Who Decided The 4 Sunni Schools?

[Elhusseinie]

Who decided the 4 Sunni schools?

Could anyone tell me how the 4 Sunni schools emerged? I mean, there

were many great thinkers at the time, but why are only the four

(Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i, Hanbali) approved?

I read that abu Jafar al Mansur put Abu Hanifa in jail, but a friend

of mine says that it was Abu Jafar al Mansur that restricted the Sunni

shools to only 4 (because there were too many at te time). Is this

true or not?

Also, in which time (i mean; which Khalifa exactly) were the 2 Sahih

Books and the 4 Sunans approved as proper Hadith books?

Can anyone help me out?

[JawzofDETH]

Lol, I reverted it was easier

than answering what you asked :P

Some pious ulemah long long time ago,

and you weren't on the guest-list :P

you probably needed an invite like with

Google+.

I think Ibn Hajar Asqalani, Dhahabi and

the likes would probably be an educated

guess,

Was-Salaam

Edited September 8, 2011 by JawzofDETH

[Elhusseinie]

Sheigh Google can't answer my question; that's why I was hoping for a clear answer here.

I'll wait though...patience is a virtue ;)

[Abu Tufayl]

(bismillah)

There were actually hundreds of "madhhabs" back in the day. But the `Abbasids were having an annoying and tough time dealing with the fact that whenever a person came to court they would say "I follow fulan's fatawa so blah blah." There's no way to really punish and apply any sort of rules given the super ikhtilaaf those guys had (and still have). So the government say that when you come to court, you will be judged according to one of these 4 (which I assume were most popular around that era). So you choose one and get tried under that school's fatawa and stuff.

Government influence. That's all it is. That's all whatever they have is.

في أمان الله

[aladdin]

The caliphas did, as they the maker of the four madhabs supported the caliphas in power. Where you think the concept of predestination came from?

Support the caliphas in power as they have been appointed by God Himself through predestination. How can you lowly Muslim oppose the Mighty Caliph who God Himself has appointed over you.

[Elhusseinie]

The Sunni sect including the 4 schools as we know it today knows its roots around that era.

However, the court under which khalif allowed only these 4 schools to be uphold?

Also, were all the other ulama/schools prohibited to follow? Or were they simply not recognised by court?

[Gypsy]

They are still many many sects in the world apart from the 4 sunni sects like Zaydi, Ismaili, Bohras, Ahmadiyyah, Allawi, Nurayris, Zahiri, Sufi, Ibadi. Sects become dominant when they gain political backing.

In the case of the Sunnisme, the beginning was in the time of Abaside.

For the Shia, they say Safavid played an important role in the spread of Shiasm. But you don’t have that many Shia countries in the world compare the Sunnis. The history of Shias is also full of oppression since day one.

For Ismailis, their golden age was the Fatimid in Egypt in the 9^th century AD

For Zaydis it was sometimes in Yemen.

For the Wahabbis and Salafis, it was 18^th century Saudi Arabia.

Edited September 9, 2011 by Zareen

[Elhusseinie]

My question is not about who endorsed a certain school of thought but it's about the origin as we know it today.

The salavids instilled the Shia school of thought, but before that period te same school already existed. It's origins go back to the prophet saws. and the 12 imams. They were the ones that established Shia doctrine as we know it today.

With Sunni however, this is not the case. Imam Ali as. for example was cursed and not accepted during the time of the Umayyads (until Umar bin Abdul Aziz). Today, Sunni Muslims love Ali as. and he is part Sunni doctrine (he has a different position, but that is another topic). In any way it means that Sunni doctrine (as we know it today) emerged after the period of the Umayyads and didn't exist before that (again; I'm talking about te same doctrine as we know it today and not other things).

What I like to know is when exactly, by whom and how it emerged :)

If anyone has historical references or tips how to research this then it's much appreciated.

[JimJam]

For Ismailis, their golden age was the Fatimid in Egypt in the 9^th century AD

Yeah but you have to give them credit that they didn't forcibly convert their citizens, which is the main reasons they dont continue in North African

Edited September 9, 2011 by JimJam

[Gypsy]

My question is not about who endorsed a certain school of thought but it's about the origin as we know it today.

Oh If you only wanted to know the origin of the Sunni schools then..

In the 7th century

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ab%C5%AB_%E1%B8%A4an%C4%ABfa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shafi%27i

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malik_ibn_Anas

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_ibn_Hanbal

The start of Sunnism is 200 years after the Holy Prophet and it spread for the better part of the 8th and 9th century. Even after passing of the Sunni Imams, their student carried on the banner of their sects. You should probably ask around Sunni Scholars on the names of the students for each of the Sunni Imams and also the names of their student's students.

[Elhusseinie]

I know that the students of the 4 Sunni imams spread it mostly throughout the Muslim world.

