Two Contradictory Hadees?!

[diracdeltafunc]

(bismillah)

Salam alaikum, Ya Ali madad.

So i found the following ahadees on Nawroz :

5– Imam al-Sadiq (as) said to Mu`aalli b. Khunays when he came to visit him for Nayruz, ‘Do you know what this day is’ to which he replied, ‘May I be your ransom, this is a day to which the Persians attach great importance and in which they give each other gifts.’ So Imam al-Sadiq (as) said, ‘By the Ancient House in Makkah! That is only because of a much older reason which I will explain to you so that you may understand … O Mu`aalli, verily the day of Nayruz is the day when Allah took the servants’ covenants from them that they would worship Him and that they would not associate anything with Him, and that they would believe in His prophets and His divine proofs, and that they would believe in the Imams (as). This is also the day when the sun rose for the first time … Every day of Nayruz is a day when we await joy for verily it is one of our special days and one of the days of our shi`aa. The Persians have kept its significance whereas you have lost it … This is the first day of the Persians’ new year, and they have managed to stay alive since having been only thirty thousand in number. The pouring of water on the day of Nayruz has become a practice…’[bihar al-Anwar, v. 59, p. 92, no. 1]

However on the other hand :

It is narrated in Bihar al-Anwar ‘It has been related that Mansur [Dawaniqi][ One of the Abbasid Caliphs (ed.)] ordered Imam Musa al-Kazim (as) to sit with him to receive gifts and greetings for the day of Nayruz, so that he may take the gifts presented to him, so Imam replied, ‘Verily I have examined the traditions from my grandfather the Prophet (SAWA) and have not found a single tradition about this festival. Rather it is a practice of the Persians which Islam eradicated, and God forbid that we should revive what Islam has eradicated.’ So Mansur said, ‘We only celebrate it as a matter of policy for our army[it is possible that his army consisted of Persians whose favour and allegiance he wished to secure by his observance of their festival (ed.)], so I request you by Allah the Great to sit down’ , so he sat down …’ [bihar al-Anwar, v. 59, p. 100, no. 2 and v. 48, p. 108, no. 9]

Source : http://darolhadith.n...&vid=225&scid=6

Similarly :

The Prophet (SAWA) said, ‘Poverty is almost infidelity.’[al-Kafi, v. 2, p. 307, no. 4]

The Prophet (SAWA) said, ‘O Allah I seek refuge in You from infidelity and poverty.’ A person asked, ‘Are these two equivalent?’ He said, ‘Yes.’[Kanz al-`Ummal, no. 16687]

The Prophet (SAWA) said, ‘Poverty is blackness of the face in the two worlds.’[`Aaw`ali al-La’ali, v. 1, p. 40, no. 41]

However on the otherhand :

The Prophet (SAWA) said, ‘Poverty is my honour, and I am proud of it.’[bihar al-Anwar, v. 72, p. 55, no. 85]

The Prophet (SAWA) said, ‘The poor are the friends of Allah.’[al-Firdaws, v. 3, p. 157, no. 4423]

Imam Ali (as) said, ‘Poverty is more decorative for a believer than a beauty spot on the cheek of a horse.’[al-Kafi, v. 2, p. 265, no. 22]

Perhaps the knowleldgeable brothers and sisters can help us out here.

Thanks.

Edited September 2, 2011 by diracdeltafunc

[guest 34193]

wa `alaykum as-salaam,

As to the ones on Nawruz, neither of these have solid isnads. But as to the first, it has some other problems with the text itself. See the full text of it here in three variants (all three are narrated on the authority of Mu`alla b. Khunays, so it may just be versions or portions of the same text):

http://www.tashayyu....-prayers/nauruz

For instance, one says that yaum al-ghadir was on nawruz. Indeed it was close, but it doesn't appear to have been on that same day. But then another says that it was the day that the idols in Mecca were cleared, but the conquest of Mecca happened apparently in January. One of them also says it was the day of the triumph at Nahrawan but that would have been around July.

