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In the Name of God بسم الله

Why Don't Sunnis Believe In Hadeeth Kisa' ?

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(salam)

Differentiation mentioned in verse 2:136, 2:185 is regarding the belief not regarding the rank.

We make no difference between any of His messengers; 2:285

Means we do not believe in some and disbelieve in others(we believe in all) as is explained in the following verse.

[shakir 4:150] Surely those who disbelieve in Allah and His messengers and (those who) desire to make a distinction between Allah and His messengers and say: We believe in some and disbelieve in others, and desire to take a course between (this and) that.

[shakir 4:151] These it is that are truly unbelievers, and We have prepared for the unbelievers a disgraceful chastisement.

People who believe in Allah subhanhu and disbelieve in his messengers are making distinction between Allah and His messengers.

That is the true meaning of “making distinction”

lets think what differentiation is prohibited?

can we say there is no difference between the prophets in their names or languages or their ceremonial practices? NO

so we can differentiate and say " prophet jesus spoke aramic and prophet mohamad spoke arabic"

and we can not deny differentiation period because they were two different people and hence some differences. what is prohibited is the favoritism and supremacy. التحيز والافضليه التفرقه الانانيه

so what differentiation is prohibited?

the differentiation that's prohibited is for the humans to differentiate in their status with god

(for example to say prophet Isaa had a better status in gods eyes that prophet mohamad or prophet mohamad had a better status in gods eyes than prophet Jesus)

because this knowledge is exclusive to god

the prohibition of differentiation prohibits any differentiation including the comparing of the ranks because all the messengers are from one light

I dont think its like your interpretation that it only refers to rejecting one prophet and accepting another. differentiation is making a difference in the level too

Edited by alimohamad40
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They Do believe in it just they imply different implications they also believe that the prophet raised Alis hand and said : whoever i was his mawla now ali is his mawla but once again they give it a d

Maybe because..... Question: Concerning your answer about Hadith Al-Kisaa, you said that it is not authentic in its details … while, this Hadith is being narrated in some countries before every Husain

the details are the additions liek what you find i the book of " Alawalim" but the actual event is not disputed. its details like god created all the creation only for the love of the five and alwyl

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(salam)

(bismillah)

Hadeeth al Kisaa' is authentic, until proven otherwise. Furthermore, it's narrated through Jabir ibn Abdillah al ansari who was a trustworthy person. Case Closed.

You do know it is called "chain of narrators", emphasis on the plural form of narrator. Jaabir bin `Abd Allaah al-AnSaar is merely one person in the 20+ person chain of narrators. If we assume that this chain is even legitimate. Seems as if the person who made this chain of narrators didn't know too much about the tabaqah of the narrators and made them out of order.

This chain of narrators that has been mentioned in al-`Awaalim is fabricated. There are some narrators who have never narrated from each other or ever appeared in the same sanad of a hadeeth. Also, sometimes the order of the narrators are out of order, one person is suppose to receive a hadeeth from another person, instead of the other way around. The more and more I research about this "chain of narrators", the more and more it seems as if it was fabricated, and attempted to put our "top narrators" together in one chain to pass it off. If anyone knows the basic principles of `ilm al-rijaal, specifically tabaqah al-hadeeth of specific narrators, then you can easily see how fabricated this chain is.

(salam)

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it is absolutely forbidden to question, criticise or call into question in any way an utterance, fatwa or speech of any marja or scholar.

but we must only ever obey fadhlallah (who btw was pronounced a deviant before he died) and trust him in matters relating to the ahlul bayt, especially if he is rejecting anything which speaks in their favour.

obviously he is the only one who is right, while all other modern marjas must be wrong. all those decades wasted studying in hawzas, when they could have saved their time and referred to fadhlallah, nader zaveri or haider hussain.

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^ brother you always talk about the problems you have with usoolism, but whenever evidence is presented to you that you don't like, or goes against your what you want to believe, you get upset. I think in this case, the evidence presented by Nader Zaveri that the long version is made up, is pretty conclusive. Do you have a fatwa by any marja to say that the long version is authentic? If so, in light of the evidence, would you not doubt the sencerity of such a marja, if he can't be honest about a 'hadith' that doesn't change anything, be it authentic or not, what else can he not be honest about.

