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Rasul

Jesus 100% Man And 100% God?

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im just a bit confused as to the quote you posted... whats the reference supposed to be? it doesnt seem like a normal bible reference

Salam!

It is quote from Bible passage...

(NIV Bible, Numbers 23:19)

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im just a bit confused as to the quote you posted...

whats the reference supposed to be? it doesnt seem like a normal bible reference

Is from the Old Testament.

19 God is not human, that he should lie,

not a human being, that he should change his mind.

Does he speak and then not act?

Does he promise and not fulfill?

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Maybe it is one person suffering from dissociative identity disorder or disambiguation :P :P

Too intellectual for me, just glad Aladdin is here to clear this up for me, although...

My Father and I are in fact two different people. He lives (almost) on one end of Canada and I (almost) live on the other, separated by some 2260 miles. I had to make the move to keep my job. It's a long story and I have very little time right now. If you are really interested I will explain more at another time.

I actually came to Shia Chat to inform those my Father conversed with that he had suffered a heart attack and to ask for prayer. Yes, a Christian asking Muslims for prayer. I believe more in prayer than I do in organized religion.

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Hi Lan’at,

Quote from 140: --- Lol placid is a troll.

The first meaning of troll in my dictionary says, “To sing in parts, as around; --- to sing heartily.”

Not a bad meaning as singing parts is ‘singing in harmony,’ --- and I think you will admit that I am always singing from the same “Hymn Book,” the Bible.

I try to answer legitimate questions and respond to erroneous comments.

--- Should anyone be opposed to asking a question about the Bible, and getting a straight answer, with Scripture references?

--- As long as the same questions are asked, the answers will be the same, --- that’s kind of like “singing around,” or harmonizing in ‘repetition.’

My interest is to have Muslims today know the truth of the Scriptures, not just what they have been taught about them.

That was the advice that was given through Muhammad in these verses in Surah 5:

99. The Apostle's (Muhammad’s) duty is but to proclaim (the message). But God knoweth all that ye reveal and ye conceal.

100. Say: "Not equal are things that are bad and things that are good, even though the abundance of the bad may dazzle thee; so fear God, O ye that understand; that (so) ye may prosper."

101. O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, God will forgive those: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing.

102. Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.

104. When it is said to them: "Come to what God hath revealed; come to the Apostle": They say: "Enough for us are the ways we found our fathers following." what! even though their fathers were void of knowledge and guidance?

105. O ye who believe! Guard your own souls: If ye follow (right) guidance, no hurt can come to you from those who stray. The goal of you all is to God: it is He that will show you the truth of all that ye do.

I find so much simple knowledge in the Quran because I believe it is plainly written and easy to understand.

We don't have to make it complicated. --- Simply worship God and seek His guidance, to find, and to follow the Way that is straight..

Edited by placid

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Hi Lan’at,

Quote from 140: --- Lol placid is a troll.

The first meaning of troll in my dictionary says, “To sing in parts, as around; --- to sing heartily.”

Not a bad meaning as singing parts is ‘singing in harmony,’ --- and I think you will admit that I am always singing from the same “Hymn Book,” the Bible.

I try to answer legitimate questions and respond to erroneous comments.

--- Should anyone be opposed to asking a question about the Bible, and getting a straight answer, with Scripture references?

--- As long as the same questions are asked, the answers will be the same, --- that’s kind of like “singing around,” or harmonizing in ‘repetition.’

My interest is to have Muslims today know the truth of the Scriptures, not just what they have been taught about them.

That was the advice that was given through Muhammad in these verses in Surah 5:

99. The Apostle's (Muhammad’s) duty is but to proclaim (the message). But God knoweth all that ye reveal and ye conceal.

100. Say: "Not equal are things that are bad and things that are good, even though the abundance of the bad may dazzle thee; so fear God, O ye that understand; that (so) ye may prosper."

101. O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, God will forgive those: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing.

102. Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.

104. When it is said to them: "Come to what God hath revealed; come to the Apostle": They say: "Enough for us are the ways we found our fathers following." what! even though their fathers were void of knowledge and guidance?

105. O ye who believe! Guard your own souls: If ye follow (right) guidance, no hurt can come to you from those who stray. The goal of you all is to God: it is He that will show you the truth of all that ye do.

I find so much simple knowledge in the Quran because I believe it is plainly written and easy to understand.

We don't have to make it complicated. --- Simply worship God and seek His guidance, to find, and to follow the Way that is straight..

Well it's nice that we have lots of commonalities, but instead of digressing from the facts at hand with your essays i'm going to have to tell you to stop confusing the likes of Aladdin by refraining from capitalizing the letter 'h' when referring to Jesus; also I know you've been a member of this forum for years and that your arguments about the Resurrection of Jesus are repetitive and futile as they conflict with the Qur'anic account. It's also a routine habit of trolls to create two accounts on the same forum to play on the minds of people, and 'son of placid' is a VERY fishy presence who comes up with the most unlikely scenario of some sort of link with you (how he conveniently discovered the pseudonym 'placid' on shiachat to be his father whilst being employed in a completely different city will always remain a mystery to me).

