The Actual Relatonship Among The 4 Caliphs (ra)

[tefi92]

Dear People,

Asslam o Alaykum,

A lot has been discussed and debated about the differences Hz Abu Bakr (ra), Hz Omar (ra), Hz Osman (ra) and Hz Ali (ra) had. A lot of references have been given about the weaknesses of the caliphs and Imams and others closed to the Prophet Muhemmed SAW.

Lets change our perspective today. Lets talk about the commonalities, love and respect these individuals, as Sahaba e Karam, shared among each other. Lets give references to the common objectives they had and love they demonstrated for each other. Lets for once and for the sake of Rasool SAW admit that they were ALL close and beloved disciples of Prophet SAW and were not only selected and trained by the Prophet but also representatives of the divine message.

Pointing a finger on anyone of them would be pointing finger on the selection of Prophet (SAW) and directly questioning the Divine Wisdom.

People !!! we ALL have weaknesses in our personalities don’t we?. We all are humans first. But whenever we offer ourselves for a job interview or for a wedding proposal, we ONLY and ALWAYS depict what is the best we have. Whenever we introduce our loved ones, we show the world his / her strengths and not the weaknesses or handicaps he/ she carries. We have to own every personality trait we possess, and improve our strengths to raise our standards.

I was watching an English movie the other day and a few dialogues just struck to my mind and i was so amazed that the TRUE MESAAGE of Islam can be endorsed from anyones tongue. The sources change....but the ORIGIN is One.

Its when a senior wizard Dumbledore said to harry once:

"Harry we see what we want to see......."

And :

"Its not our abilities that determine what we are, its our Choices that define US"

And:

"Don’t look at the differences we have, look towards the commonalities we share"

Dear shia friends....i know majority shia brothers and sisters do not think this way but i am addressing the minority in this regard......we have a lot of differences but we do have a lot in common as well. Why have we gone in Hatre so far that we have lost the true meaning of LOVE. Love combines, Love makes ONE...... Hatre divides, CURSE rejects.

The teachings of Rasool SAW was that He came down and gave what HE HAD and Ignored what people had. He just brought the best out of everyone. Thats the basic rule. Thats the basic theme and essence of our religion our deen and LOVE.

Once the Prophet SAW asked the 4 of them:

"What will you do if i give you this black shawl of mine (KAMLI)?"

Hz Abu Bakr (ra) said: "I will wear it and lead the humanity to the TRUTH (HAQ)"

Hz Omar (ra) said: "I will wear it and spread Islam"

Hz Omar (ra) said: "I will wear it and apply justice with its help"

HZ Ali Said: "I will hide the Ummahs weaknesses underneath this"

Rasool Allah SAW awarded the shawl to Hz Ali RA.

Friends, what beautiful example. We have to raise our standards. We have to praise what is good. Dont have to repent and curse everything one has. Specially, when it comes to the Sahaba e Karam. Our approach is dividing us. the ways have parted. WE ARE ONE means we have to accept each other as our own reflection. Improving others will eventually improve our own image. WE ARE HIS OWN IMAGE. The world is a mirror. We only see our own image.... WE ONLY SEE WHAT WE WANT TO SEE.

Wassalam

A True Muslim

Edited September 15, 2011 by tefi92

[Barabika]

(bismillah)

Yes, we only see what we want to see. And exactly, i think we muslims should put aside our differences and instead unite. I think both sides (shia and sunni) are to blame because individuals of both sides dont tolerate each other and this constantly causes tension and tension causes weakness amongst the muslims.

As one, we should all fight "together" against the enemies of islam instead of fighting "each other". But further more, i blame the arab dictator regimes for this. As i see it, arabs themselves also believe in the above (unless they're wahabbi).

Wasalam.

Edited September 15, 2011 by hossein

[Aly ReZa]

Well I will like to say that we shia peoples have something called tabbarra in the furoo e deen (u might be aware of this)

Your so called three caliphs is not better than ali a.s

Ok as u posted so nicely I will like to ask u 1 thing what do u think about the death incedent of bibi fatima zehra s.a

What will u like to say about ghadeer kum

What do u think who was greatest in all of the four.

The thing is that I don't know about the

other countries but here in india we have a lot of enemies.

Sunnis are the biggest enemy of shias.

They don't like that we do matam.

They hate us.

Even here I can show u hindu people (kafirs)

Support us they do matam

They will make a sabeel (water tanks)

In aashura.

That's the problem that we don't interfere in ur tradition and things why u open ur bloody mouth and try spread violence.

In short as of my personal opinion we can never have unity.

For further thing just google shia sunni arguements in mumbai and india.

[tefi92]

Dear Aly

You said "Your so called three caliphs is not better than ali a.s"

Sigh.....Please read the topic i posted AGAIN....

You stated "What do u think who was greatest in all of the four"

My whole idea is far beyond this comparison

You said "Sunnis are the biggest enemy of shias"

Dear..... Enemy lies within. We ourselves are to blame for. No one else. We are living in the era of 1400 years ago. We are still locked in our comparative studies and fault finding ideas. We are trying to judge those who had better authority than us. To judge someone, you have to know him first. We are not seeing what the truth was, we are seeing what we WANT to see.

You said "They don't like that we do matam. They hate us."

So what. If you think you are right forgive them. Try to convince them through your deeds. Through the teachings of your beloved. Would Hz Ali cursed or even condemned these individuals? He reverted to do Tabarra..... he did it for the good of muslim unity and to prevent from 'SHAR'. My dear friend you should also avoid SHAR and follow the grace of your beloved.

You said "That's the problem that we don't interfere in ur tradition and things why u open ur bloody mouth and try spread violence."

Sir, I have tried to be nice with you so you better keep your cool as well. If someone is being nasty and spreading violence, thats his own deed....atleast you should keep the Sunnah of Hz Ali RA. And above all these traditions shall be based on faith and not the other way around.

You said "In short as of my personal opinion we can never have unity"

Welll.... Its your personal view but i still respect that. Atleast you are not hypocrite and say whatever you feel. In short, its an honest comment. If we have to have UNITY, we will have to be less personal and more general. :)

Hossein......I love the saying of Imam Hz Ali under your signature...

Edited September 15, 2011 by tefi92

[Saintly_Jinn23]

tefi92, I must say that I do not hold the same opinion of the first three caliphs as some other Shia, however I resent your calling them "Hazrat" as this implies some kind of sainthood. To me, the first three caliphs were not that bad, however they were far from the saintly figures the Sunni traditions portray them as. The way I see it, they were just Abu Bakr, Omar, and Uthman. Nothing more, nothing less. Whereas some Shia portray them as murderous and ravenous kufr, I don't see them in this light.

BUT, I will never say, as long as I live, that they were equal in spiritual rank to Hazrat Ali (as). I will say that some actions are falsely attributed to them out of spite towards Sunnis, though. But with Ali (as), I feel he out of all the first four caliphs is the only one who bears any sort of unique spiritual purpose. The other three were just normal laymen of the faith like you and me, but Ali was created before Prophet Adam (pbuh), Ali is the Face of God, and it is only through Ali that any human being is able to identify and realize the presence of his Creator, the Almighty God. Before I was even born, before you were born, we were created in the presence of Ali. Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman were created in the presence of Ali. Sunnis don't believe or understand this, to them Ali is just a normal man, equal to the first three caliph. I'm Shia of Ali not because I think Ali deserved to be adorned in the palace of a king with grapes and concubines, like an earthly king, and because he didn't get that I'm angry. I'm Shia of Ali because everywhere I turn there is the Face of God and I strive to glorify God by adoring that Face of His and becoming a reflection myself of his Face, to become a mirror that displays the beauty that is Ali (pbuh). I do not do this nor can I do this nor does it make sense for me to do this with the other 3.

To me, those who are truly guilty of evil against Ali are Aisha, Muawiyah, and Yazeed for his crimes against Ali's son with Yazeed of course being the worse. I pray for mercy upon Aisha, resent Muawiyah, and curse Yazeed.

Edited September 15, 2011 by Saintly_Jinn23

[Aly ReZa]

tefi92, I must say that I do not hold the same opinion of the first three caliphs as some other Shia, however I resent your calling them "Hazrat" as this implies some kind of sainthood. To me, the first three caliphs were not that bad, however they were far from the saintly figures the Sunni traditions portray them as. The way I see it, they were just Abu Bakr, Omar, and Uthman. Nothing more, nothing less. Whereas some Shia portray them as murderous and ravenous kufr, I don't see them in this light.

