committed to memory by many people at the same time in front of Rasul Allah and then it transmitted from generations after generatiions along with the printed book.

thats false

there was big wars because people differed about the quraan and uthman burnt 6 versions out of what they call " al7oroof al sab3a" the seven letters which the sunnies claim that all of them are quraan from god

so basicly on the sunie belief the uthman burning is a direct proof of omission because they claim that the other 6 horoof that he burnt are also part of the quraan ....

Was Hadith also committed to memory by many people at the same time in front of the Prophet to pass on to future generations???? Hadith wasn't even compiled until after some 200 or 250 years after the death of Prophet Muhammad. But Quran was passed on to the generations in the same exact arrangement that the Prophet had arranged himself by the orders of Allah.

memory in no way can beat the documentation

memory could be used as a temporary tool to document things but no memory exceeds the documentation in its power and capacity. thats why god says in the quraan :

oh you who believe if you loan to eachother then write it

and yes the hadeeth was also been memorized first and told to others and to make it official it was documented .

if i ask you for the reference of the quraan will you tell me "i heard it from a memorizer who heard it from a memorizer who heard it from a memorizer?" or will you tell me " From Hafs alkofi's narration?

back to the topic:

you had a few problems with mut3a

one of them is because you think sex is bad . i want to ask you how were you created?

another thing is your against the temporary nature of temporary marriage. you just admitted that you are separated so that relation that you had was also temporary NO?

so whats the difference between your relationship and a mut3ah relationship? they are both temporary but yours was made temporary by termination where mut3a is made temporary by expiry.

are you putting forward the christian ideology that prohibits divorce?

because bin bazz the scholar of the sunnies allows the marriage with the intention of divorce. So he allows temporary marriage by making it temporary through divorce.

I don't understand your points , you say about guarding your gaze and things like that... marriage is exactly doing that... your talking about controlling your desire and marriage is exactly that,,, control not suppress

if you are talking about suppressing your desire then you must be a priest or a monk who went against thier human nature and fell into a million scandals

but if you are talking about controlling the desire then controlling the desire is by releasing it in the hallal way which is marriage

just go and check the dictionary for the difference between the words CONTROL and SUPRESS

control is to guide something in the right direction

suppress is to stop something

God wants us to control our sexual desire by guiding it to marriage and not fornication

God does not want us to Suppress our desire by refraining from marriage

Edited September 18, 2011 by alimohamad40

[Abu Hadi]

Salams,

The problem many people make when trying to understand the Holy Quran is that they take certain ayats in isolation, then try to understand based on isolated individual cases. The Quran explains itself by itself and they only ones who know its true interpretation are the ones firmly rooted in knowledge (we say 'those firmly rooted in knowledge' are the Imams of Ahl Al Bayt(a.s)).

If you quickly skim ayats 23 and 24 of Surat Nisa and you know some arabic, it becomes very clear and obvious that these two ayats are talking about two different types of marriage relationship. Allah(s.w.a) doesn't repeat himself in a trivial and unnecessary way or for purely stylistic reasons as we humans do. If you look at Ayat 23 and first half (approx) of ayat 24, it is talking about one kind of marriage relationship (zawajtul nikah) and then when in ayat 24, the Quran states فما

It is talking about a different relationship. This is signaling a change in subject or state. If this were not the case then the next few lines of the ayat would be an unnecessary repetition because ayat 23 already talks about the permissibility of zawajtul nikah and gives conditions for it. Also, as for us Shia, we rely on the Imam of Ahl Al Bayt for explanation of the Quran. All our Imams state that this ayat refers to the permissibility of zawajtul mutah.