Edited by La'nat Ma Man

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Well it's nice that we have lots of commonalities, but instead of digressing from the facts at hand with your essays i'm going to have to tell you to stop confusing the likes of Aladdin by refraining from capitalizing the letter 'h' when referring to Jesus; also I know you've been a member of this forum for years and that your arguments about the Resurrection of Jesus are repetitive and futile as they conflict with the Qur'anic account. It's also a routine habit of trolls to create two accounts on the same forum to play on the minds of people, and 'son of placid' is a VERY fishy presence who comes up with the most unlikely scenario of some sort of link with you (how he conveniently discovered the pseudonym 'placid' on shiachat to be his father whilst being employed in a completely different city will always remain a mystery to me).

I need to find one of the old thread called, ..........

Forgot the name, but will give the link soon.

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Placid:

1. My interest is to have Muslims today know the truth of the Scriptures, not just what they have been taught about them.

That was the advice that was given through Muhammad in these verses in Surah 5:

99. The Apostle's (Muhammad’s) duty is but to proclaim (the message). But God knoweth all that ye reveal and ye conceal.

100. Say: "Not equal are things that are bad and things that are good, even though the abundance of the bad may dazzle thee; so fear God, O ye that understand; that (so) ye may prosper."

2. 101. O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, God will forgive those: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing.

102. Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.

1. Do you mean you try to teach Muslims about their own scripture? That is rather presumptive, and insulting isn't it? Your answer will be "No" but I want to see how you handle it.

2. From my perspective this says "accept what you have been told and don't ask questions." It also says God will forgive for questioning but I see nothing wrong with questioning because knowledge springs from questioning.

I am asking you these questions because you posted the quotations and agree with them apparently.

Please limit your response to your own words and don't flood me with more quotes. I only want to know your thoughts and not necessarily how you arrived at them. Okay?

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That verse was talking about questions that 'pain' (yu'thookum) you; in other words, unnecessary questions that only cause anger and discord. It's not saying questions shouldn't be asked for all...questioning for enlightenment is no sin and there are plenty of verses in the Quran that are a response to muslims' queries concerning the ritual side of Islam and what is rightfully considered lawful and unlawful.

Just a little bit of interesting info: this verse was revealed on the occasion of the Prophet ascending to the pulpit and requesting the muslims to ask him any question they had to give. One person asked what his father's name was, the prophet answered him and another person asked the prophet where his deceased father was, he replied 'in Hell'. This chance for enlightenment initiated by the prophet soon turned into mindless prattle that wasn't for the sake of guidance, rather they were begging for the obvious which they would rather have repeated to them openly from the mouth of the Prophet. This verse was then revealed.

Edited by La'nat Ma Man

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The whole Quran is full of ask questions. Ponder this, reflect on this, did you consider this, if your consider and so forth.

The story of Abraham the great Prophet, Rasul and Imam is one of the story where we are asked to question, question, question .....

The story differs from the Bible.

The sacrifice of his son Ismael. Before they leave the house, Abraham informs his son before hand that Allah has asked him to sacrifice his son Ismael. The son agrees to this, and the father and son leave home.

To make the story short, Allah substitute a goat for sacrifice and spares Ismael. After that Abraham asks Allah how can Allah bring life to death. Allah acts that He is hurt, and asks Abraham, even after all that, don't you have faith. Abraham replies, I do. But to reassure my heart.

Allah tells him to kill four birds, and distribute 1/4 of the each bird on the four mountains around him. Then Allah tells him to call the birds and the birds will fly to him.

Question, question, ponder, ponder, reflect, reflect, question, question ...... it shouldn't be blind faith.

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That verse was talking about questions that 'pain' (yu'thookum) you; in other words, unnecessary questions that only cause anger and discord. It's not saying questions shouldn't be asked for all...questioning for enlightenment is no sin and there are plenty of verses in the Quran that are a response to muslims' queries concerning the ritual side of Islam and what is rightfully considered lawful and unlawful.

Just a little bit of interesting info: this verse was revealed on the occasion of the Prophet ascending to the pulpit and requesting the muslims to ask him any question they had to give. One person asked what his father's name was, the prophet answered him and another person asked the prophet where his deceased father was, he replied 'in Hell'. This chance for enlightenment initiated by the prophet soon turned into mindless prattle that wasn't for the sake of guidance, rather they were begging for the obvious which they would rather have repeated to them openly from the mouth of the Prophet. This verse was then revealed.

Thank you bro your answer was most informative and eases my mind.

The whole Quran is full of ask questions. Ponder this, reflect on this, did you consider this, if your consider and so forth.