However, I don't know which Khalif (or anyone else) said 'we have to follow those and no more' (and why specifically only them)...

Edited September 9, 2011 by Elhusseinie

[Gypsy]

However, I don't know which Khalif (or anyone else) said 'we have to follow those and no more' (and why specifically only them)...

According to the Sunnis, they refer to the 4 caliphs as Khulafa al Rashideen. To them Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali were the leaders of the Muslims. The 4 caliphs were no longer alive when the Sunni sects came into existence. So it is a bit hard to claim that any of the 4 caliphs approved of any of the Sunni sects.

[aladdin]

I know that the students of the 4 Sunni imams spread it mostly throughout the Muslim world.

However, I don't know which Khalif (or anyone else) said 'we have to follow those and no more' (and why specifically only them)...

It depends which caliph was in power and which governor of that country. Thus, each four of the schools are predominate in certain but large part of the area.

[JawzofDETH]

There were other madhabs that never made it, like the Sufyani Madhab (Sufyan Thawri) and the Jariris (At-Tabari)

It probably came down to who had the most court appeal.

Was-Salaam

[Abbas]

Salam Alaikum

It was a gradual process. Each of the four madhabs grew to prominence due to the favours of the courts of the caliphs of the time, while the others were left out of the elite scholars club. In the end, people followed one of the four madhabs and forgot about the rest, as it were these madhabs that were enforced by the rulers in different periods and different lands. Gradually, the notion of the four madhabs came to the fore, the other schools of jurisprudence died and were read out of curisoity only, and thats how its been ever since. All major middle-age scholars then followed one of these four madhabs, which further imprinted on the Sunni faith that these are the only four madhabs that one should follow.

In other words: survival of the fittest.

[Ace Abbas]

Salam.

Two points:

1. Those four Imams are big Imams. They are not normal people like us.

2. There were many sects during their time, but other sects didn't really have many followers, so their sects didn't develop much.

Wallah hu a'lam.

[aladdin]

Salam.

Two points:

1. Those four Imams are big Imams. They are not normal people like us.

2. There were many sects during their time, but other sects didn't really have many followers, so their sects didn't develop much.

Wallah hu a'lam.

1. You mean they were infallible.

2. You mean the four were indirectly strongly supported by the caliphs in power as these four were doing the bidding for the caliphs.

[Ace Abbas]

1. You mean they were infallible.

2. You mean the four were indirectly strongly supported by the caliphs in power as these four were doing the bidding for the caliphs.

1. Nobody is infallible. What I meant is, those four Imams are alim. They memorize al-Qur'an and hadith. They learned many ilmu. That is why I said, they are not normal people like us. Were you mislead or were you purposely trying to cause an argument? I don't understand. Why are you Shia are so obsessed with the infallible Imams more than Rasulullah S.A.W.. And I don't understand why do the Shia don't include Rasulullah S.A.W. among the infallible list. Answer that.

2. They followed Rasulullah S.A.W. and the four Caliphs. And please be more careful in causing a stupid argument, because Imam Shafi'i rahimahullah is an ahl al-bayt. You claim to be the lover of ahl al-bayt but is this the attitude of a lover of ahl al-bayt? Answer that one too.

[aladdin]

^^^^ There are thousands of people like your four imams. They are not special people, but you are trying to make them.

There are quite a few Sunnis who are are alim. They memorize al-Qur'an and hadith. They follow Rasulullah S.A.W. and the four Caliphs, but it doesn't make them so special, unless you are trying to make them.

[Ace Abbas]

^^^^ There are thousands of people like your four imams. They are not special people, but you are trying to make them.

There are quite a few Sunnis who are are alim. They memorize al-Qur'an and hadith. They follow Rasulullah S.A.W. and the four Caliphs, but it doesn't make them so special, unless you are trying to make them.

Your ally is none but Allah and [therefore] His Messenger and those who have believed - those who establish prayer and give zakah, and they bow [in worship]. (Al-Maidah : 55)

This shows the awliya and the four of them are awliya. Yes, there are many awliya beside the four Imams like Sheikh Jalal ad-Din Muhammad Rumi, Sheikh Abdul Qadir Gilani, Imam Junayd of Baghdad, Imam Nawawi and many more. What differ those four and other awliya is that, those four are the Imam of fiqh. That is clear enough.

And you didn't answer my question yet.

"I don't understand. Why are you Shia are so obsessed with the infallible Imams more than Rasulullah S.A.W.. And I don't understand why do the Shia don't include Rasulullah S.A.W. among the infallible list. Answer that."