BUT, I will never say, as long as I live, that they were equal in spiritual rank to Hazrat Ali (as). I will say that some actions are falsely attributed to them out of spite towards Sunnis, though. But with Ali (as), I feel he out of all the first four caliphs is the only one who bears any sort of unique spiritual purpose. The other three were just normal laymen of the faith like you and me, but Ali was created before Prophet Adam (pbuh), Ali is the Face of God, and it is only through Ali that any human being is able to identify and realize the presence of his Creator, the Almighty God. Before I was even born, before you were born, we were created in the presence of Ali. Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman were created in the presence of Ali. Sunnis don't believe or understand this, to them Ali is just a normal man, equal to the first three caliph. I'm Shia of Ali not because I think Ali deserved to be adorned in the palace of a king with grapes and concubines, like an earthly king, and because he didn't get that I'm angry. I'm Shia of Ali because everywhere I turn there is the Face of God and I strive to glorify God by adoring that Face of His and becoming a reflection myself of his Face, to become a mirror that displays the beauty that is Ali (pbuh). I do not do this nor can I do this nor does it make sense for me to do this with the other 3.

To me, those who are truly guilty of evil against Ali are Aisha, Muawiyah, and Yazeed for his crimes against Ali's son with Yazeed of course being the worse. I pray for mercy upon Aisha, resent Muawiyah, and curse Yazeed.

Great post buddy

Well done this are the followers and lovers of imam ali a.s

They killed the wife of ali a.s

They took away the khilafa from ali a.s they misguided the people

They did many shameful acts and you are saying To me, the first three caliphs were not that bad,

they were just Abu Bakr, Omar, and Uthman. Nothing more, nothing less.

Why we curse 3 of them why we ask Allah s.w.t to remove his mercy from them

You posted that

Whereas some Shia portray them as murderous and ravenous kufr, I don't see them in this light.

So what do you think the shia thinks that they are murderers and kufrs

Are they fool and u are wise.

What you will like to say about this ?

Are you not aware of tabbara

If you then why you posted that To me, the first three caliphs were not that bad,

they were just Abu Bakr, Omar, and Uthman. Nothing more, nothing less.

May Allah s.w.t guide us all

[Saintly_Jinn23]

The "Caliphate" of Abu Bakr and the other two means nothing. So Ali was usurped of his God given right by three humans? So Allah failed to give Ali what was rightfully his. No, you miss the whole point. Ali is not Muhammad's successor in such a manner.

Ali (as) is far beyond this world and it's trappings. For a Shia to look at what Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman were given and say "Ali's rightfully deserved that, and they stole it," is an insult not to them but to Ali. They see that Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman had riches, fine robes, and the mansions of a caliph, of an earthly king, and say that those were the proper gifts for Ali? I say Ali's poverty was the greatest gift God could bestow upon Ali and I also say that whether or not Ali was made the first caliph or not, or a caliph ever, he is still Imam, which is a much higher position. An Imam in poverty on earth is always and forever will be of a higher rank than a caliph or king in the luxury of wealth on earth. God ordained Ali to be Imam over the Ummah, which he was regardless of whether he was a caliph or not. If Ali was an Imam regardless, and the Imam in poverty is greater than the king/caliph living in worldly riches, and Ali's destiny was to be Imam over the Ummah, then what did Abu Bakr, Umar, or Uthman take away from him? What did they usurp from him? Nothing he would ever need. Nothing that would increase his glory. And besides, even the Shia hadith record Abu Bakr calling for Imam Ali's advice. The one whom the caliph must call on for advice is always the superior one, whether the caliph knows it or not. Why should I care whether he was ever made a caliph at all? It changes nothing.

With the stories of the first caliphs being tyrants, I do not necessarily believe this because I have not seen any evidence to suggest this was so except a few hadith that I can't confirm. Also, it doesn't make sense to me that so soon after the Prophet, so many of the Ummah would turn against Ali that the caliphs could kill Fatima and Mohsen without all out civil war. When Aisha stood against Ali, people rallied behind Ali in masses, but when Fatima was "murdered," nobody came and stood with Ali, no retaliation whatsoever? Ali was willing to go to war, albeit reluctantly with Aisha, but not against Abu Bakr and Umar for the murder of his wife. And I'm expected to believe that? Sorry, I call shenanigans.

Edited September 15, 2011 by Saintly_Jinn23

[aladdin]

Pointing a finger on anyone of them would be pointing finger on the selection of Prophet (SAW) and directly questioning the Divine Wisdom.

See Allah Himself is pointing His Finger on two of them:

O Prophet! Why holdest thou to be forbidden that which Allah has made lawful to thee? Thou seekest to please thy consorts. But Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. Allah has already ordained for you, (O men), the dissolution of your oaths (in some cases): and Allah is your Protector, and He is Full of Knowledge and Wisdom.

When the Prophet disclosed a matter in confidence to one of his consorts, and she then divulged it (to another), and Allah made it known to him, he confirmed part thereof and repudiated a part. Then when he told her thereof, she said, "Who told thee this? "He said, "He told me Who knows and is well-acquainted (with all things)."

If you two turn in repentance to Him, your hearts are indeed so inclined; But if you back up each other against him, truly Allah is his Protector, and Gabriel, and (every) righteous one among those who believe,- and furthermore, the angels - will back (him) up. It may be, if he divorced you (all), that Allah will give him in exchange consorts better than you,- who submit (their wills), who believe, who are devout, who turn to Allah in repentance, who worship (in humility), who travel (for Faith) and fast,- previously married or virgins.

O' you who believe! save yourselves and your families from a Fire whose fuel is Men and Stones, over which are (appointed) angels stern (and) severe, who flinch not (from executing) the Commands they receive from Allah, but do (precisely) what they are commanded. (They will say), "O' you Unbelievers! Make no excuses this Day! You are being but requited for all that ye did!"

O' you who believe! Turn to Allah with sincere repentance: In the hope that your Lord will remove from you your ills and admit you to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow,- the Day that Allah will not permit to be humiliated the Prophet and those who believe with him. Their Light will run forward before them and by their right hands, while they say, "Our Lord! Perfect our Light for us, and grant us Forgiveness: for Thou hast power over all things."

O Prophet! Strive hard against the Unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed). Allah sets forth, for an example to the Unbelievers, the wife of Noah and the wife of Lut: they were (respectively) under two of our righteous servants, but they were false to their (husbands), and they profited nothing before Allah on their account, but were told: "Enter you the Fire along with (others) that enter!"

And Allah sets forth, as an example to those who believe the wife of Pharaoh: Behold she said: "O my Lord! Build for me, in nearness to Thee, a mansion in the Garden, and save me from Pharaoh and his doings, and save me from those that do wrong"; And Mary the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (her body) of Our spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout (servants).

Al-Qur'an, 066.001-012 (At-Tahrim [banning, Prohibition])

[Saintly_Jinn23]

We can't say that everyone of the companions was infallible, that much is certain. But the extent that some Shia go to portray the first three caliphs in a negative light is too hard for me to swallow. Though I do not call them "Hazrat," or "Sayyid," by any means, I do not see them as munafiq or kufr. They just aren't important to me.

Edited September 15, 2011 by Saintly_Jinn23

[JimJam]

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 82, Number 817:

...In the meantime, 'Umar sat on the pulpit and when the callmakers for the prayer had finished their call, 'Umar stood up, and having glorified and praised Allah as He deserved, he said, "Now then, I am going to tell you something which (Allah) has written for me to say. I do not know; perhaps it portends my death, so whoever understands and remembers it, must narrate it to the others wherever his mount takes him, but if somebody is afraid that he does not understand it, then it is unlawful for him to tell lies about me. Allah sent Muhammad with the Truth and revealed the Holy Book to him, and among what Allah revealed, was the Verse of the Rajam (the stoning of married person (male & female) who commits illegal sexual intercourse, and we did recite this Verse and understood and memorized it. Allah's Apostle did carry out the punishment of stoning and so did we after him.

I am afraid that after a long time has passed, somebody will say, 'By Allah, we do not find the Verse of the Rajam in Allah's Book,' and thus they will go astray by leaving an obligation which Allah has revealed. And the punishment of the Rajam is to be inflicted to any married person (male & female), who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if the required evidence is available or there is conception or confession. And then we used to recite among the Verses in Allah's Book: 'O people! Do not claim to be the offspring of other than your fathers, as it is disbelief (unthankfulness) on your part that you claim to be the offspring of other than your real father.' Then Allah's Apostle said, 'Do not praise me excessively as Jesus, son of Marry was praised, but call me Allah's Slave and His Apostles.' (O people!) I have been informed that a speaker amongst you says, 'By Allah, if 'Umar should die, I will give the pledge of allegiance to such-and-such person.' One should not deceive oneself by saying that the pledge of allegiance given to Abu Bakr was given suddenly and it was successful. No doubt, it was like that, but Allah saved (the people) from its evil, and there is none among you who has the qualities of Abu Bakr. Remember that whoever gives the pledge of allegiance to anybody among you without consulting the other Muslims, neither that person, nor the person to whom the pledge of allegiance was given, are to be supported, lest they both should be killed.

