Hijab Fetish :)

[Waiting for HIM]

I look at the purpose of why Allah has said something in the Quran, and regard this more importantly than the corresponding action. (I'd like to have a deeper discussion about what the Quran says - both its literal meaning and tafseer. Perhaps some other time and place where I wont be judged and insulted for airing my views.)

Didn't Allah ask for action and purpose both. Why would you pick one and drop other?

Also please do not feel insulted and judged. But discussions, definitely bring it on..

Edited September 12, 2011 by Waiting for HIM

[_jen_]

With all due respect, could you please explain what is so wrong with standing a "little" out. You are 50% of population, so there you go, the chances for you to stand out are already 2x. Then you are more likely wheatish, not white for sure i,e, Caucasian. So even if non-Caucasians are 10% of UK population, your chances of standing out are 9 out of 10. (notice we are doing reverse math here, the higher a minority you are, the more chances you have to stand out). Ok so this whole stand out or not wanting to stand out thing is flawed. It tells a lot about your self perception. And like always Islam and those who follow at least this part of Islam, i.e. Hijab stand to win in just their self respect thing. And why would you blame a MAN who is attracted to the winning side?

Also just to clarify, we are not talking here to wear abaya or a big black chador. We are talking about covering your hair. You are covering the rest already as you are saying you are modest in jeans and skirts and what not.

Compromising ones modesty is one of the reasons I do not like to stand out. Other reasons include, safety and earning a living.

Please do not feel insulted and judged. But discussions, definitely bring it on..

Im sorry for being so blatant, but you are one of the people for why I will refuse to go into a discussion on my beliefs about the Quran. And also those others who question the sincerity of my beliefs, the level of my imaan and the level of my Quranic knowledge. Regardless, i take comfort in knowing Allah is the only true judge and I know my intentions are pure.

[ImAli]

I know someone who used to wear hijab then took it off :shaytan: . Everyone was shocked (big taboo to wear it then take it off)

Edited September 12, 2011 by ImAli

[Waiting for HIM]

Compromising ones modesty is one of the reasons I do not like to stand out. Other reasons include, safety and earning a living.

Im sorry for being so blatant, but you are one of the people for why I will refuse to go into a discussion on my beliefs about the Quran. And also those others who question the sincerity of my beliefs, the level of my imaan and the level of my Quranic knowledge. Regardless, i take comfort in knowing Allah is the only true judge and I know my intentions are pure.

Ok so you rejected half of us on SC. <just kidding>. I have been told many times that I've deterrent powers against those who like to slice and dice the message and take the ones of their choosing and rejecting some if it does not fit their personal version of Islam. I'll take it as a compliment.

The Testiness, the spicy-ness, the tangy-ness apart, we all are brothers and sisters in religion, so no hard feelings. We all have our flaws and are not here to let anyone down or feel bad about themselves. But understand that religion is something we all hold supreme, at time bigger than our selves, so the emotions do tend to seep in every once in a while.

Cheers and have a great day. Come again some day and debate with some other members. I promise I won't say anything, just read :). [Oh just warn in advance that you don't want my tangy opinions]

Edited September 12, 2011 by Waiting for HIM

[JimJam]

I look at the purpose of why Allah has said something in the Quran, and regard this more importantly than the corresponding action. (I'd like to have a deeper discussion about what the Quran says - both its literal meaning and tafseer. Perhaps some other time and place where I wont be judged and insulted for airing my views.)

People will pass judgment on everything that comes to their attention. Thats how people are. However I hope you haven't felt insulted over something I said.

[Praetorius]

I look at the purpose of why Allah has said something in the Quran, and regard this more importantly than the corresponding action. (I'd like to have a deeper discussion about what the Quran says - both its literal meaning and tafseer. Perhaps some other time and place where I wont be judged and insulted for airing my views.)

Looking back and reflecting on what I wrote, I feel I may have been speaking to you in a demeaning manner. My apologies for being judgmental. Inshallah all is well with you.

[Ya Aba 3abdillah]

^ arghhh, that's #2 that submits, what is wrong with you pplllll ?!?!?!

[Praetorius]

^ arghhh, that's #2 that submits, what is wrong with you pplllll ?!?!?!

I thought judgmentalism=PHAILZ???? :wacko:

[Waiting for HIM]

Ok so you rejected half of us on SC. <just kidding>. I have been told many times that I've deterrent powers against those who like to slice and dice the message and take the ones of their choosing and rejecting some if it does not fit their personal version of Islam. I'll take it as a compliment.

