Polygamy Scenario

[Ruq]

Is polygamy really a principle practical for all people of all times? Consider this scenario:

A disease or virus is affecting the female population, the number of men now vastly out strips the number of woman. There are a number of wealthy men in this society who wish to have many wives. They have 4 permanant wives and an unlimited number of muta wives thus creating a virtual hareem for themselves (if you dont agree that muta wives are counted outside the 4 then just increase the number of wealthy men and/ decrease the number of available females) The poorer men cannot compete in terms of material security so women are choosing to go to these wealthy men. This leaves many poorer men with no one to marry.

Is there any Quran or ahadith that could stop this situation from happening?

[Ruq]

well, bump

[alimohamad40]

The one who sanctioned it is more aware of the current and future statistics related to it and the situation you said is not our situation .

And studies showed that if polygyny is practised it will scew the gender ratio infavour of the females and many more factors.

So can wo work to asters the real problems and the real statistics rather than the hypothetical ones?

We are not telling men to increase their affairs because they are already doing a good Job in that but we are only telling people to stop fornication and use marriage instead of the affairs and stop the secret scandals

Now we have evidence that the prophet of Islam encouraged polygyny for the general public and with mo conditions such as you present

Most other prophets also practiced this and that initself is an evidence that under all religions it's encouraged because the prophets are the role models of emulation for all the religions.

The evidence you have got against the lifestyle of our prophets are baseless and derived from very clear selfish motives .

Do you expect us to follow your desire over trying to emilate the lifestyles of the pure prophets?

The problem is when you worship your gender or your race or your colour or yourself then there is no way you can concile with Islamic codes because they are sanctioned for everyone and not only for one gender or one race or one colour.

Majority of the prophets married multiple wives so what's ur opinion about that? Do you hate their lifestyle which we are told to emulate or do you justify for them thier "immoral" action using the good old argument of " laws changed with time"

You've got bad news because the basic laws like the marriage system do not change and if they are changed then god must give us the evidence of their change otherwise it's not justice.

[ImAli]

alimohammed40 I think what she is asking is......if there is ever a gender imbalance and there are many many more men than women and all of the women are taken what will they do? Such is the situation in china because of female infanticide and there are many predicting that a vast amount of young men will not be able to find a wife. A bunch of young men without women spells nothing but trouble.

The Chinese Academy of Social Science estimates that by 2020, 24 million Chinese men will be unable to find a wife in their own country

http://www.worldpress.org/Asia/3676.cfm

Edited September 2, 2011 by ImAli

[Ya Aba 3abdillah]

There will be war.

Men will practice haram acts.

The war between men will produce female captives that will be traded as commodities.

It'll be the survival of the fittest.

The war will end up killing many men, returning the world to a gender balance.

It's a natural process.

If the opposite were to occur (lot more women),

There won't be war, but there will be a lot more cat fights.

Women will flirt a lot more.

alimohamad40 will think he's in heaven

[14infallibles]

lol at above post

and lol @ how sister ImAli always has demographics up her sleeve

[Ruq]

The one who sanctioned it is more aware of the current and future statistics related to it and the situation you said is not our situation .

And studies showed that if polygyny is practised it will scew the gender ratio infavour of the females and many more factors.

So can wo work to asters the real problems and the real statistics rather than the hypothetical ones?

We are not telling men to increase their affairs because they are already doing a good Job in that but we are only telling people to stop fornication and use marriage instead of the affairs and stop the secret scandals

Now we have evidence that the prophet of Islam encouraged polygyny for the general public and with mo conditions such as you present

Most other prophets also practiced this and that initself is an evidence that under all religions it's encouraged because the prophets are the role models of emulation for all the religions.

The evidence you have got against the lifestyle of our prophets are baseless and derived from very clear selfish motives .

Do you expect us to follow your desire over trying to emilate the lifestyles of the pure prophets?

The problem is when you worship your gender or your race or your colour or yourself then there is no way you can concile with Islamic codes because they are sanctioned for everyone and not only for one gender or one race or one colour.

Majority of the prophets married multiple wives so what's ur opinion about that? Do you hate their lifestyle which we are told to emulate or do you justify for them thier "immoral" action using the good old argument of " laws changed with time"

You've got bad news because the basic laws like the marriage system do not change and if they are changed then god must give us the evidence of their change otherwise it's not justice.

Well, all of that seemed totally irrelevant. Why are you assuming all these things that i havent said? the only thing i have expressed concern/objection to with regarding polygamy is the idea that you can have a secret wife. My intention of this thread is to ask a (genuine) question with regards to this hypothetical and possible scenario. Are there any principles in Quran or ahadith that are in place to stop such a thing happening?

