Questions That Led The Shia To The Truth

[theTRUEislam]

I BEG YOU SHIA TO WATCH THIS VIDEO AND ANSWER THE QUESTION'S ASKED

THANK VERY MUCH

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/4xk5RmBzF_0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Guest Mushu]

I havn't heard anything enlightening, just advertising for his book and waffle. Alot of inaccuracies, we never say Omar and Abu Bakr were kuffar.

Out of interest, why would Imam Ali (as) giving his daughter mean he's not infallable? Looooooool this is getting sillier and sillier, whats so perplexing? We never said that Omar was not a Muslim :lol:

[Haydar Husayn]

Too boring, and lame questions. Even if hypothetically a Sunni could convince me that Shi'ism is wrong, he could never convince me of the truth of his religion. It is just too incoherent. The questions presented here aren't that good at all, whereas the questions Shias can ask of Sunnis are so good that knowledgeable Sunnis tell the others to stay away from Shias for fear of being consumed with doubts. On the other hand, I have never heard of a Shia scholar telling Shias not to talk to Sunnis.

The only real question I could detect in this video was the one about Umm Kulthum being married to Umar. I don't really know why a Sunni would want to go there, because their own narrations don't exactly put the affair in a very flattering light (read http://www.shiachat....ost__p__2178526). From our side, most Shias will just deny the event ever took place, so they have no questions to answer, but for those of us that do accept it happened, we have hadiths from our Imams (as) that explain that Imam Ali (as) was forced into giving her in marriage (read http://www.revivinga...mm-kulthum.html ).

Edited September 16, 2011 by Haider Husayn

[Replicant]

1) Our definition of Sahaba differs from you.

2) We love the Sahaba, but only the ones that deserve respect. Not all of them were good, otherwise why would there be a verse warning the Prophet (pbuh) about hypocrites surrounding him? If sahabas killed each other (Battle of Siffin and Jamal), how can God be pleased with them all?

3) The issue of Imam Ali (as) marrying his daughter to Umar is widely debated, you will find countless threads on this website about it. Search them up rather than starting another one on the same topic.

4) With your capital lettered introductory post, I was expecting some masterpiece of a question that will baffle Shias. I was underwhelmed.

[theTRUEislam]

Do shia call to anyone other than Allaah for help (i.e dead people)?

Edited September 15, 2011 by theTRUEislam

[Guest Mushu]

Do shia call to anyone other Allaah for help (i.e dead people)?

than*

Yep.

2:54 "And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah. "They are dead." Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not."

[Replicant]

Do shia call to anyone other than Allaah for help (i.e dead people)?

Another much debated topic. Please search this website, you will literally find thousands of threads about it.

Otherwise this will turn into another thread with the same old topics debated which just gets boring.

Edited September 15, 2011 by Replicant

[Saintly_Jinn23]

Do shia call to anyone other than Allaah for help (i.e dead people)?

No, we call on Allah's help through his Sent Ones, there's a difference. To say "other," is to suggest they act independently from the will of Allah when they act only within its boundaries.

Yep.

2:54 "And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah. "They are dead." Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not."

Mushu, don't just say "Yep," you make it sound like we see the saints and prophets as authorities outside Allah's will when you answer his question so simply. :(

[Guest Mushu]

No, we call on Allah's help through his Sent Ones, there's a difference. To say "other," is to suggest they act independently from the will of Allah when they act only within its boundaries.

Mushu, don't just say "Yep," you make it sound like we see the saints and prophets as authorities outside Allah's will when you answer his question so simply. :(

Lol, yeahhh I know but he's just a troll, don't waste your time and effort man.

[theTRUEislam]

Yep.

2:54 "And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah. "They are dead." Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not."

Just checked 2:54 and it says: And (remember) when Mûsâ (Moses) said to his people: "O my people! Verily, you have wronged yourselves by worshipping the calf. So turn in repentance to your Creator and kill yourselves (the innocent kill the wrongdoers among you), that will be better for you with your Creator." Then He accepted your repentance. Truly, He is the One Who accepts repentance, the Most Merciful

[Haydar Husayn]

Just checked 2:54 and it says: And (remember) when Mûsâ (Moses) said to his people: "O my people! Verily, you have wronged yourselves by worshipping the calf. So turn in repentance to your Creator and kill yourselves (the innocent kill the wrongdoers among you), that will be better for you with your Creator." Then He accepted your repentance. Truly, He is the One Who accepts repentance, the Most Merciful

He meant 2:154.

[theTRUEislam]

this aint no troll

[Guest Mushu]

Yeahhh I meant 154, sorry.

