Ramadhan Has To Be Of 30 Days And Not 29 Days

[Fakhruddin]

ANSWER TO BROTHER ORION....

‘Ismaili Lunar Calendar’: An ideal base to unite the ‘Ummah’

By: Qazi Dr. Shaikh Abbas Borhany

PhD (USA), NDI, Shahadat al A’alamiyyah (Najaf, Iraq), M.A., LLM (Shariah)

Member, Ulama Council of Pakistan

The purpose of the following dialogue is to promote tolerance and intellectual understanding among the Muslim community of the global village. The Modern World humiliates the Muslims with the fact that while astronauts have landed the Moon, and other scientists are busy in discoveries of the universe, majority of the Muslims are still following the directions of the clergy, regarding the sighting of the Moon, instead of following the scientific course, upon which religion of Islam is based.

Part I

Published in ‘Daily News’, Karachi on 22-08-2008 & in ‘Yemen Times’ on 22 -09-2008

Origin of the Lunar Calendar: Base of the ‘Ismaili Lunar Calendar’ is Qur’an: "The Sun and the Moon follow exactly computed courses."[1]

This Ayat lays the foundation on which it is permissible to calculate the emergence of new crescent from a Shariah standpoint, and refutes any claim raised by people of limited-understanding who believe that crescent sighting should be followed; because all such erroneous sightings would contradict the findings of this Ayat and at the same time contradict the ‘words of Qur’an’, explaining the orderly movement of the Moon and other celestial bodies. The precise laws, made by Allah, governing the Universe, bear witness to Hikmat ilahiyyah and Adal and also of His favours to His creatures.

It was Bani Fatimah who realized the need of the Lunar Calendar, and they introduced it to the world at large, as soon as they established their vast Empire, even spreading across Europe. This Lunar Calendar remained in practice officially for more than 225 years, in North Africa and across the Atlantic Ocean. The same calendar is in practice officially by the Ismaili Nizaries & Musta’alavis (Dawoodi, Sulaiymani, & Alavi). The notable powerful dynasty of the Sumrahs of Sindh (Pakistan) followed the Lunar Calendar from 365(A.H) to 974(A.H) for more than 609 years, and without any alteration. As elites of Sindh, the Sumrahs handled the affairs of Al Dawah al Hadiyah as Aa’mil of the Ismaili Fatemi Imams in Sindh, whose jurisdiction extended up to the ‘Attock Fort’. Their relationship continued to remain under the command of Al Dai al Mutlaq, one after the other, during the period of Satar. The Ismailis calculate their months according to this Lunar Calendar and least bother(scarcely depend) on the sighting of the Moon for starting a New Year or a New Month, as they have carried out an accurate scientific research on the movements of the Moon. They have a very rich and valuable literature on the subject of ‘Lunar Calendar’, the glorious origin of which goes to Amir al Mumineen, Ali ibn Abi Talib through the references of Abi Abdillah Imam Jafar Assadiq. An authentic scientific chart of ‘Qaran-e-Saghir’ and ‘Qaran-e-Kabir’ is attributed to Ali. [2]

Calculation of the Lunar Cycle:

On an average, a lunar month (or lunation) comprises 29 days 12.73 hours, but it can sometimes be as short as 29 days 6½ hours, or as long as 29 days 20 hours. Fluctuations in length are cyclic. There is a fast cycle averaging about 412 days (which is just under 14 lunar months); which is associated with changes in the eccentricity, or shape of the lunar orbit. This rapid cycle is modified by a slower one whose mean wavelength is 8.85 years (equal to one complete revolution of the axis of the Moon’s elliptical orbit). In addition, there are other oscillations, some causing variations extending over many hundreds of years – when it may not even make sense to look for an average wavelength. Other factors too contribute to the Moon's complex behavior.

For instance, a longer than normal lunation tends to occur between October and March because of the faster movement by the Earth in its orbit round the sun. In February and March, this delays the instant when the Moon appears to overtake the sun. Also, the sun lies closer to a newborn crescent than it would if the Earth's speed was uniform - thus postponing the onset of New Moon visibility. In October and November, on the other hand, the sun's position on the ecliptic line is "behind schedule" - so the Moon overtakes it earlier. Occasionally, four consecutive lunation will span more than 119 days. Under these circumstances, it is possible to have four successive 30-day months. When that happens, the Moon only just becomes visible at the beginning of the first month in the sequence, and just fails to do so on the 29th of the 4th month. A predetermined calendar would certainly make it easier to plan events. Unfortunately, it is not always possible to predict that a newborn crescent will definitely be visible or invisible from a given location, because of the wide grey area separating the two categories. This uncertainty is caused by day to day fluctuations in atmospheric water vapor and dust content.

A Few Logical Examples:

The Ismailis follows a pre-calculated calendar based on a cycle of 30 Muslim years (eleven of which contain 355 days instead of the more common 354–thus totaling 10631 days). The accumulated error in that calendar is about one hour per century. This, together with the cyclic variations in the behavior of the lunar orbit, can bring the Ismaili dates two (or on rare occasions even three) days earlier than those governed strictly by Crescent visibility. In 1412 (A.H), for example, their Ramazan commenced on the morning of 4th March 1992, whereas throughout much of India and the Far East, Sawm did not start till 7th March. There are of course other ways in which a predetermined calendar might be constructed. Mathematical criteria could be laid down – and adopted, regardless of whether or not the crescent happens to be observed. Such guidelines might be based, for example, on the age of the New Moon at dusk (suitably defined), or the lag between sunset and moonset, or the number of degrees separating the sun and moon as they descend. It is then essential to specify either the exact time at which the criteria are to be applied–or the precise location; for example, Makkah would probably be universally acceptable. [3]

Qur’an says:

“Allah enlightens the sun and effulgent moon and created stations for the moon’s movement so that you can keep the counting and records of years”. [4]

The Circulation of the Moon around the Earth is described in the Qur’an, and on the basis of it the Lunar Calendar was designed. The 19th Al Dai al Fatemi, Syedna Idris Imaduddin(d.872/1468, Shib’am, Yemen) discussed the issue and proved that the Moon circulates one time around earth in 29 ½ days and some minutes, and a single circulation is counted as one month. According to calculations, in the Lunar Calendar, a 30 days month is considered complete, and a 29 days month is called incomplete. The first month of Muharram is of 30 days and the second month is of 29 days, so according to this, the last month of Zilhajjah will be of 29 days. At the end of 12 months, some fraction is left between the movement of the Moon and 12 months, and as per calculation 11 leap-years are set in every 30 years in the lunar calendar. That means a leap-year will have 30 days instead of 29 days in the last month, which is Zilhajjah. [5]

Shia Ismaili Point of view:

Shia Ismailies argue that Rasulullah (S) always observed Siy’am by particular calculations and commanded the Ummah to do accordingly. A valuable reference of Maaz bin Kasir is available in “Majm’a al Bahraiyn” which has been transmitted by Huzaifah bin Mansur who asked Abi Abdullah Imam Jafar Assadiq that people say: Rasulullh(S) observed some months of Ramazan for 29 days and some for 30 days. Imam Jafar Assadiq spontaneously rejected this allegation and replied:

