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Gods Mercy Does Not Precede His Wrath It Seems :-|

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Mercy said to precede His wrath, but the picture Quran protays is wrath preceding mercy by a long shot.

It's only "believers + obedient + not disobedient + no desire of this world + not being astray" that makes you recepient of his mercy

if you disobey God, you will be in hell

if you desire this world, you will be in hell

if you disbelief in faith, you will be in hell

if you are astray, you will be in hell

I don't see how his mercy is preceding his wrath.

Can anyone answer, this is important. We follow Ahlul Bayt (as), so apparently Shias should be able to answer questions like this.

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Bismillah

I would change my habit of replying. Humbly backing off. ... Now where do I belong?

My sufi teacher told me: there is a backdoor to Islam. I had to find it with my own effort to get the answer.

Peace

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we believe that before we were born onto this world, our souls made contact with Allah, and we told the almight lord that we would obey his commands, and to not sin, therefore when we came here, saw the messengers and the scriptures from the lord, and still sinned, then surely hell is the only suitable location for you to go, if you continuously disobey, you are causing harm to your self and people around you, the desire in this world does not send you to hell, ie. i can have a ferrari live in a large house and still be a pious practicing believer, you just have to put it into context, give generously to the poor, and refrain from being attached to your possessions, therefor you can have in this world and in the hereafter, the only way you will be astray is through ignorance and through commiting sins, any soul can be saved from the torment of the fire through repentance, sincerely accepting that you have sinned and asking to be forgiven, and this has been showed to us through the many examples, which occured through out history. allahs mercy is every where, allahs mercy allows you to communicate, to be warm, to eat every day, to be comfterable, have oppertunity to education etc etc, there is no end to allahs mercy for us

(bismillah)

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Bismillah Arrahmaan Arraheem (bismillah) precedes every Sura.

It was once said that Imam Ali (as) began to give a lecture on the tafsir of suratil Fatiha after 'isha prayers. He barely finished the tafsir of (bismillah) when the call of morning prayers was made.

http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/194.htm

Allah's praise, advice about fear of Allah and details about the Day of Judgement

Praise be to Allah who has displayed such effects of His authority and the glory of His sublimity through the wonders of His might that they dazzle the pupils of the eyes and prevent the minds from appreciating the reality of His attributes. I stand witness that there is no god but Allah by virtue of belief, certainty, sincerity and conviction. I also stand witness that Muhammad is His slave and His Prophet whom He deputed when the signs of guidance were obliterated and the ways of religion were desolate. So, he threw open the truth, gave advice to the people, guided them towards righteousness and ordered them to be moderate. May Allah bless him and his descendants.

Know, O' creatures of Allah, that He has not created you for nought and has not left you free. He knows the extent of His favours over you and the quantity of His bounty towards you. Therefore, ask Him for success and for the attainment of aims. Beg before Him and seek His generosity. No curtain hides you from Him, nor is any door closed before you against Him. He is at every place, in every moment and every instance. He is with every man and jinn. Giving does not create any breach in Him. Gifting does not cause Him diminution. A beggar cannot exhaust Him and paying (to others) cannot take Him to the end.

One person cannot turn His attention from another, one voice does not detract Him from another voice, and one grant of favour does not prevent Him from refusing another favour. Anger does not prevent Him from mercy, mercy does not prevent Him from punishing; His concealment does not hide His manifestness and His manifestness does not prevent Him from concealment. He is near and at the same time distant. He is high and at the same time low. He is manifest and also concealed. He is concealed yet well-known. He lends but is not lent anything. He has not created (the things of) creation after devising, nor did He take their assistance on account of fatigue.

I advise you, O' creatures of Allah, to have fear of Allah, for it is the rein and the mainstay (of religion). Hold fast to its salient points, keep hold of its realities. It will take you to abodes of easiness, places of comfort, fortresses of safety and houses of honour on the Day (of Judgement) when eyes will be wide open, (Qur'an, 14:42), when there will be darkness all round, when small groups of camels pregnant for ten months will be allowed free grazing, and when the Horn will be blown, then every living being will die, every voice will become dumb the high mountains and hard rocks will crumble (to pieces) so that their hard stones will turn into moving sand and their bases will become level. (On that day) there will be no interceder to intercede and no relation to ward off (trouble), and no excuse will be of avail.

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The problem is not only the issue of wrath, it's a by product of view of what is justice. A person can do good to his family, not steal, not murder, be a good citizen, and believe in God, but rejects Quran, and he not only is not rewarded paradise but justice is that he must tormented severely in ways we cannot imagine. This concept of justice is itself a problem. But say people deserve that, where does mercy come in? Mercy is ignored, it's overridden by justice and what they deserve. Yet a person whom believe in Islam may commit a great crime that the former person never did, but repent, and God will have his mercy precede his wrath. That evil will be forgiven. Why forgiveness for the believer but not forgiveness for the disbeliever? To solve this, we make disbelief to be a greater crime that annuls all good the person does. We have a distorted view of justice, we make so huge the wrong the person did, and make so little of the good. He can have done so much charity but Quran says his actions are for naught. They are made useless.

Further point, it's not only justice, but ill-will of God for some people:

009.055

YUSUFALI: Let not their wealth nor their (following in) sons dazzle thee: in reality Allah's plan is to punish them with these things in this life, and that their souls may perish in their (very) denial of Allah.