Also, saying the Quran by itself is sufficient to explain itself without an authoritative interpreter (ie an infallible human being) is against the famous and well know ahadith accepted by both Sunni and Shia, the Hadith of Thaqalayn (The two weighty things). Sunni and Shia related this tradition in some different words, some say it says "Quran and Ahl Al Bayt", some say it says "Quran and Sunnah", but in either case the rest of the ahadith clearly states that if you leave either one of these, you will go astray. So one of the by itself (Quran) is not sufficient in order for a person to be rightly guided. The origin of this well know and accepted, mutawatir ahadith (mutawatir means simultaneously transmitted by multiple sources with the same wording or meaning) is the same as the source for the Holy Quran, namely Our Holy Prophet.

on a final note, just because some men use mutah as an excuse to blindly follow after their own lusts, it doesn't mean that there is a problem with mutah. Those men unfortunately look at ayat 4:24 then ignore other ayats that talk about how you shouldn't blindly follow after lusts and that you should maintain justice between women and act in an equitable, kind, and compassionate fashion with them. So this action doesn't disprove mutah but proves the old saying that 'A little knowledge is a dangerous thing', IMO.

Edited September 18, 2011 by Abu Hadi

[guest 34193]

If I said:

John and Jane tied the knot over the summer.

Would you interpret that statement as:

A - they were married during this past summer.

or

B - they took a rope, and together tied a knot with it on top (as in above) the summer.

If I said, I meant B, would that really be the clearer meaning, even though it is the more literal of them?

[Shia_Debater]

If I said:

John and Jane tied the knot over the summer.

Would you interpret that statement as:

A - they were married during this past summer.

or

B - they took a rope, and together tied a knot with it on top (as in above) the summer.

If I said, I meant B, would that really be the clearer meaning, even though it is the more literal of them?

You do realise the OP is asking how muta3 can be proven through just the Qur'an and not "how can I prove someone did Muta3" ?

[guest 34193]

You do realise the OP is asking how muta3 can be proven through just the Qur'an and not "how can I prove someone did Muta3" ?

Yes, I do. If it wasn't clear I was talking about how literal meanings of expressions sometimes do not convey their clearest meaning. So in the case of istimta`, the clearest meaning (in the context of talking about marriage) is referring to temporary marriage.

[Zealous]

You have misunderstood. The Quran was interpreted by the Prophet and the 12 Imams They tought their followers the meaning of the Quran, and those meanings were recorded in hadith books. Since you don't want to make use of the teachings, even though the Qur'an mentions them, you have become misguided.

6:117

Verily, your Lord! It is He Who knows best who strays from His Way, and He knows best the rightly guided ones.

You have no right to declare whether or not I am misguided. That is between me and Allah. It is upto Allah to decide because He is the Judge. You and I are not in a position to know, let alone declare, if someone is rightly guided or misguided.

Tell me something. If you are an author, you’ll either write a book that is easy to understand for people from all walks of life or you’ll have a targeted audience, in either case you’ll try to make the language as easy and as clear as possible so that you can get your point across. Will you write a book for all people in such difficult language, so incomprehensible, that you’ll need to write at least 10 other books just to explain your 1^st book? Does this even make sense? Why write a book so difficult in the first place that you’ll need at least 10 other books just to explain the 1^st one? If, being a human, you’ll go for the first option and write a book in easy language so that everybody could understand it, why then do you think Allah revealed a book for us that needs further interpretation and explanation??

If that was the case i.e if Allah knew that Quran could not be understood without these hadith books, why didn’t he promise to protect it as well?? Why didn’t he himself reveal it to the Prophet like He revealed Quran and authorized hadith as He authorized Quran as the word of Allah?? Why did the hadith have to be compiled years after the death of the prophet???

If Quran and Prophet Muhammad’s teachings are two different things, Why then on the day of Judgement, Prophet Muhammad will complain to Allah about ONLY QURAN being deserted?? Why is Prophet Muhammad’s teachings not included in this verse (if there was any, other than Quran i mean). ??

