Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله

Why Don't Sunnis Believe In Hadeeth Kisa' ?

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

  • Advanced Member

What I don't quite understand is why this is such a big deal. What is so important about the long hadith compared to the short one that it makes all the difference whether or not it is authentic?

Becasue we are in the business of:

Reviving Al-Islaam by the Qur'aan and Sunnah

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 103
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

They Do believe in it just they imply different implications they also believe that the prophet raised Alis hand and said : whoever i was his mawla now ali is his mawla but once again they give it a d

Maybe because..... Question: Concerning your answer about Hadith Al-Kisaa, you said that it is not authentic in its details … while, this Hadith is being narrated in some countries before every Husain

the details are the additions liek what you find i the book of " Alawalim" but the actual event is not disputed. its details like god created all the creation only for the love of the five and alwyl

NOTE TO MOD: please modify the title thread to "Why Don't Shias Believe in Hadeeth Kisa'?" Thanks. -_-

@Haider - Because the long narration includes the details of what actually happened under the cloak, the short narration is merely referential. Thats the difference. On what grounds do you claim that there are 'questions' surrounding it? Is it definitely not authentic or are you just merely conjecturing that it might not be?

I'm guessing the biggest problem for you is that the narration states that this whole universe was created for the sake of the 5 pure ones under the cloak, am i right? I see no problem with it, whatsoever. In fact, i'm pretty sure there are other hadeeth that proves this fact.

Lets just say, for arguements sake, the narration of Hadeeth al Kisa' is fabricated. How else would we know what happened under the cloak? The fact is, this is the only narration we have concerning this event.

Link to post
Share on other sites

the version in " alawalim" which is constantly repeated by the ignorant masses and by the mughaleen is the one that is not authentic .

you dont need to look at the chain to know that its not authentic. anything that involves shirk in its contents is unauthentic for Usooli people even if its chain was the strongest.

that god created all the creation just for the love of the five? trying to turn them into some sort of mini gods like the idea of jesus christ.

Link to post
Share on other sites

that god created all the creation just for the love of the five?

It seems to me most shias believe in that, so let's say those five didn't exist, then the rest of the Imams and Prophets are not enough of a reason to create the universe, he would not have create the universe...Imam Mahdi is also not a good enough reason...all good humans are not good enough reasons..Prophets are not good enough reasons...

You would think people think logically about this but they don't. They believe in it and recite the hadithal Kisaa long version as if it's truth and made it into something sacred.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
The hadith al-Kisa was narrated and recited in umpteen Shia homes, in majilis and in Shia gatherings. It is like the transmission of the Holy Quran, which is narrated and recited in umpteen Muslims homes, in majilis and in Muslims gatherings.

You are obviously clueless of how Science of Hadith works.

And

What Abbas Al-Qummi says or some guy named Alladin on Shiachat? :wacko:

Lets just say, for arguements sake, the narration of Hadeeth al Kisa' is fabricated. How else would we know what happened under the cloak? The fact is, this is the only narration we have concerning this event.

It's irrelevant what happened under the cloak, source is weak. Why are you so obsessed with a Hadith that's declared weak? There are thousands of weak traditions, is it logical to obsess over them? :wacko:

Edited by Ugly Jinn
Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh...my...God.

I can't believe it. This thread completely backfired.

Shias think that Hadeeth Kisa' is fake and that this universe was not created out of love of the Holy Five. :0

@ali - I completely disagree with you. The fact that you think we are turning the Holy Five into "some sort of mini Gods" just shows how distorted your concept is.

Haven't you noticed in the Quran that God calls the Holy Prophet "Mercy to the universe"? But I thought only God is a Mercy to the Universe and Mankind? This is what you would probably think, but its due to your misunderstanding. Yes, God is merciful but the Holy Five are the means to attaining the mercy of God.