[theTRUEislam]

kl, i checked that verse but it dont mean we call other than Allaah for help. 1:5 <a l="arb&nSora=1&nAya=5#1_5"" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 148); text-decoration: none; "> You (Alone) we worship, and You (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything).

[Guest Mushu]

kl, i checked that verse but it dont mean we call other than Allaah for help. 1:5 <a l="arb&nSora=1&nAya=5#1_5"" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 148); text-decoration: none; ">You (Alone) we worship, and You (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything).

Allah! There is no god but He,- the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory). S. 2:255

Verily your Lord is Allah, who created the heavens and the earth in six days, and is firmly established on the throne (of authority), regulating and governing all things. No intercessor (can plead with Him) except after His leave (hath been obtained). This is Allah your Lord; Him therefore serve ye: will ye not receive admonition? S. 10:3

On the day when We shall gather the righteous unto the Beneficent, a goodly company. And drive the guilty unto hell, a weary herd, They will have no power of intercession, save him who hath made a covenant with his Lord. S. 19:85-87

On that Day shall no intercession avail except for those for whom permission has been granted by (Allah) Most Gracious and whose word is acceptable to Him. S. 20:109

And We did not send before you any messenger but We revealed to him that there is no god but Me, therefore serve Me. And they say: The Beneficent Allah has taken to Himself a son. Glory be to Him. Nay! they are honored servants They do not precede Him in speech and (only) according to His commandment do they act. He knows what is before them and what is behind them, and they do not intercede except for him whom He approves and for fear of Him they tremble. And whoever of them should say: Surely I am a god besides Him, such a one do We recompense with hell; thus do, We recompense the unjust. S. 21:25-29

"No intercession can avail in His Presence, except for those for whom He has granted permission. So far (is this the case) that, when terror is removed from their hearts (at the Day of Judgment, then) will they say, ‘what is it that your Lord commanded?’ they will say, ‘That which is true and just; and He is the Most High Most Great’." S. 34:23

Those who sustain the Throne (of Allah) and those around it Sing Glory and Praise to their Lord; believe in Him; and implore Forgiveness for those who believe: "Our Lord! Thy Reach is over all things, in Mercy and Knowledge. Forgive, then, those who turn in Repentance, and follow Thy Path; and preserve them from the Penalty of the Blazing Fire! And grant, our Lord! that they enter the Gardens of Eternity, which Thou hast promised to them, and to the righteous among their fathers, their wives, and their posterity! For Thou art (He), the Exalted in Might, Full of Wisdom. And preserve them from (all) ills; and any whom Thou dost preserve from ills that Day,- on them wilt Thou have bestowed Mercy indeed: and that will be truly (for them) the highest Achievement." S. 40:7-9

And those unto whom they cry instead of Him possess no power of intercession, saving him who beareth witness unto the Truth knowingly. S. 43:86

How many-so-ever be the angels in the heavens, their intercession will avail nothing except after Allah has given leave for whom He pleases and that he is acceptable to Him. S. 53:26

And some more from Bukhari and Muslim,

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:

The Prophet said, "A man keeps on asking others for something till he comes on the Day of Resurrection without any piece of flesh on his face." The Prophet added, "On the Day of Resurrection, the Sun will come near (to, the people) to such an extent that the sweat will reach up to the middle of the ears, so, when all the people are in that state, they will ask Adam for help, and then Moses, and then Muhammad (p.b.u.h)." The sub-narrator added "Muhammad will intercede with Allah to judge amongst the people. He will proceed on till he will hold the ring of the door (of Paradise) and then Allah will exalt him to Maqam Mahmud (the privilege of intercession, etc.). And all the people of the gathering will send their praises to Allah. (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 24, Number 553)

... 'Surely! Allah wrongs not even of the weight of an atom (or a smallest ant) but if there is any good (done) He doubles it.' (4.40) The Prophet added, "Then the prophets and Angels and the believers will intercede, and (last of all) the Almighty (Allah) will say, ‘Now remains My Intercession.’ He will then hold a handful of the Fire from which He will take out some people whose bodies have been burnt, and they will be thrown into a river at the entrance of Paradise, called the water of life ... (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 532s)

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "For every Prophet there is one invocation which is definitely fulfilled by Allah, and I wish, if Allah will, to keep my that (special) invocation as to be the intercession for my followers on the Day of Resurrection." (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 566)

Narrated Ma’bad bin Hilal Al’Anzi:

We, i.e., some people from Basra gathered and went to Anas bin Malik, and we went in company with Thabit Al-Bunnani so that he might ask him about the Hadith of Intercession on our behalf. Behold, Anas was in his palace, and our arrival coincided with his Duha prayer. We asked permission to enter and he admitted us while he was sitting on his bed. We said to Thabit, "Do not ask him about anything else first but the Hadith of Intercession." He said, "O Abu Hamza! There are your brethren from Basra coming to ask you about the Hadith of Intercession." Anas then said, "Muhammad talked to us saying, ‘On the Day of Resurrection the people will surge with each other like waves, and then they will come to Adam and say, ‘Please intercede for us with your Lord.’ He will say, ‘I am not fit for that but you'd better go to Abraham as he is the Khalil of the Beneficent.’ They will go to Abraham and he will say, ‘I am not fit for that, but you'd better go to Moses as he is the one to whom Allah spoke directly.’ So they will go to Moses and he will say, ‘I am not fit for that, but you'd better go to Jesus as he is a soul created by Allah and His Word.’ (Be: And it was) they will go to Jesus and he will say, ‘I am not fit for that, but you'd better go to Muhammad.’

They would come to me and I would say, ‘I am for that.’ Then I will ask for my Lord's permission, and it will be given, and then He will inspire me to praise Him with such praises as I do not know now. So I will praise Him with those praises and will fall down, prostrate before Him. Then it will be said, ‘O Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to; and ask, for your will be granted (your request); and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted.’ I will say, ‘O Lord, my followers! My followers!’ And then it will be said, ‘Go and take out of Hell (Fire) all those who have faith in their hearts, equal to the weight of a barley grain.’ I will go and do so and return to praise Him with the same praises, and fall down (prostrate) before Him. Then it will be said, ‘O Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to, and ask, for you will be granted (your request); and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted.’ I will say, ‘O Lord, my followers! My followers!’ It will be said, ‘Go and take out of it all those who have faith in their hearts equal to the weight of a small ant or a mustard seed.’ I will go and do so and return to praise Him with the same praises, and fall down in prostration before Him. It will be said, ‘O, Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to, and ask, for you will be granted (your request); and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted.’ I will say, ‘O Lord, my followers!’ Then He will say, ‘Go and take out (all those) in whose hearts there is faith even to the lightest, lightest mustard seed. (Take them) out of the Fire.’ I will go and do so."

When we left Anas, I said to some of my companions, "Let's pass by Al-Hasan who is hiding himself in the house of Abi Khalifa and request him to tell us what Anas bin Malik has told us." So we went to him and we greeted him and he admitted us. We said to him, "O Abu Said! We came to you from your brother Anas Bin Malik and he related to us a Hadith about the intercession the like of which I have never heard." He said, "What is that?" Then we told him of the Hadith and said, "He stopped at this point (of the Hadith)." He said, "What then?" We said, "He did not add anything to that." He said, Anas related the Hadith to me twenty years ago when he was a young fellow. I don't know whether he forgot or if he did not like to let you depend on what he might have said." We said, "O Abu Said! Let us know that." He smiled and said, "Man was created hasty. I did not mention that, but that I wanted to inform you of it.

Anas told me the same as he told you and said that the Prophet added, ‘I then return for a fourth time and praise Him similarly and prostrate before Him me the same as he ‘O Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to; and ask, for you will be granted (your request): and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted.’ I will say, ‘O Lord, allow me to intercede for whoever said, ‘None has the right to be worshiped except Allah.’ Then Allah will say, ‘By my Power, and my Majesty, and by My Supremacy, and by My Greatness, I will take out of Hell (Fire) whoever said: ‘None has the right to be worshipped except Allah.’" (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 601)

It is reported on the authority of Abu Zubair that he heard from Jabir b. 'Abdullah, who was asked about the arrival (of people on the Day of Resurrection). He said. We would come on the Day of Resurrection like this, like this, and see, carefully, that which concerns "elevated people". He (the narrator) said: Then the people would be summoned along with their idols whom they worshipped, one after another. Then our Lord would come to us and say: Whom are you waiting for? They would say: We are waiting for our Lord. He would say: I am your Lord. They would say: (We are not sure) till we gaze at Thee, and He would manifest Himself to them smilingly, and would go along with them and they would follow Him; and every person, whether a hypocrite or a believer, would be endowed with a light, and there would be spikes and hooks on the bridge of the Hell, which would catch hold of those whom Allah willed. Then the light of the hypocrites would be extinguished, and the believers would secure salvation. and the first group to achieve it would comprise seventy thousand men who would have the brightness of full moon on their faces, and they would not be called to account. Then the people immediately following them would have their faces as the brightest stars in the heaven. This is how (the groups would follow one after another). Then the stage of intercession would come, and they (who are permitted to intercede) would intercede, till he who had declared: "There is no god but Allah" and had in his heart virtue of the weight of a barley grain would come out of the Fire. They would be then brought in the courtyard of Paradise and the inhabitants of Paradise would begin to sprinkle water over them till they would sprout like the sprouting of a thing in flood water, and their burns would disappear. They would ask their Lord till they would be granted (the bounties) of the world and with it ten more besides it. (Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0367)

