Those Who Believe In One God

[Abu Nur]

Salaam Aleikum,

There is interesting hadith from Kitab al-Tawhid by Al-Sheik Al-Saduq (ra), where Prophet Muhammad (saws) said:

"Whoever dies without ascribing a partner to Allah (God), will enter Heaven regardless of whether he has done good or Evil"

(!) Notice that Prophet Muhammad (SAWS) have also said (in bukhari):

"People must suffer the burning of Hell-Fire as a punishment for the sins they committed.

He also said "There will come out of Hell everyone who says: La Ilaha illa Allah, and has in heart good equal to the weight of a barley grain or wheat grain or good equal to the weight of an atom (or a smallest ant) (Bukhari)

Edited August 31, 2011 by Zufa

[MysticKnight]

مَنْ كَانَ يُرِيدُ الْحَيَاةَ الدُّنْيَا وَزِينَتَهَا نُوَفِّ إِلَيْهِمْ أَعْمَالَهُمْ فِيهَا وَهُمْ فِيهَا لَا يُبْخَسُونَ {15}

[Shakir 11:15] Whoever desires this world's life and its finery, We will pay them in full their deeds therein, and they shall not be made to. suffer loss in respect of them.

أُولَٰئِكَ الَّذِينَ لَيْسَ لَهُمْ فِي الْآخِرَةِ إِلَّا النَّارُ ۖ وَحَبِطَ مَا صَنَعُوا فِيهَا وَبَاطِلٌ مَا كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ {16}

[Shakir 11:16] These are they for whom there is nothing but fire in the hereafter, and what they wrought in it shall go for nothing, and vain is what they do.

Notice it doesn't simply state they will have the fire, it says they will have nothing else in the hereafter but the fire. This means it won't be they have paradise after fire, because it says nothing but the fire in the hereafter.

Sunni Muslims believe every Muslim will enter paradise no matter what Sins, they will eventually enter paradise.

Little do they realize according to this verse, that such a thing is not true for major sinners as obviously they have desire of dunya, but vast majority of Muslims, most likely to the extent of 99.9%.

In fact all astray souls are promised that the fire will always increase in burning for them:

وَمَنْ يَهْدِ اللَّهُ فَهُوَ الْمُهْتَدِ ۖ وَمَنْ يُضْلِلْ فَلَنْ تَجِدَ لَهُمْ أَوْلِيَاءَ مِنْ دُونِهِ ۖ وَنَحْشُرُهُمْ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ عَلَىٰ وُجُوهِهِمْ عُمْيًا وَبُكْمًا وَصُمًّا ۖ مَأْوَاهُمْ جَهَنَّمُ ۖ كُلَّمَا خَبَتْ زِدْنَاهُمْ سَعِيرًا {97}

[Shakir 17:97] And whomsoever Allah guides, he is the follower of the right way, and whomsoever He causes to err, you shall not find for him guardians besides Him; and We will gather them together on the day of resurrection on their faces, blind and dumb and deaf; their abode is hell; whenever it becomes allayed We will add to their burning.

[14infallibles]

(salam)

May Allah make us from the muwahhideen , those who are firm with LA ILAHA ILLA Allah

[MysticKnight]

The question is, what is the point of believing just one God if our concept of him is morally inadequate?

So much virtue is emphasized on making sure you say not two, or three or four or a hundred etc, but what if our thought of God is that of a Super Monster and Unethical?

What if torturing people eternally with severe torment for simply being astray or desiring this world is unethical?

What if Muslims are Worshipping an Unethical God? What is the point of falling in love and devoting oneself to Unethical concept of God?

Some people feel they will loose nothing if they are wrong about Islam, but you might be Worshipping a very unethical concept of God if Islam is wrong on what is an ethical concept of a Creator.

[Abu Nur]

[Shakir 11:15] Whoever desires this world's life and its finery, We will pay them in full their deeds therein, and they shall not be made to. suffer loss in respect of them.

[Shakir 11:16] These are they for whom there is nothing but fire in the hereafter, and what they wrought in it shall go for nothing, and vain is what they do.

Good point! But what i understand that this only applies for those who "only" desire this world's life. These people are those who do not believe in God or they believe in God but believe only in this world life and they only desire it. That is the category.

But what about people who do not desire this wordi life who are not even muslims, such a hadith may apply to them.

