Why Isn't 'angels' Part Of Usool Ad-deen?

[Ugly Jinn]

002.285 The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His messengers. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His messengers." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."

Al-Qur'an, 002.285 (Al-Baqara [The Cow])

Why isn't 'Angels' part of Roots of Religion (Usool Ad-Deen) when this verse clearly states it?

[aladdin]

The verse doesn't clearly mention it as usul ad-din. Not every belief in Quran is usul ad-din, but the belief is in Quran, therefore we believe in it. We Shia believe in angels but it is not our usul ad-din.

The Sunni have Predestination as usul ad-din but it is not in the Quran and Predestination is a very debatable issue, where is angels are not.

We Shia believe that angels used to visit the Prophet all the times, but it doesn't make it our usul ad-din, neither the above verse says that it is usul ad-din.

[Ugly Jinn]

The verse doesn't clearly mention it as usul ad-din. Not every belief in Quran is usul ad-din, but the belief is in Quran, therefore we believe in it. We Shia believe in angels but it is not our usul ad-din.

The Sunni have Predestination as usul ad-din but it is not in the Quran and Predestination is a very debatable issue, where is angels are not.

We Shia believe that angels used to visit the Prophet all the times, but it doesn't make it our usul ad-din, neither the above verse says that it is usul ad-din.

1) The verse clearly states "men of faith.....each one believes in....Angels". Clearly stating 'men of faith' believe in Angels, hence a prerequisite.

2) Also the verse clearly puts 'Angels' with Allah, Messengers, Scriptures, hence equally important.

[aladdin]

1) The verse clearly states "men of faith.....each one believes in....Angels". Clearly stating 'men of faith' believe in Angels, hence a prerequisite.

2) Also the verse clearly puts 'Angels' with Allah, Messengers, Scriptures, hence equally important.

You are Shia, do you believe in angels?

[haideriam]

1) The verse clearly states "men of faith.....each one believes in....Angels". Clearly stating 'men of faith' believe in Angels, hence a prerequisite.

2) Also the verse clearly puts 'Angels' with Allah, Messengers, Scriptures, hence equally important.

(bismillah)

(salam)

don't see the word wajib sorry usool in there, sorry

(wasalam)

Edited September 13, 2011 by haideriam

[Ugly Jinn]

You are Shia, do you believe in angels?

I believe in Angels.... ^_^

don't see the word wajib sorry usool in there, sorry

I'll bite even though it clearly says "Men of faith believe".

Can you show me where it says 'wajib' for the 5 Shia Usool Ad-Deen in the Quran? Remember I want to see the word wajib just like you mentioned. :lol:

PS. You just screwed yourself with that statement :lol:

[aladdin]

I believe in Angels.... ^_^

I'll bite even though it clearly says "Men of faith believe".

Can you show me where it says 'wajib' for the 5 Shia Usool Ad-Deen in the Quran? Remember I want to see the word wajib just like you mentioned. :lol:

PS. You just screwed yourself with that statement :lol:

No, he didn't srcew himslef.

Show, me where it says, wajib or usul ad-adin in Quran about the Sunnis usul ad-din.

It seems like you screwed yourself as you are constantly screwing yourself by questioning if Imam Hassan (as) married more than four wives simultaneously.

The question is are you a Muslim let alone a Shia?

[Waiting for HIM]

Usul-ud-din is not about personalities or places. There are no names in usool-ud-din. Usool-ud-din is about concepts.

Tawheed - the unity, the Ahad of a creator

Nabuwat - the institution of Hidaya transcending from the Creator which includes the revelations (wahih), the revealed (Al-Quran), the one were revealed to (Prophet(pbuh)

Imamat - the institution of Protecting the Hidaya and Showing the receviers of the message "How To i.e. Ahkam" of the "Manual i.e Quran)

Maad - the institution of life after death, the resurrection, the questions, the answer, the whole concept of "ruh" that is eternal and never dies, the "nafs" which is a reflection of "ruh" and based on how the "body" behaved in the world, if "nafs" joins the "ruh"

Adl - the divine institution of balance, proportion, the justice, the propriety, the limit of each and everything except the Creator.

The above is divided into five parts so as to make distinction for us between "Creator" and "Created" but if you go back to reality of all that is "Created", it still merges back into its reality "Creator". Which was the case when there was "Nothing" other than "Creator" and when there will be "Nothing" other than "Creator". We are living in the duration between the two.