PICKTHAL: So let not their riches nor their children please thee (O Muhammad). Allah thereby intendeth but to punish them in the life of the world and that their souls shall pass away while they are disbelievers.

SHAKIR: Let not then their property and their children excite your admiration; Allah only wishes to chastise them with these in this world's life and (that) their souls may depart while they are unbelievers.

Allah desires no mercy and good for the property and children of these people and he also wants to cause them to die disbelievers?

Is this an act of greatness? Wishing such evil, not even wanting them to repent and die believers, to benefit from what they have...

Anything Islam says about God must be great because Islam is true, is the line of thinking everyone goes through. It's not because people find punishing all astray souls in hell with increasing burning as great, that they attribute that to God, it's because Quran says so.

Why doesn't anyone like to emphasize on wrathful qualities to show his greatness? Talking about some mercy of God in midst of so much wrath doesn't make sense.

Imam Ali says his mercy doesn't prevent his wrath, yes in Islam, he ignores his mercy and punishes certain people, and for other people, he ignores his wrath, and gives them mercy. But the mercy side is for such few people with such a narrow criteria, it cannot be said that his mercy precedes his wrath.

His wrath precedes his mercy in most cases, only narrow criteria that will make you recepient of his mercy.

Yes you can talk about God accepting repentence of believers that then follow the guidance and obey him and don't love dunya, etc, but really what about everyone else? Astray souls in hell. Disbelief your in hell. In all these cases, there is no mercy.

But Ultimate mercy would leave no room for punishment, it would be merciful to all, without condition. That's what being most merciful would be.

Some humans can wish all humans receive mercy of God, and I would imagine God is more merciful then those humans.

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A person can do good to his family, not steal, not murder, be a good citizen, and believe in God, but rejects Quran, and he not only is not rewarded paradise but justice is that he must tormented severely in ways we cannot imagine.

As i told you in another thread

Disbelievers goods will be judged on whether they did the good for themselves or for others (to satisfy themselves) or for themselves for the afterlife. God (even if you don't want to call him Allah) is the fairest of judges. Don't underestimate His abilities. Questioning such a Being's abilities of fair judgement and justice is making a mockery of that Being's power.

Each person will be judged in relevance to what's in their hearts, their knowledge, their environmental upbringing and their intentions.

Mocking God's abilities isn't going to get you anywhere.

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Adding onto what Ya Aba said, there are different levels of paradise and hell. It's not all one and the same. I'm not one to say, but to it's my belief that if a person was to be a good person, not hurt anybody, and always helped people, etc, Allah sub7anahu wa ta3ala is the most fair of judges even beyond any of our comprehension and knows every single iota of what is in our hearts. Nothing is hidden from Him. These people perhaps might receive the lowest level of paradise in the end, perhaps, and Allah knows best. (Allahu a3lam) There are 7 levels of paradise for a reason.

Likewise on the other end of the spectrum, one who fully adhered to the divine message of God, followed the path of the purest of people Ahlul Bayt (as), did all the wajibat of Islam and died a complete Muslim, Allah swt would reward this person with the highest level of paradise, placing him/her at the level of his most closest awliya' (friends), along with his Ahlul Bayt and Prophets.

Edited by jund_el_Mahdi

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Adding onto what Ya Aba said, there are different levels of paradise and hell. It's not all one and the same. I'm not one to say, but to it's my belief that if a person was to be a good person, not hurt anybody, and always helped people, etc, Allah sub7anahu wa ta3ala is the most fair of judges even beyond any of our comprehension and knows every single iota of what is in our hearts. Nothing is hidden from Him. These people perhaps might receive the lowest level of paradise in the end, perhaps, and Allah knows best. (Allahu a3lam) There are 7 levels of paradise for a reason.

Yet verses in Quran says disbelievers acts are in vain, they are for naught, and astray souls will have the fire with increased burning over and over again.

You are bringing the idea as if there isn't verses say all those astray will be in hell with increased burning every time is allayed to them, or no verses saying whomever disbelieves in faith, his actions are for naught and he will of the losers.

Basically Quran is clear that a disbeliever will not be rewarded in the next world and will be punished with fire with perpetual increase in punishment.

But it's not only disbelievers whom will have the fire, all those whom desire this world are stated to be in hell.

Basically the criteria to receive God's mercy is very narrow, and there is a very distorted view of what is justice.

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Allah sub7anahu wa ta3ala always says in the end that he is the fairest of judges, no matter what our limited minds perceive of the Holy Qur'an. Even if someone disbelieved in Islam and wrote it off, which would only be out of his or her own naiveté, the Holy Prophet (saw) said even if your sins are so great, remember that Allah's mercy is far greater. From my experience, every aalim that I have spoken to has said yes, there will still be non-Muslims in paradise, for their hearts were so pure and clean and Allah's mercy doesn't extend to any unjust human being. Allah knows what is in your heart, 100%.

But, it is true, God's mercy is not the same for everything. Likewise, a person who prepares only an hour or two for an exam will not receive the same mark (judgement) as a person who prepares for weeks, for instance. Who receives more mercy (or compassion in this example) from a caretaker, a child who is still a good child, but becomes naughty at times and might be bratty occasionally, or a child who acts wonderfully and always listens and behaves? It would be unjust to reward the pure one and at the same time reward the naughty toddler at the same time. Well to me it would...