What part of the evidence presented do you not agree with?

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it is absolutely forbidden to question, criticise or call into question in any way an utterance, fatwa or speech of any marja or scholar.

but we must only ever obey fadhlallah (who btw was pronounced a deviant before he died) and trust him in matters relating to the ahlul bayt, especially if he is rejecting anything which speaks in their favour.

obviously he is the only one who is right, while all other modern marjas must be wrong. all those decades wasted studying in hawzas, when they could have saved their time and referred to fadhlallah, nader zaveri or haider hussain.

lol. Simply, love it. Yes, Mr. Zaveri the resident alim of ShiaChat who grade hadiths and give online fatwas on ShiaChat. Whose knowledge of Arabic language is almost to nothing.

Now, we are becoming the religion of Alhul Sunnah Wa Jammah, where anyone, the likes of Tom, Richard and Harry without the knowledge of Islam, let alone the knowledge of Arabic language can give a fatwa. Any Tom, Richard and Harry is sufficient to issue fatwas.

^ brother you always talk about the problems you have with usoolism, but whenever evidence is presented to you that you don't like, or goes against your what you want to believe, you get upset. I think in this case, the evidence presented by Nader Zaveri that the long version is made up, is pretty conclusive. Do you have a fatwa by any marja to say that the long version is authentic? If so, in light of the evidence, would you not doubt the sencerity of such a marja, if he can't be honest about a 'hadith' that doesn't change anything, be it authentic or not, what else can he not be honest about.

What part of the evidence presented do you not agree with?

The part that the long version is narrated throughout the ages in mosques, masjids, madrassas, home and so forth.

What is sanad?

A verbal transmission from memory in the chain of transmission of hadith.

Did your parents teach you the long version from memory while you were kid?

Have you heard it before in mosques, masjids, madrassas, home and so forth?

No, you want that Mr. A transmitted to Mr. B and Mr B ........ in a chain of transmission, and then someone saying that Mr. A, Mr. B ...... are all reliable, then the hadith becomes sahih for you, . Even the person testifying the reliability of the chain, never met anyone in the chain.

But the long version for ages narrated, transmitted throughout the ages in mosques, masjids, madrassas, home and so forth is not reliable, because why?

Edited by aladdin
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How come you are so full of certainty on this issue, yet so full of doubts on more fundamental issues such as the justice of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì?

And for someone who asks so many questions, you come across as a little intolerant of other people's ones.

Yes, Haider, i am full of certainty regarding this issue because i know it is substantial. However, There are other contentious issues that i want to question, that doesn't mean i disbelieve the foundation. I have realized that through doubting, contemplating, digging deep and keeping open minded, the answer is revealed. I don't think i have been intolerant of anyones question. Do you have an example where i have??

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^^^

ala aldeen saying that memory is a way of proving something does not stand any grounds

to prove some thing you need documentation

memory is just a tool and has limitations which the book doesn't

if memory was sufficient god would not have given a book he would just say memorize it and that's it

The Holy Quran was first and foremost preserved with memory. Nobody could read the written Quran during the lifetime of Imam Ali (as) let alone the lifetime of the Prophet (pbuh), unless they read the written part from memory. It was Imam Ali's students, especially abu Aswad who from directives from the Imam put the Arabic Diacritics, after the death of Imam.

Bukhari complied his Sahih Bukhari from the memory of those who were present around him, two hundred plus years later after the death of the Prophet. Then he went up the chain (sanad) until the sanad reached to the Prophet from memory. He then made assumptions of the reliability of each person in the sanad.

So everything was preserved from memory and then written down. No doubt the Holy Quran was written down from the onset, but it couldn't be read unless one had it memorized. You are an Arab and you should know.

Now the long version of hadith al-Kisa was too passed down through memory, in mosques, mimbars, schools, homes and so forth. Country after country, town after town, home after home. There are probably minor variation in the recitation, but the major principles in the recitation don't differ from country to country, town to town, home to home. If today, if I write it down it won't be exactly the same as how it is recited in your home, as it will contain minor variations, but it will not contain major variations in principles.

So, whose version with minor variation should be verified by a ilim to be Sahih.

Edited by aladdin
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Till today, the Holy Quran is preserved through memory, through millions of Hafiz al-Quran.