[Muhammed Ali]

wa `alaykum as-salaam,

As to the ones on Nawruz, neither of these have solid isnads. But as to the first, it has some other problems with the text itself. See the full text of it here in three variants (all three are narrated on the authority of Mu`alla b. Khunays, so it may just be versions or portions of the same text):

http://www.tashayyu....-prayers/nauruz

For instance, one says that yaum al-ghadir was on nawruz. Indeed it was close, but it doesn't appear to have been on that same day. But then another says that it was the day that the idols in Mecca were cleared, but the conquest of Mecca happened apparently in January. One of them also says it was the day of the triumph at Nahrawan but that would have been around July.

I have seen one being quoted with both the conquest of Makkah and Ghadeer in the same text. Did they combine more than one hadith or does this version exist?

[diracdeltafunc]

wa `alaykum as-salaam,

As to the ones on Nawruz, neither of these have solid isnads. But as to the first, it has some other problems with the text itself. See the full text of it here in three variants (all three are narrated on the authority of Mu`alla b. Khunays, so it may just be versions or portions of the same text):

http://www.tashayyu....-prayers/nauruz

For instance, one says that yaum al-ghadir was on nawruz. Indeed it was close, but it doesn't appear to have been on that same day. But then another says that it was the day that the idols in Mecca were cleared, but the conquest of Mecca happened apparently in January. One of them also says it was the day of the triumph at Nahrawan but that would have been around July.

Jazakallah khair for replying bro. I understand about the nawroz but if you read the poverty ones, they completely oppose each other. Obviously the latter make more sense as the Prophet pbuh and his family were "generous, sons of the generous ones". Yet we find ahadees that seem to collide into each other head on.

Does it mean that the website is posting weak ahadees?

Thanks.

Edited September 2, 2011 by diracdeltafunc

[Nader Zaveri]

(salam)

(bismillah)

However on the other hand :

Source : http://darolhadith.n...&vid=225&scid=6

The hadeeth about Nawrooz being a Majoosi holiday is taken from Ibn Shahr Ashoob's book al-Manaaqib Aali Abee Taalib, vol. 4, pg. 318 - 319.

I did some research on this issue and how every pro-nawroos hadeeth we have is through Mu`alla bin Khunays, who is a controversial narrator in himself. Also, Mu`alla bin Khunays is said to be al-Koofee, from al-Koofa. Aboo Haneefah who was also from Koofa has positive view of this holiday, so I find that very interesting. Not to mention Aboo Haneefah had Persian background.

Does it mean that the website is posting weak ahadees?

I wouldn't be so surprised, majority if not all Shee`ah websites post weak aHaadeeth, without checking the authenticity.

(salam)

Edited September 2, 2011 by Nader Zaveri

[بعيد]

I don't know about the first two hadiths about the persian celebration, but the 3rd and 4th hadiths are simple.

The 3rd hadith speaks of poverty through greed and depriving yourself of spiritual value whilst the 4th speaks of actual poverty, having little to no income, etc.

[Çåá ÇáÈíÊ]

This is why Islam isn't totally complete. We can't even decide on the authenticity of narrations. I have no idea what God meant when He said "this day I have completed your religion" - sure, it was completed with Imam Ali (as) , but what we "know" comes from narrations. So it doesn't make sense.

[diracdeltafunc]

(salam)

(bismillah)

The hadeeth about Nawrooz being a Majoosi holiday is taken from Ibn Shahr Ashoob's book al-Manaaqib Aali Abee Taalib, vol. 4, pg. 318 - 319.

I did some research on this issue and how every pro-nawroos hadeeth we have is through Mu`alla bin Khunays, who is a controversial narrator in himself. Also, Mu`alla bin Khunays is said to be al-Koofee, from al-Koofa. Aboo Haneefah who was also from Koofa has positive view of this holiday, so I find that very interesting. Not to mention Aboo Haneefah had Persian background.

(wasalam)

Could you kindly answer whether if celebrating nawroz as a happy day allowed or not?

I wouldn't be so surprised, majority if not all Shee`ah websites post weak aHaadeeth, without checking the authenticity.

(salam)

Thats a shame realy! I felt that when i downloaded kafi from here :

http://www.chiite.fr/livres/Al-Kafi.pdf

With the only problem being is that i dont know the authenticity of the ahadees. How do you check?

Thanks.