The story of Abraham the great Prophet, Rasul and Imam is one of the story where we are asked to question, question, question .....

The story differs from the Bible.

The sacrifice of his son Ismael. Before they leave the house, Abraham informs his son before hand that Allah has asked him to sacrifice his son Ismael. The son agrees to this, and the father and son leave home.

To make the story short, Allah substitute a goat for sacrifice and spares Ismael. After that Abraham asks Allah how can Allah bring life to death. Allah acts that He is hurt, and asks Abraham, even after all that, don't you have faith. Abraham replies, I do. But to reassure my heart.

Allah tells him to kill four birds, and distribute 1/4 of the each bird on the four mountains around him. Then Allah tells him to call the birds and the birds will fly to him.

Question, question, ponder, ponder, reflect, reflect, question, question ...... it shouldn't be blind faith.

The greatest affirmation of life is death, the origin of blood sacrifice right down to bull fighting today, although it is not celebrated as such it is the root of it.

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The greatest affirmation of life is death, the origin of blood sacrifice right down to bull fighting today, although it is not celebrated as such it is the root of it.

There is no blood sacrifice in what I have quoted. None whatsoever. Islam doesn't believe atonement of sin through blood sacrifice either through animals and/or humans.

1. The sacrifice of Ishmael was a test for both Abraham and Ismael. Both passed the test.

2. Abraham was told to put four dead birds on four mountains and to call them and the birds would fly to him, here God was showing him the concept of resurrection. Basically, God was answering Abraham questionings.

Islam considers blood sacrifices to be a primitive concept.

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There is no blood sacrifice in what I have quoted. None whatsoever. Islam doesn't believe atonement of sin through blood sacrifice either through animals and/or humans.

1. The sacrifice of Ishmael was a test for both Abraham and Ismael. Both passed the test.

2. Abraham was told to put four dead birds on four mountains and to call them and the birds would fly to him, here God was showing him the concept of resurrection. Basically, God was answering Abraham questionings.

Islam considers blood sacrifices to be a primitive concept.

Yeah I know your story but what is the basis for it, did the Hebrew do a reiteration of their story. Their story is a hell of a lot closer to the event. If I believed the event to be true, which I don't I would have to go with the Hebrew version. Furthermore I don't believe God would mess with someone's head like that nor do I believe in this test business, God having perfect knowledge has no need for tests. The Creator has no need for tests; God doesn't need to test his creations. Leave the tests for appliance makers and scientists.

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Yeah I know your story but what is the basis for it, did the Hebrew do a reiteration of their story. Their story is a hell of a lot closer to the event. If I believed the event to be true, which I don't I would have to go with the Hebrew version. Furthermore I don't believe God would mess with someone's head like that nor do I believe in this test business, God having perfect knowledge has no need for tests. The Creator has no need for tests; God doesn't need to test his creations. Leave the tests for appliance makers and scientists.

The whole Islam is based on the premises that this life is a test for afterlife. Your beliefs are yours and our beliefs are ours.

I like your quote in your post #183, "Do you mean you try to teach Muslims about their own scripture?"

I frequent lots of Islamic forums, some of them interfaith, just like ShiaChat. On one of these forum, there is a Jewish person who always reminds the Christians that TaNaKh (Old Testament) is Jewish Scripture and not Christian's Scripture, and as such the Jews know their Scripture better than the Christians and the Christians shouldn't twist the Jewish Scripture and try to teach them their own Scripture.

One always hears that Mohammad got the stories wrong. Yes, every story in the Quran, from the story of Adam to the story of Jesus, significantly differs from the TaNaKh and Gospel. Mohammad didn't get it wrong, he lived among the Semites, he is a Semite and spoke Semitic language Arabic, the only Semitic language alive during his lifetime. Hebrew was a dead language, and Aramaic was hardly spoken by then. And, surely Mohammad was not a Gentile.

So, I look at in my Scripture for stories of Adam through Mohammad. I consider the Bible to be a corrupt Scripture, therefore I don't look into a corrupt Scripture for, "Yeah I know your story but what is the basis for it, did the Hebrew do a reiteration of their story".

To me Islam is the first religion in the world, and that Hinduism, Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Christianity, Buddhism ... they all came after Islam.

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One always hears that Mohammad got the stories wrong. Yes, every story in the Quran, from the story of Adam to the story of Jesus, significantly differs from the TaNaKh and Gospel. Mohammad didn't get it wrong, he lived among the Semites, he is a Semite and spoke Semitic language Arabic, the only Semitic language alive during his lifetime. Hebrew was a dead language, and Aramaic was hardly spoken by then. And, surely Mohammad was not a Gentile.

Well if your Prophet didn't get it wrong than you mean the Hebrews got their own story wrong. That is simply absurd.

To me Islam is the first religion in the world, and that Hinduism, Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Christianity, Buddhism ... they all came after Islam.

