Quran Is Unique - I Admit But...

[MysticKnight]

There is no doubt Quran has a unique style. I will give it that much. But does that it make superior....

For example, Suratal Kawthar, suppose nobody writes like that, does it make superior to the first Du'a of Saheefa Sajadiya?

To me Saheefa Sajadiya is over all better literature then Quran. It sounds more eloquent to me and I like it's content more.

I also feel many of the Du'as of Saheefa Sajadiya are a unique style that is not contained in others.

The fact it maybe no human will ever write like those Du'as in Saheefa Sajadiya. Does it mean it was divine and not human? Ofcourse not.

Quran being unique doesn't make it's style more eloquent then other styles, and it doesn't make it superior. This specially since sytle is just one factor in greatness of writting, the most important thing is in the content and the flow of content. Now just how it sounds in Arabic.

To believe Quran is great is one thing, it's another thing to say a person must look at Surah like Suratal Feel and say this is beyond human capability, it's too great for a human to do, and we should be convinced that it must be from God.

The logic absolutely doesn't follow. What is great is really subjective. The rhyme in first 3 verses of Suratal Feel to me isn't a saving grace to it, I don't see how it's great at all.

However say it is eloquent and unique, does it follow that it's beyond human? The logic doesn't follow.

There is no logic that you look at Suratal Feel and say this is beyond human capability. Say it's super great, why do you limit the mind of human, not able to bring something like it?

I don't see how the logic follows.

At most Quran can be said to have a unique eloquence. However to say each Surah is greater then all other human writting to me is not rational. Read Suratal Nasr, and this is suppose to better then every sermon in nahjul balagha, better then all poetry, better then every du'a ever written, etc... I'm sorry but to me that's a joke and there is no objective way of seeing that.

At most you can say it's unique style, but that doesn't mean more eloquent and best style.

Here is Suratal Nasr:

ذَا جَاءَ نَصْرُ اللَّهِ وَالْفَتْحُ {1} [Shakir 110:1] When there comes the help of Allah and the victory,

وَرَأَيْتَ النَّاسَ يَدْخُلُونَ فِي دِينِ اللَّهِ أَفْوَاجًا {2}

[Shakir 110:2] And you see men entering the religion of Allah in companies,

فَسَبِّحْ بِحَمْدِ رَبِّكَ وَاسْتَغْفِرْهُ ۚ إِنَّهُ كَانَ تَوَّابًا {3}

[Shakir 110:3] Then celebrate the praise of your Lord, and ask His forgiveness; surely He is oft-returning (to mercy).

The last two verses rhyme, so what? It;s so hard to make two lines rhyme? Specially with ending with an Alif, that is so easy in Arabic, and rhyming in Arabic is so much easier then in English.

The content is basically once victory comes which comes with the help of God and people enter religion, then ask forgiveness for them, because God turns to his servants with his mercy.

No big huge deal to me.

I admit, I don't know any writting like it. Does it mean I should be convinced it's from God? Does it mean I should be convinced a human could not have wrote it?

Honestly, to me there is nothing super great about this Surah. I don't know any writting like Saheefa Sajadiya, does it follow I have to believe it's Divine?

I don't know any writting like Khomeini's last will, does it mean I have to believe it's divine?

I don't know any writting like Khomeini's Adab As-Salah, does it mean I have to believe it's divine?

It doesn't follow if a writting is different and unique, that it's divine...it can be human...at most it will prove Mohammad to be unique in literature, and have unique type of way of expressing things.

That is all it can rationally prove.

Edited September 11, 2011 by MysticKnight

[JimJam]

I think you are splitting hairs

[Incognito]

It doesn't follow if a writting is different and unique, that it's divine...it can be human...at most it will prove Mohammad to be unique in literature, and have unique type of way of expressing things.

Proving that a supposedly illiterate man, who had no education and no understanding of grammar or poetry to create a work which baffled the greatest living poets at the time?

That is a pretty difficult accusation to make against the Prophet.

[MysticKnight]

Proving that a supposedly illiterate man, who had no education and no understanding of grammar or poetry to create a work which baffled the greatest living poets at the time?