[Nader Zaveri]

Could you kindly answer whether if celebrating nawroz as a happy day allowed or not?

Thats a shame realy! I felt that when i downloaded kafi from here :

http://www.chiite.fr/livres/Al-Kafi.pdf

With the only problem being is that i dont know the authenticity of the ahadees. How do you check?

Thanks.

I honestly do not like to give opinions in general. So I have no opinion about this holiday. I am just a little skeptical about how Islamic this holiday really is.

With regards to al-Kaafi. Each hadeeth has to go through the process of 'ilm al-hadeeth and 'ilm al-rijaal. If you have any questions regarding the authenticity of any hadeeth shoot me a PM or make a topic and we can go through the authenticity of that hadeeth together.

(wasalam)

[aladdin]

For instance, one says that yaum al-ghadir was on nawruz. Indeed it was close, but it doesn't appear to have been on that same day. But then another says that it was the day that the idols in Mecca were cleared, but the conquest of Mecca happened apparently in January. One of them also says it was the day of the triumph at Nahrawan but that would have been around July.

First of all, I am an Arab and I have nothing to do with Nawruz "New Day and/or New Year".

The above could be explained that Muslims months are purely based on Lunar cycles, however the Christians months are based on Solar cycles. Even, though the Christianity in its originality was based on Lunar cycles. Based on Lunar cycle, the night is first and then the day, thus the Christmas Eve.

Another one is "Good Friday", which should be purely based on Lunar cycle, thus the Christian's always adjust the "Good Friday" based on Lunar cycle into the Solar cycle. Therefore, they make sure that it always falls in the Spring Season. Where as, for example the Islamic month of Muharram falls in all four Seasons. Therefore, one cannot equate, the way you are trying to equate.

[aladdin]

Thats a shame realy! I felt that when i downloaded kafi from here :

http://www.chiite.fr...res/Al-Kafi.pdf

With the only problem being is that i dont know the authenticity of the ahadees. How do you check?

With regards to al-Kaafi. Each hadeeth has to go through the process of 'ilm al-hadeeth and 'ilm al-rijaal. If you have any questions regarding the authenticity of any hadeeth shoot me a PM or make a topic and we can go through the authenticity of that hadeeth together.

Salam brother diracdeltafunc,

It is not a shame, in fact this the strength of the Shia religion. I will explain why?

Also, I will be vary to PM anything to the Online Marja, the Alim of ShiaChat, who qualifications are unknown and who is not even certified.

The Sunni and Shia took a different approach and the approach taken is in the name of the books.

Sahih Buhkari, means the "Authenticated (Sahih)" hadiths. When repetition are removed, we are left with about 4,000 hadiths. Mr. Bukhari played god here, instead of collecting knowledge he sat down to make judgment on the knowledge. Mr. Bukhari the god decides what is the real Sunnah or not.

Kitab al-Kafi, means "The Complete Book". Kulayni collected as many hadiths as he could. He collected about 16,000 hadiths, four times more than Sahih Bukhari. His intention was to collect all the knowledge without passing any judgement on this knowledge. His intention was, to let the ulema decide. Let each alim based on his knowledge and research decide which hadiths, in his own view are Sahih, Hasan, Da'if, Maudu' and so forth.

Alim, each one based on years of study and being certified as an alim, decides in his own view on the hadiths, in Kitab al-Kafi. He grades his own hadiths, as these hadiths are not graded in Kitab al-Kafi. He doesn't have to grade all the hadiths in Kitab al-Kafi, he only grades the ones he uses. Alim A, might grade one hadith as "Sahih" based on his knowledge and research, whereas Alim B, might grade the same hadith as "Da'if" base on based on his knowledge and research. Thus. two alims might differ within themselves as they are human being and not god like Mr. Bukhari.

Mr. Nader Zaveri the Online Marja, resident alim of ShiaChait is one of these alim who grades his own hadith based on his own knowledge and research. He is the Online Marja, resident alim of ShiaChat who gives fatwas based on his own grading, based on his knowledge and research. He is like Mr. Bukhari. He claims be a Shia Muslim. He has not presented his certificates about his knowledge, his certification, nor he is knowledgeable in Arabic language. Everyone on ShiaChat is in awe of Mr. Zaveri, and his grading is taken as Knowledge of Allah.