What if torturing people eternally with severe torment for simply being astray or desiring this world is unethical?

What if Muslims are Worshipping an Unethical God? What is the point of falling in love and devoting oneself to Unethical concept of God?

What if you have not yet archived particular level of the wisdom of God attributes, that may give you understanding and justice of the punishment of God?

Every attributes of God have infinity level of wisdom that the more we understand these attributes the more we understand Him and His will.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Zufa

[MysticKnight]

Good point! But what i understand that this only applies for those who "only" desire this world's life. These people are those who do not believe in God or they believe in God but believe only in this world life and they only desire it. That is the category.

But what about people who do not desire this wordi life who are not even muslims, such a hadith will apply to them.

Everyone brings this "only" thing. If it meant only, I would say it would have to say only, because otherwise, by language structure, you can't add an invisible "only" and change the meaning.

I desire a car.

Can that possibly mean only desire a car and nothing else? Of course not.

It's the same thing. The language means what it means, the word "only" has a purpose, so if it meant only this world, it should've stated that, but instead it stated whom desires this world, which technically can mean desire this world and the next.

This verse has major problems specially when you take account other verses like "whom desires the reward of the next world, we will give him from it"..

[Ya Aba 3abdillah]

Tawhid is the epicenter of all existence, and it spells Al-Lah The-One. And those three letters alone a-l-h spell the conviction "laa ilaaha illAllah" and who ever professes it with conviction has created a direct link between themselves and The-One.

[14infallibles]

Everyone brings this "only" thing. If it meant only, I would say it would have to say only, because otherwise, by language structure, you can't add an invisible "only" and change the meaning.

I desire a car.

Can that possibly mean only desire a car and nothing else? Of course not.

It's the same thing. The language means what it means, the word "only" has a purpose, so if it meant only this world, it should've stated that, but instead it stated whom desires this world, which technically can mean desire this world and the next.

This verse has major problems specially when you take account other verses like "whom desires the reward of the next world, we will give him from it"..

It specified who the verse is talking about: Those who desire this world ... I dont see what your point is

Edited August 31, 2011 by 14infallibles

[MysticKnight]

It specified who the verse is talking about: Those who desire this world ... I dont see what your point is

My point is, it doesn't mean desire the world and nothing else but that. It means desire the world, which can meaning desiring other things like being a moral person or desiring wisdom or desiring knowledge, or desiring the next world, or desiring to please God.

[Abu Nur]

My point is, it doesn't mean desire the world and nothing else but that. It means desire the world, which can meaning desiring other things like being a moral person or desiring wisdom or desiring knowledge, or desiring the next world, or desiring to please God.

You need to understand that Wordly life have its own attributes and one of them is doing these thing only for sake of self-interesting. Pleasing God is not wordily life.

[Ya Aba 3abdillah]

or desiring to please God.

With that, everything else falls into place, like branches off a root, like the one piece of knowledge that was given to Imam Ali (as) by Rasoul (pbuh) on his last breath that spawned 1000 pieces of knowledge, from which 1000 pieces of knowledge spawned from each one of them.

Desiring to please God will prompt the desire for knowledge and desire for wisdom and desire for morality. And know that the desire to please God has no consequence to Him, as the consequences of the desire return back to the one having those desires in the form of respite.

[MysticKnight]

You need to understand that Wordly life have its own attributes and one of them is doing these thing only for sake of self-interesting. Pleasing God is not wordily life.

Yes having self-interest, but it doesn't mean only for self interest. Have desire of the world simply means that, you desire this life, the good things in it, a good job, money, a nice wife, good children... It in fact explained some of the "adornments of this world" here:

018.046

YUSUFALI: Wealth and sons are allurements of the life of this world: But the things that endure, good deeds, are best in the sight of thy Lord, as rewards, and best as (the foundation for) hopes.

PICKTHAL: Wealth and children are an ornament of the life of the world. But the good deeds which endure are better in thy Lord's sight for reward, and better in respect of hope.

SHAKIR: Wealth and children are an adornment of the life of this world; and the ever-abiding, the good works, are better with your Lord in reward and better in expectation.

003.014

YUSUFALI: Fair in the eyes of men is the love of things they covet: Women and sons; Heaped-up hoards of gold and silver; horses branded (for blood and excellence); and (wealth of) cattle and well-tilled land. Such are the possessions of this world's life; but in nearness to Allah is the best of the goals (To return to).

