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Ya Aba 3abdillah

Pseudo-akhbari Accusations Against the Maraaji'

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Get some real replies. Quoting Usoolis ulemas opinions to an akhbari is not the way of answering because I give a damn to their opinions. Quote the ahadees from Aimma a.s. in full without your addition or substractioon, and without personal opinions. The ahadees should agree with Quran and other ahadees on the same issue. Then you can say that you have given a reply.

You have already been given the articles with ayats and hadith. Just remove the comments attached to them .....and you have your proof.

this is something i noticed many usoolis here are guilty of, but orion in particular. i call these people "bracket believers" since they base most of their faith on what is in brackets that they add themselves rather than the actual hadith itself.

Bring your proof if you are truthful (Quran)

Edited by Orion

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You have already been given the articles with ayats and hadith. Just remove the comments attached to them .....and you have your proof.

Bring your proof if you are truthful (Quran)

remember accusing akhbaris for writing ismael testifies la ilaha ilallah on kafan. It was such a big thing for u and Murtuza mutahhari and it was proven wrong.

Then when I showed u White socks as being sign of arrogance u played up as if u were colour blind and accused me. And when u were proven wrong again; u shrugged and said it's a minor issue.

But kafan was a major issue eh?

Whatelse, u have achieved heights of accusing others for ur own mistakes. And no ur aeticles are not at all clear. Bring me an original argument.

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remember accusing akhbaris for writing ismael testifies la ilaha ilallah on kafan. It was such a big thing for u and Murtuza mutahhari and it was proven wrong.

Do you know how many different groups of Akhbari exist. Each group saying that the other Akhbari claimer is wrong. So how can you say that none of the Akhbaris ever practiced writing "Ismail testifies....".

Then when I showed u White socks as being sign of arrogance u played up as if u were colour blind and accused me. And when u were proven wrong again; u shrugged and said it's a minor issue.

I never said it was a minor issue. I take everything seriously if we have a hadith related to it. Quote my post where I said it was a "minor issue".

Also nothing was proven. The photos were not clear enough to determine the colour of socks.

Whatelse, u have achieved heights of accusing others for ur own mistakes. And no ur aeticles are not at all clear. Bring me an original argument.

We are not here to spoon feed you. Do some work yourself. Separate hadith from the articles and ponder over them.

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Do you know how many different groups of Akhbari exist. Each group saying that the other Akhbari claimer is wrong. So how can you say that none of the Akhbaris ever practiced writing "Ismail testifies....".

I never said it was a minor issue. I take everything seriously if we have a hadith related to it. Quote my post where I said it was a "minor issue".

Also nothing was proven. The photos were not clear enough to determine the colour of socks.

We are not here to spoon feed you. Do some work yourself. Separate hadith from the articles and ponder over them.

Well I remember reading your post about it in this http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/234993725-question-to-akhbaris/page__st__25 but I cant find it now. And the headgear was the same colour as the socks and I got that picture from the ulema thread in general discussions, so you can check the big one and many others where they have been found with white socks. I dont say that they dont wear black socks at all as you pointed out but all I wanted to give was an example to bro MDM who asked me about Qiyas.

and yes there can be a minimum of four groups of believers at one given time

4-66 ÍÏËäÇ ÃÈí ÑÖí Çááå Úäå ÞÇá ÍÏËäÇ ÓÚÏ Èä ÚÈÏÇááå Úä ãÍãÏ Èä ÇáÍÓíä Èä ÃÈí ÇáÎØÇÈ Úä ÚËãÇä Èä ÚíÓì Úä ÎÇáÏ Èä äÌíÍ Úä ÃÍÏåãÇ ÚáíåãÇ ÇáÓáÇã ÞÇá: áíÓ ÊÎáæ ÇáÇÑÖ ãä ÃÑÈÚÉ ãä ÇáãÄãäíä æÞÏ íßæäæä ÃßËÑ æáÇ íßæäæä ÃÞá ãä ÃÑÈÚÉ æÐáß Ãä ÇáÝÓØÇØ áÇ íÞæã ÅáÇ ÈÃÑÈÚÉ ÃØäÇÈ æÇáÚãæÏ Ýí æÓØå