And no doubt after the death of the Prophet we were informed that the Ansar disagreed with us and gathered in the shed of Bani Sa'da. 'Ali and Zubair and whoever was with them, opposed us, while the emigrants gathered with Abu Bakr. I said to Abu Bakr, 'Let's go to these Ansari brothers of ours.' So we set out seeking them, and when we approached them, two pious men of theirs met us and informed us of the final decision of the Ansar, and said, 'O group of Muhajirin (emigrants) ! Where are you going?' We replied, 'We are going to these Ansari brothers of ours.' They said to us, 'You shouldn't go near them. Carry out whatever we have already decided.' I said, 'By Allah, we will go to them.' And so we proceeded until we reached them at the shed of Bani Sa'da. Behold! There was a man sitting amongst them and wrapped in something. I asked, 'Who is that man?' They said, 'He is Sa'd bin 'Ubada.' I asked, 'What is wrong with him?' They said, 'He is sick.' After we sat for a while, the Ansar's speaker said, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and praising Allah as He deserved, he added, 'To proceed, we are Allah's Ansar (helpers) and the majority of the Muslim army, while you, the emigrants, are a small group and some people among you came with the intention of preventing us from practicing this matter (of caliphate) and depriving us of it.'

When the speaker had finished, I intended to speak as I had prepared a speech which I liked and which I wanted to deliver in the presence of Abu Bakr, and I used to avoid provoking him. So, when I wanted to speak, Abu Bakr said, 'Wait a while.' I disliked to make him angry. So Abu Bakr himself gave a speech, and he was wiser and more patient than I. By Allah, he never missed a sentence that I liked in my own prepared speech, but he said the like of it or better than it spontaneously. After a pause he said, 'O Ansar! You deserve all (the qualities that you have attributed to yourselves, but this question (of Caliphate) is only for the Quraish as they are the best of the Arabs as regards descent and home, and I am pleased to suggest that you choose either of these two men, so take the oath of allegiance to either of them as you wish. And then Abu Bakr held my hand and Abu Ubada bin Abdullah's hand who was sitting amongst us. I hated nothing of what he had said except that proposal, for by Allah, I would rather have my neck chopped off as expiator for a sin than become the ruler of a nation, one of whose members is Abu Bakr, unless at the time of my death my own-self suggests something I don't feel at present.'

And then one of the Ansar said, 'I am the pillar on which the camel with a skin disease (eczema) rubs itself to satisfy the itching (i.e., I am a noble), and I am as a high class palm tree! O Quraish. There should be one ruler from us and one from you.'

Then there was a hue and cry among the gathering and their voices rose so that I was afraid there might be great disagreement, so I said, 'O Abu Bakr! Hold your hand out.' He held his hand out and I pledged allegiance to him, and then all the emigrants gave the Pledge of allegiance and so did the Ansar afterwards. And so we became victorious over Sa'd bin Ubada (whom Al-Ansar wanted to make a ruler). One of the Ansar said, 'You have killed Sa'd bin Ubada.' I replied, 'Allah has killed Sa'd bin Ubada.' Umar added, "By Allah, apart from the great tragedy that had happened to us (i.e. the death of the Prophet), there was no greater problem than the allegiance pledged to Abu Bakr because we were afraid that if we left the people, they might give the Pledge of allegiance after us to one of their men, in which case we would have given them our consent for something against our real wish, or would have opposed them and caused great trouble. So if any person gives the Pledge of allegiance to somebody (to become a Caliph) without consulting the other Muslims, then the one he has selected should not be granted allegiance, lest both of them should be killed."

http://www.cmje.org/...ari/082-sbt.php

It seems like the good relationship ended with the death of the prophet (pbuh)

Edited September 15, 2011 by JimJam

[Saintly_Jinn23]

Very interesting find, JimJam. Certainly worth pondering over. Ya Ali (as) madad to the path of truth.

I recall reading a hadith, not sure if Sunni or Shia, in which Umar approaches Ali (as) and congratulates him on being named the Prophet's successor.

[Aly ReZa]

Very interesting find, JimJam. Certainly worth pondering over. Ya Ali (as) madad to the path of truth.

I recall reading a hadith, not sure if Sunni or Shia, in which Umar approaches Ali (as) and congratulates him on being named the Prophet's successor.

It all about ur faith huh the caliphs were not that bad said by the lover of imam ali a.s

[tefi92]

I remember my teacher told me a few ahadith that i wish to share with you. I dont know the exact words or references but its moral is enough to substantiate the crux:

"During Hz Omar's Khilafat, one day son of Hz Omar came to him crying. Upon asking he said "Father..... I was playing with Hussein Ibn e Ali (ra) today (when he was also a kid) when he called me "Ibn ul Ghulam", and he called me with that name more than twice". Hz Omar stood up immediately with blood rushing on his face and took the boys hand asking him to lead where childern were playing. He approached Hussain Ibn e Ali and asked him "Hussain! did you call my son as "Ibn ul Ghulam". Hussain replied "Yes i did". Hz Omar became restless and asked two more times and the answer was the same.

Hz Omar was speechless and with tears in his eyes, he asked little Hussain..... "My child can you give this statement in writing?" and Hussain immediately and confidently answered "Yes. but why do you need it in writing?"

Hz Omar Replied: "Because i will ask in my WASEEYAT that when i die, please keep this written endorsement from Hussain Ibne Ali (ra) that I am the GHULAM of ALI (ra). so that when angels come to question me, i could show it as a proof that i am an honored to be Hz Ali's (ra) Ghulam".

Furthermore, there even a few intances where Hz Omar proclaimed on loud after being advised on a few matters by Imam Ali that "Oh Ali! by advising me you have saved me from destruction".

What say of Hz Abu Bakr (ra) that when during his khilafat he used to go to Hz Ali's house for seeking advice. Once Hz Ayesha states that my father asked a few questions and as long as Hz Ali answered Hz Abu Bakr constantly kept on looking at his face. So she asked afterwards, that father i noticed that you were constantly watching Imam Ali's face, while when he was explaining, he was looking here and there. Hz Abu Bakr replied: " Daughter he was performing his duty, i was performing my prayers". Such respect these Sahaba had for Hz Ali. Such love they had for him.

And now about Imam Ali....... Upon shahadat of Hz Osman didnt he scolded young Hussain ibne Ali for not being vigile enough as he was being kept on duty for guardig the caliphs life?

I also heard that when it was declared that at the time of Hz Abu Bakr's allegience....when Imam Ali heard.... he imediately rushed to take the same.

People...you might disagree with me if you want to. But heart does not need any logic, reference, shahadat. Imam Ali and Hz Abu Bakr both did not ask for EVIDENCE when prophethood was declared. Feron and Namrood asked for many and still did not accept. Faith lies where the heart is.

Here i would try to highlight a point. I also believe that Imam Ali's reality was very very superior. And it might as well be possible that he deserved to be the successor of Muhemmed SAW. But the reason he did tabarra was the fact that he did not opt Khilafat himself. Although there are references that the 1st 3 califs insisted him to take bayt. But he opted not to do so. And to avoid further SHAR Hz Omar took a step to declare that do bayt on Hz Abu Bakar's hands (as then he was most respectful after Imam ALI.

Thats one way of looking at things. There are several other sources which depict the beautiful relation among all these individuals.

What we are doing wrong is that we are comparing Khilafat with Imamat. Imamat is something else friends and you know it better than me. Not many of us know the exact meaning of Imamat. Khilafat is the administrative duty for zahir. Imamat to me has a superior role. but these are two flip sides of a same coin. Establishing Khilafat has its own earthly political requisites. Imamat is .... i cant express. Khilafat, Imamat, Nabuwwat, Risaalat.....these are all different matters. Not only literally but as far as REALITY is concerned these have different constituencies. Adam AS was supposed to be sent to EARTH as a khalifa.... Imams do not have to go to EARTH. How do i explain people you know better than me!!

Its the rank and the role. But individuals given responsibilities HAVE to obey whatever is being given to them. What we are doing is that we are asking a Chief of the Armed forces to come down and command a country's naval fleet. But does it undermines the role of a Naval chief....NO! A president is the supreme commander of forces but the ultimate adinistration is handled solely by the chief of armed forces.

I cant be more blunt than this.

Ali as a person is someone else

As a Khalifa is something else

Being Imam is someone else

same goes for the other three caliphs.

Well anyways this is what i feel and this is what my heart says.

[aladdin]

^^^^^ Bogus hadiths.

[Aly ReZa]

I remember my teacher told me a few ahadith that i wish to share with you. I dont know the exact words or references but its moral is enough to substantiate the crux:

"During Hz Omar's Khilafat, one day son of Hz Omar came to him crying. Upon asking he said "Father..... I was playing with Hussein Ibn e Ali (ra) today (when he was also a kid) when he called me "Ibn ul Ghulam", and he called me with that name more than twice". Hz Omar stood up immediately with blood rushing on his face and took the boys hand asking him to lead where childern were playing. He approached Hussain Ibn e Ali and asked him "Hussain! did you call my son as "Ibn ul Ghulam". Hussain replied "Yes i did". Hz Omar became restless and asked two more times and the answer was the same.

Hz Omar was speechless and with tears in his eyes, he asked little Hussain..... "My child can you give this statement in writing?" and Hussain immediately and confidently answered "Yes. but why do you need it in writing?"