In the Quran, it says God gives to whom he wills and God has given such privilege to the person He loves the most. The Holy Prophet has, many a time, equated His status with the Holy 4, for example "Hussein is from me and I am from Hussein". Hence, the Holy 4 equally share the high status and privilege of the Holy Prophet. The fact that God gave the Holy Prophet the title of "Mercy to the UNIVERSE", which would seem more appropriate for God, just goes to show that God really did create this universe out of His love and passion for the Holy Five (as).

Do you understand now?

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

^ Its like when the Imams were asked about the face of Allah, and they said "we are the face of Allah." They also explained that "the face of Allah is that aspect of Allah's relation with people through which they establish belief with him"

Edited by JimJam
Link to post
Share on other sites

(salam)

ALL the sunnis I know believe in the incident of ahlul kisaa :donno: Question is, despite believing in the lofty status of the ahlulbayt (as) , do they follow them, or is khilafah (political authority) unrelated to being the best, most qualified, most beloved to Allah, most pious? I think we all know the answer to that one.

(wasalam)

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

@Haider - Because the long narration includes the details of what actually happened under the cloak, the short narration is merely referential. Thats the difference. On what grounds do you claim that there are 'questions' surrounding it? Is it definitely not authentic or are you just merely conjecturing that it might not be?

I'm saying that I am not qualified to say for sure one way or the other, but the arguments that I have read seem more convincing in the direction of it not being authentic. For example the fact that it is not found in any of the major Shia books seems very odd to me, to say the least.

I'm guessing the biggest problem for you is that the narration states that this whole universe was created for the sake of the 5 pure ones under the cloak, am i right? I see no problem with it, whatsoever. In fact, i'm pretty sure there are other hadeeth that proves this fact.

No, this doesn't really bother me at all. I might be bothered by the way some people interpret it, but not the statement in itself.

Lets just say, for arguements sake, the narration of Hadeeth al Kisa' is fabricated. How else would we know what happened under the cloak? The fact is, this is the only narration we have concerning this event.

Who said anything happened under the cloak? It doesn't really bother me one way or the other. If this stuff can be proven to be authentic, then all well and good, but it it can't then I'm not going to be losing any sleep over it. What is important to me is that the five were under the cloak and verse 33:33 was revealed about them.

Link to post
Share on other sites

salaam

this hadeeth is there to enforce the belief in the wylayah al takwynyah and that the imams are all hearing and all seeing and they judge the humanity and they are the face of god and they control every atom in the creation so on

I ask a simple question who is saydat nisaa al 3alameen according to the quran?

maryam or no ?

so can we say maryam has less value than fatimat alzahra?

okay then how come she is not part of the five ? and how come maryam plus all the prophets plus all the other creations who also have prophets plus the animals plus the jins plus everyone else have no value ?

the same people who go around reciting this hadeeth also recite another famous hadeeth

oh Mohammad if not for you i wouldn't have created the orbit and if not for Ali i wouldn't have created you and if not for Fatima I wouldn't have created any of you !!!!!

so sayda fatima is the highest of all and is the secret of the whole creation.

then these confused people later get into alot of trouble trying to compare who is better like the way the devil compares who is better

is imam mahdi better or imam hasan ?

is sajad better or fatima

and they wrote books and books and they went into debates and wars over who is better ,.,

what about the verse that orders the momeneen to say : "say we do not differentiate between his messengers" sourat al baqara

if we say the prophet is the best and all the universe was just for him isn't that going directly against the quraan and differentiating between the messengers ?

the meaning of differentiation is to regard one thing higher or lower than the other therefore in mathematics the differentiation is to subtract or find the differences

in arabic its called :