4-66 (The compiler of al khisaal narrated) that his father - may God be pleased with him - narrated that Sa’ed ibn Abdullah quoted Muhammad ibn al-Hussein ibn Abil Khat’tab, on the authority of Uthman ibn Isa, on the authority of Khalid ibn Najih, on the authority of one of the Immaculate Imams (MGB), “The Earth will never be void of four groups of believers. Sometimes there will be more than that but it will never be less just as a tent would not stay upright without four ropes and a middle pillar.”

Dont spoon feed me but when you give reference then read it yourself before posting it.

Ya Ali madad

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Quote the ahadees from Aimma a.s. in full without your addition or substractioon, and without personal opinions. The ahadees should agree with Quran and other ahadees on the same issue. Then you can say that you have given a reply.

Salam brother,

Excellent reply.

1. If I quote you the ahedees from Aimma a.s. in full without your addition or substractioon, and without personal opinions, how would you verify them to be true hadiths?

Edited by aladdin

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Sorry, only properly qualified scholars are allowed to declare something biddah. We cant allow layperson to come here and tell us that all our Marja are innovators.

This 'qualification' excuse is somewhat pathetic and totally ignorant. If a human is qualified to declare whether God exists or not, which is monumental compared to fallibe rules, and if a human is qualified to declare which religion to follow, which also is monumental compared to fallible rules, then you are in no position to make that statement.

So let's sum this up logically:

Allah exists or not = We are qualified to discuss

Islam false or true religion = We are qualified to discuss

Sunni vs Shia - We are qualified to discuss

Fallible rules within Shia sect = HOW DARE YOU!! WHERE ARE THE MODS?!?! THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS!!

You really need to prioritize using common sense and logic. And I repeat, these discussion are not for you. Maybe you should only stick with topics that convince the convinced.

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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Ugh you guys are still at it... Ninja_vs_Pirate_by_CookiemagiK.gif

Ugly believes that Imam Hassas (as) married more than four wives simultaneously, I am not sure if he is a Muslim, let alone a Shia.

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Bring your proof if you are truthful (Quran)

Curse the Liars (Quran)

did you or did you not quote this from bashir najafi:

Imam Zamana (a.s) says:-

0SjaE.png

This means it is obligatory (incumbent) (wajib) on the people should direct their problems to the scholars for crisis of culture or any other impending problems. Imam has made them a guide to the people. In the same way as the Imam is a guide to not just the scholar but to the whole world. And there are some traditions where the imam has given permission to his students to issue religious rulings (fatwas). Imam said to Aban bin Taghlab

to which nader zaveri replied:

(salam)

(bismillah)

This hadeeth has been mistranslated too many times. No where in this hadeeth does it say waajib (I know he was giving the summary, but many others have added waajib in the translation), rather it says "And as for new events, return/consult the narrators of our traditions, they are hujjah upon you, and I am Allaah's hujjah upon them".

How can you derive that hadeeth as proof for it being waajib? Asking scholars is not against the akhbaris, so this hadeeth would fall under the akhbari interpretation as well, which is "return/consult" the muhaddithoon (narrators of traditions).

Also I wanted to add, the SAME hadeeth that is used to prove taqleed is the same hadeeth that talks about khums and it being "free" for the Shee`ahs until his (as) reappearance.

وأما الخمس فقد ابيح لشيعتنا وجعلوا منه في حل إلى وقت ظهور أمرنا لتطيب ولادتهم ولا تخبث .

“And as for al-khums, then it has been made permissible for our shee`ah, and they have been made free of it until the time of dhuhoor of our affair, so that their birds be made pure, and not impure”

Aren't we the ones who get mad at Sunnis when they take one sentence out of the hadeeth? Then why is it okay to do it now?

(salam)

you were saying........?