Just like, how the written Bible is subtlety changed from printing to printing, so could the written Holy Quran be subtlety changed by the Saudis from printing to printing, but the Hafiz al-Quran are keeping things in check. Checks and balances.

You can see how the Wahhabis are subtlety changing the written hadiths books from printing to printing as proven by Ayatollah Hydari.

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Till today, the Holy Quran is preserved through memory, through millions of Hafiz al-Quran.

Just like, how the written Bible is subtlety changed from printing to printing, so could the written Holy Quran be subtlety changed by the Saudis from printing to printing, but the Hafiz al-Quran are keeping things in check. Checks and balances.

You can see how the Wahhabis are subtlety changing the written hadiths books from printing to printing as proven by Ayatollah Hydari.

Brilliant. Good Point.

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it is absolutely forbidden to question, criticise or call into question in any way an utterance, fatwa or speech of any marja or scholar.

Again, you are misrepresenting those you disagree with. Why don't you quote those you claim say that it is forbidden to question any marja or scholar?

but we must only ever obey fadhlallah (who btw was pronounced a deviant before he died) and trust him in matters relating to the ahlul bayt, especially if he is rejecting anything which speaks in their favour.

Nobody has said that the reason the hadith is doubtful is because Fadlallah said so.

obviously he is the only one who is right, while all other modern marjas must be wrong. all those decades wasted studying in hawzas, when they could have saved their time and referred to fadhlallah, nader zaveri or haider hussain.

First of all there is no taqlid in matters of belief, so what the marjas say here doesn't carry nearly as much weight as it would in fiqh. Secondly, nobody has posted any proof that major scholars consider this hadith to be authentic. And thirdly, you are the one who is always criticising usoolis, and then goes running to fatwas from marjas when it comes to defending your precious tatbir. Everything you are saying here could be turned back on you with even more force, since tatbir is an issue of fiqh.

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But the long version for ages narrated, transmitted throughout the ages in mosques, masjids, madrassas, home and so forth is not reliable, because why?

If it is so authentic, why when it came time to put it on paper, was the chain fabricated? I think you are letting your obvious hatred for Nader Zaveri blind you, all he has done is present the evidence as it is, and you respond with irrelevant stuff like he can't speak arabic, although i'm not sure on what you are basing that. How reliable do you think an oral tradition that spans a thousand years would be? Why was it not included in mafatih? Next your gonna be telling le the the poem nade ali is 100 % authentic?

You don't seem to realise that Imam Ali عليه السلام, as well as other Imams told their followers to write things down, and there is a very rich tradition is shi'a islam about writing things down in order to preserve them, this oral tradtion when it comes to hadith is more of sunni thing, and look at the mess that got them in, their books are full of fabrications and important omissions. Books were writen then shown to the Imam for verification, even if this du'a does go back to those days, the fact that it didn't make it into any of those books for confirmation would probably tell us it isn't authentic, and was probably spread by the ghullats, if of course it goes back that far, which I would guess it doesn't. The Imams even had books that they inherited from each other, and referred to in certain matters, and they by all accounts had excelent memories so why the need to write these things down?

Here are some ahadith that speak of it

Zurarah has narrated, "I asked Imam Muhammad al-Baqir about the inheritance of a grand father and said, 'I have not seen any body speak about it but that is based on personal opinions except Amirul Mu'minin Ali (a.s).' I asked, "What has he said in this matter?" The Imam replied, "Come tomorrow so I can read it for you from the book." I then requested, "Please say it to me in the form of Hadith because your Hadith is better for me than books." "Do what I asked you to do, said the Imam (a.s). "Come tomorrow and I will read for you from the book." Zurarah has said, "I visited the Imam next day in the afternoon. Ja'far ibn Muhammad the son of the Imam (a.s) came to me and the Imam asked him to read for me from the book."

Fru' al-Kafi vol. 7 P 94

Imam Sadiq (a) is reported to have said "Preserve your books; one day you will need them." Also he has said, " A proper support for the heart and memory is writing."