That is why we are in desperate need of the Imam of our time (as). The Ahlul Bayt (as) were always masters at interpreting each and every verse of the noble Qur'an, many things are taken literal, when there are a lot of verses that can be allegorical. I'm not an expert on tafseer, I believe the best way to move forward is to enter deep discussion with ulama', not common wayfarers. Allah forgive me if I have said any wrong.

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Yet verses in Quran says disbelievers acts are in vain, they are for naught, and astray souls will have the fire with increased burning over and over again.

You are bringing the idea as if there isn't verses say all those astray will be in hell with increased burning every time is allayed to them, or no verses saying whomever disbelieves in faith, his actions are for naught and he will of the losers.

Basically Quran is clear that a disbeliever will not be rewarded in the next world and will be punished with fire with perpetual increase in punishment.

But it's not only disbelievers whom will have the fire, all those whom desire this world are stated to be in hell.

Basically the criteria to receive God's mercy is very narrow, and there is a very distorted view of what is justice.

Exactly. The Quran DOES say that the acts of non believers will have gone in vain and they shall NOT be accounted for anything and that Hell is their inevitable abode to roast therein eternally.

So why are you ignoring this, Ya Aba and Jund_el_Mahdi???

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<div>

<div>

Basically Quran is clear that a disbeliever will not be rewarded in the next world and will be punished with fire with perpetual increase in punishment.
</div>

<p>Their reward of good actions that they were made with self-interesting and not for sake of God is rewarded here not in hereafter. If someone makes good action with sake of God, he will get Good deed in this life and hereafter.</p>

</div>

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It's only "believers + obedient + not disobedient + no desire of this world + not being astray" that makes you recepient of his mercy

if you disobey God, you will be in hell

if you desire this world, you will be in hell

if you disbelief in faith, you will be in hell

if you are astray, you will be in hell

How could you expect God not to punish you if you rob him from his right? You have to realize, as God says in Quran as well, that he will show you his signs until you realize that this is the truth. Yet, even after realizing the truth, people keep on being unjust to him for their whole life and not give him what he deserves, how can God be to blame? Honestly, I think we are the one to blame.

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From my experience, every aalim that I have spoken to has said yes, there will still be non-Muslims in paradise, for their hearts were so pure and clean

so only complete pure and clean hearts of non-muslims, by the way would you define a non-Muslims as guided or misguided:

وَمَنْ يَهْدِ اللَّهُ فَهُوَ الْمُهْتَدِ ۖ وَمَنْ يُضْلِلْ فَلَنْ تَجِدَ لَهُمْ أَوْلِيَاءَ مِنْ دُونِهِ ۖ وَنَحْشُرُهُمْ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ عَلَىٰ وُجُوهِهِمْ عُمْيًا وَبُكْمًا وَصُمًّا ۖ مَأْوَاهُمْ جَهَنَّمُ ۖ كُلَّمَا خَبَتْ زِدْنَاهُمْ سَعِيرًا {97}

[Shakir 17:97] And whomsoever Allah guides, he is the follower of the right way, and whomsoever He causes to err, you shall not find for him guardians besides Him; and We will gather them together on the day of resurrection on their faces, blind and dumb and deaf; their abode is hell; whenever it becomes allayed We will add to their burning.

It seems by this verse every soul that is astray, will be in hell-fire.

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So why are you ignoring this, Ya Aba and Jund_el_Mahdi???

[5:69] Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

These are unbelievers. So why does God make an exception for them?

It seems by this verse every soul that is astray, will be in hell-fire.

I don't know how you interpreted that verse. But the way i interpreted it was, if you err, you sinned, if you sinned, you did something that was unjust to your conscience even if you knew it was wrong for your conscience, and so you get punished for it.

I've already told you to check hadith al-thaqalayn (The Qur'an and Ahlul Bay are tied together, if you remove one the other collapses). You're interpreting things on your own.

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[5:69] Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

These are unbelievers. So why does God make an exception for them?

It's called a contradiction.

I don't know how you interpreted that verse. But the way i interpreted it was, if you err, you sinned, if you sinned, you did something that was unjust to your conscience even if you knew it was wrong for your conscience, and so you get punished for it.

I just interpret as all people whom are astray, as it says. Every human is bound to have sinned, even the people whom you quoted above, the people whom believe in God and last day, and did some good deeds (everyone does some good deeds) most likely have done some sins too.

A person whom has wrong beliefs, is he astray or guided?

I've already told you to check hadith al-thaqalayn (The Qur'an and Ahlul Bay are tied together, if you remove one the other collapses). You're interpreting things on your own.

You didn't bring a narration from Ahlbeayt defining what is lead astray either, you just gave me your opinion that it means whom sins..

Being in astray to me means not be guided on the truth or upon the straight path, if you follow falsehood and have wrong ideas, that means you are astray, if you are following a wrong path, you are astray as well.

Basically how can you define non-Muslims as not astray?

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Basically how can you define non-Muslims as not astray?

[10:47] To every people (was sent) a messenger: when their messenger comes (before them), the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged.

Stop making a mockery of God's abilities to judge fairly.

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[10:47] To every people (was sent) a messenger: when their messenger comes (before them), the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged.

Stop making a mockery of God's abilities to judge fairly.

Your avoiding the issue. I've read explanations that "those astray" in Suratal Fatiha are not going to be in hell, while those "wrath" upon is going to be in hell. Yet we read this verse that all those lead astray are going to hell.

The fact is this verse has other problems. How do you define lead astray and guided. I think most people have somethoughts that are correct and guided, while other thoughts that are astray and misguided.