'Abdullah b. 'Abbas reported that his son died in Qudaid or 'Usfan. He said to Kuraib to see as to how many people had gathered there for his (funeral). He (Kuraib) said: So I went out and I informed him about the people who had gathered there. He (Ibn 'Abbas) said: Do you think they are forty? He (Kuraib) said: Yes. Ibn 'Abbas then said to them: Bring him (the dead body) out for I have heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: If any Muslim dies and forty men who associate nothing with Allah stand over his prayer (they offer prayer over him), Allah will accept them as intercessors for him. (Sahih Muslim, Book 004, Number 2072)

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: I shall be pre-eminent amongst the descendants of Adam on the Day of Resurrection and I will be the first intercessor and the first whose intercession will be accepted (by Allah). (Sahih Muslim, Book 030, Number 5655)

Edited September 16, 2011 by Mushu

[Awaiting_for_the12th]

^^ lol bro you are wasting your time, he will just keep jumping from topic to topic which have been refuted countless times. Impressed by your patience though

[Guest Mushu]

Lol, I just copied and pasted it from somewhere ;)

Should keep him occupied for a while :lol:

[theTRUEislam]

tbh cant be bothered read that,......but your trying tell me the person whom or whatever youcall upon can hear everyone????????/

^^ lol bro you are wasting your time, he will just keep jumping from topic to topic which have been refuted countless times. Impressed by your patience though

who jumping topic to topic ???

[Guest Mushu]

tbh cant be bothered read that,......but your trying tell me the person whom or whatever youcall upon can hear everyone????????/

Lol, why post if you can't be bothered to read evidence from your own books?

[theTRUEislam]

but your trying tell me the person whom or whatever youcall upon can hear everyone????????/

answer that plz

Edited September 16, 2011 by theTRUEislam

[Guest Mushu]

but your trying tell me the person whom or whatever youcall upon can hear everyone????????/

answer that plz

We call on the Prophet (SAWAWS) and his family to make dua to Allah on our behalf. Yes, they can hear everyone.

[theTRUEislam]

So are they like Allaah whom is all hearing??

Edited September 16, 2011 by theTRUEislam

[Guest Mushu]

So are they like Allaah whom is all hearing??

No, they hear all that speak to them. For example, if I say "theTRUEislam, I really need your help", you would hear me.

[theTRUEislam]

yes i would, but if 1 million people or more did i wouldnt,,,,,, just 1 million or more people call upon them at the same time, they would hear all of them clearly ? because only Allaah is able of that

Edited September 16, 2011 by theTRUEislam

[Haydar Husayn]

We call on the Prophet (SAWAWS) and his family to make dua to Allah on our behalf. Yes, they can hear everyone.

I don't think any of the hadiths you posted proved that they can hear everyone from anywhere on earth. Personally I am of the opinion that they don't (or if they do, there isn't much proof for that position), and the only time they hear us is when we are near their graves, unless Allah (swt) makes some exception.

theTRUEislam, instead of getting sidetracked on these intercession debates that have been done to death on this site, do you have any other questions of substance?

[theTRUEislam]

^^ lol bro you are wasting your time, he will just keep jumping from topic to topic which have been refuted countless times. Impressed by your patience though

If do ask another question i'll be acused of "jump topic to topic"

So lets stick to this topic.

anyway why would anyone call upon anyone apart from Allaah whom is all hearing?

thinking about it why call upon someone to call upon Allaah, when you call upon Allaah directly ..

This what cross worshipper and pagans do

Edited September 16, 2011 by theTRUEislam

[Righteous]

TRUEislam - Can you see?

Allah is Baseer so if you claim to see you are committing shirk?

You need to understand the difference between being God Almighty or having some abilities granted by Him.

So let me put it simply as follows:

If you are here to teach and to learn then you need some level of intellectual honesty to make the discussion pertinent and interesting.

If you are here to condemn then .....well then you won't merit any respect or proper response

Edited September 16, 2011 by Righteous

[Rasul]

but your trying tell me the person whom or whatever youcall upon can hear everyone????????/

answer that plz

[Yusufali 9:94] ... It is your actions that Allah and His Messenger will observe: in the end will ye be brought back to Him Who knoweth what is hidden and what is open: then will He show you the truth of all that ye did."