PICKTHAL: Beautified for mankind is love of the joys (that come) from women and offspring; and stored-up heaps of gold and silver, and horses branded (with their mark), and cattle and land. That is comfort of the life of the world. Allah! With Him is a more excellent abode.

SHAKIR: The love of desires, of women and sons and hoarded treasures of gold and silver and well bred horses and cattle and tilth, is made to seem fair to men; this is the provision of the life of this world; and Allah is He with Whom is the good goal (of life).

[Abu Nur]

There are people who battle between pleasing God with non self-interesting deed and deed that are only made for sake of God, and between wordily life actions that are made only for sake of pleasing our own desires.

Yes having self-interest, but it doesn't mean only for self interest. Have desire of the world simply means that, you desire this life, the good things in it, a good job, money, a nice wife, good children... It in fact explained some of the "adornments of this world" here:

So according this, desiring nice wife, good job, good children will lead us to hell of fire? Because good thing or bad thing, if its desire of wordly life then its means you will still enter to hell. Nonsense.

What it means is simply, there is nothing wrong with correct desire, but desires have their intentions and good and bad actions. Correct Desire will develop your spiritual and physical level, this desire are made in Halal way thus pleasing God. But Bad desires which are made not to please God but to please individual ego are called Wordly life desires.

Believer may sometimes do deeds that are desired not for sake of God but for wordily life, thus he may repent.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Zufa

[MysticKnight]

There are people who battle between pleasing God with non self-interesting deed and deed that are only made for sake of God, and between wordily life actions that are made only for sake of pleasing our own desires.

Some actions are only done for pleasing your desire. You a watch movie, it's to please you. You play a video game, it's to please you.

The fact there is nothing wrong with that. It's when your only selfish, otherwise, doing things for your self-interest are fine.

Desiring this world is fine. There is nothing wrong with it.

Anyways, most people believe in the next world and desire the reward of the next world. That doesn't mean they don't desire this world or that they are Muslims. So it seems like a contradiction.

God will give all those whom desire the reward of the next world, the reward.

God will give nothing but hell-fire to those desire this world.

It seems it didn't occur to the author of Quran, that you can desire both. This is one of my issues in the 28 issues of Quran I wrote about it.

It also didn't seem like it occured to the author people whom reject the Quran can desire the reward of the next world as well.

Tawhid is the epicenter of all existence, and it spells Al-Lah The-One. And those three letters alone a-l-h spell the conviction "laa ilaaha illAllah" and who ever professes it with conviction has created a direct link between themselves and The-One.

What if the Idea of God is very different then the real God? What if you have thought of an morally inadequate God? What if Islam's concept of God is very remote from the true God? What if God is far more forgiving, loves everyone, will forbear all, but you think he will punish and torment all those whom disbelieve in a book you think is written by him? What if the very idea of torment by fire for eons is against the morality of God and makes into a monster to those whom have the real understanding of God?

Why is saying one God as opposed to many so important, but not the idea of what high morality is? If a polytheist had a better view of God, then why is it so bad he believes in many lesser gods for example, but has a better view of the Ultimate God?

Try answering from your own logic instead of just telling me how unforgivable and unjust the crime of many gods is per Quran.

Edited August 31, 2011 by MysticKnight

[Ya Aba 3abdillah]

What if the Idea of God is very different then the real God? What if you have thought of an morally inadequate God?

Well you better pray .... wait, that won't work to a morally inadequate God.

You better ... actually, you're pretty screwed.

You see, if God does indeed exist, and they're morally inadequate, you have no power what so ever over your conscience. Once you're physical body is dead, you have no choice what happens to your conscience, just like you had no choice in being on this earth, or in the flesh that you're in. And if the immoral God chooses to put you in fire by subjecting your conscience to the simulation of fire, well I don't know what to say to you, because wishing you luck or praying won't make a difference, heck i better not cross the path of an immoral God, let me just sit in the corner and hope to myself his attention isn't focused on me.

[MysticKnight]

Well you better pray .... wait, that won't work to a morally inadequate God.

No it can work. Having a good quality, doesn't mean not having a bad quality. Islam gives good attributes to God but it seems to be it gives bad image as well. The over all image is not the best and greatest possible concept, it in fact seems like double personality lord, one side very mean wrathful unforgiving and another side very pleasant, good, graceful, just really depends if you believe in some right things or disbelieve in those. However when you look at some other verses, even the believing is not good enough, and God's wrath will precede his mercy and love and compassion.