Even here you can think what you like no matter how obviously wrong it is but I guess it means something to you to ex post facto Islam. It makes it easier to tell all the other religions they have gone wrong and only Islam has the Truth even though no one practiced Islam until the 7th century CE. If that is not why it is important to you why is it?

To make myself clear it doesn't matter to me what the oldest religion is, what the fastest growing religion is, or what the largest religion is because it is unimportant to The Truth.

My faith is not a religion; there is no dogma or doctrine, no certain way to pray or direction to face, or belief in a man raised from the dead or any of that stuff. Lastly those religions that claim they have exclusivity of The Truth are wrong.

In the beginning of humankind's consciousness there was man and his Creator no go betweens, intermediaries, Judaism, Zoroastrianism(which Judaism and Islam owe much to) or Islam no there was only man seeking his Creator which he had not even named yet. Everything after that is manmade.

You can believe what you want

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^^^^ You have been on this thread for very long time, with almost 9000 post and still don't know what Islam is?

And, that it is the belief of Islam that it is the very first religion?

The Jews didn't get it wrong, they changed their Scripture, thus Islam considers their Scripture to be corrupt like the Scripture of Christians.

God is not prejudice to send different religion and different laws on different people.

He sent the same religion, same law to all the people. Adam is the first Prophet and Mohammad is the last Prophet, so 1,400 years is no concern.

According to Imam Jaffar (as), before our Adam (generation), there are 60,000 Adams (generations).

Read some Science, the Universe is not 20,000 old nor the mankind is 20,000 old.

We human beings are not the only intelligence creation, God ever created.

Nor God's intelligence creation restricted to only this planet.

God is first and God is last, so God created emotions.

God is not bound of emotions.

But when someone makes God a creation, like human being.

Then God is bound of emotions, like a human being he is prejudice.

Then God like a human being is a bundle of emotions.

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^^^^ You have been on this thread for very long time, with almost 9000 post and still don't know what Islam is?

And, that it is the belief of Islam that it is the very first religion?

The Jews didn't get it wrong, they changed their Scripture, thus Islam considers their Scripture to be corrupt like the Scripture of Christians.

God is not prejudice to send different religion and different laws on different people.

He sent the same religion, same law to all the people. Adam is the first Prophet and Mohammad is the last Prophet, so 1,400 years is no concern.

He sent the same religion, same law to all the people. Adam is the first Prophet and Mohammad is the last Prophet, so 1,400 years is no concern.

Religion is a creation of man. People used to ask me "who was the founder, the name of the beginer of your religion?" and they could not understand when I said no one or rishis who died 5,000 thousand years ago and whatever their names were is unimportant.

I am tired of this thread and playing nice to its nonsence on both sides.

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^^^^ Good for you.

If religion is creation of man, then who created God.

Don't tell me that Hinduism is not religion.

And, Brahman is not god.

Which one is god now.

Brahman, Brahmin, or some kind of derivative of so forth.

It would be nice if you come down the pedasal you set yourself upon.

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If religion is man made then how did you arrive at this conclusion.

Brahman is "The Absolute Reality", it is the name of the Supreme.

Not Hinduisms, which started as monotheism, but turned into paganism with thousands and thousands of gods.

Brahman is "The Absolute Reality", it is the name of the Supreme.

But now through paganism we have thousands and thousands directives of Brahman.

It would be nice if you come down the pedasal you set yourself upon.

How did you find out about the founder of Hinduism, if religion is not man made.

Brahman is "The Absolute Reality", it is the name of the Supreme.

And, how did this man made religion turned into paganism with thousands and thousands of gods.

It would be nice if you come down the pedasal you set yourself upon.

Edited by aladdin

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Hi there Son,

I see they are a little confused about us and our interest here.

I guess they don’t know that the Scripture says, “Train a child up in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it.”

--- Nor, perhaps, have heard the term, “Go west, young man, go west.”

Being a “Non-combative” student of the Scriptures, I studied them for years to find the differences between the ‘denominations’ and some related religions.

--- (I guess that is why we don’t fit into the convenient molds they try to put us in.)

After 9/11, and hearing that Islam has a plan to infiltrate and take over the world, I wondered what was the motivation behind it, and why the hatred that it generated.

--- Had it been a good movement gone bad, or had it started out as a terrorist organization?

Hearing all of the negative news from both sides, --- in keeping with my study patterns, I read The Quran that I had and began to study it. Wow!

--- You, Son, had the advantage of working with some Muslims so you could confer with some of them.

And I remember that years earlier, before you went west, you invited me to go with you to pray with a Muslim that you worked with.

--- Yes we knelt down with him and prayed together. --- I guess we have had some interest from that time on.

So that would be the reason, when I had my heart attack that you asked Muslims to pray for my recovery, --- for which I thank you, and the ones who said they would, --- and others who wished me well.

--- So it comes to us today, having the privilege of answering questions and giving the truth of the Scripture on this Forum where Christians have been invited.