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(bismillah)

^^ I quoted as it is from Grand Ayatullah Sheikh Bashir Najafi's official website. Here is the link: http://www.alnajafi....on-taqleed.html

Are you accusing Sheikh Najafi of putting things within brackets to deceive people (nauzobillah)??????

And regarding Wajib, I have already explained that when our Master Imam al-Asr (ATF) tells us to do something, its as good as WAJIB for us.

Finally, I would rather accept the explanation of hadith from a qualified expert like Ayatullah Bashir Najafi than someone like Mr. Nader from shiachat.

Long live all our Marjas.

Edited by Orion

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(bismillah)

(salam)

^^^^^^^

new one,

shia literalists

hujja is there and still want the word wajib

ya mehdi(as) adrikni

A servant does what his master says. These literalists have gone so far that they want to question if a command from our Master Imam Al-Asr (ATF) is obligatory or just a recommendation for them.

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4-66 حدثنا أبي رضي الله عنه قال حدثنا سعد بن عبدالله عن محمد بن الحسين بن أبي الخطاب عن عثمان بن عيسى عن خالد بن نجيح عن أحدهما عليهما السلام قال: ليس تخلو الارض من أربعة من المؤمنين وقد يكونون أكثر ولا يكونون أقل من أربعة وذلك أن الفسطاط لا يقوم إلا بأربعة أطناب والعمود في وسطه

4-66 (The compiler of al khisaal narrated) that his father - may God be pleased with him - narrated that Sa’ed ibn Abdullah quoted Muhammad ibn al-Hussein ibn Abil Khat’tab, on the authority of Uthman ibn Isa, on the authority of Khalid ibn Najih, on the authority of one of the Immaculate Imams (MGB), “The Earth will never be void of four groups of believers. Sometimes there will be more than that but it will never be less just as a tent would not stay upright without four ropes and a middle pillar.”

Ironically the word "group" here is not present in the arabic, it should be "the earth will never be void of four (from the) believers ....", just a case of someone adding a word which can change the meaning.

We are nothing infront of the Marjas, debate is futile, just follow them and you will be safe, since they are the inheritors of the knowledge from the Imams.

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you were saying........?

What Nader Zaveri didn't take into account, is there always occurring events that are not solved by Quran or hadiths, people will face social and political issues, that needs recourse. There needs to be people to asses the occuring problems and the conditions, past dead people will not be able to give proper judgement to occurring events.

An example of an occurring event was what occurred in Iraq. US invaded them, should they accept invasion or should they get them to leave. What type of government should be set up, and what should people do. etc..all this is occurring events...

If you take what the hadith says, then the people to turn to regarding all this, is the "narrators of ahadith"...Now the problem is everyone can narrate a hadith, so this is too general. So Khomeini said it must refer to those whom will be able to pass on TRUE teachings of Ahlebayt vs those not able too. I'm not sure if "narrators of our hadith" can mean that, but to make anyone whom narrates some hadith is obviously problematic, as narrating some hadith doesn't mean you have proper knowledge of Islam.

His argument was not bad, but it puts to much trust in a scholar Does a scholar necessarily have good political and social foresight...but this condition is not there. But it means being a scholar is a condition on whether or not to be referred to for political and social affairs.

I never seen anyone properly respond to this hadith, because they don't take account that occurring events cannot be all solved by Quran and ahadith. And people can't be expected to get all those problems solved by turning to simply a person whom narrates hadith.

It means the people whom people look to for leadership, should be a "narrators of their hadiths"...

Edited by MysticKnight

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and yes there can be a minimum of four groups of believers at one given time

4-66 حدثنا أبي رضي الله عنه قال حدثنا سعد بن عبدالله عن محمد بن الحسين بن أبي الخطاب عن عثمان بن عيسى عن خالد بن نجيح عن أحدهما عليهما السلام قال: ليس تخلو الارض من أربعة من المؤمنين وقد يكونون أكثر ولا يكونون أقل من أربعة وذلك أن الفسطاط لا يقوم إلا بأربعة أطناب والعمود في وسطه

4-66 (The compiler of al khisaal narrated) that his father - may God be pleased with him - narrated that Sa’ed ibn Abdullah quoted Muhammad ibn al-Hussein ibn Abil Khat’tab, on the authority of Uthman ibn Isa, on the authority of Khalid ibn Najih, on the authority of one of the Immaculate Imams (MGB), “The Earth will never be void of four groups of believers. Sometimes there will be more than that but it will never be less just as a tent would not stay upright without four ropes and a middle pillar.”