تفاضل

so to believe that all the universe which will include 10s of thousands of prophets and messengers are nothing compared to these five is to blatantly differentiate between god's messengers in a direct opposition to the verse in sourat al baqara

we are not even allowed to say adam is better than mohamad or mohamad is better than adam or any messenger is better than any other messenger in the eyes of god. We can not say that because that would be differentiation and that would be the same as the act of iblees when he compared and said " i am better"

we must believe in integration not differentiation

تكامل لا تفاضل

so in addition to contradicting the order of the quraan which says " we do not differentiate between his messnegers" by saying these five are better than 100s of thousands of messengers put together we are setting up the base for making them into mini gods like the idea of Christianity

we are setting the foundation for ghulu (extremism in love)

in nahjul balagha imam ali says tha the prophet told him:

oh Ali two types will be destroyed because of you, an extreme hater and an extreme lover

so now we know who the extreme haters are those who support his enemies and ignore his followers and praise his killers and his rivals but who are the extreme lovers who will also be destroyed you tell me ?

if you justify being mad and extreme in the love for ahlulbait and remember them more than you remember Allah then arnt you them?

also rememeber the word of the prophet when he said:

the jews of my nation and the chrstians of my nation...

the chrisitans did not start by saying jesus is god

first thing is by saying he is special

then they started attributing decriptions which are exclusive to god to him like he is all hearing he is all seeing

he knows the unseen because god gave him that

he has wylayah takwynyah

and they kept going in this direction until they reached what you see today where they blatently say that he us GOD and or part of God

salaam

Edited by alimohamad40
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

salaam

this hadeeth is there to enforce the belief in the wylayah al takwynyah and that the imams are all hearing and all seeing and they judge the humanity and they are the face of god and they control every atom in the creation so on

I ask a simple question who is saydat nisaa al 3alameen according to the quran?

maryam or no ?

so can we say maryam has less value than fatimat alzahra?

okay then how come she is not part of the five ? and how come maryam plus all the prophets plus all the other creations who also have prophets plus the animals plus the jins plus everyone else have no value ?

the same people who go around reciting this hadeeth also recite another famous hadeeth

oh Mohammad if not for you i wouldn't have created the orbit and if not for Ali i wouldn't have created you and if not for Fatima I wouldn't have created any of you !!!!!

so sayda fatima is the highest of all and is the secret of the whole creation.

then these confused people later get into alot of trouble trying to compare who is better like the way the devil compares who is better

is imam mahdi better or imam hasan ?

is sajad better or fatima

and they wrote books and books and they went into debates and wars over who is better ,.,

what about the verse that orders the momeneen to say : "say we do not differentiate between his messengers"

if we say the prophet is the best and all the universe was just for him isn't that going directly against the quraan and differentiating between the messengers ?

the meaning of differentiation is to regard one thing higher or lower than the other therefore in mathematics the differentiation is to subtract or find the differences

in arabic its called : تفاضل

I don't really disagree with your general point, but aren't there ahadith saying Fatima (as) the leader of all the women of Paradise and Muhammad (pbuh) is the best of creation and the greatest Messenger of Allah?

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

(salam)

(bismillah)

is imam mahdi better or imam hasan ?

is sajad better or fatima

and they wrote books and books and they went into debates and wars over who is better ,.,

what about the verse that orders the momeneen to say : "say we do not differentiate between his messengers"

if we say the prophet is the best and all the universe was just for him isn't that going directly against the quraan and differentiating between the messengers ?

the meaning of differentiation is to regard one thing higher or lower than the other therefore in mathematics the differentiation is to subtract or find the differences

in arabic its called : تفاضل

I agree with you that this hadeeth al-kisaa', the oft-repeated du`aa, is not attributed to our Ahl al-Bayt, but you have grossly misinterpreted this verse.

When Allaah (SWT) says "we do not differentiate between any of His messengers" it is in regards to the message they sent, not in terms of faDaa'il. Because even Allaah (SWT) differentiates between the Prophets, calling some Nabi and some Rasool (look at 19:40-60). Not only that, he also makes a differentiation and called 5 prophets as ulul `azm (go to 46:35).

We have SaHeeH (Authentic) hadeeth specifically making differentiation between the A'immah for example (i.e. Imaam `Alee > other A'immah). No doubt, I am not a fan of getting into the argument of are the A'immah are better than the Anbiyaa'. My stance on that is to do tawaqquf (desist) from taking a position, just like al-Toosi did.