“These people are telling lies; Rasulullah(S) has always observed 30 days Siy’aam in the month of Ramazan. From the day Allah created the Sky and the Earth, Ramazan has never ended in 29 Naqis (incomplete) days”. [6]

As Muslims of the early era were not familiar with calculations at that time, the day on which everyone observed Sawm, and celebrated Eid, used to be announced. Once when Rasulullah(S) was leaving Madinah for expedition of ‘Ghazwah Hunain’, people behind him questioned, “We observed Sawm of Ramazan with you, and celebrated Eid with you, as you are leaving, how should we observe it?” Rasulullah(S) guided as follow:

“Observe Sawm of Ramazan by watching Him and celebrate your Eid by watching Him too.” [7]

Children of the Ismaili Dawah argue that the meaning behind the word of Hadith “Ley Ruyate Hee” was Ali, as Rasulullah (S) had appointed him ‘Wali al Amar’ on his seat, in his place. Similarly, there is no doubt that Rasulullah(S) is the Sun of Nubuwah while Ali is the Moon of Imamah. Pointing out this divine reality, Syedna al Moayyid al Shirazi (d.470/1078, Qahera, Egypt) says in a couplet, available in his “Diw’aan” as follow:

“Wa Ya Qamaran B’aada Zakas Siraji; Muniran Bada Lid’diyaji Mubira” [8]

(O Moon which appears after the Sun; in order to remove darkness)

Selected Bibliography

[1] “Al Qur’an”, Surat No.55, Ayat No.5

[2] Alibhai Sharafali, “Sahifat us Sal’aat”, Chart of’ Qaran-e-Kabir wa Qaran-e-Saghir’, Mumbai

[3] David Mc Naughton, “Crescent- sighting & Islamic Calendars”, Hamdard Islamicus, Karachi, January 1997

[4] Al Qur’an

[5] Syedna Idris Imaduddin, “Kit’aab Izah ul Ael’aam”, (in explanation of 29 days of Shab’an and 30 days of Ramazan),manuscript.

[6] 1-“Majma al Bahraiyn”, 2- 39th Alavi Dai, “Kit’aab al ib’anate wal Hil’aal”, Manuscript, (Cross-examination by the learned Shaikh on books like “Kit’aab al Hid’ayah” and “Man La Yahzuruhul Faqih” and established logical scientific approach of the Ismailies)

[7] Syedna Idris Imaduddin, “Kit’aab Izah ul Ael’aam”, (in explanation of 29 days of Shab’an and 30 days of Ramazan). Hadith

[8] Syedna al Moayyid al Shirazi, “Diw’aan”, Qahera

Part II

Published in ‘Daily News’, Karachi on 23-08-2008 & in ‘Yemen Times’ on 06-10-2008

Syedna Hamiduddin al Kirmani (d. in between 411-427 A.H.), maintained that Allah has created everything in pairs, so no one could share and compete with Him. Qur’an says:

“He is sacred who created everything in pairs.” [9]

In another Ayat this matter is clarified as follow:

“We have created everything in pairs. May you remember” [10]

The learned writer of “Al Risalah al Lazimah”, Syedna Hamiduddin al Kirmani says:

It is fact that we also find pairs in everything for e.g. diamond and gems, dryness and swamp, high lands and tropical area, similarly day and night, good and bad deeds, body and soul, emergence and disappearance, Duniya and Akhirah, male and female etc. this chain is very long. Similarly Rasulullah (S) has raised Shariat on the basis of pairs, for e.g. Sal’aat & Zak’aat, Siy’aam & Haj, Az’aan & Iqamat, Haj & Umrah, Safa & Marwa, Faraz & Sunnat, Ruku & Sujud etc. In this manner there are two types of observation, which are adjoining with each other, physical and spiritual. Physical observation is linked with eyes that can observe colours and geometrical figures; on the other hand a spiritual observation is linked with the mind and soul which can attain and observe those things, which physically is not possible. Attainment of these objects is beyond the physical power. Qur’an says:

“Thus heart did not lie whatever it saw and……O’ Mohammad! Did not you observe your Creator that how He enlarged the shade (of sky)” [11]

And Qur’an says:

“(O’ Mohammad!) Did not you see what your Creator did with ‘Ash’aab al Feel’?” [12]

Rather we know that Rasulullah (S) was not present in the period of ‘Ash’aab al Feel’, that he would see them. So, the meaning of observation is linked with ilm and Marifat. For example we say that someone is blind by heart, which means he is short- sighted and incapable to understand. [13]

It is the opinion of the people, who follow Qiyas that sometimes the month of Ramazan, is perfect and sometimes imperfect. They believed that the Siyam of Ramazan is based on the sighting of moon. These people refer to the following Hadith as evidence:

“People should observe Siy’am and celebrate their Eid by observing him. If clouds appear, then observe Siy’am for thirty days.” [14]

This Hadith is Zaeef and non authentic. We will describe with irrefutable arguments that the month of Ramazan is always perfect and is not imperfect in any circumstances. First of all, we categorically deny and refute the argument of any person who says that, “observe Ramazan and celebrate Eid by watching (Moon) him”. We would like to guide that person and explain the meaning. When Rasulullah (S) decided to join the expedition, prior to the month of Ramazan, some of his Ash’ab approached him and asked, “O Rasulullah (S) we did our Siy’am by observing you and similarly celebrated Eid by watching you, so what should we do in your absence. Rasulullah (S) directed as follow:

“Observe Siy’am and celebrate your Eid by observing him”. [15]

Syedna al Moayyid al Shirazi explained this Hadith in Majlis No. 42 of “Al Majalis al Moayyidiyah” as follows:

Thus the root origin of this Hadith explains that it was obligatory to observe the Siyam by the Siy’am of Rasulullah (S) in his presence. Similarly it becomes obligatory to do so with his successor too, in his absence. Thus this law attains permanency in other cases too when Rasul is absent or Imam is present, just as the Ash’ab declared that we observed Siy’am by you. Argument in favor of beginning of the month by sighting the Moon by one of the major wing is totally non acceptable on both bases, religious as well as logical. One of the reasons is that Rasulullah (S) always said that Jibrael regularly came and informed each and everything in the morning or evening. So the one, to whom in the morning and evening, the news of heavens was disclosed, did not have the need to search for the Moon in the sky. If Rasulullah (S) came out in search of the Moon, it is a self contradiction of his own declaration of Wahi, allowing the opponents of Wahi who may raise the question; O Rasulullah (S)! Why did not you ask about the Moon from Jibrael, so that you may be saved from this problem?

The second reason is the following Hadith, which has been recorded in several books as follow: [16]

“Ana Be’turuq’aatis Sam’aae Aarafu Minkum Be ‘turuq’aatil Ard”-“I am more aware of the celestial courses than you are aware of the ways of earth”.