Hz Omar Replied: "Because i will ask in my WASEEYAT that when i die, please keep this written endorsement from Hussain Ibne Ali (ra) that I am the GHULAM of ALI (ra). so that when angels come to question me, i could show it as a proof that i am an honored to be Hz Ali's (ra) Ghulam".

Furthermore, there even a few intances where Hz Omar proclaimed on loud after being advised on a few matters by Imam Ali that "Oh Ali! by advising me you have saved me from destruction".

What say of Hz Abu Bakr (ra) that when during his khilafat he used to go to Hz Ali's house for seeking advice. Once Hz Ayesha states that my father asked a few questions and as long as Hz Ali answered Hz Abu Bakr constantly kept on looking at his face. So she asked afterwards, that father i noticed that you were constantly watching Imam Ali's face, while when he was explaining, he was looking here and there. Hz Abu Bakr replied: " Daughter he was performing his duty, i was performing my prayers". Such respect these Sahaba had for Hz Ali. Such love they had for him.

And now about Imam Ali....... Upon shahadat of Hz Osman didnt he scolded young Hussain ibne Ali for not being vigile enough as he was being kept on duty for guardig the caliphs life?

I also heard that when it was declared that at the time of Hz Abu Bakr's allegience....when Imam Ali heard.... he imediately rushed to take the same.

People...you might disagree with me if you want to. But heart does not need any logic, reference, shahadat. Imam Ali and Hz Abu Bakr both did not ask for EVIDENCE when prophethood was declared. Feron and Namrood asked for many and still did not accept. Faith lies where the heart is.

Here i would try to highlight a point. I also believe that Imam Ali's reality was very very superior. And it might as well be possible that he deserved to be the successor of Muhemmed SAW. But the reason he did tabarra was the fact that he did not opt Khilafat himself. Although there are references that the 1st 3 califs insisted him to take bayt. But he opted not to do so. And to avoid further SHAR Hz Omar took a step to declare that do bayt on Hz Abu Bakar's hands (as then he was most respectful after Imam ALI.

Thats one way of looking at things. There are several other sources which depict the beautiful relation among all these individuals.

What we are doing wrong is that we are comparing Khilafat with Imamat. Imamat is something else friends and you know it better than me. Not many of us know the exact meaning of Imamat. Khilafat is the administrative duty for zahir. Imamat to me has a superior role. but these are two flip sides of a same coin. Establishing Khilafat has its own earthly political requisites. Imamat is .... i cant express. Khilafat, Imamat, Nabuwwat, Risaalat.....these are all different matters. Not only literally but as far as REALITY is concerned these have different constituencies. Adam AS was supposed to be sent to EARTH as a khalifa.... Imams do not have to go to EARTH. How do i explain people you know better than me!!

Its the rank and the role. But individuals given responsibilities HAVE to obey whatever is being given to them. What we are doing is that we are asking a Chief of the Armed forces to come down and command a country's naval fleet. But does it undermines the role of a Naval chief....NO! A president is the supreme commander of forces but the ultimate adinistration is handled solely by the chief of armed forces.

I cant be more blunt than this.

Ali as a person is someone else

As a Khalifa is something else

Being Imam is someone else

same goes for the other three caliphs.

Well anyways this is what i feel and this is what my heart says.

Salam alaikum I appreciate the way you are posting its really nice.

Ok I want to tell u that if u have this much knowledge u knw what's imamat and khilafat

So u must also aware about the battles and fights which imam ali a.s fought to defend islam like khyber ohad siffen khandak.

So where were this three khalifa at that time.

3 of them went to fight with marhab but doesn't happened anything because they were not brave ( I am using this language only because u r the 1 sunni person in my life who is talking so nicely)

So where we're that three caliphs.

Another which I wanted to ask u is that if u accept that hazrat ali a.s were superior then 3 caliphs so don't u think that imam ali a.s deserve the 1 place of caliph.

Now don't tell me that it was imamat and khilafat.

Imamat was there to ali a.s only.

nobody can take that but here I am asking about the khilafat.

[Saintly_Jinn23]

It all about ur faith huh the caliphs were not that bad said by the lover of imam ali a.s

Is my love defined by my hatred for the first three caliphs? I'm too busy loving Ali (as) to really care about them.

Salam alaikum I appreciate the way you are posting its really nice.

Ok I want to tell u that if u have this much knowledge u knw what's imamat and khilafat

So u must also aware about the battles and fights which imam ali a.s fought to defend islam like khyber ohad siffen khandak.

So where were this three khalifa at that time.

3 of them went to fight with marhab but doesn't happened anything because they were not brave ( I am using this language only because u r the 1 sunni person in my life who is talking so nicely)

So where we're that three caliphs.

Another which I wanted to ask u is that if u accept that hazrat ali a.s were superior then 3 caliphs so don't u think that imam ali a.s deserve the 1 place of caliph.

Now don't tell me that it was imamat and khilafat.

Imamat was there to ali a.s only.

nobody can take that but here I am asking about the khilafat.

One who earns the title of Imam is always superior. So superior in fact that to say the Imam must be a caliph to fully realize his position as Imam is an insult.

This is one trouble with some of the Shia, they don't believe Imam Ali's Imamat was realized or complete because he wasn't made Caliphate. That's one trouble I have with the idea that Ali HAD to be the first caliph, it makes his life incomplete. Whereas making caliphate unimportant for Ali to have to take it makes his lifelong mission fulfilled. That's what saddens me about some of my fellow Shia, they treat the Imams as failures because they are so focused on this idea of "Caliphate." Rather should I say "earthly caliphate"

Imamat is "spiritual caliphate," and that's all that matters in the end. Let Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman, have the earthly version, it only passes away like everything else in this world.

Edited September 16, 2011 by Saintly_Jinn23

[aladdin]

^^^ You fail to realize that if Imam Ali (as) was the first caliph the history would be different today. Islam would have not been brought by sword as the first three caliphs did, and after Imam Ali the other caliphs followed in the footsteps of the first three caliph and kept on spreading Islam on sword.

Why you think the third caliph Usman was murdered by his own troops?

This is one of the consequence I have mentioned, there are other consequences too.

[Saintly_Jinn23]

^ ^ ^

The idea that Islam was "spread by the sword," is total nonsense created by Anti-Islamic propaganda and has been refuted before by many Muslim and non-Muslims scholars. I'm not gonna sit and hop on the bandwagon of an anti-Muslim viewpoint. For Shia Muslims to do so would just be a shot in the foot, especially considering we Ithna Asheri have our moments in history in which people who claimed our sect converted masses of people under pain of death or exile into poverty *cough Safavids *cough

And I'll be damned if I ever believe that the Persians and Byzantines didn't deserve what they got, at least half the time, especially in the time of the first three caliphs. Every spoiled brat needs a spanking at some point or another. There's a reason why Alexander the Great (as) has been associated with Dhul Qarnayn.

Edited September 16, 2011 by Saintly_Jinn23

[Aly ReZa]

So u jinn u said that

Is my love defined by my hatred for the first three caliphs? I'm too busy loving Ali (as) to really care about them.

So u don't believe in tabarra

And so u don't practice that ??

If you are too busy in loving imam ali a.s

So y did u mentioned that the 3 caliphs are not that much bad.

If u luv ali a.s u should be freind of his follower

And you should be the enemy of imam ali a.s enemies.

What is your opinion on cursing of 3 caliphs

We shoudld curse them or not.

[Saintly_Jinn23]

So u jinn u said that

Is my love defined by my hatred for the first three caliphs? I'm too busy loving Ali (as) to really care about them.

So u don't believe in tabarra

And so u don't practice that ??

If you are too busy in loving imam ali a.s

So y did u mentioned that the 3 caliphs are not that much bad.

If u luv ali a.s u should be freind of his follower

And you should be the enemy of imam ali a.s enemies.

What is your opinion on cursing of 3 caliphs

We shoudld curse them or not.

I don't praise them nor do I curse them. Again, they are unimportant to me, as an individual and as a Shia. It is tabarra in a way, I suppose. I curse Yazeed for his crimes and disassociate myself from him and his father for obvious reasons and I disassociate myself from Aisha. With the first three caliphs, I believe they were flawed people who did do wrong at points in their life, but just because I say they were "not that bad," doesn't mean I think they were great or anything like Sunnis do. I don't accept tradition, Sunni or Shia, concerning them so if you feel they did enough wrong to be cursed, that's what you believe. To you your religion and to me my religion.

[Aly ReZa]

I don't praise them nor do I curse them. Again, they are unimportant to me, as an individual and as a Shia. It is tabarra in a way, I suppose. I curse Yazeed for his crimes and disassociate myself from him and his father for obvious reasons and I disassociate myself from Aisha. With the first three caliphs, I believe they were flawed people who did do wrong at points in their life, but just because I say they were "not that bad," doesn't mean I think they were great or anything like Sunnis do. I don't accept tradition, Sunni or Shia, concerning them so if you feel they did enough wrong to be cursed, that's what you believe. To you your religion and to me my religion.