You see, if God does indeed exist, and they're morally inadequate, you have no power what so ever over your conscience.

I don't see how that follows.

Once you're physical body is dead, you have no choice what happens to your conscience, just like you had no choice in being on this earth, or in the flesh that you're in. And if the immoral God chooses to put you in fire by subjecting your conscience to the simulation of fire, well I don't know what to say to you, because wishing you luck or praying won't make a difference, heck i better not cross the path of an immoral God, let me just sit in the corner and hope to myself his attention isn't focused on me.

I think you don't understand what I'm saying. I'm saying what if the concept that Quran portrays about God is not the best moral concept. What if he is far greater and a lot of the concept has diminished his greatness and is far below his glory?

This is why I'm asking why is so emphasized on the simply knowing there is one instead of what you deem the Ultimate being is. What if someone worships lesser gods, doesn't even deem them infinite, but worships the Creator as Absolute Greatness and has a better thought of God then monothiets? Why is he less connected to God then a monotheist?

[Abu Nur]

Some actions are only done for pleasing your desire. You a watch movie, it's to please you. You play a video game, it's to please you.

The fact there is nothing wrong with that. It's when your only selfish, otherwise, doing things for your self-interest are fine.

Desiring this world is fine. There is nothing wrong with it.

Actually there is wrong with that. YOu need to understand that Islam define Wordly life and Next life differently. look what quran say:

“Every one shall taste death…. The life of this world is only the enjoyment of deception (a deceiving thing)” (3:185)., which means actions and wrong intentions that are focused for Wordly life will only decept you. What about desires that have good intentions and which people do only for sake of Allah, is it also deception?

Also there is this verse:

“Those are they who have bought the life of this world at the cost of price of the hereafter. Their torment shall not be lightened nor shall they be helped.” (2:86)

Anyways, most people believe in the next world and desire the reward of the next world. That doesn't mean they don't desire this world or that they are Muslims. So it seems like a contradiction.

I gave you good example: Believer may sometimes do deeds that are desired not for sake of God but for wordily life, thus he may repent from it.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Zufa

[MysticKnight]

Actually there is wrong with that. YOu need to understand that Islam define Wordly life and Next life differently. look what quran say:

“Every one shall taste death…. The life of this world is only the enjoyment of deception (a deceiving thing)” (3:185)., which means actions and wrong intentions that are focused for Wordly life will only decept you. What about desires that have good intentions and which people do only for sake of Allah, is it also deception?

To be honest, one verse says "the life of this world is but play and amusement" and life of this world is certainly not just play, and another verse says this life of this world is just means of deception, when the life is not just deceptions, there is many non-deceiving things in it...

When it says the life of this world is but means of deception, it's trying to give a description of the life of the world. It doesn't mean the word dunya refers to just deceptions.. for example wealth, children, women, all these things are considered deceptions.

Anything in life of this world is but amusement. I don't think children and women are just amusement. I don't think they are just means of deception either.

So you bringing another verse trying to ignore what one verse is saying by it, is not at all reasonable. In fact what the verse says itself has to be analyzed.

Everyone accepts it when it says the life of this world is just play and amusement, but is it really? Is it really describing life? And is this world really nothing but means of deception? Isn't this world a means to grow morally? Isn't it means to learn? Isn't it a means to be tested?

I don't think so.

The problem is the verse that this world's life is nothing but means of deception doesn't make sense. Neither it being just amusement and play. Neither desiring it earning hell-fire forever make sense either.

[Abu Nur]

To be honest, one verse says "the life of this world is but play and amusement" and life of this world is certainly not just play, and another verse says this life of this world is just means of deception, when the life is not just deceptions, there is many non-deceiving things in it...

When it says the life of this world is but means of deception, it's trying to give a description of the life of the world. It doesn't mean the word dunya refers to just deceptions.. for example wealth, children, women, all these things are considered deceptions.

Anything in life of this world is but amusement. I don't think children and women are just amusement. I don't think they are just means of deception either.

So you bringing another verse trying to ignore what one verse is saying by it, is not at all reasonable. In fact what the verse says itself has to be analyzed.