Not all Muslims believe he was illiterate, so why would a non-Muslim be forced to believe in that? Also, he could have heard poetry a lot, and talked a lot with people, and knew about the stories of Jews and Christians.

For all we know he could have been literate, and a few close people knew that, but went along with his claim of Prophethood, not sincerely believing in it.

The point is that is a different argument all together, and would rely on bias history.

Edited September 11, 2011 by MysticKnight

[wundermonk]

There is ANOTHER challenge, this time by Mormon Christians, to produce a book that is comparable to their holy book.

Here it is.

[alimohamad40]

mystic

Quran in its original form is supposed to be based on formulas and many other secrets that no limited creature can put together.

the only things we have today is the scientific stuff which are accurate

[Quisant]

The Quran is written in the poetic style that was in vogue at the time.

The fourth to seventh centuries were the golden age of Syriac literature. In this period many great writers and outstanding poets of literary merit emerged and it can be fairly said that it is in Syriac that the best Aramaic literature can be found."

Early Syriac writers preferred poetry as the mode of theological expression, Syriac poetry falls two categories, stanzaic (madrasha) non stanzaic (memra)

Ephrem of Nisibis (306-373), was acclaimed as the "Harp of the Holy Spirit," He was the earliest exponent of the poetic genre of the Madrasha and the Memra.

Madrashe were sung melodies (qale) and Memre, usually recited, were suited for narrative or moralising verse.

Mor Ephrem who died in 373 at Edessa was the Shakespeare of literature, the incomparable poet of the language; his hymns reputed to be some of the great religious poetry in the world and his unique style was copied by many.

Furthermore, Abdallah bin abi Sarh, Quss bin Saida, Imrul Qays' were famous poets at the time of the Prophet; some scholars say that their Poems are included in the Quran.

Wslm.

[eThErEaL]

Why bother with all this (seriously)? iman is not cased by miracles. you just need to be able to look at the Quran and understand it to be God's Word. Either one has iman in It or one does not. There are beleivers and then there are disbelievers. Its that simple. Normal people just accept the Quran as the Word of God. abnormal people question "what if it isnt?". Just use the imagination God has given us, and start imagining the Quran to be the Word of God. The world wlll start to look so much kooler. And just in case you tell us that we are just imagining things, we will say that so are you. Because there is no escape from imagiantion. The only difference is in the type of imagination. Some imagaintions are less kooler than others. And at the end of the day, the objectively kooler imagaintion wins.

Edited September 12, 2011 by eThErEaL

[MysticKnight]

Why bother with all this (seriously)? iman is not cased by miracles. you just need to be able to look at the Quran and understand it to be God's Word. Either one has iman in It or one does not. There are beleivers and then there are disbelievers. Its that simple. Normal people just accept the Quran as the Word of God. abnormal people question "what if it isnt?". Just use the imagination God has given us, and start imagining the Quran to be the Word of God. The world wlll start to look so much kooler. And just in case you tell us that we are just imagining things, we will say that so are you. Because there is no escape from imagiantion. The only difference is in the type of imagination. Some imagaintions are less kooler than others. And at the end of the day, the objectively kooler imagaintion wins.

Although this is not really an argument, I would argue that imagining God loves all, as opposed to not loving disbelievers, even hating them, and that God will have mercy on all, as opposed to punishing a great portion of humanity, and that we value all humans regardless of their beliefs, instead for example disregarding all their value because they are polytheists, is a lot cooler. It's a lot cooler when you look at humans and see the good in them and value it and don't disregard it just because of a belief. It's a lot cooler that we value woman rights and deem her equal, instead of making her half-a witness of man, not require to take her permission if married to her, to do muta or marry another woman, she can;t refuse to have sex if she is not in the mood, and other things like not being able to be a judge, a ruler, leader in prayer, etc...

[Incognito]

Not all Muslims believe he was illiterate, so why would a non-Muslim be forced to believe in that? Also, he could have heard poetry a lot, and talked a lot with people, and knew about the stories of Jews and Christians.

For all we know he could have been literate, and a few close people knew that, but went along with his claim of Prophethood, not sincerely believing in it.

The point is that is a different argument all together, and would rely on bias history.

If we do not see the miraculous beauty of the book, then it is because of our own lacking. Can you say you know enough to fully appreciate Mozart or Tchaikovsky? The fact remains that the poets at the time were baffled by it, that is enough.