I don't praise them nor do I curse them. Again, they are unimportant to me, as an individual and as a Shia

So in short u dnt curse them and u think that they were not that bad.

To you your religion and to me my religion.

That's the same statement which mostly people use when they are not able to defend their thoughts

when they don't find any supporting proofs this is what they say like u.

Have u ever been to any madressa or islamic classes.

I don't think so because you are speaking such a rubbish thing.

U might also not believe in amr bil maaruf and nahi anil munkar

Amr bil maruf means call toward the good deeds.

I was just trying to make u understand that what 3 caliphs are and what they have done.

We all our here to share and exchange the knowledge I am not a scholar or ulaama.

But I don't know about you are you??

Just try to reach some ulaama and ask them

U can't practice islam according to your aql sense

But as u mentioned To you your religion and to me my religion.

Its all up to you

May Allah bless us all and keep us on the right path

[tefi92]

A very famous event. (If anyone say its BOGUS.... i dont mind it at all. To me its better than so called RELIABLE REFERENCE which are also someones own interpretations)....

Imam Ali is having a sword fight with a kafir....and due to His skills, Kafir was deprived of his sword. Imam Ali raised His sword to send him to hell and thats when Kafir spat on Ali RA. Imam stopped, and put his sword back in the sword case and says " If i would have killed you before you spat, it wd have been an act in the line of duty and islam, but if i kill you now, it will be considered as my personal revenge......and thus he forgave that kafir.

He did not kill

He did not curse

He did not abuse

He did not slander

He did not shout

He abstained , not due to hatre he had for kufr, but for the love with His Allah and Rasool SAW.

Its the training he had from Rasool Allah SAW, Its the responsibility he carries to spread Islam out of love.... He is TOOO GREAT to scoop down to such lower level. Its such act of Greatness that compells others to think about Islam out of love.

My question is..... 1400 years back who the hell was Sunni? Shia, Wahabi, barelvi? Salafi?

All were just hard core muslims. Its a pitty what the followers from both the sides have done to these great muslims. If i love Imam Ali i would want to be like him, act like Him, think like Him. Thats what love is all about.

Claiming to love someone and use foul language and criticise whoever thinks otherwise is the easiest thing to do in life. The real tough call is to be like your own Beloved. Does anybody has guts for that?

Dying for beloved is much easier than to Live for your beloved. Now thats Bravery. Is anybody brave enough?

To hate someone due to his weakness is much simpler than to find out ways through which same person's strengths are brought out. This is perfect example of Iman. Is there a True Momin out there?

Its not about just the lineage buddy. Lineage does not make anyone fool proof. But it certainly enhances and glorifies your bloodline when you keep your ancestors proud. Is there anyone amongst us who can honestly say that by hating someone...Imam Ali will be proud of us?

Rasool SAW after stoned in Taaif refused Gabriel's offer from Allah, that the hills of Ahud be smashed on those who let the blood ooze out from Allah's beloved. But He SAW instead prayed that Please God! Forgive them as these people dont know the reality. with a thought that may be a day will come that ONE of them would find the right path. And you know what happened. Muhemmed Bin Qasim conquered Hindustan a few centuries after. And he was that ONE from TAAIF.

Muhemmed SAW being Allah's beloved did abstain....despite having the ultimate powers and Allah forgave when His beloved forgave. HE kept His beloved's words.

If we love Imam Ali.....why cant we keep his words? Why cant we forgive? Why cant we pray for the opponents instead of cursing them? Are we having better wisdom and reasoning than Almighty HIMSELF?

And one last thing. we should mind our tone while discussing about someone who is dear to others. I have been doing it.

Why cant you?

Are you trying to prove that Shias do not have tolerance?

They just want to verbally claim and are not liable to act like their beloved?

Dont test others patience. To me every single sahabi is respectable. I dont have that wisdom and authority to judge them. Because i believe that in order to judge someone, one has to attain that status. I am not ashamed to believe that i am not "great enough" to question these individuals. "AZMAT KI PEHCHAN KE LIYE, KHUD AZEEM HONA ZAROORI HAI".

Despite being a sunni, i have great respect for all shia friends who besides having an entire 180 degree perspective from mine, put their arguments with grace and logic. I wish i could speak like Allama Talib Johri, I wish i could be like Imam Ali, I wish i could live like imam Hassan, I wish i could die like Imam Hussain, I wish i could survive like Imam Zayn ul Abideen, i wish i could explain like our friend Saintly_Jinn23 :).

I can conveniently claim that even being a non shia......i am a better Shia of Imam Ali. Why? because i know how to love and respect as they have tried to demonstrate. And this is because of their teachings that i have respect for you all as well. Whether you like it or not.....whether you accept it or not.

[Aly ReZa]

A very famous event. (If anyone say its BOGUS.... i dont mind it at all. To me its better than so called RELIABLE REFERENCE which are also someones own interpretations)....

Imam Ali is having a sword fight with a kafir....and due to His skills, Kafir was deprived of his sword. Imam Ali raised His sword to send him to hell and thats when Kafir spat on Ali RA. Imam stopped, and put his sword back in the sword case and says " If i would have killed you before you spat, it wd have been an act in the line of duty and islam, but if i kill you now, it will be considered as my personal revenge......and thus he forgave that kafir.

He did not kill

He did not curse

He did not abuse

He did not slander

He did not shout

He abstained , not due to hatre he had for kufr, but for the love with His Allah and Rasool SAW.

Its the training he had from Rasool Allah SAW, Its the responsibility he carries to spread Islam out of love.... He is TOOO GREAT to scoop down to such lower level. Its such act of Greatness that compells others to think about Islam out of love.

My question is..... 1400 years back who the hell was Sunni? Shia, Wahabi, barelvi? Salafi?

All were just hard core muslims. Its a pitty what the followers from both the sides have done to these great muslims. If i love Imam Ali i would want to be like him, act like Him, think like Him. Thats what love is all about.

Claiming to love someone and use foul language and criticise whoever thinks otherwise is the easiest thing to do in life. The real tough call is to be like your own Beloved. Does anybody has guts for that?

Dying for beloved is much easier than to Live for your beloved. Now thats Bravery. Is anybody brave enough?

To hate someone due to his weakness is much simpler than to find out ways through which same person's strengths are brought out. This is perfect example of Iman. Is there a True Momin out there?

Its not about just the lineage buddy. Lineage does not make anyone fool proof. But it certainly enhances and glorifies your bloodline when you keep your ancestors proud. Is there anyone amongst us who can honestly say that by hating someone...Imam Ali will be proud of us?

Rasool SAW after stoned in Taaif refused Gabriel's offer from Allah, that the hills of Ahud be smashed on those who let the blood ooze out from Allah's beloved. But He SAW instead prayed that Please God! Forgive them as these people dont know the reality. with a thought that may be a day will come that ONE of them would find the right path. And you know what happened. Muhemmed Bin Qasim conquered Hindustan a few centuries after. And he was that ONE from TAAIF.

Muhemmed SAW being Allah's beloved did abstain....despite having the ultimate powers and Allah forgave when His beloved forgave. HE kept His beloved's words.

If we love Imam Ali.....why cant we keep his words? Why cant we forgive? Why cant we pray for the opponents instead of cursing them? Are we having better wisdom and reasoning than Almighty HIMSELF?

And one last thing. we should mind our tone while discussing about someone who is dear to others. I have been doing it.

Why cant you?

Are you trying to prove that Shias do not have tolerance?

They just want to verbally claim and are not liable to act like their beloved?

Dont test others patience. To me every single sahabi is respectable. I dont have that wisdom and authority to judge them. Because i believe that in order to judge someone, one has to attain that status. I am not ashamed to believe that i am not "great enough" to question these individuals. "AZMAT KI PEHCHAN KE LIYE, KHUD AZEEM HONA ZAROORI HAI".

Despite being a sunni, i have great respect for all shia friends who besides having an entire 180 degree perspective from mine, put their arguments with grace and logic. I wish i could speak like Allama Talib Johri, I wish i could be like Imam Ali, I wish i could live like imam Hassan, I wish i could die like Imam Hussain, I wish i could survive like Imam Zayn ul Abideen, i wish i could explain like our friend Saintly_Jinn23 :).

I can conveniently claim that even being a non shia......i am a better Shia of Imam Ali. Why? because i know how to love and respect as they have tried to demonstrate. And this is because of their teachings that i have respect for you all as well. Whether you like it or not.....whether you accept it or not.

Well the story which u are trying to convey is battle of khandaq

And u lack a part.

Imam ali a.s attacked the Amr bin abdawud (the guy about whom u were talking)

And sat on his chest to kill him.

then He spat on imam ali a.s face imam ali a.s got up from his chest and was moving around him after few minutes Amr bin abdawud tried to attack imam ali a.s so imam ali a.s empowered him and killed him.