Ironically the word "group" here is not present in the arabic, it should be "the earth will never be void of four (from the) believers ....", just a case of someone adding a word which can change the meaning.

We are nothing infront of the Marjas, debate is futile, just follow them and you will be safe, since they are the inheritors of the knowledge from the Imams.

More proof of what happens when laypersons start messing with hadith. They cant even translate, let alone understand or interpret them. Hadith sciences are best suited for hadth experts.

0 + 0 = 0

Now what are you doing when you make an statement like "and yes there can be a minimum of four groups of believers at one given time".

You are propagating a false belief and thus misguiding fellow readers.

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We know that khums is broken up into sahm is-saada and sahm il-imaam.

I'm a seyyed and I'll be pleased to accept your khums lil-saadaat. Many good works can be done with your khums here. Msg me for my bank account number (and my chart of lineage (a.k.a shijra) if some nasibi here has any doubt about it). ^_^

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More proof of what happens when laypersons start messing with hadith. They cant even translate, let alone understand or interpret them. Hadith sciences are best suited for hadth experts.

thats a bit rich coming from you, isnt it, mr brackets?

(bismillah)

^^ I quoted as it is from Grand Ayatullah Sheikh Bashir Najafi's official website. Here is the link: http://www.alnajafi....on-taqleed.html

i have already highlighted that i do not rely on his website, since it says something different to what he says when you meet him. plus he cant speak englush.

Are you accusing Sheikh Najafi of putting things within brackets to deceive people (nauzobillah)??????

i think he is a [Edited], however:

(1) its not an accusation. someone in his office who speaks english DID put it in brackets. are you denying this?

(2) you, orion, goebbels, mr brackets, i accuse of believing the falsehood, spreading it and encouraging others to follow you.

(3) lol @ nauzobillah, have i commited shirk by stating what we all can see :huh:

And regarding Wajib, I have already explained that when our Master Imam al-Asr (ATF) tells us to do something, its as good as WAJIB for us.

so when two scholars disagree, or fall out (like ayatollah jawad tabrizi VS fadhlallah) does Imam al-Asr (af) guide them both? go ahead and explain that one to me

Finally, I would rather accept the explanation of hadith from a qualified expert like Ayatullah Bashir Najafi than someone like Mr. Nader from shiachat.

Long live all our Marjas.

explanation? how do you explain words that dont exist in the hadith?

Edited by inshaAllah
Refer to my pm

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(bismillah)

(salam)

so when two scholars disagree, or fall out (like ayatollah jawad tabrizi VS fadhlallah) does Imam al-Asr (af) guide them both? go ahead and explain that one to me

explanation? how do you explain words that dont exist in the hadith?

let me give this a go for many of the arguments advanced against marjaiyya and taqleed and as pointed out by you in the first question in that Allah(swt) has just ordained one day for eid because of the ramifications and again just one time night but surprisingly the world is round and night in europe is day in australia, so where do i go for layla tul qadr.

explain this narration to me, and once you have read it then we must understand that religion and it's laws are not how we want to or do understand them but they are how he has implemented them through the perfect chain of his wilaya.