What is lacking is that we rarely have any Jewish input, so we end up answering questions about the OT, when that should be up to the Jews, --- and also the Muslim input from their Quran. --- Their input is all negativism and wrong statement about the former Scriptures which were 'confirmed' as ‘former Scriptures’ in the Quran.

--- I am sure there are some genuine believers who read what we write from the Scriptures and check it out for themselves, --- as we are all told to do.

The other thing is that the Bible is God’s word, and their arguments are with Him, not with us. --- It is okay with us if they simply say, “I don’t believe it.”

Then their question to themselves should be, “Did Gabriel say the same in the Gospel as is recorded in the Quran?” --- “Then should we believe it?”

--- Well, enough for now lest the ‘short span readers’ only read half of it and remain confused.

Blessings on you, Dad.

Edited by placid

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You should look into yourself first rather than 9/11.

Both World Wars 1 and 2, were started by Christians' nations, which resulted in around 300 millions deaths, and that included six millions Jews being fried alone by the Christians in Germany.

Now, how does it compare to 9/11.

One wrong doesn't make another wrong right. Neither killing of 300 millions is comparable to killing one person alone, but they are same. Killing one person is like killing the whole nation.

But this killing still continues in all Muslims countries, from Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia ......

When would this killing end.

So, instead of preaching do something about it.

Preaching is easy, but action speaks louder than words.

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Doesn't that thread end with people discrediting you and exposing your lies?

Yea, rather than reading your long accusation, read the last few posts.

lol. You mean your Christians brethren in faith, who just suddenly appeared.

Honest truth is that you don't want people to read the article posted by Mother Jones website.

Father and Son tag team has been exposed by Stealth Crusade.

Crusade it is, Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Palestine, Iran .......

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Hi Again Son,

I want to tell you what has really puzzled me, and is also quite disappointing.

We Know that the Bible was History for 600 years before Muhammad, so there's no question of it not being factual, and the Quran, being revealed to Muhammad by Gabriel, ‘who stands in the presence of God,’ (Luke 1:19), was the same Gabriel that announced the birth of John the Baptist and the virgin birth of Jesus.

--- And the Quran verifies that Jesus was the Messiah.

--- As Christians we are taught to accept Jesus as our Savior, and to follow Him. We surrender our will to the will of God and He guides us.

If Muslims don’t understand it and have not had the experience of conversion, --- that doesn’t change the fact that it happens.

--- Jesus said this in John 5:

24. “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.”

--- The new Life that comes in is the Holy Spirit of God, who re-sensitizes the conscience, and gives a sense of peace with God, and the assurance of everlasting life.

--- It says “He who hears MY words, (that is, he who hears and understands Jesus’ teaching ---,

AND BELIEVES IN HIM (GOD), WHO SENT ME (Jesus), --- has everlasting (Spiritual) life.

If we take a comparable passage from the Quran, we see this in Surah 3:

52. But when Jesus became conscious of their disbelief, he cried: Who will be my helpers in the cause of Allah? The disciples said: We will be Allah's helpers. We believe in Allah, and bear thou witness that we have surrendered (unto Him).

53. Our Lord! We believe in that which Thou hast revealed and we follow him whom Thou hast sent. Enrol us among those who witness (to the truth).

Yusuf Ali: 52. When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) God?" Said the disciples: "We are God's helpers: We believe in God, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.

53. "Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Apostle; then write us down among those who bear witness."

--- The disciples said, “Our Lord (God)! We believe in that which Thou hast revealed and we follow him (Jesus) whom Thou hast sent. Enroll us among those who witness (to the truth).”

Doesn’t that sound the same as John 5?:

24. “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him (God) who sent Me has everlasting life,”

--- Islam means ‘surrender,’ and Muslim means ‘a surrendered one,’ --- does it not? --- The disciples were ‘surrendered ones,’ and Yusuf Ali says, ‘We are Muslims.’

--- So, Son, --- since we believe the same as the disciples, I guess we are ‘Quranic Muslims,’ --- but we don’t seem to fit their present day ‘pattern.’ ????

Blessings, Dad.

Edited by placid

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Hi Dad.

I'm guessing that fathers and sons don't agree on many things in the Muslim world as I don't see any other "tag teams". It's quite interesting what we've been accused of as well. It makes me wonder why you would still be here and not out spending all that money that you make from that uh, foundation, what was it again? I'll have to ask Aladdin, he seems to know.

You need to be careful, that was the closest to preaching I've seen you do here. Why don't the Muslims agree with what you wrote?

For the same reason Mainstream Christians don't. Once it became an organized religion "scholars" started making the rules and said "you need to believe this" worship this, pray like this, etc.

Don't mention 9/11, you know how sensitive Aladdin is. He thought you were making Islam out to be some terrorist movement of today while in fact Christians have killed more people than that since the beginning of time, including the astute Christian Hitler.

