Hadith

[Kamranistan]

(bismillah)

(salam)

All different 'sects' of Islam have their own hadith and when a discussion between one sect and another takes place, for example shi'a and sunni. Even before the discussion takes place, they most likely probably know that the other would not give in and accept the others points. This is due to the fact that we all have our OWN Hadith that backs up our school of thought, If I said to a sunni look this hadith says 'etc etc' he'll reply by showing me a hadith from his sources and this will just go on and on until you're going round in circles.

I'm trying to say that, today, there are so many fabricated hadith that it is near impossible to sway a knowledgeable sunni (for example).

Therefore, to achieve anything you must first use pure logic and that is what other schools of thought just do not do because they are told not to and to just accept the hadith e.g. ones about abu bakr being superior.

So it is becoming harder to 'prove' something using sources of hadith due to the intense fabrications out there.. So we must try to put forward logic first of all and get somewhere that way, so lay the grounds of a discussion by not using hadith at all. Then bring in hadith to back up the logic afterwards.

That is the way it seems to me.. It's like talking to a brick wall. lol

(wasalam)

Edited September 9, 2011 by Kamran-Syed

[Yasoob Al Deen]

Alot of people think that hadeeths > reasoning.

Alternative methods:

Or refer to each other's hadeeths to prove your own position. Something that many Imamis do. E.g. look at how Umar said in the two Saheehs that Ali bin Abi Talib (aleyhis salam) thought that Abu Bakr as a liar and sinful when he denied Fadak to the daughter of the Prophet.

Or refer to incidents found in both books.

(wasalam)

[Orion]

you can also show sunnis hadith from sunni books to prove that shia faith is correct.

[Ali H Syed]

you can also show sunnis hadith from sunni books to prove that shia faith is correct.

orion when you do this, they seem to suddenly then say, that particular hadith is false... LOL

(bismillah)

[Shia_Debater]

orion when you do this, they seem to suddenly then say, that particular hadith is false... LOL

(bismillah)

loooooool nah not even this is what they say "you dirty rawafidh ill talk about this topic later on and prove why your wrong" ...

1 week later still no reply ...

[Ali H Syed]

loooooool nah not even this is what they say "you dirty rawafidh ill talk about this topic later on and prove why your wrong" ...

1 week later still no reply ...

just curious did you see that challenge on the wahabis? and people were just waiting for a reply? on omar and ther view of his greatness, has there been a reply yet lol?

(bismillah)

Edited September 9, 2011 by Ali H Syed

[Shia_Debater]

just curious did you see that challenge on the wahabis? and people were just waiting for a reply? or omar and ther view of his greatness, has there been a reply yet lol?

(bismillah)

which wahabi challenge?

I might know what ur talking about but im not 100% sure

[Ali H Syed]

which wahabi challenge?

I might know what ur talking about but im not 100% sure

il try find the link

(bismillah)

[Shia_Debater]

JazakAllah Khair :)

[Ali H Syed]

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/234993102-to-salafiwahabi-is-umar-your-real-prophet/page__fromsearch__1

take a read of that :)

(bismillah)

[Dina]

It may simply be better to adhere to the Qur'an - and use it as the source, rather than the Ahadith. Kalaam-Allah precedes and supercedes all words and works of men. Wisdom flows from Allah SWT - Al-Hakeem - so any discussion must be characterized by the wisdom which patiance, compassion, humility and tolerance bring. Logic is useless if it is merely being used to prove one's own agenda, stance or interests. That is certainly not the purpose of logic. Its principle purpose is to ensure Reason is able to seek out, acknowledge and comprehend the Truth.

Most argumentation amongst the sects relates to historical incidents and events - which came after the Revelations. So employing Ahadith to prove who said what when and where, is pretty close to attempting to employ hearsay testimony in a court of law - such evidence is never accepted. Thus, all those true seekers after the Truth ought to refrain from arguing about history - Allah SWT created Jinn and Insaan to worship HIM - Q51:56 - and not to engage in futile, fruitless, never-ending, self-defeating sectarian conflicts.