[MysticKnight]

ذَا جَاءَ نَصْرُ اللَّهِ وَالْفَتْحُ {1} [Shakir 110:1] When there comes the help of Allah and the victory,

وَرَأَيْتَ النَّاسَ يَدْخُلُونَ فِي دِينِ اللَّهِ أَفْوَاجًا {2}

[Shakir 110:2] And you see men entering the religion of Allah in companies,

فَسَبِّحْ بِحَمْدِ رَبِّكَ وَاسْتَغْفِرْهُ ۚ إِنَّهُ كَانَ تَوَّابًا {3}

[Shakir 110:3] Then celebrate the praise of your Lord, and ask His forgiveness; surely He is oft-returning (to mercy).

I would argue, everyone looking at this Surah, can see it is not beyond human. It's very obvious there is nothing super great about it, it's not beyond human, there is no big eloquence to it that is beyond human capability.

You can say it's our lack of understanding, our own lack, but if people feel different on what is great or not, and it's subjective, then what is the proof of Islam. Is based on subjective experience, not universal experience? Think about it.

I also ask you to sincerely ask yourself when reading this Surah, are you truly convinced it is beyond human? That it's super great that no literature comes close to it's greatness.

Edited September 12, 2011 by MysticKnight

[Gypsy]

It's a lot cooler that we value woman rights and deem her equal, instead of making her half-a witness of man, not require to take her permission if married to her, to do muta or marry another woman, she can;t refuse to have sex if she is not in the mood, and other things like not being able to be a judge, a ruler, leader in prayer, etc...

Maybe so but remember that the Prophet used to live in the 6h century AD. And in the 6th century AD they used to oppress the female gender

Baby girls were buried alive

Female were traded like chattel

Female did not inherit

There wasn't limit on the number of wives a man can have

It was so easy for a man to get rid of his wife

Women can be forced to marry against her will

She had no right to be educated

and much much more

I know that you always try to look at all the negativity but look at the amazing thing that Islam has done for women. And all this was done within 22 years. If you are honest to yourself, you will admit that this is a stunning accomplishment because it took women in other culture hundreds or perhaps thousands of years.

Edited September 12, 2011 by Zareen

[thenamelessone]

Do you know arabic? Before you can criticize or even critique a thing, it would be best if you understood fusha at a university level. Then you can say it might be lacking and then we could debate points. However, if the points you wish to debate are whether or not it rhymes at a place that is to your liking then perhaps you need a hobby outside of writing on the internet.

Edited September 12, 2011 by thenamelessone

[MysticKnight]

Maybe so but remember that the Prophet used to live in the 6h century AD. And in the 6th century AD they used to oppress the female gender

Baby girls were buried alive

Female were traded like chattel

Female did not inherit

There wasn't limit on the number of wives a man can have

It was so easy for a man to get rid of his wife

Women can be forced to marry against her will

She had no right to be educated

and much much more

I know that you always try to look at all the negativity but look at the amazing thing that Islam has done for women. And all this was done within 22 years. If you are honest to yourself, you will admit that this is a stunning accomplishment because it took women in other culture hundreds or perhaps thousands of years.

It was better then the culture of that time and better then how many places treated women, it still doesn't invalidate my point, that it would be cooler if women were give more rights, more equality, at least to me, it's cooler. Instead people are told God knows the genders more, so just accept it, even though there is no rational explanation.

[Gypsy]

It was better then the culture of that time and better then how many places treated women, it still doesn't invalidate my point, that it would be cooler if women were give more rights, more equality, at least to me, it's cooler. Instead people are told God knows the genders more, so just accept it, even though there is no rational explanation.

MysticKnight, as a Muslim woman I do not really feel oppressed.

When Muslim women are oppressed (honor killing, forced marriage, denying education etc), it's because of the failure to follow Islam.

[Forgotten]

You are comparing the words of Allah to words of humans.fear Allah.

[MysticKnight]

You are comparing the words of Allah to words of humans.fear Allah.