Everyone accepts it when it says the life of this world is just play and amusement, but is it really? Is it really describing life? And is this world really nothing but means of deception? Isn't this world a means to grow morally? Isn't it means to learn? Isn't it a means to be tested?

I don't think so.

The problem is the verse that this world's life is nothing but means of deception doesn't make sense. Neither it being just amusement and play. Neither desiring it earning hell-fire forever make sense either.

I will reply for this post later if you allow.

[Abu Nur]

To be honest, one verse says "the life of this world is but play and amusement" and life of this world is certainly not just play, and another verse says this life of this world is just means of deception, when the life is not just deceptions, there is many non-deceiving things in it...

“Know that the life of this world is only play, and idle talk, and pageantry, and boasting among you and rivalry in respect of wealth and children: as the likeness of vegetation after rain, whereof the growth is pleasing to the husbandman, but afterward it drieth up and thou seest it turning yellow, then it becometh straw. And in the Hereafter there is grievous punishment."

-the Holy Quran (57:20)

“So now, certainly I frighten you from this world for it is sweet and green, surrounded by lusts, and liked for its immediate enjoyments. It excites wonder with small things, is ornamented with (false) hopes and decorated with deception. Its rejoicing do not last and its afflictions cannot be avoided. It is deceitful, harmful, changing, perishable, exhaustible, liable to destruction eating away and destructive."

and

The world is a place for which destruction is ordained and for its inhabitants departure from here is destined. It is sweet and green. It hastens towards its seeker and attaches to the heart of the viewer. So depart from here with the best of provision available with you and do not ask herein more than what is enough and do not demand from it more than subsistence.

(read more here: http://www.al-islam.org/selfbuilding/10.htm)

In simply way the description of wordily life here is the positive and negative attributes that will lead you to corruption, short pleasure, false hopes, bad intentions and actions in physical and spiritual realm.

Thus Verse 11:15 means people who live such a life and still chasing these attributes that will only lead them against God will and against his pleasure.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Zufa

[MysticKnight]

وَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ يَقُولُ رَبَّنَا آتِنَا فِي الدُّنْيَا حَسَنَةً وَفِي الْآخِرَةِ حَسَنَةً وَقِنَا عَذَابَ النَّارِ {201}

[Shakir 2:201] And there are some among them who say: Our Lord! grant us good in this world and good in the hereafter, and save us from the chastisement of the fire

Dunya refers to this life, this world.

The verses you are quoting are defining Quran's perspective of what this life of the world is. I disagree with what it says. It says is but amusement and play in one verse. Nothing but deceptions in another verse. Includes wealth, children, wife, and other things, as part of the adornment of this world...but I don't think any of these things are bad in themselves.

I disagree with both Quran and hadiths analysis of what this temporary world is. It's not just means of deceptions, it's not just play and amusement, it's even more then just a test.

I disagree with desiring it being wrong. I certainly disagree with it being such a evil, that desiring it at all earns you eternal torment.

I also don't think desiring this world will make you turn against his pleasure.

Edited August 31, 2011 by MysticKnight

[Abu Nur]

This guy is unbelievable.

[Ya Aba 3abdillah]

وَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ يَقُولُ رَبَّنَا آتِنَا فِي الدُّنْيَا حَسَنَةً وَفِي الْآخِرَةِ حَسَنَةً وَقِنَا عَذَابَ النَّارِ {201}

[Shakir 2:201] And there are some among them who say: Our Lord! grant us good in this world and good in the hereafter, and save us from the chastisement of the fire

Dunya refers to this life, this world.

The verses you are quoting are defining Quran's perspective of what this life of the world is. I disagree with what it says. It says is but amusement and play in one verse. Nothing but deceptions in another verse. Includes wealth, children, wife, and other things, as part of the adornment of this world...but I don't think any of these things are bad in themselves.

I disagree with both Quran and hadiths analysis of what this temporary world is. It's not just means of deceptions, it's not just play and amusement, it's even more then just a test.

I disagree with desiring it being wrong. I certainly disagree with it being such a evil, that desiring it at all earns you eternal torment.

I also don't think desiring this world will make you turn against his pleasure.

You're leaving out the key factor of everything here, and that is intent.

You could desire a gun to murder, or you could desire a gun to protect your family.

You could desire wealth to feed your family, or you could desire wealth to enslave other people.