The Testiness, the spicy-ness, the tangy-ness apart, we all are brothers and sisters in religion, so no hard feelings. We all have our flaws and are not here to let anyone down or feel bad about themselves. But understand that religion is something we all hold supreme, at time bigger than our selves, so the emotions do tend to seep in every once in a while.

Cheers and have a great day. Come again some day and debate with some other members. I promise I won't say anything, just read :). [Oh just warn in advance that you don't want my tangy opinions]

LOL - to Ya Aba comments. I for one have not been judgmental or at least I refuse to accept it. I've been blatant, tangy, crude, to the point, serious, funny, poking, pinching, tickling, but have not been judgmental with you at least sister Jen.

I would love you to come and discuss your perception of hijab from more knowledgeable sc members here, and I'll try to hold my peace until of course I come under the spell of this SHIA itch of putting my share of amr-bil-maroof and nahi-alil-munkir.

[Ya Aba 3abdillah]

I thought judgmentalism=PHAILZ???? :wacko:

most of the time yeh, but not against scorpions that will wrap you around their pinky and kick you around like a football, you show no mercy to these people, coz if you lower your guard, you're as good as gone man. Life Lessons 101

[_jen_]

Hi

I feel it extremely insulting to be spoken about in this way, not just because i have made a conscious effort with my akhlaq and have not attacked anyone, but because I am spoken about and mocked like I am some piece of filth by so called brothers, and an admin of a shia website at that. I'm clearly not as religious as you all, but I am a human being deserving of at least a little bit of respect. I'm not one to preach as you well know, but Imam Ali did say that a person is either your brother in faith or equal in humanity.

Wallahi, though this is only the internet and though it was partly expected, I feel every word you call me or mock me with.

Just a polite request - please don't call me "sister", since I believe this term should be used if you would actually treat a woman like your own sister

JimJam - no need to worry

Wassalaam

Jen

Edited September 13, 2011 by _jen_

[ImAli]

Hi

I feel it extremely insulting to be spoken about in this way, not just because i have made a conscious effort with my akhlaq and have not attacked anyone, but because I am spoken about and mocked like I am some piece of filth by so called brothers, and an admin of a shia website at that. I'm clearly not as religious as you all, but I am a human being deserving of at least a little bit of respect. I'm not one to preach as you well know, but Imam Ali did say that a person is either your brother in faith or equal in humanity.

Wallahi, though this is only the internet and though it was partly expected, I feel every word you call me or mock me with.

Just a polite request - please don't call me "sister", since I believe this term should be used if you would actually treat a woman like your own sister

JimJam - no need to worry

Wassalaam

Jen

Don't take it to heart....just go read the age thread in general off topic.

[Ya Aba 3abdillah]

and an admin of a shia website at that.

awww, boohoo

I thought judgmentalism=PHAILZ???? :wacko:

see how it's done bro ;)

[Marbles]

Why is that people like to impose their religious preferences and modes of thinking on those who disagree, regardless of the reason of disagreement? All you need to do is to speak what you think and present it in the best manners possible, be respectful and let your opponent have space to breath. Muslims are so keen spreading religion and correcting the ways of the 'deviants' that they let go of one of the fundamental cores of the religion, ie, good akhlaq.

This irony is lost on Muslims today. No wonder we are a messed up community.

Jen has been respectful despite being attacked and ridiculed. Yet a few "practicing" guys in this thread found it a good thing to round her and pounce.

[Waiting for HIM]

Hi

I feel it extremely insulting to be spoken about in this way, not just because i have made a conscious effort with my akhlaq and have not attacked anyone, but because I am spoken about and mocked like I am some piece of filth by so called brothers, and an admin of a shia website at that. I'm clearly not as religious as you all, but I am a human being deserving of at least a little bit of respect. I'm not one to preach as you well know, but Imam Ali did say that a person is either your brother in faith or equal in humanity.

Wallahi, though this is only the internet and though it was partly expected, I feel every word you call me or mock me with.

Just a polite request - please don't call me "sister", since I believe this term should be used if you would actually treat a woman like your own sister

Wassalaam

Jen

Salam Sister Jen, Could you please put the pieces of posts which you think were judgmental about you from the rest of us.