All other beliefs - whole belief systems that is in Quran,

names of personalities -Muhammad (pbuh), Ali (as), Jibreel (as),

names of places Heavens, Hells, Eatrh, Universe, Makkah, Kaa'ba

and much much more, all of it emanates from the knowledge Allah gave to Humanity through/from/by all of the above is inclusive of all this.

Edited September 13, 2011 by Waiting for HIM

[guest 34193]

The so-called five usool ad-deen are simply something scholars eventually came up with to categorize the principle beliefs of the religion, probably in reaction to the Mu`tazila's having done similarly with their own five usool ad-deen. From what I've seen won't find any hadiths that lay it out specifically like that, so as a man-made construct you shouldn't expect it to be perfect and all encompassing.

No doubt though it is necessary for an Imami to believe in their existence. As Shaykh Saduq says in his own summary of the religion:

دين الامامية هو الاقرار بتوحيد الله تعالى ذكره، ونفي التشبيه عنه، وتنزيهه عما لا يليق به، والاقرار بأنبياء الله ورسله وحججه وملائكته وكتبه، والاقرار بأن محمدا (صلى الله عليه وآله) هو سيد الانبياء والمرسلين، وأنه أفضل منهم ومن جميع الملائكة المقربين، وأنه خاتم النبيين، فلا نبي بعده إلى يوم القيامة، وأنجميع الانبياء والرسل والائمة (عليهم السلام) أفضل من الملائكة، وأنهم معصومون مطهرون من كل دنس ورجس، لا يهمون بذنب صغير ولا كبير ولا يرتكبونه، وأنهم أمان لاهل الارض كما أن النجوم أمان لاهل السماء.

The Imami religion is the affirmation of the tawhid of Allah, exalted be His mention, and the negation of similarity (tashbeeh) (i.e. to His creation) for Him, and His exclusion from what is not suitable for Him. And (it is) the affirmation of the prophets of Allah and His messengers and His hujaj and His angels and His books. And the affirmation that Muhammad صلى الله عليه وآله is the master of the prophets, and that he is superior to them and (superior to) all of the angels of proximity, and that he is the seal of the prophets. So there is no prophet after him until the day of the resurrection. And that all of the prophets and the messengers and the Imams عليهمالسلام are superior to the angels. And they are ma`sumeen, purified from every uncleanliness and filth, they do not consider to do neither the minor sin nor the major, nor do they commit it, and they are a safeguard for the people of the Earth as the stars are a safeguard for the people of heaven.

http://www.*******.org/fiqh/summary-of-the-religion---al-amali

[Replicant]

The so-called five usool ad-deen are simply something scholars eventually came up with to categorize the principle beliefs of the religion, probably in reaction to the Mu`tazila's having done similarly with their own five usool ad-deen. From what I've seen won't find any hadiths that lay it out specifically like that, so as a man-made construct you shouldn't expect it to be perfect and all encompassing.

No doubt though it is necessary for an Imami to believe in their existence. As Shaykh Saduq says in his own summary of the religion:

دين الامامية هو الاقرار بتوحيد الله تعالى ذكره، ونفي التشبيه عنه، وتنزيهه عما لا يليق به، والاقرار بأنبياء الله ورسله وحججه وملائكته وكتبه، والاقرار بأن محمدا (صلى الله عليه وآله) هو سيد الانبياء والمرسلين، وأنه أفضل منهم ومن جميع الملائكة المقربين، وأنه خاتم النبيين، فلا نبي بعده إلى يوم القيامة، وأنجميع الانبياء والرسل والائمة (عليهم السلام) أفضل من الملائكة، وأنهم معصومون مطهرون من كل دنس ورجس، لا يهمون بذنب صغير ولا كبير ولا يرتكبونه، وأنهم أمان لاهل الارض كما أن النجوم أمان لاهل السماء.

The Imami religion is the affirmation of the tawhid of Allah, exalted be His mention, and the negation of similarity (tashbeeh) (i.e. to His creation) for Him, and His exclusion from what is not suitable for Him. And (it is) the affirmation of the prophets of Allah and His messengers and His hujaj and His angels and His books. And the affirmation that Muhammad صلى الله عليه وآله is the master of the prophets, and that he is superior to them and (superior to) all of the angels of proximity, and that he is the seal of the prophets. So there is no prophet after him until the day of the resurrection. And that all of the prophets and the messengers and the Imams عليهمالسلام are superior to the angels. And they are ma`sumeen, purified from every uncleanliness and filth, they do not consider to do neither the minor sin nor the major, nor do they commit it, and they are a safeguard for the people of the Earth as the stars are a safeguard for the people of heaven.

http://www.tashayyu....gion---al-amali

That is a pretty beautiful summary.