We see Sirataliyunhaqan deems everyone not on his akhbari approach as basically lead astray. They are not sticking to the right path of following only Ma'asooms.

Others deem his thoughts astray and that we should be following scholars.

But something I know, no one is completely not astray in some of his thoughts.

What does it mean to be guided and what does it mean to be astray if no one is completely guided and no one is completely astray, it seems everyone is more like both guided and astray, guided in some ideas and actions, and misguided in some ideas and actions.

However if a non-Muslim can be defined as guided and not astray, even if he has wrong beliefs, doesn't believe in Quran, etc, what does it mean. It seems it's really arbitrary.

In fact it's pretty arbritary how it's used, everyone sees everyone else outside their group as misguided/astray, and everyone with their ideology and beliefs as guided. Yet all Muslims believe in God and Mohammad, why aren't they counted as believers and guided people? (hadiths have all those not sticking to Imams as astray)

If you can define astray, and whom is included and whom is not, I'm all ears. To me as of now, it was something that didn't make sense, but it was denote everyone that is not on the path of submitting to his Messengers and One God..that is what Mohammad most likely meant.

Edited by MysticKnight

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[Pickthal 2:62] Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 2:62]

Sabeans belonged to Chaldean religion. Their religion was much modified at various times and places by Jewish, Gnostic and Zoroastrian influences, and so there are conflicting accounts of them in various Muslim authors. Star-worship was the distinctive feature of their religion, otherwise they were monotheists.

Before saying that whoever believes in Allah and the last day, and does good, not becoming a Muslim even after Islam has been chosen as the religion of Allah, is entitled to be blessed by Allah, the following verse should be taken into consideration:

And whoso seeks as religion other than Islam it will not be accepted from him, and he will be among the losers in the hereafter.

(Ali Imran: 85)

And to remove misunderstanding, it should be noted that this verse refers to those Sabeans, Jews and Christians who, as sincere faithful, followed the original teachings of their respective prophets, without ever corrupting the true message, and believing in the prophecy of the advent of Muhammad made known by Musa, Isa and other prophets (see Baqarah: 40), and also those of them who lived in the days of the Holy Prophet but died before the news of his proclamation of the promised prophethood could reach them, because surely they would have come into the fold of Islam if they had known about it. Belief in the unity of Allah and the day of judgement and doing good is the spirit of Islam. This was the religion all the messengers of Allah preached to their people.

...............................................................................

This is another problem in the quran. If the verse was reffering to the past Christians and Jews who held onto the pure unadulterated belief , then why doesn't the verse have the one word that would solve this problem - "earlier" Jews and Christians? The verse doesnt have this, hence it becomes a contradiction. Why? because if the quran is meant for "all times", what's the point of this verse? It literally serves no purpose. It's not even an abrogated verse, it's just putting across a very ambiguous statement.

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...............................................................................

This is another problem in the quran. If the verse was reffering to the past Christians and Jews who held onto the pure unadulterated belief , then why doesn't the verse have the one word that would solve this problem - "earlier" Jews and Christians? The verse doesnt have this, hence it becomes a contradiction. Why? because if the quran is meant for "all times", what's the point of this verse? It literally serves no purpose. It's not even an abrogated verse, it's just putting across a very ambiguous statement.

The verse is in past tense, so it doesn't have to mean continuously all those whom believe in God and the last day. But the problem then it would apply to people of the book of that time, whom believed in God and the last day. However there are verses telling people of book to believe before they are cursed and saying whom deny his Ayat will be in hell. And whomever denies faith will basically be in hell.

Aside from that, the Quran says whomever desires this world will have nothing but the hell-fire... I'm sure their existed in the past and present people whom believed in God and last day, and did good deeds but desired the world as well.

People never think of these contradictions.

I've read the explanation it refers to past people but the issue is by the words, it should apply to the Christians and Jews and Sabeans living in the time of Mohammad that would include those whom didn't accept him as well.

What seems to me, is there is contradictory verses.

This one people explain it by saying it refers to past people, but by definition it would apply to the people of the book of that time too.

I didn't include this in one of the 28 issues in Quran perhaps I should have.

Edited by MysticKnight

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If you can define astray, and whom is included and whom is not, I'm all ears. To me as of now, it was something that didn't make sense, but it was denote everyone that is not on the path of submitting to his Messengers and One God..that is what Mohammad most likely meant.

http://www.al-islam....rs/letter27.htm

[ When Imam Ali (a) appointed Muhammad bin Abu Bakr as the Governor of Egypt, he gave him the following instructions. ]

Treat them (the Egyptians) with respect. Be kind and considerate with them. Meet them cheerfully. Be fair, just and impartial in your dealings so that even the influential persons may not dare take undue advantage of your leniency and the commoners and the poor may not be disappointed in your justice and fair dealings.

O creature of Allah! Remember that the Almighty Lord is going to take an account of everyone of your sins, major or minor and whether committed openly or secretly. If He punishes you for your sins, it will not be an act of tyranny and if He forgives you it will be because of His Great Mercy and Forgiveness.

O creature of Allah! Remember that pious persons passed away from this world after having led a respectable and fruitful life and they are going to be well-rewarded in the next world (when compared with the worldly-minded people they had equal opportunities of gathering fruits of this world and utilized them to the best of their abilities and at the same time kept away from all wicked and vicious ways of life). They did not jeopardize their salvation like worldly-minded persons. They led a more contented, more respectable and happier life than those who lived wickedly. They enjoyed the fruits of their labours and they had more gratifying, sober and healthy experience of the pleasures of life than the rich and the wealthy. They regaled themselves with the joys, the facilities and the bliss of this world as much as the tyrant and vicious people desired to enjoy. Yet while leaving this world they carried with them all that would be of use to them in the next world. While living in this world they enjoyed the happiness of relinquishing its evil ways.