Behar al-Anwar vol. 2 P 152

Sayrafi narrates, "I with Hakam ibn 'uyaynah were in the presence of Imam Muhammad al-Baqir (a.s) and he asked questions from the Imam (a.s) and the Imam (a.s) paid particular attention to him. Hakam and I had a disagreement on some issues and the Imam asked his son, "Please bring me that big book. He opened the book and turned several leaves until he found the answer and said, "This is the hand writing of Ali (a.s) and the dictation of the holy Prophet (s.a)."

Rijal of Najashi P 255

There are many more

Further more, how often is this really recited in the masjid? People here are making out there is a special day set aside for it like du'a kumeil, when in fact it is only on very rare occasions that it is recited, when was the last time you heard it recited? Because i honestly can't recall the last time i heard it in a masjid.

Edited by Ali_Hussain
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^^^^ Talking about written and wills. Why didn't the Prophet make a will to imam Ali to be his successor?

Why he waited, until such time that he could be accused of being delirious?

As far as Nader Zaveri is concerned, he is not an alim. And, you can ask him about his knowledge of Arabic language.

He is any Tom, Richard and Harry who is not qualified to grade hadiths and give online fatwas.

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^^^^ Talking about written and wills. Why didn't the Prophet make a will to imam Ali to be his successor?

Why he waited, until such time that he could be accused of being delirious?

As far as Nader Zaveri is concerned, he is not an alim. And, you can ask him about his knowledge of Arabic language.

He is any Tom, Richard and Harry who is not qualified to grade hadiths and give online fatwas.

For someone who is always talking about the Arabic knowledge of others, you never actually seem to actually correct their translations. Is it because you aren't capable yourself, or because you can't actually find any mistakes worth mentioning?

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For someone who is always talking about the Arabic knowledge of others, you never actually seem to actually correct their translations. Is it because you aren't capable yourself, or because you can't actually find any mistakes worth mentioning?

No, I have never mentioned that I have Arabic knowledge and that I am capable to translate the Holy Quran and/or hadiths of Prophet and Imams. What I have claimed is that I am an Arab. The three major translators of the Holy Quran in English language are Yousuf Ali, Picktall and Mohammad Asad, and all these three are non-Arabs.

Imagine, trying to translate a Quranic verse which has seven meanings. Or, to translate a hadith which might have up to seven meanings too.

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No, I have never mentioned that I have Arabic knowledge and that I am capable to translate the Holy Quran and/or hadiths of Prophet and Imams. What I have claimed is that I am an Arab. The three major translators of the Holy Quran in English language are Yousuf Ali, Picktall and Mohammad Asad, and all these three are non-Arabs.

Sounds like you are not capable of deciding how good a job they are doing in the translating, maybe it would be better not to say anything. I don't really see what being an Arab has to do with anything. Many of the greatest scholars of both Shia and Sunni schools of thought have been non-Arabs. In any case, since a translation necessitates having knowledge of two languages, you could always argue that a translation is unreliable because the person's knowledge of English wasn't good enough to properly convey the meaning of the Arabic.

Imagine, trying to translate a Quranic verse which has seven meanings. Or, to translate a hadith which might have up to seven meanings too.

This idea of yours that a hadith can have up to seven meaning seems to me to be pure conjecture, unless you have something to back it up with.

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Sounds like you are not capable of deciding how good a job they are doing in the translating, maybe it would be better not to say anything. I don't really see what being an Arab has to do with anything. Many of the greatest scholars of both Shia and Sunni schools of thought have been non-Arabs. In any case, since a translation necessitates having knowledge of two languages, you could always argue that a translation is unreliable because the person's knowledge of English wasn't good enough to properly convey the meaning of the Arabic.

There are lots of Arabs with excellent command of both Arabic and English languages.

Like I said, you always argue for argument sake.

The Lebanese Shia Arabs have excellent command of three major languages, which are Arabic, English and French.

The Sudanese Arabs are one of the best translators of Arabic and English languages.

Edited by aladdin
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thank you brother this is the point i kept trying to say

Salam brother,

Are we saying that the long version has never been written down or put into printing.

Here is one site out of many sites that have the long version in writing.

http://www.duas.org/hadis-e-kisa.htm

Or we are saying that there is no sanad for it. That we don't have sanad, like a typical hadith that A heard it and passed it down to B, who passed it down to C.....

And, that the above sanad is not written down.

The sanad is for long version is there, from day one, being recited in homes, in majlisis and at schools.

