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In the Name of God بسم الله

Ya Ali Madad

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Hmmm.

Tbh, im of the opinion that what alot of Shia do is wrong. For example, in the adhan, people say "Muhammadun rasool Allah" and then "aliun walli Allah". Some people go extra and say "ashhadu an alliyun, wa imam al mutaqeen, walli Allah" etc, etc, and add loaaaaads. I think its wrong that people glorify Imam Ali (as) so much, and not the Prophet (as). See what I mean?

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The Sent Ones of God are our connection to him. They are links in chain between God and his other creations. I put it this way: you, as a common person, don't barge into the King's Chamber and issue your demands, you go to a representative sent by him and put in your request. If the King gives you permission to speak with him directly, then you do so, otherwise, you speak directly to the representatives and they speak directly to him for you.

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23
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The Sent Ones of God are our connection to him. They are links in chain between God and his other creations. I put it this way: you, as a common person, don't barge into the King's Chamber and issue your demands, you go to a representative sent by him and put in your request. If the King gives you permission to speak with him directly, then you do so, otherwise, you speak directly to the representatives and they speak directly to him for you.

Yeahhh, true, but, why Imam Ali (as) so much? Why not the Prophet (SAWAS) for example?

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Yeahhh, true, but, why Imam Ali (as) so much? Why not the Prophet (SAWAS) for example?

And to Allah belongs the east and the west. So wherever you [might] turn, there is the Face of Allah . Indeed, Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing. -- Surah 2:115

Who is the Face of Allah? Isn't it Ali (as)?

However, I wholeheartedly agree that some Shia do seem to pay more attention to Ali than Muhammad (pbuh), but I don't necessarily think that's doing anything wrong unless you say Ali is more important than Muhammad. However, some minority of Shia do seem to hold this view. But as "Shia of Ali," whether Ali is more important than Muhammad (pbuh) in your view or not, our very identity is centered around the veneration of Ali (as).

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23
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I'm speaking of what is used in the verse I mentioned which is "wajhu Allah"

No I meant that maybe the verse isn't connected to Imam Ali (as). Yes, the verse is 'waju Allah' but Imam Ali (as) is titled 'wajih Allah'. See what I mean? :unsure:

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No I meant that maybe the verse isn't connected to Imam Ali (as). Yes, the verse is 'waju Allah' but Imam Ali (as) is titled 'wajih Allah'. See what I mean? :unsure:

Yes, I do, but most of the hadith I've seen where Ali is called "Face of Allah" reference the verse in question. Basically, those hadith say that verse is referring directly to Ali himself. I have no doubt that some hadith say "wajih Allah" and certainly Ali is one who is faced towards Allah, but there are hadith that say he is "wajhu Allah" as well, citing the verse above. Which would mean that all Quranic verses referring to the "Face of Allah" are referring to Ali too.

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23
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what does that mean? why would Imam Ali be the face of Allah.

What does your physical face do? It identifies you out of a crowd of people doesn't it? In the same manner, Ali (as) is the means by which we identify Allah out of all else that exists. But your face is not you, your pure identity itself, rather your soul is. Ali is the Face of God because like a physical face, all creation identifies Allah out of all else through looking upon him, but Ali is no more God than your physical face is your immaterial spirit. All creation comes to identify Allah through Ali (as)

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23
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According to someone on here who seemed to know what he was talking about, Sufis on the subcontinent started saying Ya Muhammad Madad, and then after that Shias started saying Ya Ali Madad. It makes some sense to me, and wouldn't at all surprise me if it was true.

Personally, I don't have any reason to believe Imam Ali (as), or anyone else for that matter, has the ability to hear anyone unless the person is near his grave, so I think saying Ya Ali Madad is in all likelyhood completely useless. Not to mention that such practices are very questionable to me, as they have the appearance of shirk. People can say they have such-and-such intention, but Islam generally seems to me to be a religion that always tries to keep people far away from sin, not leaving them in a situation where the only thing seperating their words from being shirk is an intention (which quite frankly a lot of Shias seems a bit hazy on anyway).

I honestly don't understand why people just don't call on Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, while for help in the names of Muhammad (pbuh) and the ahlulbayt (as). Look at the duas in al-Sahifa al-Sajjadiyya, they all have that form.

On the other hand, if a person makes ziyarat to the graves of the masumeen, then he can ask the masoom to ask Allah to help/forgive him or her, since there is at least proof in the hadiths that supplications can be heard from near graves.