Mr. Nobody, another Online Marja, resident alim can do the same thing tomorrow on ShiaChat. Now we will have two Online Marjas, residents alims of ShiaChat. They might differ with each other. Next day, there might be someone else and now we will have clashes of Online Marjas, residents alims of ShiaChat. Anyone, Tom, Richard and Harry can give fatwas on ShiaChat, and it is not necessary to know if they have any knowledge, whether they are certified, know Arabic or not, but we are now all in awe of them.

So, once more I will be vary to PM anything to the Online Marja, the Alim of ShiaChat, who qualifications are unknown and who is not even certified.

Another weakness of Sunni is that any Tom, Richard and Harry can issue fatwas, whereas in our Shia religion, only the learned Alims after several years of studies and being certified can issue fatwas.

[guest 34193]

Kitab al-Kafi, means "The Complete Book". Kulayni collected as many hadiths as he could. He collected about 16,000 hadiths, four times more than Sahih Bukhari. His intention was to collect all the knowledge without passing any judgement on this knowledge. His intention was, to let the ulema decide. Let each alim based on his knowledge and research decide which hadiths, in his own view are Sahih, Hasan, Da'if, Maudu' and so forth.

For someone who condemns other's Arabic quite a bit and keeps repeating how you are an Arab yourself (as though that matters), I wonder at your own knowledge of the language. Kitab al-Kafi does not mean "The Complete Book", al-Kafi means the Sufficient. Nor was his intention in compiling what you are saying it was which would be clear if you read al-Kulayni's own introduction to the book, namely where he says:

وقلت: إنك تحب أن يكون عندك كتاب كاف يجمع [فيه] من جميع فنون علم الدين، ما يكتفي به المتعلم، ويرجع إليه المسترشد، ويأخذ منه من يريد علم الدين والعمل به بالآثار الصحيحة عن الصادقين

(عليهم السلام) والسنن القائمة التي عليها العمل، وبها يؤدي فرض الله عزوجل وسنة نبيه (صلى الله عليه وآله)

First of all, I am an Arab and I have nothing to do with Nawruz "New Day and/or New Year".

The above could be explained that Muslims months are purely based on Lunar cycles, however the Christians months are based on Solar cycles. Even, though the Christianity in its originality was based on Lunar cycles. Based on Lunar cycle, the night is first and then the day, thus the Christmas Eve.

Another one is "Good Friday", which should be purely based on Lunar cycle, thus the Christian's always adjust the "Good Friday" based on Lunar cycle into the Solar cycle. Therefore, they make sure that it always falls in the Spring Season. Where as, for example the Islamic month of Muharram falls in all four Seasons. Therefore, one cannot equate, the way you are trying to equate.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here...

[aladdin]

For someone who condemns other's Arabic quite a bit and keeps repeating how you are an Arab yourself (as though that matters), I wonder at your own knowledge of the language. Kitab al-Kafi does not mean "The Complete Book", al-Kafi means the Sufficient.

Salam brother,

Aren't you nitpicking here. Sufficient and/or Complete Book means the same thing. Words in higher languages have lots of meanings.

[guest 34193]

Salam brother,

Aren't you nitpicking here. Sufficient and/or Complete Book means the same thing. Words in higher languages have lots of meanings.

Salaam,

No, it isn't nitpicking because saying something is complete and saying it is sufficient are not the same thing (one is saying it contains everything the other saying it contains enough). And again if you read his own introduction to the work he's mentioning the idea behind it was to collect a book which would sufficiently contain what you need to know of the religion using sahih traditions from the Imams (as) and established sunna. Clearly he wasn't just collecting whatever he could find regardless of whether he believed it authentic or not, but he was selecting from the traditions what he considered to be correct and valid to act upon. Plus as large as al-Kafi is, there is much that he did not include within it that would almost certainly have been available to him.