Edited September 16, 2011 by Ace Abbas

[aladdin]

Your ally is none but Allah and [therefore] His Messenger and those who have believed - those who establish prayer and give zakah, and they bow [in worship]. (Al-Maidah : 55)

This shows the awliya and the four of them are awliya. Yes, there are many awliya beside the four Imams like Sheikh Jalal ad-Din Muhammad Rumi, Sheikh Abdul Qadir Gilani, Imam Junayd of Baghdad, Imam Nawawi and many more. What differ those four and other awliya is that, those four are the Imam of fiqh. That is clear enough.

There were thousands of awliya with school of fiqh. These four were chosen by the caliphs because they were on the payroll of the caliphs and they were doing the bidding of the caliphs. They even invented the concept of Predestination.

WHICH MEANT?

The caliph is chosen over you by Allah through Predestination, and no matter how corrupt the caliph is, you must obey him as this is the Will of Allah.

BTW, are you aware that the aya you quoted above is about Imam Ali (as) and he was the one who gave charity while praying. All Muslims, both Sunni and Shia believe that this aya is about Imam Ali. The Wahhabis don't.

And you didn't answer my question yet.

"I don't understand. Why are you Shia are so obsessed with the infallible Imams more than Rasulullah S.A.W.. And I don't understand why do the Shia don't include Rasulullah S.A.W. among the infallible list. Answer that."

The list is of 14 infallible and not 12 infallible. Here is the list of the 14 infallible:

1. Rasul Allah Mohammad (pbuh).

2. Bibi Fatima (as).

3. And, the 12 Imams (as).

Edited September 16, 2011 by aladdin

[Ace Abbas]

There were thousands of awliya with school of fiqh. These four were chosen by the caliphs because they were on the payroll of the caliphs and they were doing the bidding of the caliphs. They even invented the concept of Predestination.

WHICH MEANT?

The caliph is chosen over you by Allah through Predestination, and no matter how corrupt the caliph is, you must obey him as this is the Will of Allah.

BTW, are you aware that the aya you quoted above is about Imam Ali (as) and he was the one who gave charity while praying. All Muslims, both Sunni and Shia believe that this aya is about Imam Ali. The Wahhabis don't.

Yes, there were thousands of awliya with school of fiqh. And these four are the one who opened the schools. Predestination (or al-qada wa al-qadar) is NOT invented. It is from the hadith.

That ayat is not about Imam Ali karamallah wajhah alone. It is about other awliya as well. Only the Shia believe that is it about Imam Ali karamallah wajhah alone. I don't know and don't care about what the Wahhabis believe in. But what I know is that the Sunnis believe that it is about all the awliya.

If there are fourteen infallible, why is it called ithna ashariyya then? Why not arba'ah ashariyya? Answer this one also.

[aladdin]

If there are fourteen infallible, why is it called ithna ashariyya then? Why not arba'ah ashariyya? Answer this one also.

There are 14 infallible but 12 imams. All Muslims believe in Allah and rasul Allah Mohammad. After that the 12'ers believe in 12 imams. There are lots of sects in Shai.

Even in 12'ers there are two sects, the Usuli Shia who are the majority and the Akbari Shia who are a very small minority. Most Shias in Bahrain are Akhbari Shia. Most Shias in Iraq, Lebanon and Iran are Usuli Shia. On this forum the 12'ers are about half Usuli Shia and about half Akhbari Shia.

Then there are Shia who believe in 6 imams, others believe in 49 imams and the Alawi (named after Imam Ali) believe in Imam Ali only. These are not considered Muslims by the 12'ers because they believe Imam Ali to be Allah. Astafgurullah, astafgurullah.

The 12 imams are Ali, al-Hassan, al-Hussain and the nine descended of al-Hussain.

Then they are Zaidi Shia in Yemen, who believe after three imams Ali, al-Hassan and al-Hussain, Zaid son of al-Hassan is the next imam.

Edited September 17, 2011 by aladdin

[Ace Abbas]

There are 14 infallible but 12 imams. All Muslims believe in Allah and rasul Allah Mohammad. After that the 12'ers believe in 12 imams. There are lots of sects in Shai.

Even in 12'ers there are two sects, the Usuli Shia who are the majority and the Akbari Shia who are a very small minority. Most Shias in Bahrain are Akhbari Shia. Most Shias in Iraq, Lebanon and Iran are Usuli Shia. On this forum the 12'ers are about half Usuli Shia and about half Akhbari Shia.

Then there are Shia who believe in 6 imams, others believe in 49 imams and the Alawi (named after Imam Ali) believe in Imam Ali only. These are not considered Muslims by the 12'ers because they believe Imam Ali to be Allah. Astafgurullah, astafgurullah.

The 12 imams are Ali, al-Hassan, al-Hussain and the nine descended of al-Hussain.

Then they are Zaidi Shia in Yemen, who believe after three imams Ali, al-Hassan and al-Hussain, Zaid son of al-Hassan is the next imam.