[Awaiting_for_the12th]

The so-called five usool ad-deen are simply something scholars eventually came up with to categorize the principle beliefs of the religion, probably in reaction to the Mu`tazila's having done similarly with their own five usool ad-deen. From what I've seen won't find any hadiths that lay it out specifically like that, so as a man-made construct you shouldn't expect it to be perfect and all encompassing.

No doubt though it is necessary for an Imami to believe in their existence. As Shaykh Saduq says in his own summary of the religion:

دين الامامية هو الاقرار بتوحيد الله تعالى ذكره، ونفي التشبيه عنه، وتنزيهه عما لا يليق به، والاقرار بأنبياء الله ورسله وحججه وملائكته وكتبه، والاقرار بأن محمدا (صلى الله عليه وآله) هو سيد الانبياء والمرسلين، وأنه أفضل منهم ومن جميع الملائكة المقربين، وأنه خاتم النبيين، فلا نبي بعده إلى يوم القيامة، وأنجميع الانبياء والرسل والائمة (عليهم السلام) أفضل من الملائكة، وأنهم معصومون مطهرون من كل دنس ورجس، لا يهمون بذنب صغير ولا كبير ولا يرتكبونه، وأنهم أمان لاهل الارض كما أن النجوم أمان لاهل السماء.

The Imami religion is the affirmation of the tawhid of Allah, exalted be His mention, and the negation of similarity (tashbeeh) (i.e. to His creation) for Him, and His exclusion from what is not suitable for Him. And (it is) the affirmation of the prophets of Allah and His messengers and His hujaj and His angels and His books. And the affirmation that Muhammad صلى الله عليه وآله is the master of the prophets, and that he is superior to them and (superior to) all of the angels of proximity, and that he is the seal of the prophets. So there is no prophet after him until the day of the resurrection. And that all of the prophets and the messengers and the Imams عليهمالسلام are superior to the angels. And they are ma`sumeen, purified from every uncleanliness and filth, they do not consider to do neither the minor sin nor the major, nor do they commit it, and they are a safeguard for the people of the Earth as the stars are a safeguard for the people of heaven.

http://www.tashayyu....gion---al-amali

pretty much exactly what i was told by an alim

[haideriam]

I believe in Angels.... ^_^

I'll bite even though it clearly says "Men of faith believe".

Can you show me where it says 'wajib' for the 5 Shia Usool Ad-Deen in the Quran? Remember I want to see the word wajib just like you mentioned. :lol:

PS. You just screwed yourself with that statement :lol:

(bismillah)

(salam)

uj, please don't try to live up to your nick

i hope you know this is a religious forum and not a street brawl

kindly refrain from street language

now to the topic

kindly only bite what you can chew

read the topic of the thread

and be the literalist that you are elsewhere

and the confused you are else where

simaltaneous 4 wives

potential imamate candidate

etc

sorry, i can see you are still confused.

so try and stick to the thread topic rather than other things.

religious forums within ourselves are not about hard debating, a skill picked up from trash sites,

but honest discussion.

hope you get it this time.

(wasalam)

[Ugly Jinn]

No, he didn't srcew himslef.

Show, me where it says, wajib or usul ad-adin in Quran about the Sunnis usul ad-din.

It seems like you screwed yourself as you are constantly screwing yourself by questioning if Imam Hassan (as) married more than four wives simultaneously.

Verse clearly says 'men of faith believe...Angels', so if you have basic understanding of English you should know what it means.

The question is are you a Muslim let alone a Shia?

Irrelevant.

Usool-ud-din is about concepts.

Yes. But that's not the question.

The so-called five usool ad-deen are simply something scholars eventually came up with to categorize the principle beliefs of the religion, probably in reaction to the Mu`tazila's having done similarly with their own five usool ad-deen.

Originated by fallibles = not good.

From what I've seen won't find any hadiths that lay it out specifically like that, so as a man-made construct you shouldn't expect it to be perfect and all encompassing.

No specifics in Hadith = not good

No doubt though it is necessary for an Imami to believe in their existence.

It is important.