But, differentiation have been made throughout the Qur'aan and aHaadeeth between the Prophets.

(salam)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Salaam

I don't really disagree with your general point, but aren't there ahadith saying Fatima (as) the leader of all the women of Paradise

teh quran says maryam is also the leader of the women of the worlds

the verse says :

ان الله اصطفاك و طهرك و اصطفاك على نساء العالمين

god has made you pure and chosen you over the women of the worlds

I don't have a problem that both sayda zahra and maryam are the masters of the women because I don't have a hierarchy system and I follow the advice of the verse to not differentiate between the messengers

the quran says maryam and hadeeths say Fatima so whats the harm if its both of them ?

I also don't differentiate between imam Ali and the prophet or any other messenger

( i will address brother zaveris point soon inshallah)

and Muhammad (pbuh) is the best of creation and the greatest Messenger of Allah?

This one i have reservations ... this whole idea of best and comparing and that is suspicious.

maybe he is the best in the eyes of god and maybe not it will make no difference

this is a knowledge that lacking it is harmless and having it is also harmless but what i know for sure is that god does not want us to dwell in the comparisons as iblees did..

many people say prophet mohamad is the best prophet from a selfish drive... like a racist who wants to say his country is the best... a self centered also tries to prove that his prophet is the best of prophets .....

I am very afraid of this sort of attitude because there is no proof that we need to know such knowledge

for me to know who is better in the eyes of god prophet Mohammad or imam Ali or prophet abraham ??? how can i do that?

i need the knowledge of god to do that because i need to know every second of their holy life and who was more closer and suffered more and etc ????

why do I dwell in this when god said that the momeneen should say "we do not differentiate between his messengers"

(salam)

(bismillah)

I agree with you that this hadeeth al-kisaa', the oft-repeated du`aa, is not attributed to our Ahl al-Bayt, but you have grossly misinterpreted this verse.

When Allaah (SWT) says "we do not differentiate between any of His messengers" it is in regards to the message they sent, not in terms of faDaa'il. Because even Allaah (SWT) differentiates between the Prophets, calling some Nabi and some Rasool (look at 19:40-60). Not only that, he also makes a differentiation and called 5 prophets as ulul `azm (go to 46:35).

brother the verse is not saying God does not differentiate . It say momeneen should not differentiate

the verse is at the end of sourat al baqarah

of course god does differentiate because he has the knowledge and the right to differentiate but we do not

We have SaHeeH (Authentic) hadeeth specifically making differentiation between the A'immah for example (i.e. Imaam `Alee > other A'immah). No doubt, I am not a fan of getting into the argument of are the A'immah are better than the Anbiyaa'. My stance on that is to do tawaqquf (desist) from taking a position, just like al-Toosi did.

the hadeeths that try to differentiate are very contradictory to each other that's why we had people dwelling in this and they got lost

some said

mohamad

ali

hussain

hassan

mahdi

fatima

some put fatima before the hasanain

some put mahdi back

some put them before the prophets

some after

why all this mess when Allah says : "Do not differentiate" its not your job its my job?

i mean we have to differentiate between good and evil not between very good and very good

I wouldn't be surprised if some imams came out to be higher or lower than the prophets I mean all muslims say that imam mahdi wil lead Issa so whats the big issue if he came out to be better or not better than Issa in the eyes of god?

what we know for sure is that they are both very very good

Is this knowledge of who is better some thing that we have access to or we need to know it or we can learn it ? or god will ask us about it ?

But, differentiation have been made throughout the Qur'aan and aHaadeeth between the Prophets.

yes god differentiates but the momeneen should not differentiate

the verse says

verse 2:136

(muslims) say " we belive in god and what he has revealed to us abd to abraham , ishmael, isaac, and the asbaat and what was revealed to moses and jesus and the prophets from tiher lord . we make no differentiation between any of them and we are submited to him.

verse 2: 285

the messnegers and the belivers have faith in what was revealed to them from thier lord . everyone of them believd in god his angels, his books and his mesengers, saying we do not differentiate between any of his messengers and they said we heard and obeyed lord we need your forgiveness and to you we shal return

Edited by alimohamad40
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

Salaam

Wa alaykum salaam

teh quran says maryam is also the leader of the women of the worlds

the verse says :

ان الله اصطفاك و طهرك و اصطفاك على نساء العالمين

god has made you pure and chosen you over the women of the worlds

Couldn't that just mean she was the best of women up until that point in time?

