I Find Something Odd About The Holy Quran ...

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I remember, at age 13, the first religious revelation book that i read was the Bible, due to the fact that i used to go to a catholic high school and it was handed out in RE class.

I had become accustomed to the way the bible had been written. It was kind of like reading a novel and everything was chronological. I expected the structure and layout of the Quran to be similar to this because i had never read the Quran in english, didn't know anything about it, even though i was raised as a Shia Muslim. Though, come to think of it, i hardly knew anything about my faith back then, anyway.

I subsequently bought a quranic translation and when it came to opening the first page, i was rather excited. I thought i'd read about the Holy Prophet (sawa) or read a chronological account of true events and stories. instead, when it came to surah baqarah and other chapters of the Quran such as surah tahreem, honestly, all i saw was mumble jumble. I kept flicking and skimming through the pages trying to find a detailed story of some sort, but all i saw was a set of verses - one disparate from the previous one, talking about something totally different that i couldn't understand with depth. I felt a little disappointed.

But this isn't the only problem...

whilst reading the quran, i kept flicking the pages thinking "ok, i already know this, tell me something new' ..

why does the Quran tell us what we already know? I swear, i understood Islam properly through Ahlul Bayt (as) and now i just see the Quran as an authentic "reference" book. The quran reveals to our Prophet revelation in regards to different events and it's been put in book form. I've never really understood this. take this analogy - Its like me, dictating instructions to my colleague about a certain task and then writing all these instructions down and turning it into a book to publish.. it doesn't make sense, does it? no one would be able to relate to it. They would have to refer to the details in order to understand this book, so the book itself would become referential.

Furthermore, there is major ambiguity in the Quran. I mean, seriosuly, Why couldn't God be a little more clearer than be really ambiguous by saying that 'May god kill the christians how deluded they are' in one verse, and another verse stating that the closest to the believers are the Christians. Seriously, even if we didn't have the Quran, the Ahlul Bayt would have suffice for our knowledge and understanding.

Can someone relieve me of these problems?

[Ali H Syed]

I am leaving among you two weighty things: the one being the Book of Allah in which there is right guidance and light, so hold fast to the Book of Allah and adhere to it. He exhorted (us) (to hold fast) to the Book of Allah and then said: The second are the members of my household I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family. - prophet muhammad saaw

http://www.sayedammar.com/RAMA%202007%20POP%20OUT/ramadhan2007popk.html

i also suggest listening to this lecture, is explains allot

(bismillah)

[Lanatin]

That's probably because you were impatiently 'flicking' through the pages of the Quran.

'May god kill the christians how deluded they are' The Quran said may God fight them not 'kill them', it's obviously metaphoric. Do you even remember the verse or were you hurriedly reading the verses in anxiety? Here's the verse for everyone to see:

"And say the Jews: 'Ezra is the son of God' and say the Christians: 'The Messiah is the son of God'. These are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; God fighteth them; How they turn away! Take they their scholars and monks as lords besides God, and the Messiah son of Mary while they were not commanded but to worship God the Only One; There is no god but He; pure is He and exalted is He from what they associate." (9:30-31) There's a fully prepared argument here. It clearly states that their scriptures told them to worship One God, but they turned away and resorted to endless esoteric interpretations of passages that showed this. They 'turned away' after the clear evidence was there.

You know fully well not all the Christians believe this. The Quran recognized this too and said those Christians who believed in God and the afterlife and did good deeds would go to heaven. It (naturally) knew the fact that their own scriptures still had the original monotheistic message and alerted the Christians to read them to find the true teachings of Jesus. The verse that points to the veracity of my second sentence is 5:69 where it says:

"Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians and whoever believeth in God and the Last Day and doeth good, no fear shall be upon them and nor shall they grieve." Of course these christians always existed throughout the ages and part of their duty is to 'stand fast' by the Gospel as the previous verse stated and the Quran repeatedly says Jesus prophesised the coming of Muhammad. "Say: O' people of the Book! Ye have no ground to stand upon until ye stand fast by the Law and the Gospel and what hath been sent down unto you from your Lord; and surely that which hath been sent down unto thee will increase many of them in transgression and infidelity..." (5:68). The immediately succeeding verse has already been quoted above so it shows when the message of the Islamic faith comes to their discretionary attention they should consequently transfer to Islam. It is this same chapter where it says among the Christians you will find those nearest in friendship. Obviously it isn't saying all christians are closest to the believers thus:

"...and thou wilt find the nearest in friendship to those who believe those who say: 'We are Christians'; this because among them are priests and monks and because they are not elated with pride" (5:82)