They made themselves sure that in the life to come they will be recipient of His Grace and Blessings, their requests will not be turned down and the favours destined for them in Paradise will not be lessened or reduced.

O creature of Allah! Fear the inevitable and unavoidable death which is so near to everybody. Be prepared to meet it. Verily, it will come as the most important and the greatest event of your life; it will either carry unmixed blessings and rewards for you or it will bring in its wake punishments, sufferings, and eternal damnation. There will be no chance of its lessening or redemption or any change for the better. It is for you to decide whether to proceed towards perpetual peace and blessings - Paradise, or towards eternal damnation - the Hell. Remember that life is actually driving you towards death which will meet you if you are ready to face it and which will follow you like a shadow if you try to run away from it.

Death is with you as if it has been twisted and tied round your head in between your hair and life is being rolled away from behind you with each exhalation of your breath, never to be unrolled.

Be afraid of the fire - the Hell, whose depth is fathomless whose intensity is enormous and where new kinds of punishments are constantly being introduced. The Hell is an abode where there is no place for His Mercy and Blessings. Prayers of those who are thrown there will neither be heard nor accepted and there will not be any lessening in their sufferings and sorrows.

If it is possible for you to be sincerely afraid of Allah as well as have sincere faith in His Justice, Mercy and Love of His creatures, then try to hold these two beliefs firmly because a man entertains and cherishes the love, reverence and veneration of Allah in proportion to His fear and awe that develops in his mind.

Verily, among men he who fully believes in His Justice and is afraid of it, as well as likes it expects the best rewards from Allah.

O Muhammad, son of Abu Bakr! Remember that I have entrusted you with the command of the most important section of my army which is Egyptian. Do not allow your whims and passions to overrun your judgement. Keep on guarding and defending your religion and the State given under your trust. Take care that not for a single moment in your life, you incur the Wrath of Allah, to gain the pleasure of any person. Remember that the Pleasure of Allah can substitute the pleasure of everybody else and it will be the most beneficial substitute for you but His Pleasure cannot be substituted by anything. Offer your prayers on time, do not rush through them, and never delay in offering them. Remember that piety and nobleness of all your activities are subject to sincerity and punctuality of your prayers.

Remember that a true Imam and leader cannot be equal to the one who leads humanity towards wickedness and vice and eventually towards Hell nor can there be an equality between a follower of the Holy Prophet (s) and his sworn enemy.

Remember the Holy Prophet (s) said that so far as his followers are concerned he was not afraid of encroachments upon any true Muslim by a heathen because Allah will protect every true Muslim from evil deeds on account of the sincerity of his faith and He will expose and avert the evils introduced by heathens, but he (the Holy Prophet (s)) felt anxious about the activities of hypocrites among Muslims, activities of those outwardly wise and learned people who loudly proclaimed greatness and virtues of their good deeds but who secretly indulged in vices and sins.

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I don't understand you.

God judges fairly.

God takes into consideration all aspects of one's actions. As already mentioned several times. They include environmental upbringing. Knowledge. Intent. Mental state, etc. Be they Muslim or otherwise.

But God isn't going to say it's ok not to follow His religion and still go to heaven. Sanctioning two paths is a contradiction in itself. The path is set out. If the path isn't taken, then your abode lies with the Mercy of God, and He WILL judge fairly and justly. You're making a mockery of God's abilities to judge fairly and justly. And be sure that He will ask why the message wasn't followed when it was revealed. And the conscience better give Him a good answer. The conscience's abode relies on the validity and truth of that answer.

He's avoiding the question because it simply can't be answered or he is not able to answer it.

I didn't avoid anything.

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But God isn't going to say it's ok not to follow His religion and still go to heaven.

Ok.

Sanctioning two paths is a contradiction in itself. The path is set out. If the path isn't taken, then your abode lies with the Mercy of God, and He WILL judge fairly and justly.

Well it seems by verses of Quran the judgment is already there, if you take the wrong path, are astray, you end up in hell. You disbelieve in faith, you end up in hell.

You're making a mockery of God's abilities to judge fairly and justly.

I'm not making a mockery. The judgments of Islam;s concept of God are already in Quran. Some of them are contradictory to each other. Some of them don't make rational sense.

And be sure that He will ask why the message wasn't followed when it was revealed. And the conscience better give Him a good answer.

He might not ask because he already knows, and there is a chance people don't know themselves, and he will better at explaining to them.

The message is not followed for me simply because it has logical errors, contradictions, verses that don't make sense, and have protrayed a duel concept of God, with ugly monstrous side for most of humanity, and beautiful specially nice side for a few of humanity, with both sides being at odds with each others.

The consciences abode relies on the validity and truth of that answer.

Honestly, people believe what they believe for mostly illogical reasons. It turns out humans are not really logical people. That is why they Worshipped Gods and followed man made concepts and stories...

I think we don't really know why we err and why we believe without logical basis...I think we are confused, and we might not have an answer.

I believe God forgives and loves and has compassion on our sorry state, I really do. It's bad enough we believed in false truths, I think God would feel sorry for us instead of being angry at us. I think he forbears us.