Quran says

(25:33) And they do not come to you with an argument except that We bring you the truth and the best explanation. (ahsana tafseera)

Then upon Us is its clarification/explanation. (Qur'an, 75:16-19)

"And We have revealed the Book to you, a clarification/explanation of everything, and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit." (Qur’an, 16:89)

"A. L. R. A Book with perfected verses, further explained in detail from One Who is Wise and Well-acquainted"

(Qur’an, 11:1)

Qur'an 3:164 Certainly Allah conferred a benefit upon the believers when He raised among them a Messenger from among themselves, reciting to them His communications and purifying them, and teaching them the Book and the wisdom, although before that they were surely in manifest error. (Shakir)

Quran and wisdom are not two different things. Many a places in Quran, wisdom and Quran have been interrelated. The Quran is described as the book of hekmah (wisdom) by God Almighty.

"Y.S., and the Quran Al-Hakim" 36:1-2

"A.L.R., these are the signs of the ‘Kitab Al-Hakim" 10:1 also 31:2

36:2 By the Quran, full of wisdom

"Say, ‘What is the greatest testimony?’ Say, ‘God is the witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired to me, to preach it to you and whomever it reaches. Indeed you bear witness that there are other gods beside God.’ Say, ‘I do not testify as you do; but surely He is one God, and I disown your idolatry." 6:19

Why hasn’t wisdom been mentioned here if it is something other than Quran??

Also see 17:36-39:

Shakir

And follow not that of which you have not the knowledge; surely the hearing and the sight and the heart, all of these, shall be questioned about that.And do not go about in the land exultingly, for you cannot cut through the earth nor reach the mountains in height. All this-- the evil of it-- is hateful in the sight of your Lord. This is of what your Lord has revealed to you of wisdom, and do not associate any other god with Allah lest you should be thrown into hell, blamed, cast away.

That means Quran is the book full of wisdom, and the wisdom one gets from this book is ‘Al-hikmah’. Which is why Allah said:

"He bestows ‘Al-Hikmah’ upon whoever He pleases, and whoever attains ‘Al-Hekmah’ has indeed attained a great blessing."2:269

‘It is a common practice in the Arabic language to emphasize part of the whole by mentioning that part after the whole.’ For example;

2:238:

Shakir

Attend constantly to prayers and to the middle prayer and stand up truly obedient to Allah.

Does this mean the middle prayer is in addition to the prayers we are obligated to pray? No, it means Allah is emphasizing the middle prayer. In the same way Allah emphasizes ‘Al-hikmah’ by mentioning it after The book or Quran, which doesn’t mean Al’hikmah is something other than Quran, but actually it is a part of the Quran.

In 33:34:

And recite what is rehearsed to you in your homes, of the Signs of Allah and His Wisdom: for Allah understands the finest mysteries and is well-acquainted (with them).

Does this mean Allah is telling the wives of the Prophet to recite the Ahadith? No. We know that Ahadith are not to be recited. That is why they are called ‘Wahi-e-gher matlu’.

Edited September 18, 2011 by Zealous

[MysticKnight]

It's like the word "Salah", it means "connection" but obviously refers to a specific form. If you remember God, study Quran, read Du'a, etc, all that could be connection to God and part of the connection to him, but it would not be what "Salah" refers to.

In the same way, Muta was a word to denote a new practice. Although the verse itself doesn't prove muta, but if you go by the common use of the word muta at the time, like the word "Salah", then you get the meaning it's temporary marriage.

Would it better if Quran described the thing clearly, instead of just using a word that needs background of ahadith, yeah sure at least to me it makes sense God would be clear on a subject when he doesn't need to be unclear...but to answer your question, I don't think you can prove by Quran that this verse is about muta...it has to be ahadith.

the book or Quran, which doesn’t mean Al’hikmah is something other than Quran, but actually it is a part of the Quran.

Are you saying there is no wisdom outside of Quran?

Edited September 18, 2011 by MysticKnight

[JimJam]

I wonder the OP could tell us the correct method of prayer from the Quran.

The problem with OP is that he does not believe in Sunnah or the hadiths at all.

[Yusufali 4:80] He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah: But if any turn away, We have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds).