Intent is the key to everything, to the extent, that those who truly contemplate, would say, they desire sleep only so that they may rest so that they have the energy to continue the struggles in this world.

If your vision is only this world, you are deemed unwise, if your vision for this world is to accumulate for the afterlife, that is wise (according to the Qur'an and the Imams and the contemplater)

but it seems to be it gives bad image as well.

No it doesn't.

[MysticKnight]

You're leaving out the key factor of everything here, and that is intent.

You could desire a gun to murder, or you could desire a gun to protect your family.

You could desire wealth to feed your family, or you could desire wealth to enslave other people.

Intent is the key to everything, to the extent, that those who truly contemplate, would say, they desire sleep only so that they may rest so that they have the energy to continue the struggles in this world.

I'm not forgetting that. In fact, it's something the verse doesn't take into account. That is why I said desiring children or wife are not bad in themselves. It depends on the intention. You can desire a woman only for selfish reasons, or you can desire to make her happy. You can desire a good life to a raise good family, to make that family happy. The same is true of wealth, you can desire it to make others happy, not just yourself. And there is nothing wrong with making yourself happy as well as long as you are considerate of others. It's not me whom didn't take this into account. The verse simply labelled everyone desiring this world as people whom will have nothing but hell-fire in the next.

The verse makes zero sense, because everyone has some desire for the life of this world. Maybe not all, suicidal people don't.

Edited August 31, 2011 by MysticKnight

[Ya Aba 3abdillah]

I'm not forgetting that. In fact, it's something the verse doesn't take into account.

Why are you only taking into account one verse? Why don't you take into account the plethora of other verses that say "wallahu ya'lamu maa fil quloob" (and God knows what's in your hearts) or "sudoor" (chests) or "niyyatikum" (your intentions) is used in plenty of ahadith?

وَلَا تَجْعَلُوا اللَّهَ عُرْضَةً لِأَيْمَانِكُمْ أَنْ تَبَرُّوا وَتَتَّقُوا وَتُصْلِحُوا بَيْنَ النَّاسِ ۗ وَاللَّهُ سَمِيعٌ عَلِيمٌ 2:224

[shakir 2:224] And make not Allah because of your swearing (by Him) an obstacle to your doing good and guarding (against evil) and making peace between men, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.

[Pickthal 2:224] And make not Allah, by your oaths, a hindrance to your being righteous and observing your duty unto Him and making peace among mankind. Allah is Hearer, Knower.

[Yusufali 2:224] And make not Allah's (name) an excuse in your oaths against doing good, or acting rightly, or making peace between persons; for Allah is One Who heareth and knoweth all things.

لَا يُؤَاخِذُكُمُ اللَّهُ بِاللَّغْوِ فِي أَيْمَانِكُمْ وَلَٰكِنْ يُؤَاخِذُكُمْ بِمَا كَسَبَتْ قُلُوبُكُمْ ۗ وَاللَّهُ غَفُورٌ حَلِيمٌ 2:225

[shakir 2:225] Allah does not call you to account for what is vain in your oaths, but He will call you to account for what your hearts have earned, and Allah is Forgiving, Forbearing.

[Pickthal 2:225] Allah will not take you to task for that which is unintentional in your oaths. But He will take you to task for that which your hearts have garnered. Allah is Forgiving, Clement.

[Yusufali 2:225] Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts; and He is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing.

[MysticKnight]

Why are you only taking into account one verse. Why don't you take into account the plethora of other verses that say "wallahu ya'lamu maa fil quloob" (and God knows what's in your hearts) or "sudoor" (chests) or "niyyatikum" (your intentions) is used in plenty of ahadith?

I can ignore all verses in Quran and just read "whom believes in God, God will guide his heart" and believe all people whom believe in God are guided..but then what about other verses? So what about other verses talking about intentions and all that.. I'm not ignoring them. I've read Quran many times.

The fact is the whole image of God is big contradiction with opposing forces favoring the more ugly forces. If God is All-Fobearing, Merciful, Loving, Compassionate, and will forgive all, have mercy on all, love all, there is nothing ugly about it. But if God is All-Wrathful, Severe in Punishment, Vengeful, and doesn't forgive, punishes all whom deserve it, and excercises no mercy, that's an ugly image. However we don't have all beautiful or all ugly, we have two of them, but with the ugly overshadowing the beautiful, to the extent everyone thinks they are part of the special group to receive the beautiful side of God while everyone else will receive the ugly side...