Really I do. I'm not afraid of the monster side Islam protrays, because I don't think it's great at all, and it contradicts true Ultimate Greatness.

I didn't avoid anything.

Ok.

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Mercy said to precede His wrath, but the picture Quran protays is wrath preceding mercy by a long shot.

It's only "believers + obedient + not disobedient + no desire of this world + not being astray" that makes you recepient of his mercy

if you disobey God, you will be in hell

if you desire this world, you will be in hell

if you disbelief in faith, you will be in hell

if you are astray, you will be in hell

I don't see how his mercy is preceding his wrath.

Can anyone answer, this is important. We follow Ahlul Bayt (as), so apparently Shias should be able to answer questions like this.

Slamualaykum

Everyone will be judged based on the level of intellegance they had. So if one does not have the intellegance to calculate 1+1 then Allah will not punish them. One who is unaware is not punished. Disbelieving in faith means that proof has come to you and you ignored it and pushed it away. e.g there may be people who have never in their life heard of Islam. Therefore Allah cannot hold them accountable for it just like a mental person cannot be held accountable for his actions as he does not know the difference between right and wrong.

The gates of repentance is always open for those who want it. As for those who reject it, they know hell will be the consequence and they still don't repent, which means they don't mind hell fire. If repenting meant travelling the world 300 times then i'd understand that it is hard, but saying Astaghfirallah is very easy

Would you ever forgive a rapist?

Would you ever orgive someone who killed 90 people?

Would you ever fogive someone who buried their baby daughters alive?

Allah forgives these things as long as you regret them and repent, for one who does not regret doing these things is an oppressor and deserves punishment

Allah is indeed the most merciful

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I believe God forgives and loves and has compassion on our sorry state, I really do. It's bad enough we believed in false truths, I think God would feel sorry for us instead of being angry at us. I think he forbears us.

Should there or shouldn't be a hell? Can you explain your concept of justice to me?

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God judges fairly.

God takes into consideration all aspects of one's actions. As already mentioned several times. They include environmental upbringing. Knowledge. Intent. Mental state, etc. Be they Muslim or otherwise.

But God isn't going to say it's ok not to follow His religion and still go to heaven. Sanctioning two paths is a contradiction in itself. The path is set out. If the path isn't taken, then your abode lies with the Mercy of God, and He WILL judge fairly and justly. You're making a mockery of God's abilities to judge fairly and justly. And be sure that He will ask why the message wasn't followed when it was revealed. And the conscience better give Him a good answer. The conscience's abode relies on the validity and truth of that answer.

I didn't avoid anything.

So, perhaps, the verses in the Quran which state that "the deeds of unbelievers will go in vain, they shall have no accounting and they shall abide in hell eternally" refers only to those in the time of the Prophet, who were faced by the Prophet face to face but chose to reject the message and it doesn't refer to the 21st century non believers. Ok fine. Here's the problem though..

I thought the Quran was meant for "all times" and that it never goes out of date. What is the point of god reffering to non believers as having their deeds gone in vain, when it doesn't pertain to the later non believers? It's pointless. Can you explain this?

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So, perhaps, the verses in the Quran which state that "the deeds of unbelievers will go in vain, they shall have no accounting and they shall abide in hell eternally" refers only to those in the time of the Prophet, who were faced by the Prophet face to face but chose to reject the message and it doesn't refer to the 21st century non believers. Ok fine. Here's the problem though..

No the verse whom "disbelieves in faith" is not past tense, it is making a general statement on whomever would disbelieve in faith. The same is true of the verse of astray, it's not past tense. The same is true of whom wants this world. They are all statements that made in general, without past tense.

I thought the Quran was meant for "all times" and that it never goes out of date. What is the point of god reffering to non believers as having their deeds gone in vain, when it doesn't pertain to the later non believers? It's pointless. Can you explain this?

Well it has both verses of the past tense and verses that show anyone whom would disbelieve, or any whom would be lead astray, or anyone whom would love this world.

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So, perhaps, the verses in the Quran which state that "the deeds of unbelievers will go in vain

I've already repeated it a hundred times. The deeds are judged according to intent. Riyaa' is one of the greatest sins. You could pray and go to hell for it, because your prayer was to show off that you were somehow a mu'min.

Similarly, there is a strong likelihood that the deed of the unbeliever wasn't because of pure intent, but of a wrong purpose. I know many (including irreligious Muslims) that would do a 'good' deed only because someone else did something good for them, so it was just a pay-back so they didn't feel like they owed the other person any favors. Such deeds DO go in vein. And a person who doesn't understand the message properly, is more likely to fall into the trap of committing a deed out of selfish reasons as opposed to being genuine. It is for this reason we have so many hadiths that say things like one hour of contemplation is worth more than 70 years of worship, or, Imam Ali (as) telling His sons (as) "I heard your grandfather, peace be upon him, say: "Reconciliation of your differences is more worthy than all prayers and all fasting."

You guys ought to read these:

http://www.al-islam.org/fortyhadith/

http://www.al-islam.org/adl_ilahi/

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Should there or shouldn't be a hell? Can you explain your concept of justice to me?

Well you use to the concept of justice that everyone must get what they deserve. Yet make a special case for believers whom repent + obey + not desire this world, they will get more then they deserve and in fact will not be made to face consequence of their sins, their sins will be forgiven.

Basically the concept that God is just in the sense he will make people pay for his sins, is not something of greatness.