After the battle when the campanion asked imam ali a.s that why you have do that imam ali replied that I want to killed him for the Allah s.w.t

Sake not because of my personal revenge

That's the story. 1 more thing we have somthing called tabarra in which we have to be the enemy to enemies of ahlulbayt a.s so now according to you we should not practice that. if you say that you love imam ali a.s you might also known about his parents and family.

Will you plz tell me about that.

Second thing as per your opinion imam ali a.s deserve the 1st caliphate or not.

As I am surfing from my cell phone I didn't got a proper links but I have brought something (as u told u love imam ali a.s)

Refer to this

www.Ezsoftech/storiesimamali5.asp

www.duas.org/imamali.htm

Edited September 16, 2011 by aly reza

[JimJam]

I remember my teacher told me a few ahadith that i wish to share with you. I dont know the exact words or references but its moral is enough to substantiate the crux:

"During Hz Omar's Khilafat, one day son of Hz Omar came to him crying. Upon asking he said "Father..... I was playing with Hussein Ibn e Ali (ra) today (when he was also a kid) when he called me "Ibn ul Ghulam", and he called me with that name more than twice". Hz Omar stood up immediately with blood rushing on his face and took the boys hand asking him to lead where childern were playing. He approached Hussain Ibn e Ali and asked him "Hussain! did you call my son as "Ibn ul Ghulam". Hussain replied "Yes i did". Hz Omar became restless and asked two more times and the answer was the same.

Hz Omar was speechless and with tears in his eyes, he asked little Hussain..... "My child can you give this statement in writing?" and Hussain immediately and confidently answered "Yes. but why do you need it in writing?"

Hz Omar Replied: "Because i will ask in my WASEEYAT that when i die, please keep this written endorsement from Hussain Ibne Ali (ra) that I am the GHULAM of ALI (ra). so that when angels come to question me, i could show it as a proof that i am an honored to be Hz Ali's (ra) Ghulam".

Furthermore, there even a few intances where Hz Omar proclaimed on loud after being advised on a few matters by Imam Ali that "Oh Ali! by advising me you have saved me from destruction".

What say of Hz Abu Bakr (ra) that when during his khilafat he used to go to Hz Ali's house for seeking advice. Once Hz Ayesha states that my father asked a few questions and as long as Hz Ali answered Hz Abu Bakr constantly kept on looking at his face. So she asked afterwards, that father i noticed that you were constantly watching Imam Ali's face, while when he was explaining, he was looking here and there. Hz Abu Bakr replied: " Daughter he was performing his duty, i was performing my prayers". Such respect these Sahaba had for Hz Ali. Such love they had for him.

And now about Imam Ali....... Upon shahadat of Hz Osman didnt he scolded young Hussain ibne Ali for not being vigile enough as he was being kept on duty for guardig the caliphs life?

I also heard that when it was declared that at the time of Hz Abu Bakr's allegience....when Imam Ali heard.... he imediately rushed to take the same.

People...you might disagree with me if you want to. But heart does not need any logic, reference, shahadat. Imam Ali and Hz Abu Bakr both did not ask for EVIDENCE when prophethood was declared. Feron and Namrood asked for many and still did not accept. Faith lies where the heart is.

Here i would try to highlight a point. I also believe that Imam Ali's reality was very very superior. And it might as well be possible that he deserved to be the successor of Muhemmed SAW. But the reason he did tabarra was the fact that he did not opt Khilafat himself. Although there are references that the 1st 3 califs insisted him to take bayt. But he opted not to do so. And to avoid further SHAR Hz Omar took a step to declare that do bayt on Hz Abu Bakar's hands (as then he was most respectful after Imam ALI.

Thats one way of looking at things. There are several other sources which depict the beautiful relation among all these individuals.

What we are doing wrong is that we are comparing Khilafat with Imamat. Imamat is something else friends and you know it better than me. Not many of us know the exact meaning of Imamat. Khilafat is the administrative duty for zahir. Imamat to me has a superior role. but these are two flip sides of a same coin. Establishing Khilafat has its own earthly political requisites. Imamat is .... i cant express. Khilafat, Imamat, Nabuwwat, Risaalat.....these are all different matters. Not only literally but as far as REALITY is concerned these have different constituencies. Adam AS was supposed to be sent to EARTH as a khalifa.... Imams do not have to go to EARTH. How do i explain people you know better than me!!

Its the rank and the role. But individuals given responsibilities HAVE to obey whatever is being given to them. What we are doing is that we are asking a Chief of the Armed forces to come down and command a country's naval fleet. But does it undermines the role of a Naval chief....NO! A president is the supreme commander of forces but the ultimate adinistration is handled solely by the chief of armed forces.

I cant be more blunt than this.

Ali as a person is someone else

As a Khalifa is something else

Being Imam is someone else

same goes for the other three caliphs.

Well anyways this is what i feel and this is what my heart says.

If Umar and Abu Bakr considered Ali (as) so great then why did they go behind his back and to install themselves king? They knew he was opposed to their ambitions and yet they didnt even think to consult him.

Why did Abu Bakr have Umar nominated as the next king with he was so respectful of Ali (as)? Why did Umar not give the khalifate to Ali (as) if he considered himself the Ghulam of Ali (as)?

The most meritorious man should rule.

The Khilafat means successorship. Successorship to who? Muhammad (pbuh). The term Khalifa is short for Khalifa tur Rasul Allah which in english means "successor of the Allah's messenger".

Imamate means Leadership. Muhammad (pbuh) was the leader of Muslims. His heirs were his Ahl-e-Bait. He appointed Ali (as) as successor. Muhammad's authority was both spiritual and temporal.It stands to reason that his successor, anyone with the title "successor of the Allah's messenger" would have to have both temporal and spiritual leadership.

OP you are theorizing a seperation of church and state which does not exist in Islam and whose justification is not found in the Quran or Hadith. The Quran tells us to obey the Ulul al Amr and the Imans said they were the rightful Ulul al Amr. You claim love of the Ahl-e-Bayt but does that claim of love translate into action or is your claim but a mere claim. You claim love for the Ahl-e-Bayt but then take your religion from Umar and Abu Hanifa. To them belongs your loyalty in truth. We Shias are loyalist of the Ahl-e-Bayt. We take our religion and philosophy from them. Our worldview depends on their opinions. We do not say "the Ahl-e-Bayt are ours". We say "we are theirs"

Edited September 16, 2011 by JimJam

[JimJam]

One who earns the title of Imam is always superior. So superior in fact that to say the Imam must be a caliph to fully realize his position

One who earns the title of Imam is always superior. So superior in fact that to say the Imam must be a caliph to fully realize his position as Imam is an insult.

This is one trouble with some of the Shia, they don't believe Imam Ali's Imamat was realized or complete because he wasn't made Caliphate. That's one trouble I have with the idea that Ali HAD to be the first caliph, it makes his life incomplete. Whereas making caliphate unimportant for Ali to have to take it makes his lifelong mission fulfilled. That's what saddens me about some of my fellow Shia, they treat the Imams as failures because they are so focused on this idea of "Caliphate." Rather should I say "earthly caliphate"

Imamat is "spiritual caliphate," and that's all that matters in the end. Let Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman, have the earthly version, it only passes away like everything else in this world.

It is for the good of the world that the Imam must be given authority and obedience. It was not Ali (as) that was in loss when he was marginalized by the Qureshi elite, that only vindicated him,but was the Muslim world that was in loss and the pagan clan which had waged war against Muhammad (pbuh) for most of Islam's early history got themselves declared Amir ul Momineen, "Commanders of the Faithful", that too over the bodies of ali (as) and both of Muhammad's (pbuh) grandson's no less.

Edited September 16, 2011 by JimJam

[aladdin]

This is what Imam Ali (as) think of:

1. Abu Bakr

2. Omar

3. Usman

SERMON 3

Nahjul Balagha (Peak of Eloquence)

By Imam Ali (as)

http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/3.htm

Known as the Sermon of ash-Shiqshiqiyyah⁽¹⁾

Beware! By Allah the son of Abu Quhafah (Abu Bakr)⁽²⁾ dressed himself with it (the caliphate) and he certainly knew that my position in relation to it was the same as the position of the axis in relation to the hand-mill. The flood water flows down from me and the bird cannot fly upto me. I put a curtain against the caliphate and kept myself detached from it.

Then I began to think whether I should assault or endure calmly the blinding darkness of tribulations wherein the grown up are made feeble and the young grow old and the true believer acts under strain till he meets Allah (on his death). I found that endurance thereon was wiser. So I adopted patience although there was [Edited Out]ing in the eye and suffocation (of mortification) in the throat. I watched the plundering of my inheritance till the first one went his way but handed over the Caliphate to Ibn al-Khattab after himself.

(Then he quoted al-A`sha's verse).

My days are now passed on the camel's back

(in difficulty)

while there were days

(of ease)

when I enjoyed the company of Jabir's brother Hayyan.