Wa Llahu 'Alam

[Ali H Syed]

Allah SWT created Jinn and Insaan to worship HIM - Q51:56 - and not to engage in futile, fruitless, never-ending, self-defeating sectarian conflicts.

Wa Llahu 'Alam

agreed but Allah sbwt also taught us to stand for truth and justice, and in my eyes, trying to guide my muslim brothers, and defend attacks upon my faith is a starting point of defending the truth

(bismillah)

[Kamranistan]

It may simply be better to adhere to the Qur'an - and use it as the source, rather than the Ahadith. Kalaam-Allah precedes and supercedes all words and works of men. Wisdom flows from Allah SWT - Al-Hakeem - so any discussion must be characterized by the wisdom which patiance, compassion, humility and tolerance bring. Logic is useless if it is merely being used to prove one's own agenda, stance or interests. That is certainly not the purpose of logic. Its principle purpose is to ensure Reason is able to seek out, acknowledge and comprehend the Truth.

Most argumentation amongst the sects relates to historical incidents and events - which came after the Revelations. So employing Ahadith to prove who said what when and where, is pretty close to attempting to employ hearsay testimony in a court of law - such evidence is never accepted. Thus, all those true seekers after the Truth ought to refrain from arguing about history - Allah SWT created Jinn and Insaan to worship HIM - Q51:56 - and not to engage in futile, fruitless, never-ending, self-defeating sectarian conflicts.

Wa Llahu 'Alam

Yes using the qu'ran as well, but of course they have their own tafsir, so that won't work unless they aren't that knowledgable so hadith and logic must be used a long side it. And yes if the argument is going no where you should stop. So what is the best way to go about it? So that it doesnt become pointless. How would you lot do it? My point is hadith are becoming increasingly disregarded by the sects in terms of the shi'a hadith to sunni vice versa. Because we have ours they have theirs and even if they have hadith that indicate in ahlulbayt (as) favour and against the 3 they eill pull out a contradictary hadith so that is negated.

[Dina]

Yes using the qu'ran as well, but of course they have their own tafsir, so that won't work unless they aren't that knowledgable so hadith and logic must be used a long side it. And yes if the argument is going no where you should stop. So what is the best way to go about it? So that it doesnt become pointless. How would you lot do it? My point is hadith are becoming increasingly disregarded by the sects in terms of the shi'a hadith to sunni vice versa. Because we have ours they have theirs and even if they have hadith that indicate in ahlulbayt (as) favour and against the 3 they eill pull out a contradictary hadith so that is negated.

Brother, Tafseer is simply personal commentary, interpretation and explanation of the Qur'an. It hardly rises to the level of Kalaam-Allah, now does it?

Yes, each sect has its own set of Ahadith, schools of thought and scholarly exegesis of the Qur'an. However, it is important for every thinking believer to read, study and seek to comprehend Kitaab-Allah for him or herself. The Ahadith may well be fabricated, as you have rightly pointed out. The schools of thought are simply that - schools of thought. And scholarly explanations of the Qur'an are bound, by their very nature, to be subjective.

The point I wish to make is a simple one: either Shi'aa or Sunnis discuss that which they agree upon, and leave aside all sectarian differences for Allah SWT to sort out and judge on Judgment Day, or continue to engage in pointless and futile disputes - thereby increasing and intensifying the divisions which have brought Muslims to humiliation and disgrace - and which benefit none except the enemies of Islam.

Let us remember that it was Kalaam-Allah which united the disparate, eternally warring Arab tribes - and nothing and no-one has the Power to bring Muslims together except Allah SWT. Not sects, scholars and schools of thought.

I do not belong to any sect - but take from all sources whatever seems reasonable and true. I am happy to simply be a Muslimah - Uhibbu-Llah.