...O Allah's Apostle! You are addressing dead people.' Allah's Apostle replied, 'You do not hear what I am saying, better than they.' "

Sunni references:

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 360

[theTRUEislam]

[Yusufali 9:94] ... It is your actions that Allah and His Messenger will observe: in the end will ye be brought back to Him Who knoweth what is hidden and what is open: then will He show you the truth of all that ye did."

...O Allah's Apostle! You are addressing dead people.' Allah's Apostle replied, 'You do not hear what I am saying, better than they.' "

Sunni references:

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 360

tell me how that proves he (peace be upon him) is able to hear everyone?

[a believer]

(bismillah)

Salaam,

tell me how that proves he (peace be upon him) is able to hear everyone?

LOL

[Rasul]

tell me how that proves he (peace be upon him) is able to hear everyone?

If you don't understand I can't help you but maybe this helps you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPyz4sVHYVE&feature=channel_video_title

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoxLJB5Gowk&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Uk66ifXzqI&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPWEOpBZMHY&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzGH2wUze6Y&feature=relmfu

[JimJam]

tbh cant be bothered read that,......but your trying tell me the person whom or whatever youcall upon can hear everyone????????/

You remember that hadith where our prophet (pbuh) started talking to the corpses of the Pagans after the battle of Badr was over. Umar said they are dead they cant hear you. Our prophet (pbuh) said they can hear me.

Besides when our Imams taught us that in the alam e barzakh all men believers and unbelievers will be able to see their loved ones on earth after death. So do you think we are going to hold the belief that the Imams and Prophets are unaware after death

Abu 'Abdillah (a.s.) said: "Verily, the believer visits his family and he sees what he likes; and what he dislikes is hidden from him. And verily the unbeliever visits his family and he sees what he dislikes; and what he likes is hidden from him." And he said: "There are some of them who visit (their families) every Friday; and there are others who visit according to their deeds." (al-Kafi)

http://www.shiasourc...pular-discourse

Like Bulleh Shah said;

o Bulleh

we will not die

another age remains

another age remains

Nahj al Balagha Sermon 235

Spoken when Amir al-mu'minin was busy in the funeral ablution (ghusl) of the Holy Prophet and shrouding him

May my father and my mother shed their lives for you. O' Messenger of Allah! With your death the process of prophethood, revelation and heavenly messages has stopped, which had not stopped at the death of others (prophets). Your position with us (members of your family) is so special that your grief has become a source of consolation (to us) as against the grief of all others; your grief is also common so that all Muslims share it equally. If you had not ordered endurance and prevented us from bewailing, we would have produced a store of tears and even then the pain would not have subsided, and this grief would not have ended, and they would have been too little of our grief for you. But this (death) is a matter that cannot be reversed nor is it possible to repulse it. May my father and my mother die for you; do remember us with Allah and take care of us.

http://www.al-islam.org/nahj/default.asp?url=235.htm

Edited September 16, 2011 by JimJam

[theTRUEislam]

Nor are (alike) the living (believers) and the dead (disbelievers). Verily, Allâh makes whom He will hear, but you cannot make hear those who are in graves. (Fatir 35:22)

Verily, you cannot make the dead to hear (i.e. benefit them and similarly the disbelievers), nor can you make the deaf to hear the call, when they flee, turning their backs. (An-Naml 27:80)

So verily, you (O Muhammad SAW) cannot make the dead to hear (i.e. the disbelievers, etc.), nor can you make the deaf to hear the call, when they show their backs, turning away. (Ar-Rum 30:52)

[El Cid]

^I am not gonna waste my time on you, Your obviously an agent from www.sunniforum.com and www.sunnichat.com. People who want to see the end of ShiaChat =P Go take your "True Islam" there, I am sure there will be others who will join you ;) You can even complain about us Shi'as there with people supporting you :D So it's a win win for you.

[Righteous]

Nor are (alike) the living (believers) and the dead (disbelievers). Verily, Allâh makes whom He will hear, but you cannot make hear those who are in graves. (Fatir 35:22)

Verily, you cannot make the dead to hear (i.e. benefit them and similarly the disbelievers), nor can you make the deaf to hear the call, when they flee, turning their backs. (An-Naml 27:80)

So verily, you (O Muhammad SAW) cannot make the dead to hear (i.e. the disbelievers, etc.), nor can you make the deaf to hear the call, when they show their backs, turning away. (Ar-Rum 30:52)

If you read what you have posted then you will see that this is in the context of believers and disbelievers. And the disbelievers are like dead and they would not respond to teh call, just like your sheikhan who ran away from battle while the Prophet (pbuh) was calling them and how you are beyond listening to the call of truth.