As Shaykh Saduq says in his own summary of the religion:

دين الامامية هو الاقرار بتوحيد الله تعالى ذكره، ونفي التشبيه عنه، وتنزيهه عما لا يليق به، والاقرار بأنبياء الله ورسله وحججه وملائكته وكتبه، والاقرار بأن محمدا (صلى الله عليه وآله) هو سيد الانبياء والمرسلين، وأنه أفضل منهم ومن جميع الملائكة المقربين، وأنه خاتم النبيين، فلا نبي بعده إلى يوم القيامة، وأنجميع الانبياء والرسل والائمة (عليهم السلام) أفضل من الملائكة، وأنهم معصومون مطهرون من كل دنس ورجس، لا يهمون بذنب صغير ولا كبير ولا يرتكبونه، وأنهم أمان لاهل الارض كما أن النجوم أمان لاهل السماء.

The Imami religion is the affirmation of the tawhid of Allah, exalted be His mention, and the negation of similarity (tashbeeh) (i.e. to His creation) for Him, and His exclusion from what is not suitable for Him. And (it is) the affirmation of the prophets of Allah and His messengers and His hujaj and His angels and His books. And the affirmation that Muhammad صلى الله عليه وآله is the master of the prophets, and that he is superior to them and (superior to) all of the angels of proximity, and that he is the seal of the prophets. So there is no prophet after him until the day of the resurrection. And that all of the prophets and the messengers and the Imams عليهمالسلام are superior to the angels. And they are ma`sumeen, purified from every uncleanliness and filth, they do not consider to do neither the minor sin nor the major, nor do they commit it, and they are a safeguard for the people of the Earth as the stars are a safeguard for the people of heaven.

http://www.tashayyu....gion---al-amali

The above doesn't answer the question. Shaykh Saduq is explaining the hierarchy, which I don't have an issue with.

If you can revert back to the verse, and with an unbiased mindset look at what it says, the verse clearly states Men of Faith believe in Angels. Dissecting this verse logically will be easy. So I'll ask one simple question:

According to the verse, can I still be a Muslim (Men of Faith) if I don't believe in Angels?

uj, please don't try to live up to your nick

i hope you know this is a religious forum and not a street brawl

kindly refrain from street language

now to the topic

kindly only bite what you can chew

read the topic of the thread

and be the literalist that you are elsewhere

and the confused you are else where

simaltaneous 4 wives

potential imamate candidate

etc

sorry, i can see you are still confused.

so try and stick to the thread topic rather than other things.

religious forums within ourselves are not about hard debating, a skill picked up from trash sites,

but honest discussion.

hope you get it this time.

I'm not trying to be rude, but your English is atrocious. I have no idea what you are babbling about. It says you are in UK, which makes it even worse. Please write proper sentences and use proper grammar.

Edited September 13, 2011 by Ugly Jinn

[Philip]

Doesn't the word usoul come from 2asl? .. Source / original / etc. ?

[phoenix]

Why isn't 'Angels' part of Roots of Religion (Usool Ad-Deen) when this verse clearly states it?

Why didn't you ask the same about 'books'?

Also, it says the believers (and the Prophet (s)) believe in the stated things; it does not say that believing in angels makes you a believer.

The belief of nubuwwah in itself includes the belief in angels.

1) The verse clearly states "men of faith.....each one believes in....Angels". Clearly stating 'men of faith' believe in Angels, hence a prerequisite.

2) Also the verse clearly puts 'Angels' with Allah, Messengers, Scriptures, hence equally important.

As above.

[haideriam]

I'm not trying to be rude, but your English is atrocious. I have no idea what you are babbling about. It says you are in UK, which makes it even worse. Please write proper sentences and use proper grammar.

(bismillah)

(salam)

this tells me that you have understood it but have no answer

it is OK afterall you are a fallible, can't answer everything

(wasalam)

[Ugly Jinn]

Why didn't you ask the same about 'books'?

Because I want to concentrate on one specific topic, 'Angels'.

Also, it says the believers (and the Prophet (s)) believe in the stated things; it does not say that believing in angels makes you a believer.

It means believing in Angels is mandatory.

"What has been revealed" to the Messenger of Allah demands belief in Allah and acceptance of the truth of the books and apostles and angels who are Allah's honored servants. Whoever believes in what has been revealed to the Messenger of Allah must believe in all those things, in a suitable manner.

http://www.shiasource.com/al-mizan/

It's an Divine order, hence a prerequisite/mandatory to be a believer.