Surah 3 Al-'Imraan, Verse 103

And hold fast, all of you together, to the Rope of Allah, and be not divided among yourselves, and remember Allah's Favour upon you, for you were enemies one to another but HE joined your hearts together, so that, by HIS Grace, you became brethren, and you were on the brink of a pit of Fire, and HE saved you from it. Thus Allah makes HIS Ayaat clear to you that you may be guided.

Wa Llahu 'Alam

[Ali H Syed]

Brother, Tafseer is simply personal commentary, interpretation and explanation of the Qur'an. It hardly rises to the level of Kalaam-Allah, now does it?

Yes, each sect has its own set of Ahadith, schools of thought and scholarly exegesis of the Qur'an. However, it is important for every thinking believer to read, study and seek to comprehend Kitaab-Allah for him or herself. The Ahadith may well be fabricated, as you have rightly pointed out. The schools of thought are simply that - schools of thought. And scholarly explanations of the Qur'an are bound, by their very nature, to be subjective.

The point I wish to make is a simple one: either Shi'aa or Sunnis discuss that which they agree upon, and leave aside all sectarian differences for Allah SWT to sort out and judge on Judgment Day, or continue to engage in pointless and futile disputes - thereby increasing and intensifying the divisions which have brought Muslims to humiliation and disgrace - and which benefit none except the enemies of Islam.

Let us remember that it was Kalaam-Allah which united the disparate, eternally warring Arab tribes - and nothing and no-one has the Power to bring Muslims together except Allah SWT. Not sects, scholars and schools of thought.

I do not belong to any sect - but take from all sources whatever seems reasonable and true. I am happy to simply be a Muslimah - Uhibbu-Llah.

Surah 3 Al-'Imraan, Verse 103

And hold fast, all of you together, to the Rope of Allah, and be not divided among yourselves, and remember Allah's Favour upon you, for you were enemies one to another but HE joined your hearts together, so that, by HIS Grace, you became brethren, and you were on the brink of a pit of Fire, and HE saved you from it. Thus Allah makes HIS Ayaat clear to you that you may be guided.

Wa Llahu 'Alam

that is all fine, but simply, if you do not show love for the ahyulayt, and follow the teachings of the imams, and do not believe in imam mahdi as return, then you will find it very very very difficult to enter heaven brother, without the ahlulbayt one is lost

(bismillah)

[Dina]

that is all fine, but simply, if you do not show love for the ahyulayt, and follow the teachings of the imams, and do not believe in imam mahdi as return, then you will find it very very very difficult to enter heaven brother, without the ahlulbayt one is lost

(bismillah)

Brother, I do not think you are in any position to tell me who it is incumbent upon me to love or by what quantity. For your kind information - which I am not obliged to share with you on a public forum, but do so out of respect for you as my brother in Faith and Religion - I love all believers of the past and present, irrespective of their sect. Naturally, the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), being the Spiritual Father of the Ummah, is the most beloved of all - and I am reasonably certain that every true and sincere Muslim has great love for his righteous family members and descendants. However, I also love all the Prophets who preceded the Prophet Muhammad (pbut) - they were all the blessed and noble Messengers of Allah SWT.

But - I do not love any single human being - no matter his exalted status (and not even my parents) more than I love Allah SWT - Who is my Beloved One, I would be lost without HIM and HIS Guidance. Allah SWT is the Beloved One of all creation and creatures. Obviously, seeing as HE is Al-Khaaliq, The Creator -

Bismi-Llahi-R-Rahmani-R-Raheem

Surah 2 Al-Baqarah, Verse 165

And yet there are people who choose to believe in beings that allegedly rival Allah, loving them as (only) Allah should be loved: whereas those who have attained to Faith love Allah more than all else.

Believers leave judgment as to who will and will not enter Paradise to Allah SWT. Neither I nor you nor anyone else has the right or authority to either pre-empt or presume to know Allah SWT 's Judgment or Knowledge or Will.