Okay. Thank you for the brief explanation. Allah bless you.

[Syed.Dynasty]

so i was debating a sunni shiekh in his mosque about this same topic and I told him that the Shia 6th imam Jaffar Al Saddiq was a teacher of all four of these "imams" then when he realized there was no rebuttal to this statement he started scratching his unusually long beard and said he had to go that i should come back at a different time so we can continue this discussion. If im correct Hassan Malik was a closer student to Imam Jafar Saddiq thats why Malik's book says is it undesirable to pray with your hands on your stomach , chest, ribcage or wherever else you guys put your hands.

And as said eerlier in this thread they tried to keep their teachings in line with the caliphs of their time so they wouldn't be prosecuted.

DEATH BEFORE DISHONOUR

[Ace Abbas]

so i was debating a sunni shiekh in his mosque about this same topic and I told him that the Shia 6th imam Jaffar Al Saddiq was a teacher of all four of these "imams" then when he realized there was no rebuttal to this statement he started scratching his unusually long beard and said he had to go that i should come back at a different time so we can continue this discussion. If im correct Hassan Malik was a closer student to Imam Jafar Saddiq thats why Malik's book says is it undesirable to pray with your hands on your stomach , chest, ribcage or wherever else you guys put your hands.

And as said eerlier in this thread they tried to keep their teachings in line with the caliphs of their time so they wouldn't be prosecuted.

DEATH BEFORE DISHONOUR

Yeah, Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq rahimahullah is a trusted Imam among the Shia and the Sunnis. And we also believe that he was a great sufi.

And to reply your statement, Sunnis belief that it is a sunnah to put the hands on the stomach. It's not forbidden to straighten your hands by your side like what the Malikis do. What forbidden is to put your hands on your waist.

[Syed.Dynasty]

thats interesting.....since sunnis believe Imam Jaffar Al-Sadiq is a trusted Imam then why do they completely disregard his hadis?

[Ace Abbas]

thats interesting.....since sunnis believe Imam Jaffar Al-Sadiq is a trusted Imam then why do they completely disregard his hadis?

We believe that most of Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq rahimahullah's quotes are fabricated by the Shiites. Sorry if you're offended. You asked for it. ;)

[guest 34193]

We believe that most of Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq rahimahullah's quotes are fabricated by the Shiites. Sorry if you're offended. You asked for it. ;)

That would have been quite the amazing conspiracy, all those many hadiths from many different chains, showing a general consistency of beliefs and teachings, and to think that he would have had all these close disciples who were lying about his teachings, and neither he nor the Imams from his descendants would have corrected the mistaken belief in such a widespread fraud, if such a claim was true.

[Ace Abbas]

That would have been quite the amazing conspiracy, all those many hadiths from many different chains, showing a general consistency of beliefs and teachings, and to think that he would have had all these close disciples who were lying about his teachings, and neither he nor the Imams from his descendants would have corrected the mistaken belief in such a widespread fraud, if such a claim was true.

Did I ever say that his disciples are the one who fabricated the quotes? Nope. I didn't say his disciples. I was talking about the newborn Shiites.

[guest 34193]

Did I ever say that his disciples are the one who fabricated the quotes? Nope. I didn't say his disciples. I was talking about the newborn Shiites.

What "newborn" Shiites and who do you think were disseminating these teachings? How do you explain that his closest disciples were people such as Zurara b. A`yan, Muhammad b. Muslim, Aban b. Taghlab, Hisham b. al-Hakam, and others who's being Shi`a is not disputed. And again, were this really true, you don't think he or the Imams from his descendants would have corrected it and said this was all some massive conspiracy to make all this up?

[MysticKnight]

you don't think he or the Imams from his descendants would have corrected it and said this was all some massive conspiracy to make all this up?

Wasn't their official stance in public that they were not Imams, everything they could say to say it's wrong would be taken as taqiya, would it not? The official stance they had with public was that of Sunni was it not? So what can they say to denounce the shias that would not be seen as taqiya? The Sunnis thought they were one of them, because that is how they appeared to them.

At the end, the public is deceived, and you are relying on a very few people that existed out of all the people that existed to attribute teachings to them. You don't know how close the companions were to the Imams or not, it's all what you been told, and you don't know those whom narrate from them are trustworthy or not.

I'm sure the amount of fabricators that existed are far more then the narrators you rely on....

[Syed.Dynasty]

I'm sure the amount of fabricators that existed are far more then the narrators you rely on....

Thats a good point. I'm sure you would agree that the situation is the same with bukhari's "sahih" hadith. If you have read sahih bukhari you will find tooo many of those hadith contradict what is taught in The Noble Quran. We muslims have a science of authenticating hadith u should look into that before believing everything that is taught by your "scholars".