After this Hadith is it logical to assume that Rasulullah (S) would look out for the emergence of the Moon after every 29 days, when an ordinary astrologer is well aware of this fact? It is also a fact that the condition of the earth is different, at different places. At some places the height of the land is so much high i.e.: in mountainous regions where sighting of the Moon becomes easy, while elsewhere it is so much low that the appearance of moon takes time. It is a fact that nothing was hidden from the knowledge of Rasulullah (S). If any knowledge was hidden from Rasulullah (S) than Nubuwah would have been incomplete. It is a universal fact that Rasulullah(S) was free from all faults and defaults. After knowing the difference of opinion, we become sure about the fact that our intellects follow only one aspect, and ignore the logic, reasoning, and even the divine realities of Nubuwah. Why Siy’am was declared Faraz and linked with Haj? It is common that the Moon is visible at some places and not visible at some other place. It is also incorrect and unacceptable, that there should be a day in the month of Shab’an in which the Moon does not appear. This is such an authentic argument that an intellectual just can not ignore it, except an irrational mind. Similarly Qur’an says:

“So, Siy’am has been made Faraz upon you similarly as it was Faraz before you on others. May you become pious”. [17]

The Qur’an points out towards the Christians, among whom Siy’am, is based not on sighting of Moon but on the basis of calculation. Afterwards, Qur’an has indicated a fixed period. It emphasizes that:

“It is the counted days.” [18]

(The readers are requested to please study the above Ayat carefully)

Thus the counted days are those which were surely calculated. Thus there is no need to search for the Moon while the days are calculated. If there is the slightest doubt left, that once the month of Ramazan would be of 29 days and once of 30 days, than Qur’an would never have mentioned the specific words: “Calculated Period”, with great emphasis. Thus the meaning of the “Counted Period” is the perfect counted time. It means it is an equivalent of the statement of the one who has mentioned that this one is counted, and this one is weighed in gold. Another argument is that if the base of a year is on six complete and six incomplete months, so it is compulsory that the base of year should be perfect without any lacuna. The first month Muharram should be perfect and Safar should be imperfect, Rabi al Awwal should be perfect while Rabi al Aakhar should be incomplete, Jamadil Awwal should be perfect while Jamadil Aakhar should be imperfect, Rajab and Ramazan should be perfect. Therefore, the famous Hadith:

“Shab’an will never be perfect and Ramazan will never be imperfect”. [19]

On the imperfectness of Shab’an “Lailat al Nisf” -15th night is enough evidence, other than Rajab and Ramazan. The Night of 15th Shab’an has a different position, because it has 14 nights in the beginning, and 14 nights after it is counted. This law is not applicable to the month of Ramazan, because if the 15th night of Ramazan is declared as half of the month, then it is not correct, because 16 days remain in the month. If the 16th night of Ramazan is declared half of the month then also it is not correct because 16 is not the half of 30.

Kafarat of the Ramazan is also evidence. The one who does not observe Siy’am, without legal excuse, than he/she must observed Siy’am of 2 months. This is the Kafarat of that sin. It is also the double of the days of Ramazan, which are 60 in numbers.

If one is also not eligible to perform this then he/she must arrange food for 60 poor persons. If their was any slightest doubt in the counting of the days of Ramazan, ie: 29 days, then their must be provision available, that one must arrange food as Kafarat for 60 or 58 poor”. [20]

Selected Bibliography

[9] Al Qur’an,

[10] Al Qur’an,

[11] Al Qur’an,

[12] Al Qur’an: Ayat No.1, Surat No. 105,

[13] Syedna Hamiduddin al Kirmani, “Al Risalah al Lazimah Fee Sawme Shahre Ramazan”,

[14] Hadith Maroof

[15] Hadith Maroof

[16] Syedna al Moayyid al Shirazi, “Al Majalis al Moayyidiyah”, manuscript

[17] Al Qur’an: Ayat No.185, Surat No. 2; 2- “Kit’aab al Azh’aar”, Syedi Hasan bin Nuh al Bharunchi, (The learned scholar given an amalgamated survey of Ismaili sources of books on the issue of Ruyat-e- Hil’aal).

[18] Al Qur’an, Ayat No., Surat No.

[19] Hadith Maroof

[20] Syedna al Moayyid al Shirazi, “Al Majalis al Moayyidiyah”, Majlis No. 42, manuscript

Part III

Published in ‘Daily News’, Karachi on 24-08-2008 & in ‘Yemen Times’ on 13-10-2008

19th Al Dai al Fatemi, Syedna Idris Imaduddin has discussed in “Mudhezat al Buht’aan” as follow: [21]

“It is clear that Ahadith and sayings of the Ahl al Bait are not for ‘unbound people’, but it was for those who are not aware with the calculations. This was the practice of Imam Jafar Assadiq. The one who followed him followed Rasulullah (S). Qur’an has clarified that “So, Siy’am is Faraz upon you similarly as it was Faraz before you on others”.

Years and months can be calculated through the Kabisah calculation chart. According to the teaching of Imam Jafar Assadiq, ‘ABJAD ‘chart is used in Kabisah calculation. Account of “Man La Yahzaruhul Faqih” confirms a Tradition of Imam Jafar Assadiq explaining Kabisah formation.[22] This chart was prepared according to the guidance of Qur’an and instructions of Ahl al Bait. Every student of Islam knows this Hadith:

“I am leaving two everlasting precious things among you, one is Qur’an another is the Ahl al Bait” [23]

The learned scholar of Ahl al Bait explains that we can not separate both from each other nor can we follow Qiyas and Rai, which creates clouds of doubts. The discussion is very long but irrefutable. In this book a Hadith is quoted with the reference of one of the wives of Rasulullah(S), who said: “I never saw Rasulullah(S) that he ever observed an in-completed month of Siy’aam of Ramazan and neither found him to observe Siy’aam in any month perfectly”. [24]

Method of Kabisah Calculation: The calendar contains 12 months that are based on the Qur'an. [25]. Hijrah calendar is a purely lunar calendar. It depends on the Moon's cycle around the earth. That is how the Hijrah Calendars have been calculated and prepared. It has twelve lunar months. The average length of a lunar month is 29.53058 (solar) days. As per certain Hikmat, the Hijrah year will contain 29 or 30 days long months. Muharram starts with 30 days. The next month Safar has 29 days, so on so forth. That means the last month of the year Zilhajjah will have 29 days in a month. The total length of the Hijrah year is usually 354 days. There is a small fractional difference between the Moon's cycle around the earth in a year and the Hijrah calendar. To compensate for this difference, there are 11 Kabisah years in a cycle of 30 years. A Kabisah year is a year in which the month of Zilhajjah has 30 days instead of the usual 29 days.