To me Quran doesn't seem divine, repeating over and over again the fate of disbelievers, and repeating several times in the same chapter, to me is a sign of spontaneous speech, that is coming randomly, and not all-wise preplanned speech. Singling out two humans fates like Suratal Abu Lahab looks like angry speech, not speech of a divine only saying the best and most relevant words to us. Besides the logical errors of Quran, is that there is no sophisticated conversation in Quran. It's all dictating tone doesn't seem divine to me, it seems human. It's repetitive of the same facts over and over again, and the same themes, to me, shows a human whom couldn't think of much to say, not a God whom could tell us countless things instead of repeating the same facts over and over again. Some of it's chapters seems like nothing but random outbursts, with no relationship of one topic to another...all this is attributed to the Divine...but does it really seem divine...

As for Fear of Allah, if that Allah you mean the one whom hates all disbelievers, has no love for them, punishes all those astray with perpetual increase in punishment, and putting in fire forever all those whom desire this world, and yet wants his creation to recognize him as most merciful...then I won't fear that Allah because I don't believe in that Allah..

The God I believe is that of Absolute Love and Mercy, he doesn't hate his creation, he won't torment them for their shortcomings and faults, and will love his creation and be merciful to them, whether they fail their purpose in life or not, whether they turn to the dark side or the light, because I believe that is what Absolute Beauty and Glory is, is to be Absolutely Merciful, Compassionate, and Loving to all with no conditions.

The Wrath and hate described in Quran overshadows the Loving Merciful side that is only for the special group with conditions of believing + obeying + not desiring this world + not disobeying..that it is suppose to show he is merciful and loving not withstanding the rest of humanity that will get eternally tormented by torment we cannot imagine and his hate for all those whom disbelieve.

Ofcourse disbelievers are punished for their disbelief, many times in Quran it says it is for their disbelief, it is because of disbelieving...all their actions doesn't matter...they are punished for disbelieving.. this is suppose to show a Glorious Merciful God?

Really it seems like a petty unforgiving unmerciful angry wrathful Lord we all have with only compassion and mercy and love for special elite of his servants, if the Quran is right...

Edited September 13, 2011 by MysticKnight

[Forgotten]

It's repetitive because it's meant to show the importance and sink in to our heads but for some it seems that it doesn't.

Allah is Merciful because He is most forgiving if you just ask for it.

[Ali H Syed]

Allah sbwt does not hate all disbelievers, it doesnt affect Allah sbwt if they sin a thousand times or not, therefore the emotion hate cannot be attributed to the acts of a human, the signs of god are all around us from birth, to the universe, Allah sbwt love has no ends, you are able to taste, to live, to smell to feel, to interact, etc etc etc all due to the mercy of Allah sbwt, and as i have repeated to you many times, Allah sbwt does not punish you for desiring in this world, you are punished for desiring and trying to obtain the bad in this world, and the prohibited, if you are rich, in legitimate ways, according to you, Allah sbwt send you to hell... that is not the case at all, a believer can have a mansion, a lamborghini, marries a beautiful woman, aslong as he follows the islamic laws, you can have all of that. the very fact that you do not believe is the very fact you will not be guided simple.

so your saying their is no concept of good or bad, you are saying if i kill a thousand people, rape 500 women, my "god" will have absolute forgiveness on my faults? LOL... in that case, saddam hussein, hitler, and bush are all heading to the same reward as me and you? correct?

you have been given the message, you obey it or you disobey it, but as an end result you will be questioned upon your actions, and judged with perfection and absolute no bias involvement, and going by your direction, its a hot destination.

(bismillah)

[Lanatin]

You seem to regard rhyming couplets as the sole constituent of eloquence.

Go read a manual on poetry then come back and place yourself in the position of an arab linguist.

[Ali H Syed]

You seem to regard rhyming couplets as the sole constituent of eloquence.

Go read a manual on poetry then come back and place yourself in the position of an arab linguist.

no more interestingly, he believes that god has absolute mercy, meaning their is no right or wrong, in his belief, if i was to go kill you and your family, kill my mother and father, smoke weed, drink alcohol all day and night, swear at every one, eat raw pigs, whilst shooting more people, at the end of the day, i will be forgiven -.- interesting concept, kind of resembles what shaitan wants planted into disbelievers minds?