Like I said earlier, religion is so personal to all of us that we all become emotional in making our points. Personally I did not see once where any one of us were judgmental about anyone at least in this topic. Could you please kindly elaborate what made you feel that anyone of us were judgmental. Understand that some of our definitions of being judgmental could be different as well.

I'm not rubbing it or anything, just want to see what makes you mad so some of us could be cautions next time we write something in response to your comments.

awww, boohoo

see how it's done bro ;)

YaAba' if you ever show up in the courts of Judge Judi, she will literally pitchfork you, nail you, put you in the same lockup with Frankenstein, crucify you, bury you neck deep in the sand, send you off with a one legged pirate, you male chauvinist Muslim Arab speaking towel head ... Bro

(like the rest of us :wub: )

[Ya Aba 3abdillah]

YaAba' if you ever show up in the courts of Judge Judi, she will literally pitchfork you, nail you, put you in the same lockup with Frankenstein, crucify you, bury you neck deep in the sand, send you off with a one legged pirate, you male chauvinist Muslim Arab speaking towel head ... Bro

(like the rest of us :wub: )

LOL, would love to have a head-to-head with her :shaytan:

any woman that tries to eat a guy alive through their contumacious bullying words that leave innocent boys mentally violated, need to be squished and their claws spited. :shaytan:

don't get me wrong, jen's really kewl lol, but those poor guys man, they're not match for her lol

[ImAli]

Judge Judy and Nancy Grace are running close in a race to be the most annoying human on the face of the earth.

[only1]

Getting back to the original issue, if the hijab is worn correctly it shouldn't be causing any discomfort for the girl. However, one should always expect some losers who have no respect to try and undermine women that wear it. There are girls in this western city that I live in that wear the hijab correctly and those who wear for it for other reasons, however, this is the cause in all societies. Also, I think fetishes are sick and one about the hijab is just freaky.

[Waiting for HIM]

LOL, would love to have a head-to-head with her :shaytan:

any woman that tries to eat a guy alive through their contumacious bullying words that leave innocent boys mentally violated, need to be squished and their claws spited. :shaytan:

don't get me wrong, jen's really kewl lol, but those poor guys man, they're not match for her lol

Yeah, I've seen sister Jen's old posts. Jen is cool :blush: , but man, the lady chews innocent adolescent apologizing shia male basigis from both sides of the pool like anything. She reminds me of those "lions of Madagascar" who smile while doing so and don't even stop for a good sounding burp . Its painful for me to see the macho egos' of those Arab/SouthAsian/Iranian males descendents from the conquerors of Rome and Constantinople being trampled under the delicate feet of those soft spoken, delightful, sweet talking, cultured and polite, hijab wearing, tent hiding damsels.

So should we rename this post to "Shia Male Ego Feeder" post.

Getting back to the original issue, if the hijab is worn correctly it shouldn't be causing any discomfort for the girl. However, one should always expect some losers who have no respect to try and undermine women that wear it. There are girls in this western city that I live in that wear the hijab correctly and those who wear for it for other reasons, however, this is the cause in all societies. Also, I think fetishes are sick and one about the hijab is just freaky.

Thanks for bringing us back to the topic. Average male's attention span is not more than 3 seconds so hope you would excuse this one.

Nice post.

Edited September 13, 2011 by Waiting for HIM

[_jen_]

Getting back to the original issue, if the hijab is worn correctly it shouldn't be causing any discomfort for the girl.

Agreed, however, do you not think with time and as generations move on - peoples ideas of hijab change - I mean, we have seen it on this thread already - that men find women in hijab attractive, whereas years ago I dont think this would have been the case. Therefore, it seems reasonable to say that "correct hijab" has now changed. Perhaps correct hijab is no longer the headscarf.

[only1]

Agreed, however, do you not think with time and as generations move on - peoples ideas of hijab change - I mean, we have seen it on this thread already - that men find women in hijab attractive, whereas years ago I dont think this would have been the case. Therefore, it seems reasonable to say that "correct hijab" has now changed. Perhaps correct hijab is no longer the headscarf.

Surly not, the hijab has not changed. It has been present in societies and religions even before Islam. However, as fashion changes, women change to accommodate the hijab with the fashion trends. I think that women who choose to wear the hijab and wear it correctly are the ones one should look up to. Not wearing a hijab is a choice that Muslim women make, like someone who is Muslim and chooses not to fast because the day is long and he/she plays sports; it does not mean that the requirement is not there it is one's choice but Islam (in my opinion) makes it clear that hijab is required.