Also, we must realize that even if we ignore all jurisprudential differences, we still would not be able to avoid the issue of multiple Eids. Indeed, we see that during the caliphate of Imam Ali (peace be upon him), a man once came and told him that he had sighted the crescent for the month of Shawwal, while no one else had. The Imam told him that since he has sighted the moon himself, it was Eid for him the next day, but for the rest of the community, since there were not two reliable testimonies (as required by Shariah), it would be the 30th of Ramadan. So while it washaram for the man to fast the next day, it was in fact wajib upon everyone else! (Wasail ash-Shia, volume 10, chapter on Fasting)

the words in brackets are either how the author has understood them and wants this to be a clarification for all else, but if you look at it on a scale of honesty the author has put them in brackets so you do not confuse the hadith with the understanding

(wasalam)

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(bismillah)

(salam)

let me give this a go for many of the arguments advanced against marjaiyya and taqleed and as pointed out by you in the first question in that Allah(swt) has just ordained one day for eid because of the ramifications and again just one time night but surprisingly the world is round and night in europe is day in australia, so where do i go for layla tul qadr.

explain this narration to me, and once you have read it then we must understand that religion and it's laws are not how we want to or do understand them but they are how he has implemented them through the perfect chain of his wilaya.

Also, we must realize that even if we ignore all jurisprudential differences, we still would not be able to avoid the issue of multiple Eids. Indeed, we see that during the caliphate of Imam Ali (peace be upon him), a man once came and told him that he had sighted the crescent for the month of Shawwal, while no one else had. The Imam told him that since he has sighted the moon himself, it was Eid for him the next day, but for the rest of the community, since there were not two reliable testimonies (as required by Shariah), it would be the 30th of Ramadan. So while it washaram for the man to fast the next day, it was in fact wajib upon everyone else! (Wasail ash-Shia, volume 10, chapter on Fasting)

the words in brackets are either how the author has understood them and wants this to be a clarification for all else, but if you look at it on a scale of honesty the author has put them in brackets so you do not confuse the hadith with the understanding

(wasalam)

How is moon the case of jurispudential difference ? the one that agrees with zulm against ahlulbayth a s cannot celebrate the eid on the right day?

Youm al eid for momineen has to be different from youm al eid of zalimeen; that has been decreed by Allah azwj

You did not even reply to my post in a v/s q thread. You invited me and left it for others to reply and they only said what they wanted to say not what I asked for.

And the hujja in the hadees as u said is because of independent use of ijtegad and ijma as source of law?

Hujja are 14 a.s and their ahadees as an explanation for quran. Any other hadees against quran is not hujja

Edited by siraatoaliyinhaqqun

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(bismillah)

Hujja are 14 a.s and their ahadees as an explanation for quran.

hujja are the 14 infallibles, no doubt. But the hadith says qualified fuqha are hujjat upon us, Imam (ATF) is hujjat upon them and Allah (swt) is hujjat upon the Imam (atf).

Any other hadees against quran is not hujja

^^ who will decide if a certain hadith is with or against Quran?

again you need a properly qualified scholar who is expert in quran and hadith sciences.

You have proven yourself that the "everybody read hadith and practice Islam" methodology does not work. No matter how you look at it, there is no escape from a qualified faqih.

Edited by Orion

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^^^

They quote a part from here and a Part from there and establish their belief on dhaeef ahadees according to their own system of rijaal.

Why dont you admit that your translation was wrong.

The hadith did not have the word "group" and your therefore your understanding of the hadith was flawed. This proves that laymen like you should consult qualified scholars in hadith and not try to self interpret hadith or take hadith sciences lightly.

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(bismillah)

hujja are the 14 infallibles, no doubt. But the hadith says qualified fuqha are hujjat upon us, Imam (ATF) is hujjat upon them and Allah (swt) is hujjat upon the Imam (atf).

^^ who will decide if a certain hadith is with or against Quran?

again you need a properly qualified scholar who is expert in quran and hadith sciences.

You have proven yourself that the "everybody read hadith and practice Islam" methodology does not work. No matter how you look at it, there is no escape from a qualified faqih.

Everybody don't learn ahadees and practising as such is against learning being farida on all. And rasool Allah saws did not say that I leave among u quran, ahlebaythi itrati and qualified fuqaha. Or did he?

For 300 years u follow quran and ahlebayth then stop reading quran and ahadees for practise and adhere to any of the qualified fuqaha for 1000 plus years.

U couldn't reach the gist of what rasool Allah saws said

Why dont you admit that your translation was wrong.