According to the learned writer of “Risalah al Bay’aan”, the following Nabavi instruction was issued at the time when Rasulullah(S) was leaving for an expedition:

“Observe Sawm and celebrate Eid by watching him”. [26]

It contains a particular meaning (not related towards the sighting of moon) which has a significant importance. The above Nabavi commandment was issued at a particular time, when Rasulullah(S) was leaving the Muslim community. A person who was ignorant with the orders of Ramazan asked Rasulullah (S) that “we observed Siyam with you and celebrated Eid with you. Now that you are leaving so how should we observe Siyam? He answered:

“Observe by watching him and celebrate by watching him”. [27]

The persons who asked this question were those who were considered to be simple men with true intentions. So, Rasulullah (S) instructed them emphatically to follow his Ahl al Bait”. This matter has been clarified in detail in “Daem al Islam” of Syedna Qazi al Nauman (d.363/974 C.E. Qahera, Egypt). It is only for those, who are able to understand and solve the problem. Allah has fixed the Siyam of Ramazan obligatory. Qur’an says:

“Ramazan is the month in which Qur’an was descended, with Hidayat for people, and which differentiates and clarifies between truth and obscurity. Whoever achieves this month, it is obligatory upon him to observe Siyam, if he is sick or in travel, so must complete it in other days. Allah likes an ease for you, not hardship”. [28]

Concluding Remarks:

The period is of 30 days, neither more nor less. The Moon is entirely different in different places and periods. It is difficult to understand for those who have little information in this matter. The reason of difference in periods is early and late, the first period will be different from the second, and second from third, and in this way this matter is continuous till the end of the year. In this manner the differences in the Moon’s width and height differ, from cities to cities. This dispute was created due to the distance of the Moon when it ascends towards the sky and also when it descends in to the skies. “The ‘Uml Al Qura Calendar’ used by Saudi Arabia who claim it to be for civil purposes only, yet plays a major role in influencing the determination of the 29th day of the month in which the crescent is normally observed”[29].

Selected Bibliography

[21] 19th Al Dai al Fatemi, Syedna Idris Imaduddin “Mudhezat al Buht’aan”, Manuscript (The learned Dai discussed the issue of Ruyat-e-Basari and Ruyat-e-Qalbi also)

[22] “Man La Yahzaruhul Faqih”,

[23] “Hadith Thaqalayn,

[24] “Uyun al Marrif”, Shaikh Sharafali Shaikh Valibhai Sedhpuri, 1297(A.H), Matbae Mohammadi, Mumbai

[25] Al Qur’an, Ayat No. 36-37, Surat No. 9

[26] 19th Al Dai al Fatemi, Syedna Idris Imaduddin, “Risalah al Bay’aan”, manuscript

[27] Hadith

[28] Al Qur’an,

[29] Dr. Muhammad M. H. Khan , “Crescent Sighting Using The ‘Umm al Qura Calendar’ in Saudi Arabia to determine Ramadan and Eid al Fitir of 1422 (A.H) and its implementation for Unity in different countries

[Kismet110]

Jazaka'Allah brother, some very interesting material you've posted. I've come across several ahadeeth myself where it's explicitly mentioned Ramadhan should always be 30 days and no less.

If people paid more attention to sayings of Ai'mma Masoom (as) instead of so-called 'experts' maybe we wouldn't have a situation of 3 different Eid Days in one town just amongst the Shi'ah.

ALI

[haideriam]

(bismillah)

(salam)

may Allah(swt) save us from this qiyas bil raye

Also, we must realize that even if we ignore all jurisprudential differences, we still would not be able to avoid the issue of multiple Eids. Indeed, we see that during the caliphate of Imam Ali (peace be upon him), a man once came and told him that he had sighted the crescent for the month of Shawwal, while no one else had. The Imam told him that since he has sighted the moon himself, it was Eid for him the next day, but for the rest of the community, since there were not two reliable testimonies (as required by Shariah), it would be the 30th of Ramadan. So while it washaram for the man to fast the next day, it was in fact wajib upon everyone else! (Wasail ash-Shia, volume 10, chapter on Fasting)

for the rest read the link.....

http://www.islamicinsights.com/religion/religion/the-neverending-moonsighting-debate.html

(wasalam)

[Ya Aba 3abdillah]

instead of so-called 'experts'

you're an idiot

[Kismet110]

you're an idiot

Ah, this must be your ikhlaq & good manners bursting through or is it part of the code of conduct for SC Admins?

Politeness and good upbringing prevent me repeating the word that comes to mind about you.

"The Holy Imam J’afar Al Sadiq (as) said: The month of Ramadhan is of thirty days. By Allah (swt) it will never be deficient."

Al Kafi Book of Fasting Volume 4 Hadeeth 3

The narrator said to the Holy Imam Ja’far Al Sadiq (as): ‘The people are saying that the Holy Prophet (saw) used to fast 29 days more often than he (s.a.w.) used to fast 30 days’, He (a.s.) said: ‘They lie! The Holy Prophet (saw) did not fast except a complete month and it is the Command of Allah (swt) ‘And complete the number (2:185). The month of Ramadhan is of thirty days, and Shawwal is of twenty nine days and Zulqadah is of thirty days. There is no deficiency ever Allah (swt) the Mighty said ‘And We appointed a time for Musa of thirty nights and completed them with ten and so the appointed time of his Lord was complete forty nights. And Zulhijjah is of twenty nine days and the others will be either complete or incomplete and Shabaan will never be complete.

Tahzib ul Ahkaam Volume 4 Chapter 41 Hadeeth 55

From the OP's post:

"The Ismailis calculate their months according to this Lunar Calendar and least bother (scarcely depend) on the sighting of the Moon for starting a New Year or a New Month, as they have carried out an accurate scientific research on the movements of the Moon. They have a very rich and valuable literature on the subject of ‘Lunar Calendar’, the glorious origin of which goes to Amir al Mumineen, Ali ibn Abi Talib through the references of Abi Abdillah Imam Jafar As Sadiq. An authentic scientific chart of ‘Qaran-e-Saghir’ and ‘Qaran-e-Kabir’ is attributed to Ali."

Read properly before you make abusive comments lest your insult come back to haunt you.

ALI

Edited September 6, 2011 by Kismet110

[Gypsy]

(salam)

I don’t have hadith references but maybe someone else can help locate them.

The Holy Prophet used to fast solely on the moon sighting. He started fasting when he saw the hilal and he celebrated Eid when he saw the hilal. There’s no basis to say that he completed 30 days all the time. There are hadith from the Holy Prophet and his family that they urge people to see the hilal on the night of 29^th of the Holy Month of Ramadhan and if you see the Hilal then the next day is the Eid and if you don’t then you need to complete the thirtieth day of the fast.

[Ya Aba 3abdillah]

Politeness and good upbringing

Politeness and good upbringing equates to respect for our scholars, not disrespect for the 'so called experts'.

Shekh At-Tusi (ra)explains why you people that say it's only 30 have it very wrong.

Al-Istibsar fi ma khtalaf Minal Akhbar

pages 70-71, ch 2 - On Knowing When is the First day of Shahr Ramadhan.