I don't have a problem that both sayda zahra and maryam are the masters of te women because I don't have a hierarchy system and I follow the advice of the verse to not differentiate between the messengers

the quran says maryam and hadeeths say Fatima so whats the harm if its both of them ?

I also don't differentiate between imam Ali and the prophet or any other messenger

I don't have a problem with this in principle, but if we have some explicit ahadith on the issue, then I'm not sure they can just be ignored.

Like brother Nader, I also refrain from ranking the Imams above the Prophets, or vice-versa, because I don't believe there is any conclusive evidence one way or the other, but in cases where there is evidence, I think it should be followed.

This one i have reservations ... this whole idea of best and comparing and that is suspicious.

maybe he is the best in the eyes of god and maybe not it will make no difference

this is a knowledge that lacking it is harmless and having it is also harmless but what i know for sure is that god does not want us to dwell in the comparisons as iblees did..

Yeah, I don't think this is something we need to spend too much time thinking about.

many people say prophet mohamad is the best prophet from a selfish drive... like a racist who wants to say his country is the best... a self centered also tries to prove that his prophet is the best of prophets .....

I am very afraid of this sort of attitude because there is no proof that we need to know such knowledge

I absolutely agree with you that this is the reason many people make these comparisons, but that doesn't mean that they don't also happen to be right.

for me to know who is better in the eyes of god prophet Mohammad or imam Ali or prophet abraham ??? how can i do that?

i need the knowledge of god to do that because i need to know every second of their holy life and who was more closer and suffered more and etc ????

why do I dwell in this when god said that the momeneen should say "we do not differentiate between his messengers"

Of course it is not for us to decide these things, but in some cases they have been told to us by the Prophet (pbuh) and the Imams (as).

Edited by Haider Husayn
Link to post
Share on other sites

salaam

Haydar:

Couldn't that just mean she was the best of women up until that point in time?

it could be but its saying " over the women of the WORLDS"

what is meant by worlds ? its a very big thing but i am still studying to udnerstand this so i appreciate your inputs

what are the worlds ? is it referring to past and present and future worlds? is it referring to all the human worlds?

but the verse doesn't seem to be limiting that position for maryam and thats why I dont doubt that sayda Fatima can also be the sayda of the females of the worlds

I don't have a problem with this in principle, but if we have some explicit ahadith on the issue, then I'm not sure they can just be ignored.

if we have an explicit hadeeth asking us humans to differentiate between the prophets then we doubt that hadeeth because its goes against the quranic instruction not to differentiate

i mean god doesn't contradict himself, why would he instruct not to differentiate then give out materials that promote differentiation like information about who is better and higher ?

god is consistent and so the information the prophets would give out are consistent with gods instructions not to differentiate

this casts shadow on all those Tafakhur hadeeths where imam Ali and prophet Mohamad boast against each other which of them is better

If your mum is aminah my mum is fatima

if your wife is khadeeja my wife is fatima

and ridiculous talk like this

have you read it ?