(bismillah)

[MysticKnight]

Allah sbwt does not hate all disbelievers,

هُوَ الَّذِي جَعَلَكُمْ خَلَائِفَ فِي الْأَرْضِ ۚ فَمَنْ كَفَرَ فَعَلَيْهِ كُفْرُهُ ۖ وَلَا يَزِيدُ الْكَافِرِينَ كُفْرُهُمْ عِنْدَ رَبِّهِمْ إِلَّا مَقْتًا ۖ وَلَا يَزِيدُ الْكَافِرِينَ كُفْرُهُمْ إِلَّا خَسَارًا {39}

[Shakir 35:39] He it is Who made you rulers in the land; therefore whoever disbelieves, his unbelief is against himself; and their unbelief does not increase the disbelievers with their Lord in anything except hatred; and their unbelief does not increase the disbelievers m anything except loss.

There is another verse I don't know where it is but on the day of judgment he will say to some people that his hate for them is more then their hate for themselves.

Allah is Merciful because He is most forgiving if you just ask for it.

And if a disbeliever asks for God to forgive him, and have mercy on him will he be forgiven

If a person desires this world and ask forgiveness, well Quran promises those whom desire this world nothing but fire in the next world...

So it seems it's not that easy...

You have to ask forgiveness + not desire this world + believe in Islam + obey God + not disobey him...

It isn't as easy as asking forgiveness and you will receive...although one verse does say anyone whom does ask forgiveness will find God forgiving...

Edited September 13, 2011 by MysticKnight

[Forgotten]

So now you are just contradicting yourself.

[MysticKnight]

no more interestingly, he believes that god has absolute mercy, meaning their is no right or wrong,

Whom says it means there is no right or wrong? How does that follow?

in his belief, if i was to go kill you and your family, kill my mother and father, smoke weed, drink alcohol all day and night, swear at every one, eat raw pigs, whilst shooting more people, at the end of the day, i will be forgiven -.- interesting concept, kind of resembles what shaitan wants planted into disbelievers minds?

People whom live an evil life will have the shame of living that life..your so use to the concept of God punishing that you cannot fathom that God being absolutely Merciful...

Of course, in Islam it's not only murderers and super evil people that are condemned to hell forever, if you desire this world, you are in the fire forever, if you disbelieve in Islam, you are in hell-fire..the degree of Wrath is so unbalanced with that of forbearance and mercy...that is makes no sense to even call God forbearing merciful, when he is forbearing and merciful only to certain people with narrow conditions that most of humanity will not achieve.

Really, to justify the Wrathful Ugly side, we can only resort to talking about most evil people, but even them, do you know their psychological factors...a lot of people will never have such evil thoughts occur to them or never find themselves in the position to commit such crimes...

most of us will never rule a country so as to be seen if we would be harsh dictators or benevolent people that give their people freedom and democracy and give up power.

it's easy for us to look back and condemn slavery of the west with blacks, but would we be different if we were born in that time, in that culture...

the point is, life is not simple, and I honestly don't believe God would create anyone knowing that he would be punished eternally in hell...even if future knowledge was impossible, I don't think God would create people with the chance they be eternally tortured...now have most of humanity going to be eternally punished...sorry but that's way too much...

yeah I rather believe some evil people will only have the shame of doing what they did but not eternally tormented for their crimes...then believe people will be eternally tortured for their shortcomings.

Edited September 13, 2011 by MysticKnight

[MysticKnight]

It's repetitive because it's meant to show the importance and sink in to our heads but for some it seems that it doesn't.

It could have repeated through out Quran to love Allah, it could have said to do our actions out of love of Allah repeatedly, something inspirational could have been repeated, why out of all things that could have been repeated, God wants us to be obsessed with the fate of disbelievers? Desiring this world resulting in hell is important, it's only mentioned two times in Quran, yet it stuck in my head, because I know it applied to me...

we could have Surahs discussing on how to establish a just government, how to establish a just society, minimize corruption, etc, but instead God wanted to repeat the same things over and over again...sorry, but repeating or not repeating will not diminish it's importance....

Their is really no justification of repeating over and over again the fate of disbelievers...it shows a human flaw...unplanned speech..obsession with disbelievers...