I have also been informed by Muslims - ie. Sunnis - that Jannat is their exclusive preserve. This is similar to the claim of the Jews and Christians that only Jews or Christians will gain Heaven - which assertion has been categorically rejected by Allah SWT in the Qur'an - Q2:111, 135.

Thus do People of The Book, all of them - including Muslims, Jews and Christians - seek to confine and limit the Grace and Mercy of Allah SWT -

Bismi -Llahi-R-Rahmani-R-Raheem

Surah 2 Al-Baqarah, Verse 62

Verily, those who have attained to Faith (in this Divine Writ) as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Christians, and the Sabians - all who believe in Allah and the Last Day and do righteous deeds - shall have their reward with their Sustainer; and no fear shall they have and neither shall they grieve.

This Statement is repeated in Q5:69 - the very fact that it has been repeated reveals its supreme importance. Thus, the criteria for attaining rewards with Allah SWT has been clearly enunciated and enumerated in the Verse.

I am firmly non-sectarian and intend to remain that way, in sha Allah Ta'aala. Fortunately, Allah SWT is the Judge of humankind - and not humankind itself. Had judgment been left to them, none would have any possibility or hope of entering the Mercy of Allah SWT except for a select few. Hasbee-Allah.

As Salaamu 'Alaykum

(Ps - do ponder the Verses of Allah SWT I have quoted, instead of focusing on my words. For nothing is truer nor greater than Kalaam-Allah. Btw, it is Sister, not brother)

[Kamranistan]

Brother, I do not think you are in any position to tell me who it is incumbent upon me to love or by what quantity. For your kind information - which I am not obliged to share with you on a public forum, but do so out of respect for you as my brother in Faith and Religion - I love all believers of the past and present, irrespective of their sect. Naturally, the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), being the Spiritual Father of the Ummah, is the most beloved of all - and I am reasonably certain that every true and sincere Muslim has great love for his righteous family members and descendants. However, I also love all the Prophets who preceded the Prophet Muhammad (pbut) - they were all the blessed and noble Messengers of Allah SWT.

But - I do not love any single human being - no matter his exalted status (and not even my parents) more than I love Allah SWT - Who is my Beloved One, I would be lost without HIM and HIS Guidance. Allah SWT is the Beloved One of all creation and creatures. Obviously, seeing as HE is Al-Khaaliq, The Creator -

Bismi-Llahi-R-Rahmani-R-Raheem

Surah 2 Al-Baqarah, Verse 165

And yet there are people who choose to believe in beings that allegedly rival Allah, loving them as (only) Allah should be loved: whereas those who have attained to Faith love Allah more than all else.

Believers leave judgment as to who will and will not enter Paradise to Allah SWT. Neither I nor you nor anyone else has the right or authority to either pre-empt or presume to know Allah SWT 's Judgment or Knowledge or Will.

I have also been informed by Muslims - ie. Sunnis - that Jannat is their exclusive preserve. This is similar to the claim of the Jews and Christians that only Jews or Christians will gain Heaven - which assertion has been categorically rejected by Allah SWT in the Qur'an - Q2:111, 135.

Thus do People of The Book, all of them - including Muslims, Jews and Christians - seek to confine and limit the Grace and Mercy of Allah SWT -

Bismi -Llahi-R-Rahmani-R-Raheem

Surah 2 Al-Baqarah, Verse 62

Verily, those who have attained to Faith (in this Divine Writ) as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Christians, and the Sabians - all who believe in Allah and the Last Day and do righteous deeds - shall have their reward with their Sustainer; and no fear shall they have and neither shall they grieve.

This Statement is repeated in Q5:69 - the very fact that it has been repeated reveals its supreme importance. Thus, the criteria for attaining rewards with Allah SWT has been clearly enunciated and enumerated in the Verse.

I am firmly non-sectarian and intend to remain that way, in sha Allah Ta'aala. Fortunately, Allah SWT is the Judge of humankind - and not humankind itself. Had judgment been left to them, none would have any possibility or hope of entering the Mercy of Allah SWT except for a select few. Hasbee-Allah.