[ImAli]

lol at above post

and lol @ how sister ImAli always has demographics up her sleeve

Lock up your women (wives, daughters, sisters).........a crazed Chinese guy is coming :shaytan:

[Ruq]

There will be war.

Men will practice haram acts.

The war between men will produce female captives that will be traded as commodities.

It'll be the survival of the fittest.

The war will end up killing many men, returning the world to a gender balance.

It's a natural process.

If the opposite were to occur (lot more women),

There won't be war, but there will be a lot more cat fights.

Women will flirt a lot more.

alimohamad40 will think he's in heaven

( :lol: )

Is there no principle or ruling where the wealthy men would be required to not do polygamy in that situation order that there are enough women for more to be able to have wives?

[Maryaam]

alimohammed40 I think what she is asking is......if there is ever a gender imbalance and there are many many more men than women and all of the women are taken what will they do? Such is the situation in china because of female infanticide and there are many predicting that a vast amount of young men will not be able to find a wife. A bunch of young men without women spells nothing but trouble.

The Chinese Academy of Social Science estimates that by 2020, 24 million Chinese men will be unable to find a wife in their own country

http://www.worldpres...g/Asia/3676.cfm

and men without chance of having wives leads to a very aggressive society. Interesting problem in both China and India. In India the women are being traded like commodities and shared between brothers etc. Have read about it. Not healthy.

[Ya Aba 3abdillah]

Lock up your women (wives, daughters, sisters).........a crazed Chinese guy is coming :shaytan:

Have actually been following the Chinese issue quite closely over the past few years. The problem with the one child policy was parents were getting scans done to reveal if they were having a female or male child. If it was female they'd abort it as they're socially viewed as incapable to contributing to the family's wealth and are therefor a burden. The chinese are pretty pro-active socially, politically and economically. So they banned the practice of pre-determine child gender prior to birth, but due to corruption it only had a limited effect.

So they introduced a new law stating if your first child is female, you are permitted to have a second child. This fixed the gender imbalance issue. The also ran a rigorous campaign in changing public perception that females aren't capable of contributing wealth to families, and targeted the large city centers where women are encourage to seek education and commit to professional careers.

[Maryaam]

Lock up your women (wives, daughters, sisters).........a crazed Chinese guy is coming :shaytan:

Hmm... dont laugh - they are on the hunt..

China's Gender Imbalance

Originally designated a temporary measure, China's National Population and Family Planning Commission has announced that it will continue its one-child policy through 2015....

.... The imbalance has accelerated steadily since ultrasound became widely available in the 1980s, and selective abortion of girls, while illegal in China, has became commonplace....

.....The result of such draconian family planning has resulted in demographic impacts beyond population-size control. China now has 32 million more males than females under the age of 20. (To put it into perspective, 32 million is roughly the population of Uganda.)

The gender imbalance is now manifested most clearly among those of marrying age, and the scarcity of women will have a more profound impact on population growth than any government fine. There is even an increasingly high risk group of single Chinese men referred to as "bare branches" because they will never father children and establish family trees of their own....

..... The one-child policy has created many more problems than just single Chinese men. The pressure to have a son has created a lucrative male child trade, often targeting the sons of migrant workers. Close to 70,000 children are snatched and sold every year to childless couples who turn to criminal gangs to supply the treasured male heir, while the girls are trafficked to become prostitutes or brides in rural areas.

The kidnapping of young girls is an all-too-common phenomenon. Women from surrounding countries are increasingly kidnapped and brought to China as a black-market solution to ensure that men have the women they need.

...Other possible consequences of the large numbers of single Chinese men include damage to the well-being of men who fail to marry; the prevalence of prostitution and sexually transmitted diseases; and social instability. What the future will hold is unsure, but what is certain is that China's one-child policy will have consequential repercussions on Chinese society and politics for decades to come.

http://www.worldpress.org/Asia/3676.cfm

[kadhim]

Hmm... dont laugh - they are on the hunt..

China's Gender Imbalance

Originally designated a temporary measure, China's National Population and Family Planning Commission has announced that it will continue its one-child policy through 2015....

.... The imbalance has accelerated steadily since ultrasound became widely available in the 1980s, and selective abortion of girls, while illegal in China, has became commonplace....

.....The result of such draconian family planning has resulted in demographic impacts beyond population-size control. China now has 32 million more males than females under the age of 20. (To put it into perspective, 32 million is roughly the population of Uganda.)

The gender imbalance is now manifested most clearly among those of marrying age, and the scarcity of women will have a more profound impact on population growth than any government fine. There is even an increasingly high risk group of single Chinese men referred to as "bare branches" because they will never father children and establish family trees of their own....