حديد لما يقع عليه القضاء وإنما هو أمر بما يجب من قضاء الفائت كائنا ما كان، وهذه الجملة التي ذكرناها تدل على أن التعليل المذكور لتمام شهر رمضان بثلاثين يوما موضوع لا يصح عن الائمة عليهم السلام، ولو سلم الحديث من جميع ما ذكرناه لم يكن ما تضمنه لفظ متنه محتملا لو فاق العمل على خلاف الاهلة وذلك أن تكذيب العامة فيما ادعوه من صيام رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله شهر رمضان تسعة وعشرين يوما أكثر من صيامه إياه ثلاثين يوما لا يمتنع أن يكون قد صامه تسعة وعشرين يوما غير أن صيامه كذلك كان أقل من صيامه إياه ثلاثين يوما، ولو اقتضى صيامه صلى الله عليه وآله إياه في مدة فرضه عليه في حيوته صلى الله عليه وآله ثلاثين يوما لم يمنع من تغير الحال في ذلك، وكونه في بعض الازمان تسعة وعشرين يوما على ما اسلفناه من القول في ذلك، والقول بعده بأن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله ما صام إلا تاما لا يفيد كون شهر الصيام ثلاثين يوما على كل حال، لان الصوم غير الشهر وهو فعل الصائم، والشهر حركات الفلك وهي فعل الله تعالى، والوصف بالتمام انما هو للصوم الذى هو فعل العبد دون الوصف للزمان الذى هو فعل الله تعالى، وقد بينا ذلك فيما مضى، والاحتجاج لذلك بقول الله تعالى (ولتكملوا العدة) غير موجب ما ظنه أصحاب العدد من أن شهر رمضان لا يكون تسعة وعشرين يوما لان إكمال عدة الشهر الناقص بالعمل في جميعه كاكمال عدة الشهر التام بالعمل في سائره لا يختلف في ذلك أحد من العقلاء، وفصل القول بأن شوالا تسعة وعشرين يوما غير مفيد لما قالوه، بل يحتمل الخبر بكونه كذلك أحيانا دون كونه كذلك بالوجوب على كل حال، والقول بأن ذا القعدة ثلاثون يوما لا ينقص ابدا، وجهه ما ذكرناه من أنه لا يكون ناقصا أبدا حتى لا يتم حينا، والاعتلال لذلك بقوله تعالى: (وواعدنا موسى ثلاثين ليلة) يؤكد هذا التأويل لانه أفاد حصوله في زمن من الازمان جاء بذكره القرآن ثلاثون يوما فوجب بذلك أنه لا يكون ناقصا أبدا، بل قد يكون تاما وإن جاز عليه النقصان، والذى يدل على جواز النقصان على ذي القعدة في بعض الاوقات.

(219) 21 - ما رواه علي بن مهزيار عن الحسين بن يسار عن عبدالله بن جندب عن معاوية بن وهب قال قال: أبو عبدالله عليه السلام إن الشهر الذي يقال أنه لا ينقص ذو القعدة وليس في شهور السنة أكثر نقصانا منه.

وأما القول بأن السنة ثلاثمائة وأربعة وخمسون يوما من قبل ان السموات والارض خلقن في ستة أيام اختزلت من ثلاثمائة وستين يوما لا يفيد أن يكون شهرا منها بعينه ابدا ثلاثين يوما بل يقتضي بأن الستة الايام تتفرق في الشهور كلها على غير تفصيل وتعيين لما يكون ناقصا منها مما يتفق كونه على التمام بدلا من كونه على النقصان، فأما القول بأن شهور السنة تختلف في الكمال والنقصان فيكون منها شهر تام وشهر ناقص لا يوجب ايضا دعوى الخصم في شهر رمضان ما ادعاه ولا في شعبان ما حكم به من نقصانه على كل حال لانها قد تكون على ما تضمنه الوصف من الكمال والنقصان لكنها لا تكون كذلك على الترتيب والنظام، بل لا ينكر ان يتفق فيها شهران متصلان على التمام وشهران متواليان على النقصان وثلاثة اشهر ايضا كما وصفناه، ويكون مع ما ذكرناه على وفاق القول بأن فيها شهرا ناقصا وشهرا تاما إذ ليس في صريح ذلك الاتصال ولا الانفصال.

(220) 22 - فأما ما رواه ابن رباح عن سماعة عن الحسن بن حذيفة عن معاوية بن عمار عن أبي عبدالله عليه السلام في قوله تعالى: (ولتكملوا العدة) قال: صوم ثلاثين يوما.

فهذا الخبر نظير ما تقدم من أنه خبر واحد لا يوجب علما ولا عملا، والكلام عليه كالكلام عليه في أنه لا يجوز الاعتراض به على ظاهر القرآن والاخبار المتواترة ولو صح لم يكن فيه ضد لما قلناه من وجوب العمل على الاهلة، وذلك أن الحكم باكمال العدة للصيام ثلاثين يوما لا يمنع أن يكون إكمال ما في الشهر إذا نقص صيام تسعة وعشرين يوما، إذ المراد باكمال العدة الايام التي هي أيام الشهر على أي حال كان، ولا خلاف ان الشهر الذي هو تسعة وعشرون يوما شهر في الحقيقة دون المجاز ولسنا ننكر أن الواجب علينا عند الاغماء (1) في هلال شوال أن نكمل الشهر ثلاثين يوما وأن ذلك واجب أيضا مع العلم بكمال الشهر، وإذا كان الامر على ما وصفناه سقط التعلق به على خلاف المعلوم من الشرع.

- 219 - التهذيب ج 1 ص 401.

(1) في المطبوعة (الاغمام).

* - 220 - التهذيب ج 1 ص 402 وفيه (هلال شهر رمضان)

Even Kulayni in his footnote on pg 195, ch 4 says "(2) ذلك لان الشهر قد يكون تسعة وعشرين فاذا صام خمسة عشر فقد جاوزالنصف." (Can be 29)

Sheikh Sadouq uses the same footnote in Man Laa Yahdarahul Faqih on pg 152, ch 2

And from Tahtheeb

Chapter 4 pg 156

* (432) * 4 وعنه عن عثمان بن عيسى عن سماعه (1) قال: صيام شهر رمضان بالرؤية وليس بالظن، وقد يكون شهر رمضان تسعة وعشرين ويكون ثلاثين، ويصيبه ما يصيب الشهور من التمام والنقصان.

Chapter 4 pg 160

* (449) * 21 - سعد بن عبدالله عن محمد بن الحسين بن ابي الخطاب عن يزيد بن إسحاق شعر عن هارون بن حمزة عن ابي عبدالله عليه السلام قال: سمعته يقول: إذا صمت لرؤية الهلال وافطرت لرؤيته فقد أكملت صيام شهر، وان لم تصم إلا تسعة وعشرين يوما فان رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله قال: الشهر هكذا وهكذا وهكذا، واشار بيده إلى عشرة وعشرة وتسعة.

* (450) * 22 - وعنه عن موسى بن الحسن عن محمد بن عبدالحميد عن يونس بن يعقوب قال: قلت لابي عبدالله عليه السلام اني صمت شهر رمضان على رؤية تسعة وعشرين يوما وما قضيت قال فقال: وانا قد صمته وما قضيت، ثم قال لي قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله: الشهور شهر كذا وكذا وشهر كذا وكذا.

and PLENTY more on pages 161 - 162 http://www.alseraj.n...hzib-4/a42.html

and Wasa'il has a whole chapter on the possibility of it being 29 http://www.rafed.net...10/v12.html#113

This is the problem with you pseudo-akhbaris, you abandon the experts, you go to the sources yourselves, and you end up corrupting not only yourself but also others, and the Imams warned against you people.

In fact, if you thought about it logically, which other month in the year only has a 'set' number of days? NONE. The moon doesn't slow down or speed up just for Shahr Ramadhan, and no scientific expert or astrophysicist has suggested it does either.

[Kismet110]

^^^

So why didn't you in the first place post the above as a counterpoint rather than resorting to personal abuse? What you, I or anyone else post on here should be to learn, educate or ponder, it's not a hujjah on anyone, if what people read strikes a cord then they reflect on it.