[aladdin]

Salaam,

No, it isn't nitpicking because saying something is complete and saying it is sufficient are not the same thing (one is saying it contains everything the other saying it contains enough). And again if you read his own introduction to the work he's mentioning the idea behind it was to collect a book which would sufficiently contain what you need to know of the religion using sahih traditions from the Imams (as) and established sunna. Clearly he wasn't just collecting whatever he could find regardless of whether he believed it authentic or not, but he was selecting from the traditions what he considered to be correct and valid to act upon. Plus as large as al-Kafi is, there is much that he did not include within it that would almost certainly have been available to him.

Salam brother,

I have seen you classify hadiths like Mr. Zaveri. Now, in your own opinion, how many hadiths out of 16,000 in Kitab al-Kafi you consider to be:

1. Sahih?

2. Hasan?

3. Da'if?

4. Maudu'?

Now, due to my lack of knowledge how hadiths are classified, I might have not listed all the classifications above.

Just a guesstimate will be sufficient.

[mahdi usman]

how is it possible that a book written at the time of minor occultation of ur 12th imam can not be perfect 100%.that was the time when ur 12th imam was avaialble through saffirs for guidance.did author of al-kafi not get all their hadiths checked by his infallible 12th imam for authenticity.?

[aladdin]

how is it possible that a book written at the time of minor occultation of ur 12th imam can not be perfect 100%.that was the time when ur 12th imam was avaialble through saffirs for guidance.did author of al-kafi not get all their hadiths checked by his infallible 12th imam for authenticity.?

Just like the Holy Quran has seven meanings, the hadiths themselves have more than one meaning too. Only the "Learned Ones" know all the meanings.

Doesn't mean that we don't understand the hadith with our limited knowledge and capacity, the hadith is not Sahih, or the hadith is not Sahih because it contains some problem in the sanad (ilum al-rijal).

[mahdi usman]

allama baqir majlisi declared 58% of hadiths in al-kafi to be unreliable.when there is difference of 600 years between death of the author of al kafi and birth of baqir majlisi.

[aladdin]

allama baqir majlisi declared 58% of hadiths in al-kafi to be unreliable.when there is difference of 600 years between death of the author of al kafi and birth of baqir majlisi.

Alim, each one based on years of study and being certified as an alim, decides in his own view on the hadiths, in Kitab al-Kafi. He grades his own hadiths, as these hadiths are not graded in Kitab al-Kafi. He doesn't have to grade all the hadiths in Kitab al-Kafi, he only grades the ones he uses. Alim A, might grade one hadith as "Sahih" based on his knowledge and research, whereas Alim B, might grade the same hadith as "Da'if" base on based on his knowledge and research. Thus. two alims might differ within themselves as they are human being and not god like Mr. Bukhari.

[aladdin]

Here are some quotes from Wikipedia, which I don't consider a good site to quote, but it is not very far from truth:

http://en.wikipedia....i/Kitab_al-Kafi

Authenticity:

Kulaynis aim of Kitab Al-Kafi was to collect as many hadith as possible pertaining to the Shia school of thought. Narrations were not cross referenced or checked for authenticity but rather collected extensively to collate as many narrations as possible for future reference.

Mulla Baqir Majlisi stating in his commentary on al-Kafi, named Mir’at al-’Uqul, that 58% of narrations in al-Kafi are unreliable.

Of the basic traditions, 5,072 are considered sahih (sound); 144 are regarded as hasan (good), second category; 1,118 are held to be muwaththaq (trustworthy), third category; 302 are adjudged to be qawi‘ (strong).

Scholarly Remarks:

The author (Muhammad ibn Ya'qub al-Kulayni) stated in his Preface of Al-Kafi:

“…You wanted to have a book which would be sufficient (for your religious needs) (kafin), which would include all kinds of knowledge (’ilm) of religion, which would be adequate for the student, and to which the teacher might refer. Thus it could be used by anyone who wanted knowledge of religion and of legal practice (’amal) according to only sound traditions (athar) from the truthful ones (the Imams)…Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most Gracious, has made the compilation of the book that you had wished for possible. I hope it will prove to be up to your expectations”

The famous Shi‘ah scholar Shaykh Saduq didn't believe in the complete authenticity of al-Kafi. Khoei points this out in his "Mu‘jam Rijal al-Hadith", or "Collection of Men of Narrations", in which he states:

"Shaykh as-Saduq did not regard all of the traditions in al-Kafi to be Sahih (truthful)."