If you read the Quran chronologically, carefully and reflectively without any rush or 'skimming' you would realise all the brilliant content the Quran has to offer. Perhaps your comprehension won't be ridiculed by the more aggressive muslims out there. The Quran is riddled with multi-layered parables, rational arguments against idolatry and polytheism in general. It's always appealing to the reason of the reader when arguing the case for the Oneness of God and the reality of the Afterlife. It establishes the reality of the Islamic doctrines through the reasoning it provides. There are plenty of verses that I can bring on this if you want me to but for the sake of briefness i'll consider it in my next post. The thing with the Quran is it's a book that is self-proclaimed as a warning to humanity as a whole, a guidance and a distinguisher (furqan) between right and wrong. It addresses the dogmas of a multitude of polytheistic ideologies, it calls upon the Jews to faithfully practice all the teachings of the Torah, it has a set of duties and regulations outlined for believers. The basic doctrines are hence free from any exegesis needed, as the Quran itself says:

"He it is Who hath sent down to thee the Book of it there are verses decisive there are the basis of the book, and others are ambiguous;..." (3:7)

The sanctified place of Ahlul-Bait in all of this is to expound the details of many of the different duties outlined for muslims which is an imperative directed at muslims specifically. They are specifically needed by the muslims. The Quran on the other hand addresses all ideologies and factions of humanity, it has an array of different pieces of information. And may I say at the forefront of the Ahlul-Bait is Prophet Muhammad himself. He was given the details and implications of the Quranic regulations and passed this precious divine knowledge to his holy Ahlul-Bait. This was done when he instructed Ali in a detailed exposition of every Qur'anic verse throughout his prophetic career; he would dictate a certain point and Ali would write it down. It eventually came to be collected into a scripture called 'Al-Jami'ah' and the eleven subsequent Imams inherited this. They always said whatever injunctions and explanations they give to the people originates from the Prophet himself. As the Quran says:

"Indeed God hath conferred His favour upon the believers when He raised up an apostle among them from their own selves, to recite unto them His signs, and to purify them, and to teach them the book and the Wisdom..." (3:164)

Edited September 8, 2011 by La'nat Ma Man

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So is the Quran a reference book or are the Hadeeth references?

[guest 34193]

They complement one another. You can't leave one without the other or have one without the other.

[ImamAliLover]

(bismillah)

(salam)

Furthermore, there is major ambiguity in the Quran. I mean, seriosuly, Why couldn't God be a little more clearer than be really ambiguous by saying that 'May god kill the christians how deluded they are' in one verse, and another verse stating that the closest to the believers are the Christians. Seriously, even if we didn't have the Quran, the Ahlul Bayt would have suffice for our knowledge and understanding.

My dear brother, the problem isn't ambiguity with the Quran. The problem is with your lack of reading. You can't take a few sentences out of a book and then try to make sense out of it. You have to read the whole thing and compare the similar topics in order to get a better understanding of it.

[guest 34193]

Not to mention you can't really compare the Bible and the Quran as such. The Bible is a collection of various books while the Quran is a single book. A fairer comparison would actually be the Bible next to the Quran + the ahadith + the seera of the Ma`sumeen. Or alternatively, taking a single book from say the "Prophets" section, like Isaiah, and putting that next to the Quran. Of course, the point isn't about finding which is "better", after all we do affirm and believe in previous revelations, but just to put in context of what you are looking at.

[kadhim]

Yes. It needs to be understood that the Quran is understood to be purely a collection of bare revelation. It is a collection of fragmentary statements of God's response, given to the early community, in relation to certain moments in the early community over a 23 year period.

The Bible has this sort of material within it, but there's also an effort in the Bible to craft a story around it, to make something more narrative. So as Macisaac mentions, if you want to compare like to like, you want to compare to Qu'ran and ahadith and seerah, including any info available on the context of revelation of the Quranic verses that may be accessible in tafsir.

[Çåá ÇáÈíÊ]

Yes. It needs to be understood that the Quran is understood to be purely a collection of bare revelation. It is a collection of fragmentary statements of God's response, given to the early community, in relation to certain moments in the early community over a 23 year period.

The Bible has this sort of material within it, but there's also an effort in the Bible to craft a story around it, to make something more narrative. So as Macisaac mentions, if you want to compare like to like, you want to compare to Qu'ran and ahadith and seerah, including any info available on the context of revelation of the Quranic verses that may be accessible in tafsir.