Edited September 13, 2011 by MysticKnight

[Forgotten]

Well duhhh at the time there were only disbelievers how many were believers? How many people are believers now? How can one live their life full of wordly desires and not acknowledge who it all came from?

You only focus on the negative but there is repetition in god's mercy, rewards, etc too.

Your comments regarding quran and Allah are insulting and saying sorry in your posts don't mean anything because even nonbelievers speak with more respect than you. I don't see how this is tolerated by the forum as rules explicitly state consequences of blasphemous comments.

[Ali H Syed]

Whom says it means there is no right or wrong? How does that follow?

People whom live an evil life will have the shame of living that life..your so use to the concept of God punishing that you cannot fathom that God being absolutely Merciful...

Of course, in Islam it's not only murderers and super evil people that are condemned to hell forever, if you desire this world, you are in the fire forever, if you disbelieve in Islam, you are in hell-fire..the degree of Wrath is so unbalanced with that of forbearance and mercy...that is makes no sense to even call God forbearing merciful, when he is forbearing and merciful only to certain people with narrow conditions that most of humanity will not achieve.

Really, to justify the Wrathful Ugly side, we can only resort to talking about most evil people, but even them, do you know their psychological factors...a lot of people will never have such evil thoughts occur to them or never find themselves in the position to commit such crimes...

most of us will never rule a country so as to be seen if we would be harsh dictators or benevolent people that give their people freedom and democracy and give up power.

it's easy for us to look back and condemn slavery of the west with blacks, but would we be different if we were born in that time, in that culture...

the point is, life is not simple, and I honestly don't believe God would create anyone knowing that he would be punished eternally in hell...even if future knowledge was impossible, I don't think God would create people with the chance they be eternally tortured...now have most of humanity going to be eternally punished...sorry but that's way too much...

yeah I rather believe some evil people will only have the shame of doing what they did but not eternally tormented for their crimes...then believe people will be eternally tortured for their shortcomings.

I quote this from yourself :

he won't torment them for their shortcomings and faults, and will love his creation and be merciful to them, whether they fail their purpose in life or not, whether they turn to the dark side or the light, because I believe that is what Absolute Beauty and Glory is, is to be Absolutely Merciful, Compassionate, and Loving to all with no conditions.

To me that clearly indicates whatever actions I choose to take, god will not hold that against me, they are your words not mine.

No, incorrect, I am so aware of gods punishment I wouldn’t want to fathom the concept of sinning with no fear and having no consequence of my actions, that is what the devil/shaitan wants you to accept. So in your opinion, I ask again, what will your concept of god do to Hitler? Forgive him for his mistakes?

I have already explained to your view on desire of this world, stop repeating your self. If you disbelieve yes, as you have been given countless messages, and countless blessings, to not believe is like being slapped in the face and saying 2 seconds after, that I wasn’t slapped. Well not really, eternal blessings seem to balance the eternal wrath? And your deeds are all accounted for, if you are evil, but did good acts, you will have your reward. No I don’t, I don’t need to know factors concerning their actions, as they choose to do what they did, knowing fully well, what they are doing, and if it is seen to be right or wrong. Morally I can tell you I wouldn’t be a harsh dictator, that is concluded through faith of islam, name one true follower of islam, who commited countless sins. And let me give you a hint, saddam, bin laden etc don’t count. No we would not, I go to Pakistan and I see the poor children suffering and begging, if I witnessed that seen 50 years ago, I would still get upset and act In the same way to help them, I would believe 99% of humanity would do the same.

I agree with you there, life isn’t simple, it is full of temptations and trials, but ultimately your views have become so sickening that I don’t think I can debate with you any longer, simply to the fact you said this and I quote it from you once again :

yeah I rather believe some evil people will only have the shame of doing what they did but not eternally tormented for their crimes...then believe people will be eternally tortured for their shortcomings.

I wonder if you would repeat those words, if some one killed every member of your family, your future kids, burnt your house, and belongings.

(bismillah)

Edited September 13, 2011 by Ali H Syed

[MysticKnight]

Well duhhh at the time there were only disbelievers how many were believers? How many people are believers now?