I do find it interesting that the Quran should lead people to a belief in Christianity but it's all hadithed away. They say Islam was the original religion and I'm okay with that although the present day pattern tends to insist on the position you pray in as well as the direction. I haven't found that in the Quran yet but then again I haven't read it as often as you have.

What I understand is that the Quran says in the end times Christians will not grieve, which must mean they make it to Heaven. The Quran also says that we worship the same God, yet look at the separation between our God and theirs for none other reason than Hadith insists on it. It looks to me like the actual and only book they have which they insist is every word from God is not followed as you would think it should but is clouded out by hadith and tradition.

I'm a little dissappointed myself.

God bless, and Happy Turkey Day!

Oh yeah! It looks like Lilly's first tooth is just about to break through. I know...Grandma wants more, (and real) pictures.

Edited by Son of Placid

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Hi Son,

--- Good for Lilly, (our great-granddaughter).

There were a couple more things I wanted to add, but it would have made it long, so I will add it here --- which is comforting to us and it is not quite preaching,--- just quoting some verses.

As it says in Matthew 5:24, and Surah 3:53, we are to ‘hear the words of Jesus,’ and ‘believe in God, who sent Him.’ --- And in Matthew it adds that this faith leads to ‘everlasting life.’

--- And in 3:55, it confirms these verses by saying this:

55. Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

I understand that “I will take thee and raise thee,” --- refers to physical death in Arabic. --- So, after Jesus ascends He takes a position in Heaven at the right hand of God. ---

So, Quranic Muslims (surrendered ones), would be those who ‘surrendered their will to the will of God, and followed Jesus’ teaching.’

And God said, I will make them superior to those who disbelieve. --- I like to believe that this holds the promise of ‘everlasting life.’

And there is one more passage I like because it gives some wisdom that can apply to most of the Quran. --- When it says, “People of the Scriptures,” it is usually considered to mean, Jews and Christians, so you have to read the context to see if it is talking about Moses and the Children of Israel, or Jesus and the Gospel.

--- However, these verses are specific in Surah 5:

82. Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

83. And when they listen to the revelation received by the Apostle, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.

84. "What cause can we have not to believe in God and the truth which has come to us, seeing that we long for our Lord to admit us to the company of the righteous?"

85. And for this their prayer hath God rewarded them with gardens, with rivers flowing underneath, - their eternal home. Such is the recompense of those who do good.

86. But those who reject Faith and belie our Signs, - they shall be companions of Hell-fire.

--- This is why I say “Wow!” at what is written in the Quran, because it, too, says that ‘believing Christians’ are going to heaven.

Blessings, Dad.

Edited by placid

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Hi Satyaban,

Quote from Post 183:

1. Do you mean you try to teach Muslims about their own scripture? That is rather presumptive, and insulting isn't it?

Response: --- I said: ‘My interest is to have Muslims today know the truth of the Scriptures, not just what they have been taught about them.’

To quote verses is not teaching, but is ‘reminding the reader’ of what has already been taught.

2. From my perspective this says "accept what you have been told and don't ask questions." It also says God will forgive for questioning but I see nothing wrong with questioning because knowledge springs from questioning.

Response: --- Notice in the verse that it says, “But if ye ask about things when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you.”

This is the effective pattern of teaching: --- When it is being revealed, then you should ask questions on the subject and have it explained, so that there is no misunderstanding. --- (If you ‘get it’ the first time, then you won’t mislead others when you repeat what you have learned, --- and you ‘get it’ by asking questions and getting clear answers.)

3.I am asking you these questions because you posted the quotations and agree with them apparently.

Response: --- There is good teaching in these verses and La’nat was asking similar questions, so I will go over it with him later.

4. Please limit your response to your own words and don't flood me with more quotes. I only want to know your thoughts and not necessarily how you arrived at them. Okay?

Response: --- I don’t deal a lot in personal opinion. --- As most topics are on, or about, Scripture, it is important to use verses, both to know the subject, and to verify what you are saying, is it not?

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It's been many years now but I used to work the evening shift with a Muslim. During Ramadan I didn't totally observe the rituals but honoured my co-worker by spending the dinner time with him praying instead of eating with the rest. Just to make it more difficult his English was as weak as my French. None the less we talked about our beliefs with a suprisingly good understanding. We never spoke about what "religion" we followed and it didn't matter. Although our rituals and traditions differed our beliefs were impressively similar. One night in particular we both felt the Spirit of God upon us and we knew we both worshipped the same God. Was I wrong to expect the same fellowship here?

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Hi La’nat,

Quote from Post 180:

--- ‘Refrain’ --- from capitalizing the letter 'h' when referring to Jesus;

Response: --- In a number of Bibles including the one I use, the New King James, they have a system of identifying God in the OT.

When GOD or LORD are written in capitals, it refers to JEHOVAH, or YHWH

The Word Elohim is a plural word for God and is identified as God, or Lord.