Besides just because we live in society where hijab is not prominent or disliked it does not mean who too should shun it.

[Guest Zahratul_Islam]

Yes clearly, im glad you now appreciate that its not all about me having no beliefs, or beliefs that need to be "re-examined".

Honestly, I was just trying to be polite since everyone on this website use to complain about how abrasive I was, plus grad school is limiting time I can allot to fighting about irrelevant things online.. but screw all that.

When did I say you had no beliefs? You said that you were gonna use some dude’s post about how hijab turns him on to make yourself feel better if you should perhaps feel guilty about not wear hijab in the past. All I said was that such means of validation were vacuous and superficial, and I still hold that they are and that if you DO employ these methods your beliefs need to be reexamined.

But maybe you are in reality a Quranic scholar of sorts who has a thorough and comprehensive reason to believe the way you dress is the way Islam and the word of God truly prescribed. You just won’t share it because you fear judgment. You don’t fear judgment when you tell us you think hijab is stupid, you just fear our judgment in explaining why when going beyond merely a rationalization based on the scope of your personal experiences with perveballs and what is convenient for you.

And that is fine. I rationalize stuff all the damn time when it is convenient for me, but I have learned to admit it is a rationalization rather than to be arrogant and insist it is a product of some thorough examination of the issue through the scope of my religion, its texts, and sometimes even (cringe saying this) its scholars.

Edited September 14, 2011 by Zahratul_Islam

[Propaganda_of_the_Deed]

Honestly, I was just trying to be polite since everyone on this website use to complain about how abrasive I was, plus grad school is limiting time I can allot to fighting about irrelevant things online.. but screw all that.

When did I say you had no beliefs? You said that you were gonna use some dude’s post about how hijab turns him on to make yourself feel better if you should perhaps feel guilty about not wear hijab in the past. All I said was that such means of validation were vacuous and superficial, and I still hold that they are and that if you DO employ these methods your beliefs need to be reexamined.

But maybe you are in reality a Quranic scholar of sorts who has a thorough and comprehensive reason to believe the way you dress is the way Islam and the word of God truly prescribed. You just won’t share it because you fear judgment. You don’t fear judgment when you tell us you think hijab is stupid, you just fear our judgment in explaining why when going beyond merely a rationalization based on the scope of your personal experiences with perveballs and what is convenient for you.

And that is fine. I rationalize stuff all the damn time when it is convenient for me, but I have learned to admit it is a rationalization rather than to be arrogant and insist it is a product of some thorough examination of the issue through the scope of my religion, its texts, and sometimes even (cringe saying this) its scholars.

Just out of curiosity, why do you take all this on? The whole "fighting about irrelevant things online" ... Do you come here for the extra (in addition to grad school) intellectual challenge of "debating" with (to be quite honest from what I have observed) for the most part, inadept and dogmatic people for some form of egotistic gratification? I am not judging you, as I said just curious as to what actually compels you to continue communicating with such users.

But don't get me wrong, I do find your posts interesting and I in fact agree with most of what you try to get across, though it has been interesting comparing your earlier posts (when you would have been significantly younger) to now, because they didn't seem much different from the more dogmatic users on here with a sort of faith above reason perspective, but the later posts it is clear that you seemed to have matured and taken on a more controversial, and as you stated, abrasive online persona.

Don't mind me, I just currently have a fair bit of time on my hands these days that's all, just finished grad school not too long ago myself XD

[Guest Zahratul_Islam]

Just out of curiosity, why do you take all this on? The whole "fighting about irrelevant things online" ... Do you come here for the extra (in addition to grad school) intellectual challenge of "debating" with (to be quite honest from what I have observed) for the most part, inadept and dogmatic people for some form of egotistic gratification? I am not judging you, as I said just curious as to what actually compels you to continue communicating with such users.

But don't get me wrong, I do find your posts interesting and I in fact agree with most of what you try to get across, though it has been interesting comparing your earlier posts (when you would have been significantly younger) to now, because they didn't seem much different from the more dogmatic users on here with a sort of faith above reason perspective, but the later posts it is clear that you seemed to have matured and taken on a more controversial, and as you stated, abrasive online persona.