I've not abused or ridiculed any scholar nor have I tried to 'corrupt' anyone or am I 'corrupted'. That's your opinion and you're entitled to it but if apposite views aren't allowed then shut down this website or vet every posting to ensure it complies with Usooli thinking.

Thanks for the above, I will read and digest.

ALI

[Ya Aba 3abdillah]

So why didn't you in the first place post the above as a counterpoint rather than resorting to personal abuse?

Bro, i don't need to. Seriously man, think about it, there's been thousands of scholars that have up until now studied religion and been through the ahadith a trillion times over. You think that if it was so obvious that shahr ramadhan was exactly 30 days, no one would have picked up on it by now? What do you think Sayyid Al-Khoe'i did in a hawza for 50+ years, read JRR Tolkien? Yet we just shove him off as if he was nothing, and insult him or sayyid sistani by calling them 'so-called experts'. This is specifically why the Imams (as) warned the laymen to refer to 'ulumaa'. The Maraaji' have summarized the fiqh related ahadith into easier to understand texsts (risaalas) because the laymen haven't become scholars and studied for decades to be able to deduce their own fatwas from the ahadith. Let's at least show them some of the respect they deserve.

[Kismet110]

I wasn't specifically referring to scholars when I wrote 'experts', people also use astronomy/scientific data to calculate (when there is cloud cover/low visibility) and you won't see me disagreeing about agha Khoi'e.

Even non-Shi'ah appreciate the intelligence & knowledge of scholars from our faith, having a different view on some things or not being convinced entirely about xyz doesn't negate that fact.

ALI

[guest 34193]

Even Kulayni in his footnote on pg 195, ch 4 says "(2) ذلك لان الشهر قد يكون تسعة وعشرين فاذا صام خمسة عشر فقد جاوزالنصف." (Can be 29)

Sheikh Sadouq uses the same footnote in Man Laa Yahdarahul Faqih on pg 152, ch 2

Err, bro, those footnotes aren't by Shaykh Kulayni and Shaykh Saduq... And in fact both of them (most clearly Saduq) appear to have believed that the month of Ramadan is always 30 days, never 29. In fact Saduq said this in his Kitab al-Khisal in regards to the issue:

قال مصنف هذا الكتاب رضي الله عنه: مذهب خواص الشيعة وأهل الاستبصار منهم في شهر رمضان، أنه لا ينقص عن ثلاثين يوما أبدا، والأخبار في ذلك موافقة للكتاب، ومخالفة للعامة، فمن ذهب من ضعفة الشيعة إلى الأخبار التي وردت للتقية، في أنه ينقص ويصيبه ما يصيب الشهور من النقصان والتمام، اتقى كما تتقى العامة.

So if you're going to talk about referring to the experts and respecting them, it'd better if you started out by realizing this is an issue where some of the greats have themselves differed on, and not to be so hasty in condemning something you don't know.

[Ya Aba 3abdillah]

Err, bro, those footnotes aren't by Shaykh Kulayni and Shaykh Saduq.

Clear example why Scholars are needed :)

So whose footnotes are they? And what about the contradicting 'sahih' hadiths, and what about Shekh Tusi's explanation of the contradictions?

[Orion]

I wasn't specifically referring to scholars when I wrote 'experts',

For real?

:no:

[Ugly Jinn]

And what about those people living in areas where the sun doesn't set/rise for months at a time?

I really need a Hadith for this cause I plan to retire in Greenland or Sweden, still undecided.

[rotten_coconut]

Err, bro, those footnotes aren't by Shaykh Kulayni and Shaykh Saduq... And in fact both of them (most clearly Saduq) appear to have believed that the month of Ramadan is always 30 days, never 29. In fact Saduq said this in his Kitab al-Khisal in regards to the issue:

قال مصنف هذا الكتاب رضي الله عنه: مذهب خواص الشيعة وأهل الاستبصار منهم في شهر رمضان، أنه لا ينقص عن ثلاثين يوما أبدا، والأخبار في ذلك موافقة للكتاب، ومخالفة للعامة، فمن ذهب من ضعفة الشيعة إلى الأخبار التي وردت للتقية، في أنه ينقص ويصيبه ما يصيب الشهور من النقصان والتمام، اتقى كما تتقى العامة.

So if you're going to talk about referring to the experts and respecting them, it'd better if you started out by realizing this is an issue where some of the greats have themselves differed on, and not to be so hasty in condemning something you don't know.

How to reconciliate such ahadith (the month of Ramadan is always 30 days) with the ahadith commanding us to look at hilal for the start & end of the month of Ramadan?

[Gypsy]

How to reconciliate such ahadith (the month of Ramadan is always 30 days) with the ahadith commanding us to look at hilal for the start & end of the month of Ramadan?

I am also interested to know the answer to this question. Moon sightings (is one of the Sunnah of the Holy Prophet). But moon sightings don’t guarantee perfect 30 days in the Holy Month of Ramadhan. The hilal can only been sighted when it becomes visible to us but we fast based on the solar cycle (Sunrise – Sunset).

There is also a start period when you should look for the new moon/hilal. Remember that the Saudis celebrated the Eid on the 29th of the month of Ramadhan because they started hunting for the moon ...way earlier that what is prescribe by the Islamic Sharia.

[guest 34193]

How to reconciliate such ahadith (the month of Ramadan is always 30 days) with the ahadith commanding us to look at hilal for the start & end of the month of Ramadan?

According to Saduq, since the 29/30 days ones agree with the `Aamma while the always 30 ones do not, the former would be issued under taqiyya while the latter represent the authentic position. He also says the 30 days ones agree with the Quran.

(note: I'm not stating my own position here necessarily, just trying to clarify what he thought)

[rotten_coconut]

According to Saduq, since the 29/30 days ones agree with the `Aamma while the always 30 ones do not, the former would be issued under taqiyya while the latter represent the authentic position. He also says the 30 days ones agree with the Quran.

(note: I'm not stating my own position here necessarily, just trying to clarify what he thought)

Both types of ahadith are authentic?

[siraatoaliyinhaqqun]

Both types of ahadith are authentic?

Going by the man made current system of ilm rijaal any thing is possible. THE ahadees are to agree with quran or with other available ahadees on the same issue and if they don't we see the Sunni position. And that's what sudooq is talking about.