In the OT prophecies, and in the NT, the Word (Logos) is always capitalized, --- even as it where capitals are used in the Quran.

In the OT and the NT the Holy Spirit is always capitalized. --- This signifies that ALMIGHTY GOD is SOVEREIGN, --- and the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit are identified as the Godhead, --- so they are capitalized.

The title Messiah in OT prophecies and in the NT, as well as in the Quran is always capitalized.

The identification of Jesus in relationship to GOD is shown in John 1:1 where it says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (or, the Word Manifested God).

1:14. “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,”

--- So the Word (Logos) Manifested God through the body and being of Jesus.

In the same way that the Word is capitalized and identified as masculine in Scripture, ‘He’ is capitalized. --- So since the Word was in Jesus, then Jesus is always referred to with the capital H, --- as: He, the Word, --- He, the Messiah, or He who was CALLED the Son of God.

Concerning the birth of Jesus, it says in Matthew 1:

21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.”

22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying:

23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

--- (The name Jesus means Savior. --- And Immanuel meant “God with us,” or “God is with us” --- The indwelling Word was the Manifestation of God through Jesus.)

2:1 Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem,

2 saying, “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him.”

11 And when they had come into the house, they saw the young Child with Mary His mother, and fell down and worshiped Him. And when they had opened their treasures, they presented gifts to Him: gold, frankincense, and myrrh.

--- (They worshiped Him as “God’s anointed” the promised “King of the Jews” --- their Messiah.)

--- So He was identified as Jesus, meaning ‘Savior,’ --- and Christ, meaning ‘Messiah,’ so He was ‘Jesus, the Christ,’ the Savior/Messiah, --- and was CALLED the Son of God.

When I quote verses from the Quran where it says he, I don’t change it, so neither do I change what is already written in the former Scriptures, --- nor do I change it when I honor Him as the Manifestation of God, the Sign that God gave to the world,

--- As it says in Surah 3:

50. --- “I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.

51. It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight."

Placid

Edited by placid

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Hi La’nat,

Responding to Post 184:

---Referring to Surah 5: 101. O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, God will forgive those: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing.

102. Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.

Quote: That verse was talking about questions that 'pain' (yu'thookum) you; in other words, unnecessary questions that only cause anger and discord. It's not saying questions shouldn't be asked for all...questioning for enlightenment is no sin and there are plenty of verses in the Quran that are a response to muslims' queries concerning the ritual side of Islam and what is rightfully considered lawful and unlawful.

Response: --- You are right. The first questions are perhaps troubling, or asked with wrong intent. Verse 102 indicates that some have asked this type of questions and didn’t understand or, perhaps didn't accept the answers and lost their faith.

But the middle part of 101 is as you say, the way that we learn.

Like I said to Satyaban

:

--- Notice in the verse that it says, “But if ye ask about things when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you.”

This is the effective pattern of teaching: --- When the message is being revealed, then you should ask questions on the subject and have it explained, so that there is no misunderstanding. --- (If you ‘get it’ the first time, then you won’t mislead others when you repeat what you have learned, --- and you ‘get it’ by asking questions and getting clear answers. --- God will forgive [and no doubt be patient with] those who are slow to understand)

Edited by placid

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Hi Son,

You expressed our sentiment in Post 203, when you said:

It's been many years now but I used to work the evening shift with a Muslim. During Ramadan I didn't totally observe the rituals but honoured my co-worker by spending the dinner time with him praying instead of eating with the rest. Just to make it more difficult his English was as weak as my French. None the less we talked about our beliefs with a suprisingly good understanding. We never spoke about what "religion" we followed and it didn't matter. Although our rituals and traditions differed our beliefs were impressively similar. One night in particular we both felt the Spirit of God upon us and we knew we both worshipped the same God. Was I wrong to expect the same fellowship here?

--- When I came first, I was told that to understand Islam I should read the Quran, which I did. --- And I came with the same pure motive of asking and answering questions on a friendly basis for the mutual benefit of all.

It seems though that every topic has to be confrontational with constant criticism of Christians. I remember the prayer time we had with your co-worker and I felt an affinity, or ‘connection’ with him, --- and I say the same, “Were we wrong to expect the same fellowship here?”

--- On the topic, ‘Non-Muslim view of Muhammad,’ Shi was expecting the same response from us as is common in the world, but after expressing our opinion, it left little to object to.

However, after mentioning the sharp pen and the sharp sword, --- in Post 15 he explained the video in Post 1 as being the scene of a Mubahala.

Quote: The Mubahala event has been mentioned in the Holy Quran. Refer to the “Mubahala” Ayah.

4. As for the group of 5 coming to the challenge, it is none other than the Holy Prophet , Imam Ali, his wife Fatima Zahra and their 2 sons Hassan and Hussain peace and blessings be upon them all. They were slowly approaching the scene where the challenge took place, put a mat on the floor and sat to begin the Mubahala. End of quote.