Like brother Nader, I also refrain from ranking the Imams above the Prophets, or vice-versa, because I don't believe there is any conclusive evidence one way or the other, but in cases where there is evidence, I think it should be followed.

the quraan evidence which is the strongest in authenticity is saying " Do not differentiate" which I understand it as

" its not your business so don't dwell in this because it will feed your self centered vices"

what if i use Qyas and say :

since Jesus is gonna pray behind the Mahdi then the Mahdi is better than jesus and since jesus is uli al azm then mahdi is better than all the 10s of thousands of non uli alazm prophets ?

its not nice and it falls under differentiation

I absolutely agree with you that this is the reason many people make these comparisons, but that doesn't mean that they don't also happen to be right.

regarding people favoring prophet Mohamad driven by self centric ego to say MY prophet is better in order to elevate their own vicious selves...

yes they can come out to be true at the end of the day but that will not make them sinless

let me give you an example

we had many racists saying the people of this race are better than the other race ( and con incidentally the better race always happens to be the Race that they belong to) so are you surprised that their motive is selfish and a result of the desire to elevate the self like iblees?

I dio ont have a dowbt that tiher motives are self desire because look at it tihs way

here in Australia Lebanese people are saying they are better than the Iraqis because of A , B , C and D

Iraqis are also saying they are better than the Lebanese because of A, B , C and D

of course its a 50 50 and in judgement day god knows when you add up the scores one group would propably get 1% or half % in average better than the other group

will that make any of them right ?

No because they based their information on suspicion and driven by desire ,

they have no statistic

they have no visited every lebanese and made a data base

they dont know what people will do tomorrow

they dont know the secrets of the people

they dont have access to gods data base

so are we supposed to take any of these people seriously ?

i personally tell them none of you is a proper muslim because i a true muslim wouldn't identify himself with a piece of land that Britain and France drew up but a real muslim has the right to all of earth.

so even if they came out to be right they are still wrong initially

Of course it is not for us to decide these things, but in some cases they have been told to us by the Prophet (pbuh) and the Imams

shadows of doubts are cast on any hadeeths that try to differentiate

There are about 120,000 nabis and about 20 rasool.

The verse about "we don't differentiate ....... is about nabis, rasools or both?

Can anyone answer the above?

its about both, the first verse says about prophets and the second says about messengers

the imams of ahlulbait are also messengers arnt they?

they did not bring new message but they reiterate the message of the prophet

so prophet Mohammad is the last prophet but is he the last messenger ?

salaam

Edited by alimohamad40
Link to post
Share on other sites

@alimohamad40 ------ You're totally wrong.

Read this verse in the same chapter:

[Pickthal 2:253] Of those messengers, some of whom We have caused to excel others, and of whom there are some unto whom Allah spake, while some of them He exalted (above others) in degree; and We gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty) and We supported him with the holy Spirit. And if Allah had so wiled it, those who followed after them would not have fought one with another after the clear proofs had come unto them. But they differed, some of them believing and some disbelieving. And if Allah had so willed it, they would not have fought one with another; but Allah doeth what He will.

It clearly states that God has raised some messengers in rank and status over others.

So does this verse contradict verse 253? :

[Pickthal 2:285] The messenger believeth in that which hath been revealed unto him from his Lord and (so do) believers. Each one believeth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers - We make no distinction between any of His messengers - and they say: We hear, and we obey. (Grant us) Thy forgiveness, our Lord. Unto Thee is the journeying.

Of course not. This differentiation refers to the Message, we make no differences in the universal message that Prophets revealed but there are differentiation in rank for the Prophets and Messengers(as).

Please study this verse with reference to the commentary of verse 253 of this surah and verse 55 of Bani Israil.

All the heavenly scriptures are from the creator Lord. There are differences between the prophets but no differentiation. The message is the same: worship Allah, and trust in His all encompassing mercy, as transmitted through His messengers. The true faithful believe in Allah, His messengers, His angels and His books. Please refer to verse 177 of this surah. Islam is a universal religion.

Link to post
Share on other sites

salaam

@alimohamad40 ------ You're totally wrong.

Read this verse in the same chapter:

[Pickthal 2:253] Of those messengers, some of whom We have caused to excel others, and of whom there are some unto whom Allah spake, while some of them He exalted (above others) in degree; and We gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty) and We supported him with the holy Spirit. And if Allah had so wiled it, those who followed after them would not have fought one with another after the clear proofs had come unto them. But they differed, some of them believing and some disbelieving. And if Allah had so willed it, they would not have fought one with another; but Allah doeth what He will.