Edited September 8, 2011 by siraatoaliyinhaqqun

[Islamic Salvation]

باب الأهلة و الشهادة عليها

Chapter on the new moons and their sighting

علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه ; ومحمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد جميعا، عن ابن أبي عمير، عن حماد بن عثمان، عن الحلبي، عن أبي عبدالله (ع) قال: إنه سئل عن الاهلة فقال: هي أهلة الشهور فإذا رأيت الهلال فصم وإذا رأيته فأفطر

6314 1[Muhammad bin Yaqub from] Ali bin Ibrahim from his father (Ibrahim bin Hashim) AND Muhammad bin Yahya from Ahmad bin Muhammad all together from Ibn Abi Umayr from Hammad bin Uthman from (Ubaydullah bin Ali) al-Halabiy from Abi Abdillah (ع), said (al-Halabiy): He was asked about the crescents, so He said: it is the crescents (or the new moons) of the months, so if you see the crescent (new moon) then fast, and if you see it then break your fast. (Sahih)

NOTE: He was asked about verse 'they ask you about the crescents' 2:189

حماد، عن الحلبي، عن أبي عبدالله (ع) قال: كان علي (ع) يقول: لا أجيز في الهلال إلا شهادة رجلين عدلين

6315 2[Muhammad bin Yaqub from Ali bin Ibrahim from his father (Ibrahim bin Hashim) AND Muhammad bin Yahya from Ahmad bin Muhammad from Ibn Abi Umayr from] Hammad bin Uthman from (Ubaydullah bin Ali) al-Halabiy from Abi Abdillah (ع) that He said: Ali (ع) used to say: I do not allow in (the matter of the sighting) of the new moon except for the witness of two just men. (Sahih)

محمد بن يحيى، عن محمد بن الحسين، عن علي بن الحكم، عن العلاء، عن محمد بن مسلم (1) قال: لا تجوز شهادة النساء في الهلال

6316 3[Muhammad bin Yaqub from] Muhammad bin Yahya from Muhammad bin Husayn from Ali bin Hakam from Al'a (bin Razin) from Muhammad bin Muslim (1) who said: It is not allowed the witness of a woman in the (matter of the sighting of the) new moon. (Sahih)

NOTE: There is a discontinuity as far as Ibn Muslim not mentioning explicit taking from an Imam, so it is Hadith Sahih Madhmuniy and not Hadith Sahih Musarih.

علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن ابن أبي عمير، عن حماد بن عثمان، عن أبي عبدالله (ع) قال: قال أميرالمؤمنين صلوات الله عليه: لا تجوز شهادة النساء في الهلال و لا تجوز إلا شهادة رجلين عدلين

6317 4[Muhammad bin Yaqub from] Ali bin Ibrahim from his father (Ibrahim bin Hashim) from Ibn Abi Umayr from Hammad bin Uthman from Abi Abdillah (ع) who said: the commander of the faithful (peace be upon him) had said: It is not allowed - the witnessing of the women in (the matter of the sighting of) the new moon, and it is not allowed in it -the witnessing - except it is two just men. (Hasan)

عدة من أصحابنا، عن أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى، عن علي بن الحكم، عن سيف ابن عميرة، عن الفضل بن عثمان قال: قال أبو عبدالله (ع): ليس على أهل القبلة إلا الرؤية، ليس على المسلمين إلا الرؤية

6318 5[Muhammad bin Yaqub from] A number of our companions from Ahmad bin Muhammad bin Isa from Ali bin Hakam from Sayf bin Umayra from Fadhl bin Uthman who said: Abu Abdillah (ع) said: there is nothing for the people of the Qibla except the sighting (of the moon), there is nothing for the Muslims except the sighting (of the moon). (Sahih)

أحمد، عن علي بن الحكم، عن أبي أيوب الخزاز، عن محمد بن مسلم، عن أبي جعفر (ع) قال: إذا رأيتم الهلال فصوموا وإذا رأيتموه فأفطروا وليس بالرأي ولا بالتظني وليس الرؤية أن يقوم عشرة نفر فيقول واحد: هو ذا وينظر تسعة فلا يرونه، لكن إذا رآه واحد رآه ألف

6319 6[Muhammad bin Yaqub from a number of our companions from] Ahmad (bin Muhammad bin Isa) from Ali bin Hakam from Abi Ayub al-Khazzaz from Muhammad bin Muslim from Abi Ja'far who said: if you sight the crescent then fast, and if you sight it (again) then break your fast (i.e. at end of Shahr Ramadhan), and it is not by opinion or conjecture, and it is not (true) sighting - that (out of) ten men standing (to see it) one of them says: there it is, and the remaining nine try to view it and fail to do so, rather (true sighting) is when one sees it, a thousand can do too. (Sahih)

علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن ابن أبي عمير، عن حماد، عن أبي عبدالله (ع) قال: إذا رأوا الهلال قبل الزوال فهو لليلته الماضية وإذا رأوه بعد الزوال فهو لليلته المستقبلة

6323 10[Muhammad bin Yaqub from] Ali bin Ibrahim from his father (Ibrahim bin Hashim) from Ibn Abi Umayr from Hammad (bin Uthman) from Abi Abdillah (ع) who said: if they see the (crescent of the) new moon before noon then it is of the previous night, and if they see it after noon, then it is for the coming night. (Hasan)

أحمد بن محمد، عن بكر ; ومحمد بن أبي صهبان، عن حفص، عن عمر [و] بن سالم ; ومحمد بن زياد بن عيسى (2)، عن هارون بن خارجة قال: قال أبو عبدالله (ع): عد شعبان تسعة وعشرين يوما فإن كانت متغيمة فأصبح صائما فان كانت صاحية وتبصرته ولم تر شيئا فأصبح مفطرا

[Muhammad bin Yaqub from a number of our companions from] Ahmad bin Muhammad from Bakr AND Muhammad bin Abi Suhban (Muhammad bin Abdil Jabbar) from Hafs from Amr(u) bin Salim AND Muhammad bin Ziyad bin Isa (Ibn Abi Umayr) from Harun bin Kharijah who said: Abu Abdillah (ع) said: count the Sha'ban twenty nine days, so (on the twenty ninth night) if it is cloudy then wake up fasting, and if it (the night) is clear and you looked for it but did not see anything then wake up not fasting. (Majhul - Sahih ala Dhahir)

NOTE: The majority of our companions have interpreted this as Istihbab.

<This what is Mu'tabar relevant to the topic in this appropriate chapter for it>

Edited September 8, 2011 by Islamic Salvation

[Islamic Salvation]

As for the thirty day Ahadith, then first of all, al-Kulayni places them in the chapter on miscellenea, immediately following the above translated main chapter, and this is enough for one with insight into his practise, for he always preferred the strongest Ahadith to precede in the chapter.

And this (above mentioned) chapter contains these three Ahadith below, which are weakness upon weakness, and the one who wishes to stand up his Madhab upon them (contrary to what came before from the leading men of the Taifah) then he has gripped the loosest handle.

For in the first and the last is Muhammad bin Sinan, and the middle one has Sahl bin Ziyad and is Munqati, this is mentioned (neglecting other weakness in the chain)

باب نادر

Chapter on Miscellenea

علي بن محمد، عن صالح بن أبي حماد، عن ابن سنان، عن حذيفة بن منصور عن أبي عبدالله (ع) قال: شهر رمضان ثلاثون يوما لا ينقص أبدا (3). وعنه عن الحسن بن الحسين، عن ابن سنان، عن حذيفة مثله

6326 1[Muhammad bin Yaqub from] Ali bin Muhammad from Salih bin Abi Hammad from Ibn Sinan from Hudhayfa bin Mansur from Abi Abdillah (ع) who said: the month of Ramadhan is thirty days, it never decreases ever.