Quran is for all time, this shows a human element to it, because he constantly wanted to tell the disbelievers of their fate...God on the other hand would know revelation is for all time and it doesn't make sense for readers to repeatedly be told the same thing and be obsessed over the fate of disbelievers. It also not very appealing to non-Muslims to be constantly told the fate of disbelievers as well. Repeating the same fact will not make it more convincing or less convincing.

How can one live their life full of wordly desires and not acknowledge who it all came from?

Really Muslims should blame their desire of the world on disbelievers?

You only focus on the negative but there is repetition in god's mercy, rewards, etc too.

The point it is negative, and it really overshadows the positive to me, that positive is not a saving grace.

I wonder if you would repeat those words, if some one killed every member of your family, your future kids, burnt your house, and belongings.

I would hope personal feelings of vengeance would not blind me to the beauty of Absolute Mercy, Love, Forbearance, and Forgiveness.

Edited September 13, 2011 by MysticKnight

[Lanatin]

I would hope personal feelings of vengeance would not blind me to the beauty of Absolute Mercy, Love, Forbearance, and Forgiveness.

Which has so many potentials such as directing his criminality to others to benefit for himself, perhaps even see it as a free license to continue his acts against the community for his own personal satisfaction and still receive a free ticket in society despite the charm he has from you initially forgiving him. He still has that egoistic, satanic insinuation to perpetuate the evil he brought himself to whilst in the afterlife all 'temptations' to commit evil are absent as the test is over and man will be rewarded for his good deeds...which brings us to mention the life-long period he has been given to turn to God and ask for forgiveness for his sins whatever the sin be and his repentance would be accepted. These chances of being forgiven are always there no matter how many times you go back to the same sin, or resort to another sin of a lesser or greater magnitude. God forgives sins all together (39:53). Yet if you don't turn to God for these criminal acts against the people, you will go to Hell. This is in no way considered as 'personal' vengeance as the man's actions isn't harming God in anyway (41:46). It is the individual responsibility of every man and woman to combat his evil self and resort to the intellect and perform good.

References:

"Say: 'O' my servants! who have been extravagant unto their own selves, despair ye not of the mercy of God; verily God forgives sins all together; verily He is the Oft-Forgiving, the Most Merciful" (39:53)

"Whosoever does good, it is for his own self, and whosoever does evil, it is against it; and thy Lord is not unjust unto the servants" (41:46)

Edited September 13, 2011 by La'nat Ma Man

[Ugly Jinn]

To me Quran doesn't seem divine

You have a valid opinion.

But how should a divine book read like? I mean, you want a book written according to how 'you feel' it should be. Isn't that a bias/preference? Even if you liked a certain book, it's exactly how you imagined God, you like the poetry, the rules, the stories, etc., still doesn't mean it's divine.

The point is, for the sake of argument, let's say out of all the scriptures out there (from all religions/beliefs) only one is divine, how can we really know?

Regardless, you have a valid argument.

Edited September 13, 2011 by Ugly Jinn

[MysticKnight]

Ugly Jinn, I could probably tell you what I expect not to be in the book, and what I don't expect of it, then rather explain all that I expect.

But I would expect inspirational speech, other then motivation of fear of hell and reward of heaven....I would also expect sophisticated talk about many subjects, good sound arguments, I would expect a detailed explanation of how to establish a just government and limit corruption, I would expect a lot emphasis on love towards each other, I would expect different stories to be told, not the same ones repeated, and the stories should not be to hammer the same point over and over again (ie. those whom disbelieve were punished, and those whom believe were saved, people reject miracles and proofs)...and I would also expect to have all the commands we have to obey, the reason I expect all this, is that once we look towards a book for everything, it should really have everything..it should answer the many pressings questions, prove things where proof is possible, tell us how to know God and his Names and his Oneness in a sophistacted matter, talk about what morality is and why people differ in sophisticated way...explain us pressing questions, be ultimate enlightenment, because people will look towards the book for guidance.

But to be honest, I think God would rather have us think for ourselves that dictate to us how to think...part of life is really learning how to ponder, come up with ideas, investigate your own ideas, see what you know and think you know, question your beliefs....

The problem with a revelation also is that you can never know it's beyond human capability no matter how good it is and whether it's unique or not. I don't expect God to make future generations that can't witness miracles obligated to believe in a revelation they can't soundly know is from God or not.