As Salaamu 'Alaykum

(Ps - do ponder the Verses of Allah SWT I have quoted, instead of focusing on my words. For nothing is truer nor greater than Kalaam-Allah. Btw, it is Sister, not brother)

eh, we're getting a bit side tracked here :P I know what you're saying, tolerance is key. And no of course we can't pass judgement, Ali wasn't saying that btw. I think he just meant ahlulbayt is the true islam.

But anyways, my OP wasn't about sect/no sect argument, it was simply about hadith and how nowadays it is difficult to make someone accept a hadith contrary to their belief even if it makes perfect logical sense and is in line with the holy Qu'ran.

Edited September 11, 2011 by Kamran-Syed

[mohammad2020]

Brother, I do not think you are in any position to tell me who it is incumbent upon me to love or by what quantity.

Good point!

[Ali H Syed]

Brother, I do not think you are in any position to tell me who it is incumbent upon me to love or by what quantity. For your kind information - which I am not obliged to share with you on a public forum, but do so out of respect for you as my brother in Faith and Religion - I love all believers of the past and present, irrespective of their sect. Naturally, the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), being the Spiritual Father of the Ummah, is the most beloved of all - and I am reasonably certain that every true and sincere Muslim has great love for his righteous family members and descendants. However, I also love all the Prophets who preceded the Prophet Muhammad (pbut) - they were all the blessed and noble Messengers of Allah SWT.

But - I do not love any single human being - no matter his exalted status (and not even my parents) more than I love Allah SWT - Who is my Beloved One, I would be lost without HIM and HIS Guidance. Allah SWT is the Beloved One of all creation and creatures. Obviously, seeing as HE is Al-Khaaliq, The Creator -

Bismi-Llahi-R-Rahmani-R-Raheem

Surah 2 Al-Baqarah, Verse 165

And yet there are people who choose to believe in beings that allegedly rival Allah, loving them as (only) Allah should be loved: whereas those who have attained to Faith love Allah more than all else.

Believers leave judgment as to who will and will not enter Paradise to Allah SWT. Neither I nor you nor anyone else has the right or authority to either pre-empt or presume to know Allah SWT 's Judgment or Knowledge or Will.

I have also been informed by Muslims - ie. Sunnis - that Jannat is their exclusive preserve. This is similar to the claim of the Jews and Christians that only Jews or Christians will gain Heaven - which assertion has been categorically rejected by Allah SWT in the Qur'an - Q2:111, 135.

Thus do People of The Book, all of them - including Muslims, Jews and Christians - seek to confine and limit the Grace and Mercy of Allah SWT -

Bismi -Llahi-R-Rahmani-R-Raheem

Surah 2 Al-Baqarah, Verse 62

Verily, those who have attained to Faith (in this Divine Writ) as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Christians, and the Sabians - all who believe in Allah and the Last Day and do righteous deeds - shall have their reward with their Sustainer; and no fear shall they have and neither shall they grieve.

This Statement is repeated in Q5:69 - the very fact that it has been repeated reveals its supreme importance. Thus, the criteria for attaining rewards with Allah SWT has been clearly enunciated and enumerated in the Verse.

I am firmly non-sectarian and intend to remain that way, in sha Allah Ta'aala. Fortunately, Allah SWT is the Judge of humankind - and not humankind itself. Had judgment been left to them, none would have any possibility or hope of entering the Mercy of Allah SWT except for a select few. Hasbee-Allah.

As Salaamu 'Alaykum

(Ps - do ponder the Verses of Allah SWT I have quoted, instead of focusing on my words. For nothing is truer nor greater than Kalaam-Allah. Btw, it is Sister, not brother)

and i dont need confirmation on what you want to hear or not, i am simply telling you the truth. your "opinion" is irrelavant to me. and not once did i say love a human more than Allah sbwt, so theres no need to tell me that, thankyou. i pray for my brothers of faith in other sects to be guided.

(bismillah)