[and from him (Ali bin Muhammad) from Hasan bin Husayn from Ibn Sinan from Hudhayfa its like] (both Asanid Dhaif since Ibn Sinan is Muhammad)

عدة من أصحابنا، عن سهل بن زياد، عن محمد بن إسماعيل، عن بعض أصحابه، عن أبي عبدالله (ع) قال: إن الله تبارك وتعالى خلق الدنيا في ستة أيام ثم اختزلها (5) عن أيام السنة والسنة ثلاثمائة وأربع وخمسون يوما شعبان لا يتم أبدا رمضان لا ينقص والله أبدا ولا تكون فريضة ناقصة إن الله عزوجل يقول: "و لتكملوا العدة (1) " وشوال تسعة وعشرون يوما وذوالعقدة ثلاثون يوما لقول الله عزوجل: " وواعدنا موسى ثلاثين ليلة وأتممناها بعشرفتم ميقات ربه أربعين ليلة (2) " وذو الحجة تسعة وعشرون يوما والمحرم ثلاثون يوما، ثم الشهور بعد ذلك شهر تام وشهر ناقص

6327 2[Muhammad bin Yaqub from] A number of our companions from Sahl bin Ziyad from Muhammad bin Ismail from some of his companions from Abi Abdillah (ع) who said: Indeed Allah - glorified and sanctified - created the earth in six days, then he divided it up into the days of the year, and the year is three hundred and forty five days, the days of Sha'ban never complete (i.e. reach thirty), and the days of Ramadhan by Allah never decrease ever (i.e. from thirty), and the Faridha (i.e. of Sawm) is never deficient, Allah عزوجل says: "And that you may complete the number" (2:181), and Shawal is twenty nine days, and Dhul Qa'da is thirty days - by the saying of Allah عزوجل "And we promised Moses thirty nights and we completed it by ten, so it finished the meeting of your lord (with him) forty days" (7:142), and Dhul Hijjah is twenty nine days, and Muharram is thirty days, then the months after that are complete months and deficient months (alternatingly).(Dhaif alal Mashur and in it is Sahl and it is also Mursal)

محمد بن يحيى، عن محمد بن الحسين، عن ابن سنان، عن حذيفة بن منصور، عن معاذ بن كثير، عن أبى عبدالله (ع) قال: شهر رمضان ثلاثون يوما لا ينقص والله أبدا

6328 3[Muhammad bin Yaqub from] Muhammad bin Yahya from Muhammad bin Husayn from Ibn Sinan from Hudhayfa bin Mansur from Ma'adh bin Kathir from Abi Adillah (ع) who said: the month of Ramadhan is thirty days, it never decreases by Allah (ever). (Dhaif alal Mashur)

Edited September 8, 2011 by Islamic Salvation

[Gypsy]

So the 30 days hadith is very weak based on the strength of the narrators.

[Islamic Salvation]

As far as the thirty day Ahadith in al-Kafi are concerned then they are very weak,

All three of them in the chapter above, two have got Muhammad bin Sinan, one has got Sahl bin Ziyad and is also Mursal.

Yes, Ilm Rijal is not the be all, and not all Sahih Isnad Hadith are Sahih in actuality, and not all Dhaif Isnad Hadith are Dhaif in actuality, but it produces some such results that prove its ability for crude sifting.

Edited September 8, 2011 by Islamic Salvation

[Muhammed Ali]

Going by the man made current system of ilm rijaal any thing is possible. THE ahadees are to agree with quran or with other available ahadees on the same issue and if they don't we see the Sunni position. And that's what sudooq is talking about.

You are approaching this matter with the assumption that the narrations which tell us how to deal with contradictory ahadith are indeed from the Ahlulbayt [a]. I am not personally denying their authenticity but all of us need to justify the approach that we take with regards to the ahadith. Let's say a new convert to shi'ism asked you how to to deal with contradictory ahadith and you presented him with the narrations which tell us how to deal with them. Then he asked you to demonstrate the authenticity of those narrations, what would you do?

My point is we need a foundationalist approach, not a coherentist one. Look up coherentism and foundationalism if you have to.

Edited September 8, 2011 by Muhammed Ali

[Gypsy]

As far as the thirty day Ahadith in al-Kafi are concerned then they are very weak,

All three of them in the chapter above, two have got Muhammad bin Sinan, one has got Sahl bin Ziyad and is also Mursal.

Yes, Ilm Rijal is not the be all, and not all Sahih Isnad Hadith are Sahih in actuality, and not all Dhaif Isnad Hadith are Dhaif in actuality, but it produces some such results that prove its ability for crude sifting.

Thanks Brother. The moon sightings cannot really guarantee 30 days in the month of Ramadhan.

Also the Sunnis do not always fast for 30 days. They also go for moon sightings hence they sometimes fast for 29 or 30 days.

[haideriam]

(bismillah)

(salam)

Also, we must realize that even if we ignore all jurisprudential differences, we still would not be able to avoid the issue of multiple Eids. Indeed, we see that during the caliphate of Imam Ali (peace be upon him), a man once came and told him that he had sighted the crescent for the month of Shawwal, while no one else had. The Imam told him that since he has sighted the moon himself, it was Eid for him the next day, but for the rest of the community, since there were not two reliable testimonies (as required by Shariah), it would be the 30th of Ramadan. So while it washaram for the man to fast the next day, it was in fact wajib upon everyone else! (Wasail ash-Shia, volume 10, chapter on Fasting)

could not be 30/31 days, so must have been 29/30.

what does it say

both are valid, ie 29 and 30 days

with the sanction of the imam(as)

talk of difference in fatwas in fiqh.

so in essence this is saying don't make mountains out of molehills.

when you don't know.

(wasalam)

[siraatoaliyinhaqqun]

(bismillah)

(salam)

Also, we must realize that even if we ignore all jurisprudential differences, we still would not be able to avoid the issue of multiple Eids. Indeed, we see that during the caliphate of Imam Ali (peace be upon him), a man once came and told him that he had sighted the crescent for the month of Shawwal, while no one else had. The Imam told him that since he has sighted the moon himself, it was Eid for him the next day, but for the rest of the community, since there were not two reliable testimonies (as required by Shariah), it would be the 30th of Ramadan. So while it washaram for the man to fast the next day, it was in fact wajib upon everyone else! (Wasail ash-Shia, volume 10, chapter on Fasting)

could not be 30/31 days, so must have been 29/30.

what does it say

both are valid, ie 29 and 30 days

with the sanction of the imam(as)

talk of difference in fatwas in fiqh.

so in essence this is saying don't make mountains out of molehills.

when you don't know.

(wasalam)

I see! Is it an individual obligation then?

[Abu Tufayl]

(bismillah)

The Bohris believe Ramadhan is always 30 days. It's funny cause they usually start Ramadan before everyone else, too.

Their calendar is solar (how?).

Wallahu a`lam. I don't understand how some of the mutaqadimeen believed it always be 30 days as some people clearly saw the moon after 29 days only. Unless then he'd just say we must have started late...

في أمان الله

[Ali-Mohammed]

Wa 'alaykumus Salam...

I think too that is 30 days. Moreover in the 10 books of Bihar Al Anwar, there are 2 jewishs brothers who asked to Amirul Muminin (as) questions. One of them ask about what is 30 ? And Imam Ali (as) answered him that is the 30 days in the Month of Ramadan !!!