Ok. I guess what i'm essentially asking is, why did God reveal the Quran this way - fragemented? Surely, God is more than capable to have revealed it with detail. What was the purpose in revealing it this way?You might say that this is where the ahlul bayt come in since they explain the Quran. Well, sure, but not every single verse in the Quran has an interpretation by the Aimmah. Because, at the end of the day, the system of hadeeth rijal is very weak. There are so many contradicting, odd narrations and we can never be sure what is authentic. Even the ones that have a good chain are put under question, because the fact is that we can never truly know what narration is true or not.Why would God publish His Holy book in such a bare way, and then leave such a weak and dodgy system for us as Hadeeth?Furthermore, we don't know very much about the Prophet and Ahlul Bayt, hadeeth doesn't do their lives justice as the narrations could be false for all we know. Plus, the Quran is totally silent. It just focuses on events that happened during the lifetime of the Holy Prophet. In surah Hujuraat, the first verse tells the companians not to raise their voice above the Prophets voice. How is this relevant today? Even moreso, there is the verse (christians, jews, who believe in God, the Last Day and do good deeds they will not grieve) , i just don't see the point of this verse today if its speaking about the past jews and christians who held onto the true belief.. what purpose does it serve?

[Ali H Syed]

Ok. I guess what i'm essentially asking is, why did God reveal the Quran this way - fragemented? Surely, God is more than capable to have revealed it with detail. What was the purpose in revealing it this way?You might say that this is where the ahlul bayt come in since they explain the Quran. Well, sure, but not every single verse in the Quran has an interpretation by the Aimmah. Because, at the end of the day, the system of hadeeth rijal is very weak. There are so many contradicting, odd narrations and we can never be sure what is authentic. Even the ones that have a good chain are put under question, because the fact is that we can never truly know what narration is true or not.Why would God publish His Holy book in such a bare way, and then leave such a weak and dodgy system for us as Hadeeth?Furthermore, we don't know very much about the Prophet and Ahlul Bayt, hadeeth doesn't do their lives justice as the narrations could be false for all we know. Plus, the Quran is totally silent. It just focuses on events that happened during the lifetime of the Holy Prophet. In surah Hujuraat, the first verse tells the companians not to raise their voice above the Prophets voice. How is this relevant today? Even moreso, there is the verse (christians, jews, who believe in God, the Last Day and do good deeds they will not grieve) , i just don't see the point of this verse today if its speaking about the past jews and christians who held onto the true belief.. what purpose does it serve?

firstly there is not a single contradiction and singly as stated before, every single verse has an interpretation, but some scholars have told us a single verse can have 70 levels of interpretation, just put that into perspective

(bismillah)

[Çåá ÇáÈíÊ]

firstly there is not a single contradiction and singly as stated before, every single verse has an interpretation, but some scholars have told us a single verse can have 70 levels of interpretation, just put  that into perspective

I didn't say the Quran has contradictions, i'm saying one hadith differs from another and the process of sifting and sieving has to be implemented, but sometimes even then there is nothing conclusive. Can you explain the two verses i questioned? Also, what are the "70 layers" of interpretations.. do we have them? No. So what's the point of stating something we can never obtain??

[kadhim]

Ok. I guess what i'm essentially asking is, why did God reveal the Quran this way - fragemented? Surely, God is more than capable to have revealed it with detail. What was the purpose in revealing it this way?You might say that this is where the ahlul bayt come in since they explain the Quran. Well, sure, but not every single verse in the Quran has an interpretation by the Aimmah. Because, at the end of the day, the system of hadeeth rijal is very weak. There are so many contradicting, odd narrations and we can never be sure what is authentic. Even the ones that have a good chain are put under question, because the fact is that we can never truly know what narration is true or not.Why would God publish His Holy book in such a bare way, and then leave such a weak and dodgy system for us as Hadeeth?Furthermore, we don't know very much about the Prophet and Ahlul Bayt, hadeeth doesn't do their lives justice as the narrations could be false for all we know. Plus, the Quran is totally silent. It just focuses on events that happened during the lifetime of the Holy Prophet. In surah Hujuraat, the first verse tells the companians not to raise their voice above the Prophets voice. How is this relevant today? Even moreso, there is the verse (christians, jews, who believe in God, the Last Day and do good deeds they will not grieve) , i just don't see the point of this verse today if its speaking about the past jews and christians who held onto the true belief.. what purpose does it serve?

I'm not sure you understand. That's just how revelation is revealed. There is a situation, and a revelation appears in relation to that situation that answers a question or solves a problem. The Bible does not claim to be a revealed book in the same way.The Bible flows as a story because people wrote books that imposed a narrative and integrated fragments of revelation into a linear story. If you stripped out from the Bible only the parts that are comparable flashes of revelation and glued it back together, you'd see the same sort of thing. The Quran doesn't strive to be some storybook. It strives to be a compilation of those revealed bits. That's why the 2nd weighty thing is important to provide that rich detail of context that fills in the blanks.