The belief of nubuwwah in itself includes the belief in angels.

Using your logic "belief in nubuwwah it itself includes the belief in Allah."

Allah clearly separated and gave importance to Angels, and demands belief in them specifically. Read tasfir of Tabatabai.

[guest 34193]

Originated by fallibles = not good.

No specifics in Hadith = not good

Right, it's just a construct of convenience. Can be helpful for explaining things, but it's not something that so far as I can see the religion itself laid out (i.e. these five specific things are the usool ad-deen)

The above doesn't answer the question. Shaykh Saduq is explaining the hierarchy, which I don't have an issue with.

Its not just about hierarchy. The context of the quote (go to the link) is a summarization of what the Imamis believe and practice, i.e. a summary of the religion. Part of that is belief in the angels, i.e. it is mandatory to believe in them.

[Gypsy]

(salam)

Ugly Jinn,

You are just nit picking. :mad:

All Muslims (regardless of sect) believe in all the Prophets, all the books, all the angels, Jinns, pious women like maryam, ark of Noah, Paradise and Hell, day of judgement, the sirat, the Kawthar, ..etc., I could go on and on and on and on….

But if you have to summarize Islam in just 5 or 6 points, what will that 5 or 6 points be?

Edited September 14, 2011 by Zareen

[aladdin]

Ugly Jinn, you are right that according to you believeing in angels should be usul ad-din and it should be mandatory. Since we Shia, don't beleive in it, why don't I suggest for you to change your sect. How about changing your sect to Wahhabinism.

BTW, you missed another one, "His books",

I am pretty sure as a Wahhabi, your usul ad-din regarding His books will include Sahih Burkhar, Sahih Muslim, Sahih International, Muskin Khan and so forth.....

[Ugly Jinn]

Right, it's just a construct of convenience. Can be helpful for explaining things, but it's not something that so far as I can see the religion itself laid out (i.e. these five specific things are the usool ad-deen)

You are casually making some bold statements. :mellow:

Its not just about hierarchy. The context of the quote (go to the link) is a summarization of what the Imamis believe and practice, i.e. a summary of the religion. Part of that is belief in the angels, i.e. it is mandatory to believe in them.

So, if it is mandatory according to Quran, Tabatabai tafsir, and you then why aren't they part of Usool Ad-Deen?

Again, you missed my question: Can a person still be a Shia Muslim if he doesn't believe in Angels? Yes/No?

Edited September 14, 2011 by Ugly Jinn

[aladdin]

Again, you missed my question: Can a person still be a Muslim if he doesn't believe in Angels?

Can a person still be a Muslim if he doesn't believe in Books?

The Books of Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Sahih Internation, Mushin Khan ..............

[Ugly Jinn]

You are just nit picking. :mad:

This is about an exclusion of a specific Article of Faith (which clearly ordered in Quran), how is that nit picking? :wacko:

All Muslims (regardless of sect) believe in all the Prophets, all the books, all the angels, Jinns, pious women like maryam, ark of Noah, Paradise and Hell, day of judgement, the sirat, the Kawthar, ..etc., I could go on and on and on and on….

But if you have to summarize Islam in just 5 or 6 points, what will that 5 or 6 points be?

I don't want to get into what 'I' think the 5/6 points should be. I want to know when Allah clearly ordered/demanded 'men of faith' to believe specifically in Angels (you can read Allamah Tabatabai's tafsir), why is it excluded from Udool Ad Deen? It is clearly a prerequisite for 'men of faith'.

Can a person still be a Muslim if he doesn't believe in Books?

The Books of Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Sahih Internation, Mushin Khan ..............

I am speaking specifically about Angels. No off-topic examples.

Edited September 14, 2011 by Ugly Jinn

[Awaiting_for_the12th]

So, if it is mandatory according to Quran, Tabatabai tafsir, and you then why aren't they part of Usool Ad-Deen?

Again, you missed my question: Can a person still be a Muslim if he doesn't believe in Angels?

i thought anyone is a muslim who says the shahada (with intention obviously). But being a momin thats a different topic. Someone correct me if i am wrong on this

[Ugly Jinn]

i thought anyone is a muslim who says the shahada (with intention obviously). But being a momin thats a different topic. Someone correct me if i am wrong on this

To be a Shia Muslim you gotta do a little bit more. ;)

[aladdin]

I am speaking specifically about Angels. No off-topic examples.