Edited September 13, 2011 by MysticKnight

[Lanatin]

I don't expect God to make future generations that can't witness miracles obligated to believe in a revelation they can't soundly know is from God or not.

You could if you took a course in classical Arabic and carefully considered the critical evaluation of the Quran.

[Ali H Syed]

I would hope personal feelings of vengeance would not blind me to the beauty of Absolute Mercy, Love, Forbearance, and Forgiveness.

why would you hope they dont? according yourself, even if you then went and killed every one the killer knows, youd be forgiven right? contradiction? i think so.

(bismillah)

Ugly Jinn, I could probably tell you what I expect not to be in the book, and what I don't expect of it, then rather explain all that I expect.

But I would expect inspirational speech, other then motivation of fear of hell and reward of heaven....I would also expect sophisticated talk about many subjects, good sound arguments, I would expect a detailed explanation of how to establish a just government and limit corruption, I would expect a lot emphasis on love towards each other, I would expect different stories to be told, not the same ones repeated, and the stories should not be to hammer the same point over and over again (ie. those whom disbelieve were punished, and those whom believe were saved, people reject miracles and proofs)...and I would also expect to have all the commands we have to obey, the reason I expect all this, is that once we look towards a book for everything, it should really have everything..it should answer the many pressings questions, prove things where proof is possible, tell us how to know God and his Names and his Oneness in a sophistacted matter, talk about what morality is and why people differ in sophisticated way...explain us pressing questions, be ultimate enlightenment, because people will look towards the book for guidance.

But to be honest, I think God would rather have us think for ourselves that dictate to us how to think...part of life is really learning how to ponder, come up with ideas, investigate your own ideas, see what you know and think you know, question your beliefs....

The problem with a revelation also is that you can never know it's beyond human capability no matter how good it is and whether it's unique or not. I don't expect God to make future generations that can't witness miracles obligated to believe in a revelation they can't soundly know is from God or not.

mystic all im going to say is, for me it is clear to see, with my eyes, this is my opinion, that you want to live a life, where there is no judgement, you want the weight of punishment of your back, so you have been blinded to come to the conclusions that youv made, you want to live your life how YOU want, and shall do as you please, i cannot stop you, but simply, ill pray that one day maybe your guided

(bismillah)

[Ruq]

why would you hope they dont? according yourself, even if you then went and killed every one the killer knows, youd be forgiven right? contradiction? i think so.

(bismillah)

mystic all im going to say is, for me it is clear to see, with my eyes, this is my opinion, that you want to live a life, where there is no judgement, you want the weight of punishment of your back, so you have been blinded to come to the conclusions that youv made, you want to live your life how YOU want, and shall do as you please, i cannot stop you, but simply, ill pray that one day maybe your guided

(bismillah)

I dont think thats entirely fair. I rather get the impression that Mystic is genuinly searching for truth and he's not a person who can push questions or confusion aside, which i think many of us do. If you care about truth you will question, its a harder path too take and a braver path in many ways. Too many of us are lazy and cowardly about this sort of thing. Ive read a few of Mystics threads and i dont think he's trying to upset people or cause trouble, i think he's genuinly frustrated and disappointed and i get the impression he really does want people to help him resolve these questions, but something just isnt clicking in him at the moment and he's finding it increasingly frustrating. He has legitimate concerns and instead of telling him his views are 'disgusting' it might be more productive if people tried to keep some maturity and genuinly help with his investigations (which most people seem to be doing mashallah). Defensiveness is an indication of you being unsure of your position.

[Forgotten]

^er, people have told him time and time again referring him to people of knowledge on other threads but has he taken that route? Instead he says oh they won't reply because they only answer one question at a time, etc. and posts on forums all day. How about trying to contact those people and then if they don't reply complain about it. These are excuses of someone who claims is seeking knowledge but actually isn't, he is just speaking arrogantly and is being stubborn. when he used to read Quran with an open heart and pure intentions there was no doubt then but why now? Wasting time not doing anything productive all day in the name of seeking knowledge has opened the doors for shaitan to pollute his brain with all this nonsense and let go of what he used to believe in with all his heart.

It's very sad.

Edited September 14, 2011 by Forgotten