The Quran says to look at the Sunnah. And the prophet (pbuh) told us to hold onto at the Quran and Ahl-e-Bayt, we can refer to them is we think something is unclear

[Yusufali 4:59] O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.

[Haydar Husayn]

6:117

Verily, your Lord! It is He Who knows best who strays from His Way, and He knows best the rightly guided ones.

You have no right to declare whether or not I am misguided. That is between me and Allah. It is upto Allah to decide because He is the Judge. You and I are not in a position to know, let alone declare, if someone is rightly guided or misguided.

If you are right about the ahadith, then 99.99% (can probably add some more 9's) of Muslims throughout history have been misguided. Is that what you think Allah's plan was?

Look at this another way, if we were not meant to follow hadiths, how did they become so widespread in all sects of Islam? You think someone like Imam Muhammad al-Baqir (as) wouldn't have known if hadiths were meant to be used? He was taught by his father, who was taught by his father, who was taught by his father, who was Imam Ali (as). You don't think Imam Ali (as) knew if hadiths were meant to be used or not? Or do you think the entirety of Islamic history has been fabricated, but someone the Quran remains intact and pristine? I think you need to ask yourself how intellectually honest you are being here.

Tell me something. If you are an author, you’ll either write a book that is easy to understand for people from all walks of life or you’ll have a targeted audience, in either case you’ll try to make the language as easy and as clear as possible so that you can get your point across. Will you write a book for all people in such difficult language, so incomprehensible, that you’ll need to write at least 10 other books just to explain your 1^st book? Does this even make sense? Why write a book so difficult in the first place that you’ll need at least 10 other books just to explain the 1^st one? If, being a human, you’ll go for the first option and write a book in easy language so that everybody could understand it, why then do you think Allah revealed a book for us that needs further interpretation and explanation??

Tell me this, if human writers can write books that contain several levels of depths and meaning, and that often require years of study to fully understand, do you really think God would write some book on the level of a children's story? What kind of last book would that be to give to humanity? Personally, I would be rather disappointed if God wrote a book that any person off the street could understand, as it would show a lack of depth. And since Allah tells us to reflect on the Qur'an, I don't know how much reflection could be done on a shallow book.

The truth is that any written document with any complexity to it at all will automatically be subject to multiple interpretations. We see that even for example in the U.S., where different people have different interpretations of the Constitution. Therefore, to prevent everyone going off in their own direction, it is necessary to have a guided interpreter, which was the Prophet (pbuh) and the Imams (as).

If that was the case i.e if Allah knew that Quran could not be understood without these hadith books, why didn’t he promise to protect it as well?? Why didn’t he himself reveal it to the Prophet like He revealed Quran and authorized hadith as He authorized Quran as the word of Allah?? Why did the hadith have to be compiled years after the death of the prophet???

The hadiths are protected to some extent. At the minimum, when both sects of Islam agree on a hadith, which is multiply attested within both of those sects, then the chances of it being fabricated is virtually zero.

The hadiths are revelation, just not in the form of first person speach like the Quran is.

Qur'an 53:2-4 Your companion does not err, nor does he go astray; Nor does he speak out of desire. It is naught but revelation that is revealed, [shakir]

Regarding the hadiths being compiled years after the Prophet, this is incorrect. They existed during his time, they just weren't written down, just like the Qur'an wasn't written down. Why do you think Allah choose 7th century Arabia as the location for his final revelation? One of the reasons was their strong oral tradition. In addition, the 12 Imams lived through times when hadiths were written down, so their followers could write down what was told to them by an Imam. This is one of the reasons it is necessary to believe in the 12 Imams (as).

If Quran and Prophet Muhammad’s teachings are two different things, Why then on the day of Judgement, Prophet Muhammad will complain to Allah about ONLY QURAN being deserted?? Why is Prophet Muhammad’s teachings not included in this verse (if there was any, other than Quran i mean). ??