I am not taling off-topic examples. The verse I orgianlly quoted to you says, about "His books".

Now where, in the usul ad-adin of Shia the Books are included.

So, we are missing two here:

1. Angels.

2. Books.

So, why are you only harping on Angels?

To be a Shia Muslim you gotta do a little bit more. ;)

You call yourself a Shia Muslim.

But you mock Imam Hassas (as) that he was married to more than four wives simaltenously.

What kind of Muslim are you, let alone a Shia Muslim?

[Awaiting_for_the12th]

To be a Shia Muslim you gotta do a little bit more. ;)

well technically to be a momin one has to be a shia. ;)

[elite]

(salam)

The confusion is because of mixing of the two arabic words Deen and Iman. In the verse 24:2 two words are used together.

[shakir 24:2] (As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, (giving) a hundred stripes, and let not pity for them detain you in the matter of obedience to Allah, [deeni Allahi] if you believe[tuminoona] in Allah and the last day, and let a party of believers witness their chastisement.

He could not take his brother by the law[deen] of the king (as a slave), except that Allah willed it. [12:76]

The word ‘deen‘ comes from the root daal-yaa’-noon د – ي – ن, and the basic meaning of the word is submissiveness and obedience or law.Thus, the word ‘deen‘ دين in its most well-known meaning of ‘creed’ is so called because one submits to the tenets of the creed and obeys them.

And if you look at Surah Yusuf, verse 76 (above), the word ‘deen‘ is being used in its original meaning of obedience, for to follow the law of the king necessarily implies obedience to the king.

Tawheed

[shakir 6:161] Say: Surely, (as for) me, my Lord has guided me to the right path; (to) a most right religion[deenan qiyaman], the faith of Ibrahim the upright one, and he was not of the polytheists.

Adl

[shakir 24:25] On that day Allah will pay back to them in full their just reward[deenahumu ], and they shall know that Allah is the evident Truth.

Nabuwwat

[shakir 48:28] He it is Who sent His Messenger with the guidance and the true religion[deeni alhaqqi] that He may make it prevail over all the religions; and Allah is enough for a witness.

Imamat

This day have I perfected for you your religion[deenakum] and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion; 5:3

Qiyamat

[shakir 1:4] Master of the Day of Judgment.[alddeeni]

Edited September 14, 2011 by elite

[Philip]

Ugly Jinn, you are right that according to you believeing in angels should be usul ad-din and it should be mandatory. Since we Shia, don't beleive in it, why don't I suggest for you to change your sect. How about changing your sect to Wahhabinism.

BTW, you missed another one, "His books",

I am pretty sure as a Wahhabi, your usul ad-din regarding His books will include Sahih Burkhar, Sahih Muslim, Sahih International, Muskin Khan and so forth.....

You are the most rude and most arrogant person I've ever seen on shiachat.

Maybe the angels can teach you what islam is about ..

[aladdin]

You are the most rude and most arrogant person I've ever seen on shiachat.

Maybe the angels can teach you what islam is about ..

Do you believe that Imam Hassan (as) had more than four wives simultaneously. Astafgurullah.

No Muslim beleives as such let alone a Shia Muslim, as it is against the Holy Quran and Imam Hassas (as) is the guardian of the Holy Quran.

However, Ugly Jinn believes as such.

You think that I owe him respect, while he is balantly disrespecting our Aymiyah (as).

Edited September 14, 2011 by aladdin

[phoenix]

Because I want to concentrate on one specific topic, 'Angels'

OK.

Using your logic "belief in nubuwwah it itself includes the belief in Allah."

You don't understand how it works, do you? The belief of TawHid does not require belief in Nubuwwah or others. The concept of Nubuwwah is in need of the belief of TawHid. Deliberate over why the kalimah is two testimonies?

Allah clearly separated and gave importance to Angels, and demands belief in them specifically. Read tasfir of Tabatabai.

Did. May I now invite you to read a proper tafsir which utitlises aHadith to understand the Book? Tafasir state that this verse was recited by Allah to the Prophet (saww) during laylat al-isra, at Sidrat al-Muntaha although not all of it. It was a conversation between Allah and him, with Allah beginning with آمن الرسول بما أنزل اليه من ربه and the Prophet (saww) responding with والمؤمنون كل آمن بالله وملائكته وكتبه ورسله لا نفرق بين احد من رسله وقالوا سمعنا واطعنا غفرانك ربنا واليك المصير. Then it continued in this fashion till the end of the surah.