The hadith did not have the word "group" and your therefore your understanding of the hadith was flawed. This proves that laymen like you should consult qualified scholars in hadith and not try to self interpret hadith or take hadith sciences lightly.

It was the official translation by an usooli alim. Not mine

Edited by siraatoaliyinhaqqun

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Everybody don't learn ahadees and practising as such is against learning being farida on all. And rasool Allah saws did not say that I leave among u quran, ahlebaythi itrati and qualified fuqaha. Or did he?

For 300 years u follow quran and ahlebayth then stop reading quran and ahadees for practise and adhere to any of the qualified fuqaha for 1000 plus years.

U couldn't reach the gist of what rasool Allah saws said

It was the official translation by an usooli alim. Not mine

(bismillah)

(salam)

bro siraat kindly tell me that you are a serious person

your posts say otherwise

more robotic, more agenda/position centric.

that is one of the reasons i did not follow up on your post last night with regards to eid

(wasalam)

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Everybody don't learn ahadees and practising as such is against learning being farida on all. And rasool Allah saws did not say that I leave among u quran, ahlebaythi itrati and qualified fuqaha. Or did he?

Prophet (S) said Quran and Ahlul Bait عليه السلام.......and Ahlul Bait (A) said follow qualified fuqha.

For 300 years u follow quran and ahlebayth then stop reading quran and ahadees for practise and adhere to any of the qualified fuqaha for 1000 plus years.

U couldn't reach the gist of what rasool Allah saws said

Iblis worshiped Allah, but when Alah said prostrate in front of Adam Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã, he refused.

Sunnis follow Rasool Allah (S) but when Rasool Allah (S) said follow Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã, they refused.

pseudo-Akhbaris followed Ahlul Bait (A) but when Ahlul Bait (A) said follow our fuqha, they refused.

We follow full religion and not selective religion. We follow Quran, Ahlul Bait (A) and pious qualified scholars. And Alhamdulillah we are proud of it.

It was the official translation by an usooli alim. Not mine

^^ read before you post.

.

Edited by Orion

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Prophet (S) said Quran and Ahlul Bait عليه السلام.......and Ahlul Bait (A) said follow qualified fuqha.

Iblis worshiped Allah, but when Alah said prostrate in front of Adam عليه السلام, he refused.

Sunnis follow Rasool Allah (S) but when Rasool Allah (S) said follow Ali عليه السلام, they refused.

pseudo-Akhbaris followed Ahlul Bait (A) but when Ahlul Bait (A) said follow our fuqha, they refused.

We follow full religion and not selective religion. We follow Quran, Ahlul Bait (A) and pious qualified scholars. And Alhamdulillah we are proud of it.

^^ read before you post.

.

we follow narrators of ahadees too but we don't take other than ahadees like qiyas(which u wish to call aql or ijtehaad and ijma.

Awl is just an instrument in understanding law for us not to make law.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

we follow narrators of ahadees too but we don't take other than ahadees like qiyas(which u wish to call aql or ijtehaad and ijma.

Awl is just an instrument in understanding law for us not to make law.

bro, qiyas like the quote below

How is moon the case of jurispudential difference ? the one that agrees with zulm against ahlulbayth a s cannot celebrate the eid on the right day?

Youm al eid for momineen has to be different from youm al eid of zalimeen; that has been decreed by Allah azwj

You did not even reply to my post in a v/s q thread. You invited me and left it for others to reply and they only said what they wanted to say not what I asked for.

And the hujja in the hadees as u said is because of independent use of ijtegad and ijma as source of law?

Hujja are 14 a.s and their ahadees as an explanation for quran. Any other hadees against quran is not hujja

do you know where to draw this line between understanding and making

(wasalam)

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we follow narrators of ahadees too

Which narrator of hadith do you follow? And what hadith have they narrated. I am not talking about "hadith books", I am talking about real narrators of hadith from this era.

but we don't take other than ahadees like qiyas(which u wish to call aql or ijtehaad and ijma.