Nothing short of "being guidd, not being misguided, obeying, not disobeying, not desirng this world, haven't right beleifs" earns you the beautiful side.

You disbelieve and you face nothing but the ugly side.

You desire this world and you get nothing but the ugly side.

This is a contradiction.

I've been ignoring the ugly side my whole life, focusing on the beautiful side..Do you know why du'a kumail is so emotional, because we are bringing beautiful side over ugly..how will God punish if you after Tawheed? how will he do this and that after this and that...

However you know what's even more emotional, when you let go of the opposite side completely, and just believe in Love, Mercy, Forgiveness, Forbearance

It's not easy because you will think of Tyrants, and how can they be forgiven, but it's because you have the opposites, that you can't let go off. You can't let go of hate, so you think God will not. You can't forgive, so you think God will not.

It really comes down to that. The beauty I really believe and worship is the Loving, Forbearing, Forgiving Side, without the opposite forces of Severe Punishing, Vengeful, Wrathful, Unforgiving of many...

You see it on these forums...so much hate.. people can't even love people of the same faith for just differing in some thought... it's because there is much hate...

Perhaps God doesn't hate, perhaps he doesn't get angry, perhaps these are not good traits, they;re opposites forbearance, love are the way.

[Ya Aba 3abdillah]

The fact is the whole image of God is big contradiction with opposing forces favoring the more ugly forces.

Ying Yang?

Evey chapter save one begins with (bismillah). You're supposed to take a holistic approach to religion. If people concentrate on one over another, it doesn't mean they're practicing correctly according to the scriptures. Don't judge a religion by its followers. Islam sums it up, you do good, you get mercy, you do bad, you get wrath...therefore choose your path wisely. Islam has a balance no other religion has.

Mercy without justice is not mercy.

[MysticKnight]

Disbelievers can do good, they will earn hell per Quran. I've read Quran. I've seen the hadiths that label anyone whom denies Imamate as in hell too.

The ugly side is for all humanity save the special 12ver Shiites, and even then, people are on each other throats thinking each is misguided.

Quran summarizes, "your guided by God, your guided..your lead astray by him, you enter hell, it will be increased in punishment over and over again".

Whom by the way is not somewhat guided by God and whom is not somewhat astray? Everyone is both astray and guided, no one completely guided, no one completely astray. Yet another one of those this or that issues of Quran. Desire this world or desires next. Can't be both. Guided or misguided, can't be both. When reality almost everyone is both.

Islam sums it up, you do good, you get mercy, you do bad, you get wrath...

Everyone has done some good, everyone has done some evil. Really it comes to everyone believing their guided beliefs and thoughts earns them special access to the beautiful side, while everyone else disbelieving what they believe in earns them the ugly side.

Edited August 31, 2011 by MysticKnight

[Ya Aba 3abdillah]

Disbelievers can do good,

Disbelievers goods will be judged on whether they did the good for themselves or for others (to satisfy themselves) or for themselves for the afterlife. God (even if you don't want to call him Allah) is the fairest of judges. Don't underestimate His abilities. Questioning such a Being's abilities of fair judgement and justice is making a mockery of that Being's power.

Each person will be judged in relevance to what's in their hearts, their knowledge, their environmental upbringing and their intentions.

[MysticKnight]

الْيَوْمَ أُحِلَّ لَكُمُ الطَّيِّبَاتُ ۖ وَطَعَامُ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْكِتَابَ حِلٌّ لَكُمْ وَطَعَامُكُمْ حِلٌّ لَهُمْ ۖ وَالْمُحْصَنَاتُ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنَاتِ وَالْمُحْصَنَاتُ مِنَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْكِتَابَ مِنْ قَبْلِكُمْ إِذَا آتَيْتُمُوهُنَّ أُجُورَهُنَّ مُحْصِنِينَ غَيْرَ مُسَافِحِينَ وَلَا مُتَّخِذِي أَخْدَانٍ ۗ وَمَنْ يَكْفُرْ بِالْإِيمَانِ فَقَدْ حَبِطَ عَمَلُهُ وَهُوَ فِي الْآخِرَةِ مِنَ الْخَاسِرِينَ {5}

[Shakir 5:5] This day (all) the good things are allowed to you; and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them; and the chaste from among the believing women and the chaste from among those who have been given the Book before you (are lawful for you); when you have given them their dowries, taking (them) in marriage, not fornicating nor taking them for paramours in secret; and whoever denies faith, his work indeed is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.