The verse does NOT define a believer. It talks about WHAT they believe in. So I don't understand why you are by yourself hell-bent on making these beliefs the uSul of the deen. They are mandatory, essential beliefs, yes.

If you read 2:177, it is also saying the same thing (with further additions) but it clearly states that this is righteousness (birr).

While I don't really lean one way or the other when it comes to the uSul as have been classified, fact is the three core principles ARE found in many verses of the Qur'an, where they will describe a believer: one type stating those who have iman in Allah and the Last Day, and the other, those who believe in Allah and His Rasul. The other two fundamentals are primarily extensions of TawHid and Nubuwwah, respectively, and their inclusion was solely to differentiate the shi`ah from those who did not believe in it (hence you will find that they are generally called uSul al-madhhab, not uSul al-deen).

[Philip]

Do you believe that Imam Hassan (as) had more than four wives simultaneously. Astafgurullah.

No Muslim beleives as such let alone a Shia Muslim, as it is against the Holy Quran and Imam Hassas (as) is the guardian of the Holy Quran.

However, Ugly Jinn believes as such.

You think that I owe him respect, while he is balantly disrespecting our Aymiyah (as).

Aren't we talking about Angels and Usool al Deen al Islam?

Everybody here is fallible, and even if brother ugly jinn misunderstands imam's private life, hopefully Allah will forgive us all.

We need to be tolerant so Allah is tolerant with us

We need to be kind so Allah is kind with us

Overlook differences, so Allah can overlook our difference from perfect understanding of Allah

My brotherly advice Alladin .. NEVER accuse or even ask if somebody is Wahhabi or hypocrite unless you know what ur talking about. Those questions (for instance) cause hatred. And if u r wrong, then Allah can punish you for this disrespect and ignorance.

Akhlaq sabr wteebah

(salam)

[aladdin]

Aren't we talking about Angels and Usool al Deen al Islam?

Everybody here is fallible, and even if brother ugly jinn misunderstands imam's private life, hopefully Allah will forgive us all.

We need to be tolerant so Allah is tolerant with us

We need to be kind so Allah is kind with us

Overlook differences, so Allah can overlook our difference from perfect understanding of Allah

My brotherly advice Alladin .. NEVER accuse or even ask if somebody is Wahhabi or hypocrite unless you know what ur talking about. Those questions (for instance) cause hatred. And if u r wrong, then Allah can punish you for this disrespect and ignorance.

Akhlaq sabr wteebah

(salam)

No, you have jumped in the badwagon in the end of thread.

Ugly Jinn doesn't misunderstand, he has been given enought proof.

But he is still mocking our Aymijay.

I am not sure if you are Shia or not, but we Shia pratice Tawalla and Tabarra.

And, where was your Akhlaq and Adab, when you abused me.

The Holy Quran says, A Muslim is not allowed more than four wives simultaneously, what other proof is required.

He keeps on mocking our Aymiyah (as).

Only kabeth Wahhabis mock our Amiyah (as).

Tawalla and Tabarra.

Read the thread very carefully:

[haideriam]

Everybody here is fallible, and even if brother ugly jinn misunderstands imam's private life, hopefully Allah will forgive us all.

Akhlaq sabr wteebah

(salam)

(bismillah)

(salam)

once is a misunderstanding

repetitions are a different category

i have known bro aladdin a long time now

he is one of the simplest and most honest person

when he is wrong he straight away admits it

but when others are deliberately covering up their wrongs

he lets them have it

(wasalam)

[Philip]

haideriam: yes of course anybody mocking our imams a.s is our enemy, and honestly got mixed up between username saintly jinn ( in my opinion a great contributor ) and ugly jinn ( I don't remember reading anything bout this individual so I don't know). And I know Aladdin (or hope) that he's a good guy and has the right to be careful and suspicious .. These days are difficult and you Shia have been persecuted for too many years. May Allah grant u victory.

Aladdin: I Also dont know wether am a real Shia or not, and the only time I can guarantee you status of my iman in yom alqyama. As outlined above I mixed up ugly jinn with saintly jinn .. Whom I know is good insha Allah. And you accused him/her of Wahhabism right after you asked me. And that's pretty much the biggest insult you can ever tell me or any Muslim

Wishing u both success patience and knowledge in the path of Allah, His Prophet, & his family n followers.

(salam)