(3)

It is strange that during his lifetime he wished to be released from the caliphate but he confirmed it for the other one after his death. No doubt these two shared its udders strictly among themselves. This one put the Caliphate in a tough enclosure where the utterance was haughty and the touch was rough. Mistakes were in plenty and so also the excuses therefore. One in contact with it was like the rider of an unruly camel. If he pulled up its rein the very nostril would be slit, but if he let it loose he would be thrown. Consequently, by Allah people got involved in recklessness, wickedness, unsteadiness and deviation.

Nevertheless, I remained patient despite length of period and stiffness of trial, till when he went his way (of death) he put the matter (of Caliphate) in a group⁽⁴⁾ and regarded me to be one of them. But good Heavens! what had I to do with this "consultation"? Where was any doubt about me with regard to the first of them that I was now considered akin to these ones? But I remained low when they were low and flew high when they flew high. One of them turned against me because of his hatred and the other got inclined the other way due to his in-law relationship and this thing and that thing, till the third man of these people stood up with heaving breasts between his dung and fodder. With him his children of his grand-father, (Umayyah) also stood up swallowing up Allah's wealth⁽⁵⁾ like a camel devouring the foliage of spring, till his rope broke down, his actions finished him and his gluttony brought him down prostrate.

At that moment, nothing took me by surprise, but the crowd of people rushing to me. It advanced towards me from every side like the mane of the hyena so much so that Hasan and Husayn were getting crushed and both the ends of my shoulder garment were torn. They collected around me like the herd of sheep and goats. When I took up the reins of government one party broke away and another turned disobedient while the rest began acting wrongfully as if they had not heard the word of Allah saying:

That abode in the hereafter, We assign it for those who intend not to exult themselves in the earth, nor

(to make)

mischief

(therein)

;

and the end is

(best)

for the pious ones.

(Qur'an, 28:83)

Yes, by Allah, they had heard it and understood it but the world appeared glittering in their eyes and its embellishments seduced them. Behold, by Him who split the grain (to grow) and created living beings, if people had not come to me and supporters had not exhausted the argument and if there had been no pledge of Allah with the learned to the effect that they should not acquiesce in the gluttony of the oppressor and the hunger of the oppressed I would have cast the rope of Caliphate on its own shoulders, and would have given the last one the same treatment as to the first one. Then you would have seen that in my view this world of yours is no better than the sneezing of a goat.

(It is said that when Amir al-mu'minin reached here in his sermon a man of Iraq stood up and handed him over a writing. Amir al-mu'minin began looking at it, when Ibn `Abbas said, "O' Amir al-mu'minin, I wish you resumed your Sermon from where you broke it." Thereupon he replied, "O' Ibn `Abbas it was like the foam of a Camel which gushed out but subsided." Ibn `Abbas says that he never grieved over any utterance as he did over this one because Amir al-mu'minin could not finish it as he wished to.)

ash-Sharif ar-Radi says: The words in this sermon "like the rider of a camel" mean to convey that when a camel rider is stiff in drawing up the rein then in this scuffle the nostril gets bruised, but if he lets it loose in spite of the camel's unruliness, it would throw him somewhere and would get out of control. "ashnaq an-naqah"is used when the rider holds up the rein and raises the camel's head upwards. In the same sense the word "shanaqa an-naqah" is used. Ibn as-Sikkit has mentioned this in Islah al-mantiq. Amir al-mu'minin has said "ashnaqa laha" instead of "ashnaqaha", this is because he has used this word in harmony with "aslasa laha" and harmony could be retained only by using both in the same form. Thus, Amir al-mu'minin has used "ashnaqa laha" as though in place of "in rafa`a laha ra'saha", that is, "if he stops it by holding up the reins."

⁽¹⁾. This sermon is known as the sermon of ash-Shiqshiqiyyah, and is counted among the most famous sermons of Amir al-mu'minin. It was delivered at ar-Rahbah. Although some people have denied it to be Amir al-mu'minin's utterance and by attributing it to as-Sayyid ar-Radi (or ash-Sharif ar-Radi) have laid blame on his acknowledged integrity, yet truth-loving scholars have denied its veracity. Nor can there be any ground for this denial because `Ali's (p.b.u.h.) difference of view in the matter of Caliphate is not a secret matter, so that such hints should be regarded as something alien. And the events which have been alluded to in this sermon are preserved in the annals of history which testifies them word by word and sentence by sentence. If the same events which are related by history are recounted by Amir al-mu'minin then what is the ground for denying them? If the memory of discouraging circumstances faced by him soon after the death of the Prophet appeared unpalatable to him it should not be surprising. No doubt this sermon hits at the prestige of certain personalities and gives a set back to the faith and belief in them but this cannot be sustained by denying the sermon to be Amir al-mu'minin's utterance, unless the true events are analysed and truth unveiled; otherwise just denying it to be Amir al-mu'minin's utterance because it contains disparagement of certain individuals carries no weight, when similar criticism has been related by other historians as well. Thus (Abu `Uthman) `Amr ibn Bahr al-Jahiz has recorded the following words of a sermon of Amir al-mu'minin and they are not less weighty than the criticism in the "Sermon of ash-Shiqshiqiyyah."

Those two passed away and the third one rose like the crow whose courage is confined to the belly. It would have been better if both his wings had been cut and his head severed.

Consequently, the idea that it is the production of as-Sayyid ar-Radi is far from truth and a result of partisanship and partiality. Or else if it is the result of some research it should be brought out. Otherwise, remaining in such wishful illusion does not alter the truth, nor can the force of decisive arguments be curbed down by mere disagreement and displeasure.

Now we set forth the evidence of those scholars and traditionists who have clearly held it to be Amir al-mu'minin's production, so that its historical importance should become known. Among these scholars some are those before as-Sayyid ar-Radi's period, some are his contemporaries and some are those who came after him but they all related it through their own chain of authority.

[tefi92]

See Allah Himself is pointing His Finger on two of them:

Say what?????

[tefi92]

If Umar and Abu Bakr considered Ali (as) so great then why did they go behind his back and to install themselves king? They knew he was opposed to their ambitions and yet they didnt even think to consult him.

Why did Abu Bakr have Umar nominated as the next king with he was so respectful of Ali (as)? Why did Umar not give the khalifate to Ali (as) if he considered himself the Ghulam of Ali (as)?

The most meritorious man should rule.

The Khilafat means successorship. Successorship to who? Muhammad (pbuh). The term Khalifa is short for Khalifa tur Rasul Allah which in english means "successor of the Allah's messenger".

Imamate means Leadership. Muhammad (pbuh) was the leader of Muslims. His heirs were his Ahl-e-Bait. He appointed Ali (as) as successor. Muhammad's authority was both spiritual and temporal.It stands to reason that his successor, anyone with the title "successor of the Allah's messenger" would have to have both temporal and spiritual leadership.

OP you are theorizing a seperation of church and state which does not exist in Islam and whose justification is not found in the Quran or Hadith. The Quran tells us to obey the Ulul al Amr and the Imans said they were the rightful Ulul al Amr. You claim love of the Ahl-e-Bayt but does that claim of love translate into action or is your claim but a mere claim. You claim love for the Ahl-e-Bayt but then take your religion from Umar and Abu Hanifa. To them belongs your loyalty in truth. We Shias are loyalist of the Ahl-e-Bayt. We take our religion and philosophy from them. Our worldview depends on their opinions. We do not say "the Ahl-e-Bayt are ours". We say "we are theirs"

Bhaijaan.....If anyone does not follow Imam Ali..... then forget about them. Are you following him. His grace, his wisdom, his demonstration of love?

Or you also are among those who ONLY talk non sense and just claim and do nothing in practical. Iqbal rightly said:

"Khud ko badalte nahin, quran ko badal detay hain

Huaay hain kis qadar faqeehan e haram, be tawfeeq"

You people seem to obsessed with the other 3 caliphs. Why? Even we as sunnis do not think about them so much. Why are you guys so insecure?

i am sorry but what my intentions were that i wanted to discuss a few things of peace and harmony, of love and respect. But i think i made a mistake. Your faith is based on Hatre and will remain like this forever. You and people like you are responsible for forcing other people be Anti Ali. Not because of Him,.... but because of you.

Just look at our behaviors. Full of sound, fury, anger, violence, curse, destruction.

Where is the love for Ahle Bayt? Where are their teachings?

I am constantly praising Imam Ali ... just to make you guys realise that we also love him. But you are trapped in the thick puddle of hatre from where you do not seem to get out. Your actions shall speak louder than words. Nagar Nagar Gali Gali like slogans are futile. Ali is in our Hearts. He was not sent only for shias. Sorry......you are mistaken. Imam Ali and all Imams are sent for the whole mankind. They are universal leaders. But i am sorry it is the followers who somehow always make sure to not only undermine their existence but also degrade them. My fault is failure of my role model/ mentor. It goes to all of us. Please see you are letting others raise their fingers on someone great because of your attitude. Is this what Rasool SAW and Imam Ali has taught?