..... The one-child policy has created many more problems than just single Chinese men. The pressure to have a son has created a lucrative male child trade, often targeting the sons of migrant workers. Close to 70,000 children are snatched and sold every year to childless couples who turn to criminal gangs to supply the treasured male heir, while the girls are trafficked to become prostitutes or brides in rural areas.

The kidnapping of young girls is an all-too-common phenomenon. Women from surrounding countries are increasingly kidnapped and brought to China as a black-market solution to ensure that men have the women they need.

...Other possible consequences of the large numbers of single Chinese men include damage to the well-being of men who fail to marry; the prevalence of prostitution and sexually transmitted diseases; and social instability. What the future will hold is unsure, but what is certain is that China's one-child policy will have consequential repercussions on Chinese society and politics for decades to come.

http://www.worldpress.org/Asia/3676.cfm

Oh, not to worry. They've got that covered. That 30 million man army will be China's official collection agency if the US stops paying its debts.

Ha!

[Ya Aba 3abdillah]

China's not stupid, it doesn't turn a blind eye

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMhpr051833

"In rural areas, where approximately 70 percent of the people live, a second child is generally allowed after five years, but this provision sometimes applies only if the first child is a girl"

"The Future of the Policy" at the end of the journal article is worth a read, with the accompanied table.

[alimohamad40]

salaam

Ruqayah as you previously said some times when a group debates another group you start treating each member of a group based on stuff you heard from another member

sorry if I attributed things which are not your opinions

but if your scenario happens then islam teaches "Ithar"

Ithar is mustahab and it means to put the needs of other humans before your own...

for example when we get famine or draught we need to conserve and give food to the needy

The best example of this is the 5 of ahlulkisaa where they spend long time in hunger feeding the needy until the sourah of "al insaan" was revealed and promised them heaven.

in those circumstances celibacy becomes mustahab in order to help the harmony of the society and if we were living in such situation then our religious commands would have been very different and would not have encouraged polygyny.

Im Ali

Regarding the demography its not as simple as you think of it

we have studied this before but i will repeat briefly

god would not have made some thing mustahab (encouraged) if its not optimum for the society

when you look at gender ratio you look at many many factors

first you must not look at the ratio but you must look at the marriageable males to marriageable females ratio which is very different to the gender ratio.

males reach puberty a few years after the female and hence that will add millions to the marriageable female population

gays are subtracted ( :sick: ) and its a well known that practicing gays (who dont want females) are twice as much as practicing lesbians (who dont want males) .

this also adds more to the female population

you have the jails which i heard in the USA accounts for 3% of the population and god knows how many percent of the African American population.

subtract 3 percent of the whole population which is around 6 percent of the males and that will eliminate a huge population from the marriageable males

look at life expectancy and you will see that more men get killed or die early and hence an average of 5 years less in the life expectancy , this will also mean less males

if you want the reality you need to look around you in your community

also multiple marriage is not for everyone but it is needed to be existent in the society to serve its intended purpose.

The absence of it along with other problems has caused a huge chaos in the family system.

10s of cases of divorce due to scandals initiated by the mans desire for another female and 10s of married men who are secretly married around us afraid of the harm of the society...

God sanctioned something not for it to be ink on paper so it should be practiced in the society to serve its purpose and if you see that the society is absent of it and you have the ability then it becomes wajib on you to do it to set a model .

its well known in fiqh that nahi an almunkar is wajib kefaie you can refer to alkhooies risalah minhaj alsaleheen

many people jump around saying " if he has a wife why would he need another one ?? doesnt she satisfy him?"

the question is thrown back at them " if he doesnt need then why did god sanction it ? " or

" if its harmful for one of the parties then why did god sanction it?? does your god sanction harm and condone it? "

there are many cases where a man needs another wife and i witness this all the time

do you guys even watch TV? i haven't watched TV since 2003 or to be more accurate since before that but i hear everywhere on the news every now and then a hypocritical man has been busted for fornicating with another woman while married,,,

did you ever ask yourself why is this a phenomena if its not a need? why would they ruin their reputation and take such huge risks if its just a luxury and not a need? why is there such a huge demand for female prostitutes but not for male ones and would this be the case if there was no need?

the funniest of all of them was Clinton lying in-front of the whole world

prince charles

shane warn (the cricketer)

brad peter (the actor)

the new yourk mayor

that ugly show host jerry springer

David letterman

that black dude who plays gulf lol he was the funniest they put him in a medical treating him for addiction to sex lol people pay thousands of dollars to become potent and now they are saying its a disease to be potent lol

DR phil who preaches so much a buot monogomy apaprently is also accused but only god knows

imagine this is what has been busted and what stays secret is worse.