Justice has different meanings. It is ambigious and depends on how it's used. If you don't punish someone for their sins, are you being unjust to them? No of course not.

The concept of justice people want to apply to God, that he must punish evil doers, is not something I believe in. I think Mercy and forgiveness is really what is Great in this instance.

If he was to make them pay for their crimes, that would be lack of mercy and forbearance and forgiveness.

I don't believe God is just in that sense. I believe God is just in the sense he doesn't do injustice to anyone, he won't be cruel to anyone.

Basically if you believe Love, Mercy, Forgiveness, Forbearance, they leave no room for the sense of justice that all must pay for their crimes.

As I said, I feel it's a huge thing, if we learn to forgive and love everyone one.

When you start putting a limit to God's mercy, you then justify every limit, to the extent anyone desire this world or disbelieves in Islam or is dumb enough to worship another god, is going to be punished..because we have put a limit to his mercy...

But if you believe in mercy and love and compassion, why put a limit to the extent of that in Ultimate Greatness? Basically because we could never love all, forbear all, we have protrayed that God must be like that too...

because we want certain people to pay for their crimes...we think God wants that too and that all good human beings want that too...

It's an assumption, but how do you prove it.

To me Ultimate Mercy is what is Ultimately Great, and it contradicts the sense of being just in the sense of making people pay for their crimes.

You may bring examples of extreme evil people, and it's hard for us to forgive and love and wish well for it, but why is Ultimately Merciful and Ultimately Forgiving limited on whom he can forgive and have mercy on?

It's either everyone get's nothing but what they deserve or there is mercy and God will forgive, this not making a special few pay for their crimes and being graceful towards them but nothing but severe justice that results in torment for rest, doesn't really make sense to me.

I also think torture of fire is not justice and people don't deserve that even if they did more evil then good.

Edited by MysticKnight

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I don't believe God is just in that sense. I believe God is just in the sense he doesn't do injustice to anyone, he won't be cruel to anyone.

It's an assumption, but how do you prove it.

He'll be cruel to those that deserve cruelty, and mercy to those who deserve mercy.

The proof lies in His Greatness. A Being that can create the Universe is guaranteed to pass down fair and adequate Justice. And you are nobody compared to His abilities. There is no fairer judge than Him. Because only He has insight to take into consideration all aspects that lead to people's actions.

And the Qur'an uses the terms "wallahu ghafour ur-Rahim" on hundreds of occasions.

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He'll be cruel to those that deserve cruelty, and mercy to those who deserve mercy.

I know this is your view, but I don't believe that. I believe God will merciful to everyone, deserving or undeserving.

The proof lies in His Greatness.

Well we disagree on what is Ultimate Greatness then. I think Ultimate Greatness loves all, will have be graceful to all, will forbear all.

And the Qur'an uses the terms "wallahu ghafour ur-Rahim" on hundreds of occasions.

Yet only a select few will be forgiven and have mercy upon, while no forgiveness and mercy for all the rest of astray souls.

As I said, it's like a an overshadowed beauty, when we talk about mercy and love and forgiveness of God in Islam, it's overshadowed by his hate, wrath, and vengeance and severe justice and severe punishment...I just don't believe in the monster part that overshadows the beauty...

I believe in just the beauty, which leaves no room for the opposite of it and the contradictory attributes.

If he is All-Forgiving All-Merciful, then everyone is forgiven and he will be merciful to all.

Edited by MysticKnight

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Well you use to the concept of justice that everyone must get what they deserve. Yet make a special case for believers whom repent + obey + not desire this world, they will get more then they deserve and in fact will not be made to face consequence of their sins, their sins will be forgiven.

Well, people who repent + obey + not desire this world can't really commit some unforgiven sins due to their character itself. As for their past sins, perhaps God cleansed them from those sins by setting harsh ordeals and misfortune in this world? Let's not forget that guilt in itself is one harsh punishment, perhaps that pain [of guilt] was a punishment that cleansed them from sins of the past?

Basically the concept that God is just in the sense he will make people pay for his sins, is not something of greatness.

Why not? Would you appreciate the kind of God that keep on forgiving people despite of all the evils they commit?

Justice has different meanings. It is ambigious and depends on how it's used. If you don't punish someone for their sins, are you being unjust to them? No of course not.

Yes, you are being unjust to them. Considering God didn't cleansed him from the evils he committed and his soul isn't balanced, of course he's being unjust.

The concept of justice people want to apply to God, that he must punish evil doers, is not something I believe in. I think Mercy and forgiveness is really what is Great in this instance.

What? Mercy and Forgiveness to the evil doers is worse kind of injustice to those who suffered from the vices of the evil.

If he was to make them pay for their crimes, that would be lack of mercy and forbearance and forgiveness.

That's your short-sightedness. If a spouse of certain smoker makes him stop smoking and make him pay for getting caught up in the addictive choke-hold in the first place [by making him not smoke no matter how hard his mind scream to quit the ordeal], would you consider that lack of mercy and forbearance and forgiveness?

I also think torture of fire is not justice and people don't deserve that even if they did more evil then good.

Copy paste:

I think you should realize that there are certain wounds times don't heal. Some evils inflicted on some poor people haunts them for eternity, transforming their life into personal hell. How else do you think the perpetrator of such crimes should be punished? Just look at how the events of Karbala haunted Zayn al-Abideen as-Sajjad for the rest of his life.