The scholars have made these remarks, to remind the people that one cannot simply pick the book up, and take whatever they like from it as truthful. Rather, an exhaustive process of authentication must be applied, which leaves the understanding of the book in the hands of the learned.

Khoei's opinion was not unique; practically all Shia scholars are adamant that al-Kafi is not 100% authentic, but that it is the best primary hadith book currently available . Shia Muslims do not make any assumptions about the authenticity of a hadith book; Shias believe that there are no "sahih" hadith books that are completely reliable. Hadith books are compiled by fallible people, and thus realistically, they inevitably have a mixture of strong and weak hadiths.

Kulayni himself stated in his preface that he only collected hadiths he thought were important and sufficient for Muslims to know (at a time when many Muslims were illiterate and ignorant of the true beliefs of Islam, and heretical Sufi and gnostic sects were gaining popularity), and he left the verification of these hadiths up to later scholars. Kulayni also states, in reference to hadiths: "whatever (hadith) agrees with the Book of God (the Qur'an), accept it. And whatever contradicts it, reject it"

The author of al-Kafi never intended for it to be politicized as "infallible", he only compiled it to give sincere advice based on authentic Islamic law (regardless of the soundess of any one particular hadith), and to preserve rare hadiths and religious knowledge in an easily accessible collection for future generations to study.

[mahdi usman]

brother,at the time of bukhari there was no divine source was available .the sahi ahadith in bukhari means that just their chain of narration is complete.

[Basim Ali]

(salam),

The poverty ahadith have to be read in context. They don't really contradict each other then.

Al-Kafi, Vol. 2

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from ibn Mahbub fromDawud al-Riqqiy from ‘Ubayda al-Hadhdha’ from Abu Ja’far (a) who has said the following:

“The Messenger of Allah has said that Allah, the Most Majestic,the Most Holy, has said, ‘Among My believing servants there are those whose religious lives can only be at their best with wealth, comfort and good health. I try them by means of wealth, comfort and good health and this makes their religious affairs to be in the best condition. Also among My believing servantsthere are those whose religious lives are only at their best with poverty, destitution and ailing health. I try them by means of poverty, destitution and ailing health and this helps their religious lives to be in the best condition.

I know what is good for the religious matters of my believing servants. Among My believing servants there are those who strive to worship Me. They wake up from sleep leaving their comfortable pillow for Tahajjud (special prayer at night). They experience fatigue and I allow slumber to overcome them on one or two nights, a trial from Me to see if he continues; he goes to sleep and wakes up upset and angry over his own self.

If I allow him to do the way he wants to worship, he may develop a sense of conceit (unwanted pride) that can lead him to mischief in his deeds. This may bring about his destruction. It can so happen due to hishappiness with whatever his soul desires. He may begin to feel as if he has excelled all worshippers and has surpassed the limits of defective worship. In so doing he moves away from Me even though he thinks that he is getting closer to Me.

Therefore, they must not rely on their good deeds that they do to receive rewards from Me. Even if they strive hard, tire themselves and finish their lives worshipping Me they fall short, in worshipping Me truly, in their quest for My generous rewards, My bounties in paradise and high positions near Me. They must only trust in My mercy, be happy with My generosity and always be hopeful about Me. In such cases My mercy will reach them as well as my approval and forgiveness and my pardon will provide them cover; I am Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful, and thus I have taken such names.’”

Also, it is possible that the poverty related to kufr which is mentioned in ahadith, is not poverty of money because we have an entire chapter in al-Kafi which has ahadith which speak of the virtue of being destitute.

Furthermore, Kanz al-Aa'maal is a Sunni book by Muttaqi al Hindi.

A number of our people have narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from Ali ibn Asbat from those he has mentioned (in his book) from abu ‘Abd Allah (a) who has said the following:

“Abu ‘Abd Allah (a) has said, ‘Poverty is a painful death.’ I (the narrator) then asked him, ‘Is it poverty due to deficiency of Dirham and Dinar (units of money)?’ The Imam said, ‘No, in fact, it is poverty due to deficiency in religion.’” (Da'eef ala Mash'hoor)

wa (salam)