There's the element of human agency too. God doesn't magically do everything for us. We are given the necessary materials, and then we have to make something of it. If the greater part of the community, for example, refused to properly respect or learn from the assigned exegetes of the Quranic experience, then the situation suffers as a result. But that's humanity's fault.

Edited September 9, 2011 by kadhim

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Question for Kadhim:

1. But, Kadhim, are the necessary materials sufficient? And when you say 'make something of it', does that mean we don't have enough so we have gotta to extrapolate it on our own?

2. There are many scholarly books and tafseers that provides explanations and details. Logically, aren't these sources of knowledge better than the Quran?

3. As for the 2nd weighty thing, it is fundamental but Hadeeth is needed to know about the second weighty thing. Not very effective system is it?

4. In surah Hujuraat, the first verse tells the companians not to raise their voice above the Prophets voice. How is this relevant today? Even moreso, there is the verse (christians, jews, who believe in God, the Last Day and do good deeds they will not grieve) , i just don't see the point of this verse today if its speaking about the past jews and christians who held onto the true belief.. what purpose does it serve?

Thank you

[kadhim]

1. Make something of the resources given. Meaning, mankind was given this set of revelations and the people to interpret/explain the lessons of that revelation. These are resources. It was up to humanity to make the best use of those resources. Reflecting on Quran. Listening to and supporting the chosen interpreters. Asking them good questions. Listening to the answers. Acting on these recommendations. Making careful documentation of the words and actions of these figures for future generations. The early community didn't respect these chosen interpreters. Persecuted them and their followers in fact. Made it hard to fully document the words and actions. We experience consequences of that to this day. The resources were sufficient. People made poor use of them. Such is an inescapable part of life.

2. How is the exegesis better than the source? This makes no coherent sense. Interpretation merely brings out what is within the text when done correctly. The interpretation is not separate from the text. The interpretation is an unveiling of what was already contained within.

3. There are a few tens of thousands of narrations preserved on a wide variety of topics. If circumstances had been more favorable, much much more would have been recorded and preserved, but all in all, we have quite substantial materials at our fingertips.

4. All revelations are a record of an address from God to the early community. Trying to extract greater meaning is a matter of revelation by revelation trying to see what was the issue the revelation addressed and how it was addressed and in what way our own reality parallels that earlier reality in a way that we can gain some benefit.

[Lanatin]

So is the Quran a reference book or are the Hadeeth references?

Oops I did a typo when quoting 3:7 of the Holy Quran. it should have said 'these' and not 'there' my mistake :s

" "He it is Who hath sent down to thee the Book of it there are verses decisive these are the basis of the book, and others are ambiguous;..."

They're both references to a certain extent. However, when it comes to basic intuitions about God, his nature, his Oneness and the Afterlife and other basic doctrines of the Islamic creed the Quran has made things clearer than water. They're the 'muhkam' verses mentioned in the above quoted verse, the 'decisive' verses in other words. The wisdom behind the little detail surrounding the duties and regulations outlined for us is that the Quran is a book that is directed towards all different memebrs of faith, all factions of humanity so only the most relevant, basic doctrines are given the greatest attention by the Quran. It is a reference book for all so it should be accessible in content, sizeable with satisfying information and not too much of a large set of laws and commandments that would lose its universal appeal. It is with this respect the Holy Prophet has said he has been given the small message but with the greatest meaning. It's a book you can take wherever you want with you, put it in your bag or even fit it in your pocket.

The hadiths of the Prophet and Ahlul-Bayt are on the other hand a strictly internal phenomenon we muslims need for knowing all the details about how to practice all the commandments of Islam (like prayer, fasting, pilgrimage, laws etc.). The greatest difference between both references are that the Quran is safely utilized as the criterion between truth and falsehood (whatever islam truly believes and whatever it rejects); the hadiths on the other hand are subject to this very law.

Edited September 9, 2011 by La'nat Ma Man

[Ali H Syed]

I didn't say the Quran has contradictions, i'm saying one hadith differs from another and the process of sifting and sieving has to be implemented, but sometimes even then there is nothing conclusive. Can you explain the two verses i questioned? Also, what are the "70 layers" of interpretations.. do we have them? No. So what's the point of stating something we can never obtain??

thus your answer lies in the imam mahdi as, they will teach us the whole message of the quran, this is why we are accused of believe that we think the quran is not complete, a huge misconception, and also iyatullahs and great scholars spend their lives studying them and do find knowledge that me and you simply would not be able to see or find out

(bismillah)