Another point to consider, I don't think you realize that certain actions [which we might mispercieve as "trivial"] has much more far-reaching effects than we think. There's a saying [i learned it from a movie, DEAL WITH IT!]: 'For want of a nail, the horseshoe was lost. For want of a horseshoe, the steed was lost. For want of a steed, the message was not delivered. For want of an undelivered message, the war was lost.'

I've seen family torn over mindless slandering, and I've seen perfectly normal young boy growing up to become furiously bitter, cruel individual who went on to cause massive mayhem and, in turn, created more monsters. A simple slander and false accusation can start a vicious cycle of events that are unacceptable to say the least.

Edited by The Exalted One

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Well, people who repent + obey + not desire this world can't really commit some unforgiven sins due to their character itself. As for their past sins, perhaps God cleansed them from those sins by setting harsh ordeals and misfortune in this world? Let's not forget that guilt in itself is one harsh punishment, perhaps that pain [of guilt] was a punishment that cleansed them from sins of the past?

So basically your saying there is not even mercy here, it's what they deserve. You make it sound like a good thing that there is no mercy from God, and just justice.

Why not? Would you appreciate the kind of God that keep on forgiving people despite of all the evils they commit?

Yes, I would appreciate the kind of God that forgiveness people despite all the evils they commit.

Yes, you are being unjust to them. Considering God didn't cleansed him from the evils he committed and his soul isn't balanced, of course he's being unjust.

Why would torturing cleanse a person? Why not thought of what he did, regret, time to think... all that don't need punishment. Regretting simply because you are being punished doesn't sound like a sincere regret of the crime.

Sincere regret of the crime will be when you regret doing it, despite it having no consequence on you.

What? Mercy and Forgiveness to the evil doers is worse kind of injustice to those who suffered from the vices of the evil.

I disagree with that, I feel endowing their hearts compassion and love and forgiveness to those whom did injustice to them is better way of treating them then attempting to sastify unmerciful vengeful feelings they have..this is making them better people, and having better hearts

as I said I believe God wants us to forgive and love all, despite oppression and wrong.

That's your short-sightedness. If a spouse of certain smoker makes him stop smoking and make him pay for getting caught up in the addictive choke-hold in the first place [by making him not smoke no matter how hard his mind scream to quit the ordeal], would you consider that lack of mercy and forbearance and forgiveness?

I don't understand.

Copy paste:

I think you should realize that there are certain wounds times don't heal. Some evils inflicted on some poor people haunts them for eternity, transforming their life into personal hell. How else do you think the perpetrator of such crimes should be punished? Just look at how the events of Karbala haunted Zayn al-Abideen as-Sajjad for the rest of his life.

Another point to consider, I don't think you realize that certain actions [which we might mispercieve as "trivial"] has much more far-reaching effects than we think. There's a saying [i learned it from a movie, DEAL WITH IT!]: 'For want of a nail, the horseshoe was lost. For want of a horseshoe, the steed was lost. For want of a steed, the message was not delivered. For want of an undelivered message, the war was lost.'

I've seen family torn over mindless slandering, and I've seen perfectly normal young boy growing up to become furiously bitter, cruel individual who went on to cause massive mayhem and, in turn, created more monsters. A simple slander and false accusation can start a vicious cycle of events that are unacceptable to say the least.

ok.

Edited by MysticKnight

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I'm kinda' wasted, excuse engrish lol

So basically your saying there is not even mercy here, it's what they deserve. You make it sound like a good thing that there is no mercy from God, and just justice.

Isn't the fact that God let go off the vicious for so long enough proof of his mercy on him? And then bringing the vicious back to his senses [through guilt ... or something else] before he ends up bringing himself and others to brink of ruins enough proof of his mercy?

And again, I don't think you quite understand that this could very well BE God's mercy. Much like the example I gave about our hypothetical smoker, drug addict, whose spouse is aiding him break free of the addictive choke-hold. While it may seem that his spouse is being unmerciful to him by not allowing him another shot and letting him calm his nerves once and for all, the spouse is actually protecting him to wash the negative influence [of drugs] out of his system and protecting him from the negative consequences of this harmful habit.

Yes, I would appreciate the kind of God that forgiveness people despite all the evils they commit.

I'd love to see your reaction if someone did some kind of harm to you and the judge goes all forgiving on the culprit.

Why would torturing cleanse a person? Why not thought of what he did, regret, time to think... all that don't need punishment. Regretting simply because you are being punished doesn't sound like a sincere regret of the crime.

Sincere regret of the crime will be when you regret doing it, despite it having no consequence on you.

The evil person BROUGHT the torture on himself. Like I explained, regret [or guilt trips] in itself are quite a torture.

Besides, those who are sincerely regretful usually seek atonement for their sins. Firstly, we don't know much about judgment day. Who's to say we won't accept punishment out of our own freewill because of guilty conscience? I mean, in this world, this happens everyday. We don't know much, there could be a similar case as this, why pass down judgments about something we have virtually no knowledge about?

I disagree with that, I feel endowing their hearts compassion and love and forgiveness to those whom did injustice to them is better way of treating them then attempting to sastify unmerciful vengeful feelings they have..this is making them better people, and having better hearts

as I said I believe God wants us to forgive and love all, despite oppression and wrong.

Mother Theresa isn't God. And this isn't mercy, this is encouragement of evil. In fact, this IS oppression. What's the difference between good and evil if both have the same effect and consequences? How can not deterring the evil be considered an act of mercy?

Edited by The Exalted One

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