It clearly states that God has raised some messengers in rank and status over others.

So does this verse contradict verse 253? :

[Pickthal 2:285] The messenger believeth in that which hath been revealed unto him from his Lord and (so do) believers. Each one believeth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers - We make no distinction between any of His messengers - and they say: We hear, and we obey. (Grant us) Thy forgiveness, our Lord. Unto Thee is the journeying.

Of course not. This differentiation refers to the Message, we make no differences in the universal message that Prophets revealed but there are differentiation in rank for the Prophets and Messengers(as).

Please study this verse with reference to the commentary of verse 253 of this surah and verse 55 of Bani Israil.

All the heavenly scriptures are from the creator Lord. There are differences between the prophets but no differentiation. The message is the same: worship Allah, and trust in His all encompassing mercy, as transmitted through His messengers. The true faithful believe in Allah, His messengers, His angels and His books. Please refer to verse 177 of this surah. Islam is a universal religion.

I think you didnt read properly

I said God does differentiate off course he does because he has the knowledge

but the differentiation is prohibited on the momeneen (faithfuls) because the verse that is saying " WE do not differentiate " the "we" refers to the " faithful people"

but the other verse that says "we raised some above the others" the WE refers to god almighty.

just read the versus carefully inshallah

Link to post
Share on other sites

Alimohamad40 --- I don't think you're understanding, properly. Let me make it simple:

When the faithful proclaim " WE do not differentiate " , it is reffering to the universal MESSAGE that they revealed! If the faithfuls are reffering to the "messengers", then this would outrightly contradict verse 2:253 where God tells US that he is raised and excelled messengers over others. The verse then goes on to state the different heights of privileges each messenger possessed.

Now, tell me ... Which messenger recieved the privilege of PHYSICAL ASCENSION? Only Prophet Muhammad (sawa) ! No other messenger has recieved a privilege better than this!

UNDERSTAND?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Alimohamad40 --- I don't think you're understanding, properly. Let me make it simple:

When the faithful proclaim " WE do not differentiate " , it is reffering to the universal MESSAGE that they revealed! If the faithfuls are reffering to the "messengers", then this would outrightly contradict verse 2:253 where God tells US that he is raised and excelled messengers over others. The verse then goes on to state the different heights of privileges each messenger possessed.

Now, tell me ... Which messenger recieved the privilege of PHYSICAL ASCENSION? Only Prophet Muhammad (sawa) ! No other messenger has recieved a privilege better than this!

UNDERSTAND?

it doesnt contradict verse 2:253 because once again you didnt read carefully

the verse that talks about differentiation is saying WE raised some prophets above others and WE gave isaa the bayynat

in this verse the WE is god

conclusions god Does differentiate

in the other two versus that I mentioned its totally different and its instructing the believers not to differentiate because the word WE in these versus is referring to the believers conclusion that believers are PROHIBITED from differentiation

God differentiating = okay

humans differentiating= Haraam

therefore

no contradiction between the two versus

plz read carefully

verse 2:136

(muslims) say " we belive in god and what he has revealed to us abd to abraham , ishmael, isaac, and the asbaat and what was revealed to moses and jesus and the prophets from tiher lord . we make no differentiation between any of them and we are submited to him.

verse 2: 285

the messnegers and the belivers have faith in what was revealed to them from thier lord . everyone of them believd in god his angels, his books and his mesengers, saying we do not differentiate between any of his messengers and they said we heard and obeyed lord we need your forgiveness and to you we shal return

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Basic Members

"We do not differentiate" refers to beliefs not actions/experiences, just as "there is no compulsion in religion" refers to beliefs, not actions/experiences. All Prophets had the same beliefs, which is why we do not differentiate between any of the Prophets, but each Prophet had different struggles.

Just as the Quran advises Muslims not to criticize (differentiate) the beliefs of others, in case they criticize Allah (SWT) in return, "we do not differentiate" the single belief that all Prophet's shared.