--- So Muhammad brought his family, the five of his household, who are called the Ahlul Bayt, and would have had a disciplined debate with the challengers.

--- This is the context where it is mentioned In Surah 3:

55. Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

56. "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

57. "As to those who believe and work righteousness, God will pay them (in full) their reward; but God loveth not those who do wrong."

58 "This is what we rehearse unto thee of the Signs and the Message of Wisdom."

59. The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.

60. The Truth (comes) from God alone; so be not of those who doubt.

61. If any one disputes in this matter with thee, now after (full) knowledge Hath come to thee, say: "Come! let us gather together, - our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves: Then let us earnestly pray, and invoke the curse of God on those who lie!"

62. This is the true account: There is no god except God; and God - He is indeed the Exalted in Power, the Wise.

--- Isn’t it interesting that these ‘father-son’ teams were going to discuss the same subject that this topic is (as most are), about --- ‘Jesus’?

I would welcome such a challenge, but perhaps on a different subject from the Bible or the Quran (or both), with no thought of any ‘curse’ attached to it.

But I would rather debate with some we have met before, like, Kadhim, Qa’im, PeaceLoving, --- and perhaps Shi, himself. --- And it would not be for winners or losers, but for mutual understanding.

Placid

Edited by placid

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Words have several meaning. Please ask him the meaning of eloh which is a singular and elohim is a plural.

Simple and then come back to me.

BTW, there is no mention of "virgin" in Isaiah and also theer is no mention of "Lucifer" ins Isaiah. Lucifer is a Greek/Latin.

It is possible that im in elohim is not plural pronoun, but a hebrew majestic plural or "royal we".

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It is possible that im in elohim is not plural pronoun, but a hebrew majestic plural or "royal we".

Salam brother,

Hebrew is a very primitive language and it was dead long, long before Jesus was born. Hebrew was revived from Arabic in 19th century. The only way to make plural in Hebrew is to add, "im" to the noun.

However, all the Semitic languages don't have capital letters, so when a noun needs to emphasized or a proper noun to be written, then the definite article "the" is written in front of the noun to be emphasized and/or in front of the proper noun. Thus, "el, al, ha" are the definite article "the".

eloh/elah means god, powerful, judge, mighty and so forth. So when we put "al" in front of "elah", it becomes "al elah or Allah".

So, you are right that elohim is a majestic plural or "royal we". When the Jews refer to their monotheistic God, Elohim, they use a singular verb with it. And, when the Jews refer to the pagan gods, elohim, they use the plural verb with it.

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Salam brother,

Hebrew is a very primitive language and it was dead long, long before Jesus was born. Hebrew was revived from Arabic in 19th century. The only way to make plural in Hebrew is to add, "im" to the noun.

However, all the Semitic languages don't have capital letters, so when a noun needs to emphasized or a proper noun to be written, then the definite article "the" is written in front of the noun to be emphasized and/or in front of the proper noun. Thus, "el, al, ha" are the definite article "the".

eloh/elah means god, powerful, judge, mighty and so forth. So when we put "al" in front of "elah", it becomes "al elah or Allah".

So, you are right that elohim is a majestic plural or "royal we". When the Jews refer to their monotheistic God, Elohim, they use a singular verb with it. And, when the Jews refer to the pagan gods, elohim, they use the plural verb with it.

Salam,

I dont know if the Jews have gods. Who are they?

How could the Jews have monotheistic God and pagan gods at the same time?

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Salam,

I dont know if the Jews have gods. Who are they?

How could the Jews have monotheistic God and pagan gods at the same time?

Salam brother,

Jews are very Monotheistic like Muslims. eloh/elah is singular and means god, judge, powerful, mighty and so forth. elohim is plural and means gods, judges, powerful ones, mighty ones and so forth. Remember, the Semitic languages don't have capital letters, therefore the Jews used elohim as a majestic plural or "royal we" to refer to their Monotheistic God. But the god of idol worshiper was referred as eloh, and gods of the idol worshipers were referred as elohim.

Thus, in the TaNaKh (Old Testament) one will find as such:

If the Monotheistic God of Jew is Commanding, one will find, elohim is commanding.

If the idol worshipers gods are Commanding, one will find, elohim are commanding.

If the idol worshipers god is Commanding, one will find, eloh is commanding.

But, if one wants to say My God is Judaism, one will find, elohi for My God.

And, if one wants to say My God in Islam, one will find, elahi for My God. Allahi will be the wrong format for My Allah. Instead of using the a majestic plural or "royal we" to refer to the Monotheistic God, Islam used "al" in front of elah to make "al elah" or "Allah". Allah a very unique noun but some call it a proper noun.

In Islam elah is used to refer to Allah and elah is also used to refer to ruler, judge, powerful, mighty and so forth. Refer to chapter 114, verse 3 where Allah is referred to as elah.

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