Go on.......hate everybody.

Some sufi once said:

"Aadam ke kisi roop ki tehqeer na kerna...........

Phirta hai zamanay mein khuda bhes badal ker"

i did not start the topic for this.

i am sorry that i did.

[aladdin]

Say what?????

Read the complete chapter 66 of the Holy Quran, which I quoted you. It only has 12 verses, and it is about Prophet's (pbuh) two wives, namely Aisha daughter of abu Bakr and Hafsa daughter of Omar.

Edited September 16, 2011 by aladdin

[tefi92]

Read the complete chapter 66 of the Holy Quran, which I quoted you. It only has 12 verses, and it is about Prophet's (pbuh) two wives, namely Aisha daughter of abu Bakr and Hafsa daughter of Omar.

You mean to say the same MOTHER OF BELIEVERS who was given the status by the prophet was condemned by Allah. What a contradiction.

Btw i think debating on these issues we are going off track.

[aladdin]

You mean to say the same MOTHER OF BELIEVERS who was given the status by the prophet was condemned by Allah. What a contradiction.

Do you believe in the Holy Quran or not. I have quoted you the Holy Quran. These two are not condemned by me, but Allah Himself.

BTW, The mother of a honor student is herself is not honor.

The mother of momineen doesn't mean that she is a momeen.

Basically, after the death of rasool Mohammad (pbuh) no one was allowed to marry his widowed wives. In Islam marriage to mothers is not allowed.

See, how simple the reason is for her being a mother.

Her first cousin was eyeing to marry her after the death of the Prophet (pbuh)

Allah check mated her and her first cousin.

The above shows that she was not very happy to being married to the Prophet (pbuh), she was waiting for him to die soon, so that she can remarry.

The planning was already underway.

Read Chapter 33 verses 53-56 about planning to marry the cousin.

[Saintly_Jinn23]

I don't praise them nor do I curse them. Again, they are unimportant to me, as an individual and as a Shia

So in short u dnt curse them and u think that they were not that bad.

To you your religion and to me my religion.

That's the same statement which mostly people use when they are not able to defend their thoughts

when they don't find any supporting proofs this is what they say like u.

Have u ever been to any madressa or islamic classes.

I don't think so because you are speaking such a rubbish thing.

U might also not believe in amr bil maaruf and nahi anil munkar

Amr bil maruf means call toward the good deeds.

I was just trying to make u understand that what 3 caliphs are and what they have done.

We all our here to share and exchange the knowledge I am not a scholar or ulaama.

But I don't know about you are you??

Just try to reach some ulaama and ask them

U can't practice islam according to your aql sense

But as u mentioned To you your religion and to me my religion.

Its all up to you

May Allah bless us all and keep us on the right path

I practice Islam in truth, do you? I say to you your religion and to me my religion because that is what the Quran says for me to say. Is the Quran wrong in your eyes?

NO, I DO NOT THINK THEY WERE THAT BAD. I DO NOT BELIEVE HALF OF WHAT IS SAID BY SHIA OF WHAT THEY DID! GET OFF MY BACK ABOUT IT! NOR DO I FEEL THAT MAKES ME ANY LESS SHIA THAN YOU!

And I doubt you personally are capable of proving to me or even to yourself for that matter that what you have been told by whomever of what they did was true. JUST BECAUSE I SAY THEY WERE NOT "THAT BAD," DOESN'T MEAN I THINK THEY WERE "THAT GOOD." Again, I follow different traditions than you do, thus my religion is different. Stop attacking me for it.

[Saintly_Jinn23]

It is for the good of the world that the Imam must be given authority and obedience. It was not Ali (as) that was in loss when he was marginalized by the Qureshi elite, that only vindicated him,but was the Muslim world that was in loss and the pagan clan which had waged war against Muhammad (pbuh) for most of Islam's early history got themselves declared Amir ul Momineen, "Commanders of the Faithful", that too over the bodies of ali (as) and both of Muhammad's (pbuh) grandson's no less.

Yes, you are correct, but what I'm saying is that many Shia think that because Ali was not a caliph in the same manner that Abu Bakr was made caliph that the Ummah did not recognize him as having authority. I'm saying that Ali from the beginning held the highest authority over the Ummah even when the first three caliphs were in power.

[Ali-Mohammed]

Kâla Rasul Allâh (SAWAS) : 'Ali khayr al bachar man aba bihi kafar

please a translation because I'm don't speak good english

[tefi92]

Yes, you are correct, but what I'm saying is that many Shia think that because Ali was not a caliph in the same manner that Abu Bakr was made caliph that the Ummah did not recognize him as having authority. I'm saying that Ali from the beginning held the highest authority over the Ummah even when the first three caliphs were in power.

Yes. Thats the whole point friends!

Look at the logic and the wisdom behind the events. Theres nothing that is not done without Allah's WILL & wisdom and at which Allah does not hold the ultimate authority upon.

"Innallaha a'ala kulli shay3in Qadeer"

Look! Imamat has its own maqaam. There are a few prerquisites the ummat has to collectively, understand in order to be able to DIGEST Reality. If a 1 year old child asks about the moon you cant answer him in real sense. You only give him what he can understand. And keep on giving different answers until he is mature enough to conceive the REALITY (HAQ).

To DIGEST an Imam, one has to, by virtue of being a FARAD or an UMMAT, be mentally and physically MATURE ENOUGH. may be Allah WANTED this way that people have to first go through and pass 3 stages and get mature, in order to accept and know the reality of Actual Imamat. Allah does not think like we do dear and that i am sure you guys will agree with this.

The upbringing of Moses in Feron's castle is one good example. Who would have thought about it.

The ummat has to know the reality of Siddiqiyat, Jihad and Justice. Please read my own interpretation given below for the three terms before jumping to conclusions.

Allah only chose a few individuals for that lets say the 3 caliphs. Now why these three individuals were being chosen, is a debate i would not be interested in. (May be Nauzubillah Almighty should have asked people like us for that

what i am more interested in is that how this ummat e khaas developed and only a few were ready to accept Imamat in TRUE SENSE. These few are not neccessarily the ones who only CLAIM to be one of them or belongs to the same BLOODLINE. These are the few which have continued the spreading the actual message of Islam & essence and will continue till the last day. These are the best of the best. And believe me i am not interested in the majority when i speak of those FEW;. Quran itself condemns the majority. Now another debate arises that was this Best of the Best lot, the actual Ahle Bayt of the prophet? YES...there are no different views or voices on that

But the problem arises after 11 imams where i believe the imamat continued its establishment and you say it went into ghayaba. Lets not discuss it and return to our actual point.

Allama Iqbal has said:

"Sabaq Phir perh... SADAQAT ka, SHUJA'ATka, ADALATka;

Liya jaaiga TUJH se kaam, DUNIYA ki "IMAMAT" ka

Wow .... u see how beautifully he has explained the stages to accept, implement and establish Imamat. He says that one has to learn to accept the truth, the "HAQ", once he is able to digest then he shall have no fear to implement it give Shahadat on that, and then only he will be able to do justice. Justice with the HAQ. And when he attains this stage......Then only he can LEAD.

Secondly he has used the word PHIR i.e. AGAIN, which shows the contuinuity of the SAME phenomenon. He is Addressing YOU both as individual and as an Ummat. and he has also envisaged imamat for DUNIYA, the whole world....the whole galaxy and the whole universe. Not for BANI ISRAEL, Not for Bahrain, Not for Shias, Not for Barelvis.....but for the whole WORLD.

Rasool SAW was sent for the whole Universe. Allah is Rabbul ALAMEEN, Muhemmed SAW is REHMATA LIL ALAMEEN, Imam is Amir ul MOMINEEN. Momineen ... whoever accepts Allah and Muhemmed SAW. Not just MUSLIMEEN or SHI'EEN. The word used is ALAMEEN not just MUSLIMEEN or one singly group.

I know i havent done justice to this great reality i know but i can write for ages on this and still cant do justice to that.

Dont get into the trap of worldly events dear all........ The True khilafat IS established today as well and NO ONE can EVER harm that. Its divine and its there....in control of Allah HIMSELF.

Imamat is the RAHMA to the mankind. The kingmaker! Its the "IAM WHAT I AM" ; and is BE NIAZ absolutely, whether people understand this, or not, accepts it or not.

The only reason to go through these 3 stages is that atleast ONE person out of billions shall be able to do know the actual QADAR of an Imam. Believe me even ONE is enough. It is Allah's RAHMAT that he let the humanity learn through stages to do QADAR of Imam. I dont care if 99.99999% people are misguided. I am happy that atleast ONE among us knows the QADAR and if it is ok with my Allah then its ok for me as well. And that is Imam e Waqt, Imam e Zaman, Awtar, Anti-christ, in the nutshell Imam Mahdi....One who guides.

How can one who is misguided himself or is still seeking guidance, guide me? It is only the ONE who has reached THERE, who can provide me true guidance. ONLY ONE.

Edited September 17, 2011 by tefi92