Prophet Muhammad (SAW) may have been stated to be the greatest of the Prophets by Allah (SWT) because of the greater struggles he faced throughout his life compared to other Prophet's and their respective struggles. The same can be applied to the Holy Women.

Both of the the below verses that brother alimo40 stated refer to "belief" -->

Verse 2:136

"We have believed in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Tribes and what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are in submission to Him."

Verse 2: 285

The Messenger believes in what has been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believes

in Allah, His angels, His books, and His messengers. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His messengers." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the return."

So, all the Prophet's had the same belief. Does this mean their station with Allah (SWT) was the same? No.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Banned

what we need to do right, is simply reject any hadith at all that praises or mentions any of the good points of the masumeen. any hadith that linger must be exposed and rejected immediately.

what we need to do is to reject any and all sources which are not the quran or pious salaf.

we must destroy this shirk and bida over excessive praise of normal every day sinners like the masumeen. after all, they can not help us in this life or the next.

that is the true islam.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

Maula Dha Mallang, can't you make your point without misrepresenting those who you are attacking? Doubting that a certain conversations took place based on lack of sufficient evidence doesn't imply denying that the Masumeen (as) are sinless, or denying that they can give us intercession, or outright denying the wilayah of the Imams (as).

Your approach the religion seems entirely based on following the beliefs and practices of those who have come before you, and never asking any questions. Or if you do ask any questions, it doesn't take much to satisfy you. Some people like to have solid evidence before deciding to believe in something, and don't favour the 'blind-faith' approach to religion.

I wonder if you were born into a different religion, whether you would have been able to find your way to Islam with your attitude?

Edited by Haider Husayn
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

what we need to do right, is simply reject any hadith at all that praises or mentions any of the good points of the masumeen. any hadith that linger must be exposed and rejected immediately.

what we need to do is to reject any and all sources which are not the quran or pious salaf.

we must destroy this shirk and bida over excessive praise of normal every day sinners like the masumeen. after all, they can not help us in this life or the next.

that is the true islam.

Ya Ali Madad,

Love it o' my friend Malang!

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
what we need to do right, is simply reject any hadith at all that praises or mentions any of the good points of the masumeen. any hadith that linger must be exposed and rejected immediately.

"what we need to do right, is simply accept any hadith at all that praises or mentions any of the good points of the masumeen. any hadith that linger must be exposed and accepted immediately."

Hadeeth al Kisaa' is authentic, until proven otherwise. Furthermore, it's narrated through Jabir ibn Abdillah al ansari who was a trustworthy person. Case Closed.

It's already been proven with references, even with a scholar that you used as reference in other threads (Qummi). You are obviously in denial and/or are blinded by your emotions.

Edited by Ugly Jinn
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

Prophet Muhammad (sawa) and his AhlulBayt (as) are superior to all the Prophets and Messengers. Case Closed.

Hadeeth al Kisaa' is authentic, until proven otherwise. Furthermore, it's narrated through Jabir ibn Abdillah al ansari who was a trustworthy person. Case Closed.

How come you are so full of certainty on this issue, yet so full of doubts on more fundamental issues such as the justice of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì?

And for someone who asks so many questions, you come across as a little intolerant of other people's ones.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

(salam)

Differentiation mentioned in verse 2:136, 2:185 is regarding the belief not regarding the rank.

We make no difference between any of His messengers; 2:285

Means we do not believe in some and disbelieve in others(we believe in all) as is explained in the following verse.

[shakir 4:150] Surely those who disbelieve in Allah and His messengers and (those who) desire to make a distinction between Allah and His messengers and say: We believe in some and disbelieve in others, and desire to take a course between (this and) that.

[shakir 4:151] These it is that are truly unbelievers, and We have prepared for the unbelievers a disgraceful chastisement.

People who believe in Allah subhanhu and disbelieve in his messengers are making distinction between Allah and His messengers.

That is the true meaning of “making distinction”

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...