Don't mind me, I just currently have a fair bit of time on my hands these days that's all, just finished grad school not too long ago myself XD

Kind of. Sometimes grad school is intellectually challenging and sometimes grad school is just an academic adviser heaping all their busy work (coding, etc) on you while they sit in their ivory tower and theorize about how they are going to make the numbers and empirics fit their academic agenda and preexisting biases. It is the stuff cynics are made of, but for all its disillusionment it has its moment of sheer brilliance and the subject matter is still just as fascinating to me as it was when I began.

I am nearly 21 now, but I came on this website with my best friend when I was 15 years old to ask whether or not it was permissible to have pictures of the imam hanging up at a jaloos my mother was organizing.Mainly I wanted to prove to my mother that she was wrong and I was right, but I knew she (being the woman i inherited my obstinacy from) would need something substantive in order to concede that I wasn't just a wannabe scholar giving her a hard time for the sake of it. I stayed for several reasons, including the awesome Iraqi girls my age I used to chat to in between labs.

I learned about akbaris, IRI fanatics who insist on taking a perfectly impressive Iranian state and pretending all its actions and functions are inherently rooted in Islamic principle, and- most importantly of all- mutah. When I asked my father what mutah was he got uncomfortable told me it was a kind of soup, and when I googled it I learned it was prostitution. This site gave me another perspective on things.

I have met really intelligent people on this site, and I have met people who have impacted me in more ways than one. I think I have made lifelong friends on this website and I am grateful for it.

Anyway, who are you? I highly doubt you are just taking a random interest in my posting history. I can't even find the posts from when I was 15 years old.

Edited September 14, 2011 by Zahratul_Islam

[Propaganda_of_the_Deed]

Dayaaam.

[Propaganda_of_the_Deed]

and- most importantly of all- mutah. When I asked my father what mutah was he got uncomfortable told me it was a kind of soup, and when I googled it I learned it was prostitution. This site gave me another perspective on things.

True, certainly exploited for this purpose, but it doesn't reside exclusively in this domain, as there are also enthusiastic bf/gfs who also pursue this avenue, not to open up this irrelevent, overrrrrrrly-discussed/debated topic on here.

[_jen_]

Surly not, the hijab has not changed. It has been present in societies and religions even before Islam. However, as fashion changes, women change to accommodate the hijab with the fashion trends. I think that women who choose to wear the hijab and wear it correctly are the ones one should look up to. Not wearing a hijab is a choice that Muslim women make, like someone who is Muslim and chooses not to fast because the day is long and he/she plays sports; it does not mean that the requirement is not there it is one's choice but Islam (in my opinion) makes it clear that hijab is required.

Besides just because we live in society where hijab is not prominent or disliked it does not mean who too should shun it.

I think our differences is what the actual "requirement" is. If I thought hijab was not seen as attractive by men, then I'd agree with you 100%.

[Waiting for HIM]

I think our differences is what the actual "requirement" is. If I thought hijab was not seen as attractive by men, then I'd agree with you 100%.

Seriously Jen, this is the most absurd logic I've ever heard.

Your logic in your own words goes like this.

1. Hijab, as a head cover, makes me attractive to men so I quit doing it.

2. Hmmm, the shirt and the trouser I'm wearing makes me attractive to men even more. What about them. Let's take it off too!!

3. Opps, I took off my hijab. My hair are attracting more men now. Even the wrong kind!!. Let's shave my head tomorrow.

4. How about the rest.. I'll just put a censor on my words, but man you have twisted logic.

And there is no judgement being passed here. I'm just poking holes in your logic.

[_jen_]

Seriously Jen, this is the most absurd logic I've ever heard.

Your logic in your own words goes like this.

1. Hijab, as a head cover, makes me attractive to men so I quit doing it.

2. Hmmm, the shirt and the trouser I'm wearing makes me attractive to men even more. What about them. Let's take it off too!!

3. Opps, I took off my hijab. My hair are attracting more men now. Even the wrong kind!!. Let's shave my head tomorrow.

4. How about the rest.. I'll just put a censor on my words, but man you have twisted logic.

And there is no judgement being passed here. I'm just poking holes in your logic.

Hi

I think your analogies are a little silly and extreme. For example, if men found my hair attractive I would not shave it off i would wear hijab. I also would not remove my trousers, because thats obviously immodest too. The bottom line is I do what I feel is modest in the society I live in.

Jen

[Waiting for HIM]

Hi

I think your analogies are a little silly and extreme. For example, if men found my hair attractive I would not shave it off i would wear hijab. I also would not remove my trousers, because thats obviously immodest too. The bottom line is I do what I feel is modest in the society I live in.