I don't know why these hypocrites instead of saying " look its our right to get married as it has always been the right of the great men throughout history such as the prophets" instead of defending their right and engage in legal marriages they put themselves in the ugliest humiliation and apologize to the constitution of the devil while trying to steal their natural god given right in the secret .

now i talked about the westerns but don't be surprised out community is infested with these stories where the stuffed up ones fornicate and the better ones secretly marry hiding as if they are committing a crime while Allah made it mustahab to announce and publicize and promote marriage !!!!

[ImAli]

Alimohammed40 it is still not making much sense to me. I could see where it would be possible for a limited number of people to practice polygamy but if everyone did this to avoid fornication it just wouldn't work. You speak of girls being ready to marry early....true but you could say a boy is ready to be married only 3 or 4 years later, not a large amount of time. Eventually marrying all of the girls off early will lead to a shortage for the men just reaching the age to be married.....then they will be going to prostitutes. Unfortunately prostitutes will never disappear, some women just lean to the wrong direction because of drug addiction, poverty, and abuse in childhood.....very slim chance a pious practicing muslim, christian, or jewish woman will turn into a prostitute. Then have you ever heard the saying you can't turn a Wh*r3 into a housewife....as horrible as it sounds there is wisdom behind it LOL. As for lesbians and gays, I have read conflicting studies to yours that the amount of lesbians and gays is about equal, and fat chance that either one of them will marry someone of the opposite gender when they are so encouraged to do indulge these days. Don't take this as a shot at you because it is not.....but people should certainly learn to control their urges because I married late, went to university, worked, and even traveled alone...........and I didn't give in to the advances of men. If I was able to stay away from fornication for so long why can't others?

[Ruq]

salaam

Ruqayah as you previously said some times when a group debates another group you start treating each member of a group based on stuff you heard from another member

sorry if I attributed things which are not your opinions

but if your scenario happens then islam teaches "Ithar"

Ithar is mustahab and it means to put the needs of other humans before your own...

for example when we get famine or draught we need to conserve and give food to the needy

The best example of this is the 5 of ahlulkisaa where they spend long time in hunger feeding the needy until the sourah of "al insaan" was revealed and promised them heaven.

in those circumstances celibacy becomes mustahab in order to help the harmony of the society and if we were living in such situation then our religious commands would have been very different and would not have encouraged polygyny.

'ithar', thats very interesting ty. So this is just a general principle of 'selflessness' that is encouraged? is there nothing wajib that would compel people in these circumstances to have to restore balance?

[alimohamad40]

'ithar', thats very interesting ty. So this is just a general principle of 'selflessness' that is encouraged? is there nothing wajib that would compel people in these circumstances to have to restore balance?

"ithar" is mustahab but "Infaq" is wajib

ithar is putting the other before yourself but infaq is just giving the others their rights which could be sharing your food with them or anything.

i think its common sense when you see a hungry then its wajib kefie to feed them when you have the ability

there are several hadeeths pointing to this direction:

one of them:

" the example of the faithfuls is like the example of one body if one organ is hurt the whole body stays awake for him sharing the pain"

"him who slept full and his neighbor is hungry and he has the knowledge has not believed in me"

"god cursed the one who drinks before the one who requests"

this deals with many issues including Que jumping

infaq is wajib and the prophet put a priority

first infaq on yourself when your need is finished then to the closest ones (aqraboon) closeness is by many ways namely:

closeness by geograpgy

closeness by ideology

ckloseness by blood

the the hadeeth continues and says if you have extra then to the next priority and it keeps going

its logical that if such situation arrived then men need to reduce thier ambitions for wives and celibacy will becomes the encouraged act. so it will be the other way around and god will sanction celibacy and if people completely opposed that and didn't allow it in the society then it becomes wajib kefie to promote it by anyone who is able in order to set a model just like what i am trying to do.

i think we have examples of celibate good people for one reason or another like john the baptist and some say jesus peace be upon them

Edited September 3, 2011 by alimohamad40

[Haydar Husayn]

The best example of this is the 5 of ahlulkisaa where they spend long time in hunger feeding the needy until the sourah of "al insaan" was revealed and promised them heaven.

Not really on topic, but this gives me an excuse to post this video for anyone that might not know what is being referred to:

I think there might be a valuable lesson about learning to do things for the sake of Allah سبحانه وتعالى, which might be relevant to these discussions though.

Edited September 3, 2011 by Haider Husayn

[Ruq]

I was aware of the hadith already, but thanks for posting the vid, beautiful.