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In addtion to the points on saying masoomen are the face of Allah or the eye of Allah we should also think of how these phrases are used when speaking Arabic, like when someone wants to say that someone else is ddear to them they can call them 3aiynee - my eye or Roohi- my soul or hayati- my life these are words of endearment so please understand that its never taken in the literal sense

Allah bless

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According to someone on here who seemed to know what he was talking about, Sufis on the subcontinent started saying Ya Muhammad Madad, and then after that Shias started saying Ya Ali Madad. It makes some sense to me, and wouldn't at all surprise me if it was true.

Personally, I don't have any reason to believe Imam Ali (as), or anyone else for that matter, has the ability to hear anyone unless the person is near his grave, so I think saying Ya Ali Madad is in all likelyhood completely useless. Not to mention that such practices are very questionable to me, as they have the appearance of shirk. People can say they have such-and-such intention, but Islam generally seems to me to be a religion that always tries to keep people far away from sin, not leaving them in a situation where the only thing seperating their words from being shirk is an intention (which quite frankly a lot of Shias seems a bit hazy on anyway).

I honestly don't understand why people just don't call on Allah سبحانه وتعالى, while for help in the names of Muhammad (pbuh) and the ahlulbayt (as). Look at the duas in al-Sahifa al-Sajjadiyya, they all have that form.

On the other hand, if a person makes ziyarat to the graves of the masumeen, then he can ask the masoom to ask Allah to help/forgive him or her, since there is at least proof in the hadiths that supplications can be heard from near graves.

Brother, often when I say a prayer to a saint or prophet, I more often than not begin with something like: May you hear my prayer or May my guardian angel carry this prayer to you.

Since I know my guardian angel hears my words I know he can relate my prayer to whomever it is I wish to be heard by if they are not present to hear me. I think sometimes when one is not careful in his prayers to Allah, he fancies that he has an equal rank to Sent Ones. My Christian older brother doesn't believe in the intercession of saints because he believes the blood of Jesus has made him equal to them (that is in hierarchical rank). I refuse to say I am Muhammad's equal in heavenly rank. I also refuse to speak to God asking for things that he has bestowed the responsibility of giving those thing onto Sent Ones already, thus ignoring his edicts and knowledge, as well as treating him like some magic prize box. I'm reminded of the "God joke" in the movie the Pursuit of Happyness.

I like to reserve my prayers to Allah for thanksgiving rather than requests that God has already given me the means to fulfill.

Without a doubt, the graves are the focal point of their presence, but they are not quite the extent of their presence in the world. I have faith that someone or something will catch my prayers, God willing, and relate them to Ahlul Bayt or to Maryam (as) or to Jesus (pbuh) or to whomever's aid I am in need of.

In addtion to the points on saying masoomen are the face of Allah or the eye of Allah we should also think of how these phrases are used when speaking Arabic, like when someone wants to say that someone else is ddear to them they can call them 3aiynee - my eye or Roohi- my soul or hayati- my life these are words of endearment so please understand that its never taken in the literal sense

Allah bless

Sister, understand that I do not interpret them in a literal sense, I was only saying that Ali is the Face, but did not mean this in the sense of incarnation. Rather that because Allah is beyond time and space and matter, he uses Ali as a "face," In all respects Ali is a face, but not in the same way that our physical face is a face. It is a face in the esoteric and mystical understanding of what a face is. ;)

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23
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Brother, often when I say a prayer to a saint or prophet, I more often than not begin with something like: May you hear my prayer or May my guardian angel carry this prayer to you.

Since I know my guardian angel hears my words I know he can relate my prayer to whomever it is I wish to be heard by if they are not present to hear me. I think sometimes when one is not careful in his prayers to Allah, he fancies that he has an equal rank to Sent Ones. My Christian older brother doesn't believe in the intercession of saints because he believes the blood of Jesus has made him equal to them (that is in hierarchical rank). I refuse to say I am Muhammad's equal in heavenly rank. I also refuse to speak to God asking for things that he has bestowed the responsibility of giving those thing onto Sent Ones already, thus ignoring his edicts and knowledge, as well as treating him like some magic prize box. I'm reminded of the "God joke" in the movie the Pursuit of Happyness.

I like to reserve my prayers to Allah for thanksgiving rather than requests that God has already given me the means to fulfill.

Without a doubt, the graves are the focal point of their presence, but they are not quite the extent of their presence in the world. I have faith that someone or something will catch my prayers, God willing, and relate them to Ahlul Bayt or to Maryam (as) or to Jesus (pbuh) or to whomever's aid I am in need of.

Sister, understand that I do not interpret them in a literal sense, I was only saying that Ali is the Face, but did not mean this in the sense of incarnation. Rather that because Allah is beyond time and space and matter, he uses Ali as a "face," In all respects Ali is a face, but not in the same way that our physical face is a face. It is a face in the esoteric and mystical understanding of what a face is. ;)

Yes I know akhi, I was making an addition to what you said for the people who had questions

Allah bless

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