Jen

Ok, you said it yourself. ", if men found my hair attractive I would not shave it off i would wear hijab". Majority of men find hair more attractive than hijab. Some of the men, a negligible minority may have sexual thoughts when they see hijab. But a whole lots of men give a second look, some even try to smell (reminds me an idiot college classmate :) the hair. So here you go. You said it yourself that you should do hijab.

Alhamdolillah for your modesty. But don't you think that if we all do on the standard of "what I feel fit", we all will be following our own versions of Islam? Hijab is order of Allah, nobody can deny it, it is the part of women's attire, just like her shirt and trouser.

If you can not take it due to reasons of job (I do not buy the security argument, in fact I don't even buy the job argument), but let's say you have valid excuses in your own mind, then fine. But do not try to "Islamically" prove that Hiajb as a head covering is not wajib. because it will either be due to ignorance or being obstinate.

Edited September 14, 2011 by Waiting for HIM

[_jen_]

Alhamdolillah for your modesty. But don't you think that if we all do on the standard of "what I feel fit", we all will be following our own versions of Islam? Hijab is order of Allah, nobody can deny it, it is the part of women's attire, just like her shirt and trouser.

If you can not take it due to reasons of job (I do not buy the security argument, in fact I don't even buy the job argument), but let's say you have valid excuses in your own mind, then fine. But do not try to "Islamically" prove that Hiajb as a head covering is not wajib. because it will either be due to ignorance or being obstinate.

Hi

Actually I never tried to Islamically prove that hijab is not wajib. I always stated that it was my own belief and understanding of Islam that the concept behind hijab is more important.

Also, I don't do what I "feel fit" according to myself, in terms of modesty, rather I do what is seen as "fit" for the society I live in.

Jen

Jen

[Waiting for HIM]

Hi

Actually I never tried to Islamically prove that hijab is not wajib. I always stated that it was my own belief and understanding of Islam that the concept behind hijab is more important.

Also, I don't do what I "feel fit" according to myself, in terms of modesty, rather I do what is seen as "fit" for the society I live in.

Jen

Jen

Ok, good. But do you see any problem with this part: "Also, I don't do what I "feel fit" according to myself, in terms of modesty, rather I do what is seen as "fit" for the society I live in.". So society is dictating if (or if not) should you follow certain command of Allah سبحانه وتعالى?

You may answer it with a positive spin. I 'm giving it a negative spin due to reasons below.

Here's my observation. You must be purchasing clothes from Zara, Gap, Forever21, Banana Republic etc.. Hijabi women too. But what happens when they pick those shirts with big chest openings, sleeveless arms and so on, since they are already covering their heads with a scarf, they are also cognizant of all these things and cover properly in additon to covering their heads.

Those who do not take head scarf "mostly" are also not careful about these things and then their non-Hijab of head also turns into non-Hijab of chest, non-Hijab of arms, non-Hajib of butts <covered but small shirt exposes it all>, non-Hijab of legs <skinny jeans>, and soon without realization the revealing keeps on increasing until you can't even argue with some one why it is so ridiculous to wear a sari with your belly button showing. Now do not tell me that you stitch all your clothes living in UK.

So one 4ft x 4ft head scarf saves you from being desensitized from so many other form of non-Hijabs. And on top of it, if you have little daughter and neices, you owe it to them that you show them a proper Islamic attire so they follow the right path.

You giving yourself an inch are giving them the liberty of a foot who in turn giving their daughters the liberty of a meter and so on.

<Please do not quote those hijabans who are there in skin tight dresses, majority of hijabs are modest in true sense, or at least try to>

Edited September 14, 2011 by Waiting for HIM

[_jen_]

^Thats interesting, but sort of irrelevent since I've already mentioned about the concept of modesty being important to me. I think this topic has been exhausted enough. You think hijab can be both modest and be attractive for men to look at, whereas I think being attractive to men is not being modest. Agree to disagree.

Jen

[only1]

^Thats interesting, but sort of irrelevent since I've already mentioned about the concept of modesty being important to me. I think this topic has been exhausted enough. You think hijab can be both modest and be attractive for men to look at, whereas I think being attractive to men is not being modest. Agree to disagree.

Jen

Maybe I am hard of understanding but do you mean that the hijab is attractive thus it is immodest?

[_jen_]

Yes, exactly.