Statements like above expose the weakness of your beliefs. You still cant even differentiate b/w qiyas and aql.

Awl is just an instrument in understanding law for us not to make law.

^^ this also I have told you that Mujtahids understand laws, find laws and explain them to us. They dont have the power to make law. Only Allah can make law.

Seriously, it feels like no matter how many times we explain our beliefs, you will continue to act like a parrot and keep repeating the same rhetoric. So what is the use of such discussions.

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And the hujja in the hadees as u said is because of independent use of ijtegad and ijma as source of law?

Salam.

Brother Can you give some examples for the above claim of yours?

I have heard many making the same claim, but have not seen any proof as such. I suppose I must have missed it but can you give some proof for your claims?

Inshallah that will help in moving this discussion in the right direction.

To Prove that its the other way round i.e. "In Ijtehad only Quran and Hadees are the primary sources and Aql and Ijma are not independent sources" see the attached scan pages from the Tauzi of Ayatullah Muhammad Shirazi..

Wassalam

post-2739-0-29758000-1315987125_thumb.jp

post-2739-0-41544900-1315987141_thumb.jp

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To Prove that its the other way round i.e. "In Ijtehad only Quran and Hadees are the primary sources and Aql and Ijma are not independent sources" see the attached scan pages from the Tauzi of Ayatullah Muhammad Shirazi..

Brother Muhibb,

Thanks for the scaned pages.

Note that these people are not here to learn or discuss. They have some "talking points" and they will keep repeating them like a parrot. Even if you bring down the sun and the moon and place it on their hands they will still not accept the truth. They will continue to misguide people with their imaginary accusations.

Their behavior is somewhat similar to that of the Wahabis who come on shiachat and accuse Shia of committing shirk in the form of wasila and practicing zina in the form of mutah. No matter how much evidence you provide or explanation you give they dont accept the truth.

Anyway, keep trying. They might not listen but other readers of this thread could.

WS

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Salam.

Brother Can you give some examples for the above claim of yours?

I have heard many making the same claim, but have not seen any proof as such. I suppose I must have missed it but can you give some proof for your claims?

Inshallah that will help in moving this discussion in the right direction.

To Prove that its the other way round i.e. "In Ijtehad only Quran and Hadees are the primary sources and Aql and Ijma are not independent sources" see the attached scan pages from the Tauzi of Ayatullah Muhammad Shirazi..

Wassalam

Show me how is chess halal through quran and ahadees.

Show me how artificial insemination of a non mahram halal and what is the status of the child born.

These are just two examples. Did u check the question to akhbaris thread where the ulema were wearing white socks?

Theoritically many proofs can be given but theory has to be supported by quran and ahadees. And the practical result is what is considered at the end.

(bismillah)

(salam)

bro, qiyas like the quote below

do you know where to draw this line between understanding and making

(wasalam)

Yes, I draw a line and stop where I can't find a hadees. And what all I said about eidain is truth based on ahadees andquran.

Bro muhibb I am on phone. Give me some time to reply regardingfurther proofs for ijma nd SQL as independent source of law

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Yes, I draw a line and stop where I can't find a hadees. And what all I said about eidain is truth based on ahadees andquran.

Bro muhibb I am on phone. Give me some time to reply regardingfurther proofs for ijma nd SQL as independent source of law

(bismillah)

(salam)

this i is a very dangerous thing.

so tell me bro how can you be certain that pasting one hadeeth in the other is not qiyas .

the imam(as) clearly explained that substituting one ahkam in another without understanding is qiyas

you know the salah and fasting example.

on another note do you deny a khabar even it be wahid

(wasalam)

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(bismillah)

(salam)

this i is a very dangerous thing.

so tell me bro how can you be certain that pasting one hadeeth in the other is not qiyas .

the imam(as) clearly explained that substituting one ahkam in another without understanding is qiyas

you know the salah and fasting example.

on another note do you deny a khabar even it be wahid

(wasalam)

What? Are we talking about the same thing. Can u cite an example of where I derived one Hukm with another

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