If we didn't hear it then who made it up. How come for centuries it is recited in homes, in majlisis, at school, country after country, town after town, home after home. All these millions and millions of Shia have been duped throughout the centuries.

Then we must be not very learned, we must be sheep and goats, and sheep and goat don't need education let alone writing.

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I wonder the following from the first sermon of Najul Balagha is allegorical or literal?

Allah collected from hard, soft, sweet and sour earth, clay which He dripped in water till it got pure, and kneaded it with moisture till it became gluey. From it He carved an image with curves, joints, limbs and segments. He solidified it till it dried up for a fixed time and a known duration. Then He blew into it out of His Spirit whereupon it took the pattern of a human being with mind that governs him, intelligence which he makes use of, limbs that serve him, organs that change his position, sagacity that differentiates between truth and untruth, tastes and smells, colours and species. He is a mixture of clays of different colours, cohesive materials, divergent contradictories and differing properties like heat, cold, softness and hardness.

The literal part of the long version of hadith al-Kisa:

"O Allah, these are the people of my Household (Ahlul-Bayt). They are my confidants and my supporters.

Their flesh is my flesh and their blood is my blood.

Whoever hurts them, hurts me too.

Whoever displeases them, displeased me too.

I am at war with those at war with them.

I am at peace with those at peace with them.

I am the enemies of their enemies and

I am the friend of their friends.

They are from me and I am from them.

O Allah! Bestow Your Blessings, Benevolence, Forgiveness and Your pleasure upon me

and upon them. And remove impurity from them and keep them thoroughly pure"

Allah's answer to the Prophet's Prayer, and describing in allegorical terms His love for the five under the cloak :

Then the Lord, Almighty Allah said :

"O My angels! O Residents of My Heavens, verily, I have not created the erected Sky, the stretched earth, the illuminated moon, the bright sun, the rotating planets, the flowing seas and the sailing ships, but for the love of these Five lying underneath the cloak"

Then the Prophet's and Imam Ali's literal answer for the lovers of Ahlulbayt:

Then Ali said to my father: "O Prophet of Allah, tell me: What significance has Allah reserved from His grace for this gathering of ours under this cloak?"

The Prophet replied: "I swear by He who rightfully appointed me a Prophet and selected me with prophethood as a saviour: this episode of ours will not be recounted in any gathering from the gatherings of the people of the earth where a group of our shias and lovers are present except that there will descend upon them mercy! And angels will encircle them asking Allah the remission of their sins until the assembly disperses!"

So Ali said: "In that case, We have attained success, and our Shias have attained success, by the Lord of the Ka'bah!"

Edited by aladdin
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The Wahhabi dilemma :

God tells us in the Holy Quran, that His two hands are open.

According to the Wahhabi, Allah has two literal hands.

According to the Shia, the verse is allegorical and it means, Allah is the most generous.

So, which type of mind frame do we have, the Wahhabi all times literal mind frame or the Shia literal and allegorical mind frame like an educated person.

So, what is wrong the long version. How does it differs from the short version.

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Well, at least we agree that Hadeeth Kisa' is authentic. Now i know why sunni's don't believe it -_-

How do you expect them to believe in something that isn't in their books (and is barely in ours)? The short version is in their books, and that is what they need to take on board (but they don't).

He is talking about shias who are sunnis, get the sarcasm.

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How can a Shia be a Sunni? That doesn't make sense. What are the beliefs that allow you to recognise such people?

I don't profess the knowledge of English language, just like the Arabic language, but here is the definition of sarcasm from the dictionary:

"Witty language used to convey insults or scorn, esp. saying one thing but implying the opposite".

Maybe, you should take some lesson in English language.

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Well the Quran says Abraham was a role-model for muslims and he employed sarcasm when his fellow countrymen desperately sought the one who smashed their idols. This was after his relentless preachings and reasoning, when he lost hope of them being guided and when their hearts were sealed.

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Well the Quran says Abraham was a role-model for muslims and he employed sarcasm when his fellow countrymen desperately sought the one who smashed their idols. This was after his relentless preachings and reasoning, when he lost hope of them being guided and when their hearts were sealed.

Lol. Simply love it. A good Islamic and Quranic definition of sarcasm. :yaali:

Though, it might be well beyond the literalistic heads.

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