You cannot abandon the Prophetic teachings and remain faithful to the Quran, or vice-versa. The two are interlinked, but the Quran is the weightier of the two.

Quran says

(25:33) And they do not come to you with an argument except that We bring you the truth and the best explanation. (ahsana tafseera)

Then upon Us is its clarification/explanation. (Qur'an, 75:16-19)

"And We have revealed the Book to you, a clarification/explanation of everything, and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit." (Qur’an, 16:89)

"A. L. R. A Book with perfected verses, further explained in detail from One Who is Wise and Well-acquainted"

(Qur’an, 11:1)

I don't see how these verses really prove your case. The problem is you don't understand that the Prophet (pbuh) was a walking example of the Qur'an. His words and actions were part of the revelation. For example, in the verse verse you gave, what makes you think the explanation is found in the Quran, and wasn't given by the Prophet (pbuh)? Do you think that the Quran explictly contains the answer to every single question the Prophet (pbuh) was ever asked?

Quran and wisdom are not two different things. Many a places in Quran, wisdom and Quran have been interrelated. The Quran is described as the book of hekmah (wisdom) by God Almighty.

"Y.S., and the Quran Al-Hakim" 36:1-2

"A.L.R., these are the signs of the ‘Kitab Al-Hakim" 10:1 also 31:2

36:2 By the Quran, full of wisdom

"Say, ‘What is the greatest testimony?’ Say, ‘God is the witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired to me, to preach it to you and whomever it reaches. Indeed you bear witness that there are other gods beside God.’ Say, ‘I do not testify as you do; but surely He is one God, and I disown your idolatry." 6:19

Why hasn’t wisdom been mentioned here if it is something other than Quran??

Also see 17:36-39:

Shakir

And follow not that of which you have not the knowledge; surely the hearing and the sight and the heart, all of these, shall be questioned about that.And do not go about in the land exultingly, for you cannot cut through the earth nor reach the mountains in height. All this-- the evil of it-- is hateful in the sight of your Lord. This is of what your Lord has revealed to you of wisdom, and do not associate any other god with Allah lest you should be thrown into hell, blamed, cast away.

That means Quran is the book full of wisdom, and the wisdom one gets from this book is ‘Al-hikmah’. Which is why Allah said:

"He bestows ‘Al-Hikmah’ upon whoever He pleases, and whoever attains ‘Al-Hekmah’ has indeed attained a great blessing."2:269

‘It is a common practice in the Arabic language to emphasize part of the whole by mentioning that part after the whole.’ For example;

2:238:

Shakir

Attend constantly to prayers and to the middle prayer and stand up truly obedient to Allah.

Does this mean the middle prayer is in addition to the prayers we are obligated to pray? No, it means Allah is emphasizing the middle prayer. In the same way Allah emphasizes ‘Al-hikmah’ by mentioning it after The book or Quran, which doesn’t mean Al’hikmah is something other than Quran, but actually it is a part of the Quran.

In 33:34:

And recite what is rehearsed to you in your homes, of the Signs of Allah and His Wisdom: for Allah understands the finest mysteries and is well-acquainted (with them).

Does this mean Allah is telling the wives of the Prophet to recite the Ahadith? No. We know that Ahadith are not to be recited. That is why they are called ‘Wahi-e-gher matlu’.

So you have gone off to some Quranist site and copied and pasted in order to provide an answer? How sad. Needless to say the arguments are worthless, but since you have resorted to unsourced copy and pasting, I'm not going to bother responding, and will leave you to reflect on whether this all makes sense for yourself.

[alimohamad40]

Salaam

Oh you who believe if you dispute in a matter then refer it to god and his messenger

This verse proves that hadeeth which is the reference to the messenger is holy revelation too which must be taken

Another verse

Oh you who believe whatever the messenger has given you then take it and what he denied you then refrain from it.

This verse also proves that hadeeth is holy

[kadhim]

Muslims just do not deserve Islamic Law.