وَمَنْ يَهْدِ اللَّهُ فَهُوَ الْمُهْتَدِ ۖ وَمَنْ يُضْلِلْ فَلَنْ تَجِدَ لَهُمْ أَوْلِيَاءَ مِنْ دُونِهِ ۖ وَنَحْشُرُهُمْ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ عَلَىٰ وُجُوهِهِمْ عُمْيًا وَبُكْمًا وَصُمًّا ۖ مَأْوَاهُمْ جَهَنَّمُ ۖ كُلَّمَا خَبَتْ زِدْنَاهُمْ سَعِيرًا {97}

[Shakir 17:97] And whomsoever Allah guides, he is the follower of the right way, and whomsoever He causes to err, you shall not find for him guardians besides Him; and We will gather them together on the day of resurrection on their faces, blind and dumb and deaf; their abode is hell; whenever it becomes allayed We will add to their burning.

Seems all astray souls are destined to hell, with continuous added burning.

You made it sound like disbelievers have a chance, while Quran verdict is their actions will not avail them at all. فَقَدْ حَبِطَ عَمَلُهُ

[Ya Aba 3abdillah]

^ "wal 'asr, innal insaana laa fee khusr"

I thought you don't only concentrate on the justful wrath?

Anyways, you're bound to tread down the wrong path when the columns of religion are destroyed just as a sailor is bound to steer his ship off course on a cloudy night without a compass.

[MysticKnight]

I thought you don't only concentrate on the justful wrath?

When people talk about God, they don't like to show his wrathful ugly side. You won't see Christians say "God is so great that is why he is going to punish all people whom don't accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour", they rather say "God is so great that he sent his begotten son to save us..." so the emphasize on some compassion/love of God in mist of his wrath and severe unmerciful justice.

Muslims also will not say 'God is so great that he punishes disbelievers", 'God is so great that he doesn't love the disbelievers", they will emphasize "God loves the believers, and is so great will forgive their sins whenever they repent"...in other words, emphasize on the special mercy in midst of the harsh severe nature outside of that.

The fact no one brags about how God is going to punish disbelievers and astray souls, and want to show off his greatness by that, just shows no one believes it really is act of greatness.

I cannot ignore the overwhelming warthful side that overshadows the beautiful side emphasized by words like "Most Merciful, Forbearing, Forgiving", because he is more to the opposite of these attributes then to the postive per Quran.

You can read Ar-Rahman Ar-Raheem but then read he will send to hell all astray souls or all those whom desire this world or any whom disbelieves in faith or any whom disobeys God, then it's very odd idea of Mercy, Compassion, and Love.

Anyways, you're bound to tread down the wrong path when the columns of religion are destroyed just as a sailor is bound to steer his ship off course on a cloudy night without a compass.

Religion clouds people judgment. Christians want to emphasize on love of God, yet if they were to believe in a God of love, then why will he roast in hell all those unconvinced of the gospels? That is suppose to Mercy, love, and grace? That is how God shows his love?

There is alot of things people deep down know is unethical in Islam like being allowed a 2nd wife or muta partner without permission of wife or slavery or killing apostates or making a woman half witness or saying men are a degree higher then women, but they will put away what they know and replace with submission.

It doesn't matter how bad it is, like killing a person for disbelieving in a religion, it's all "guidance".

Ofcourse we have no guidance on how to establish a just government, details how to maintain it, but we have guidance on what finger we should wear a ring on...

We don't need to be dictated what to think and how to act.

Edited August 31, 2011 by MysticKnight

[Ya Aba 3abdillah]

^ Islam hasn't clouded my judgement, quite the opposite.

Don't judge a religion by its followers but by its scriptures.

You didn't address the question, you just vented again some [Edited Out] about what people do.

[MysticKnight]

It's not even a question. It's a statement. And I addressed it.

[Çåá ÇáÈíÊ]

^ Islam hasn't clouded my judgement, quite the opposite.

Don't judge a religion by its followers but by its scriptures.

You didn't address the question, you just vented again some [Edited Out] about what people do.

He actually did address your statement and you haven't refuted it yet. I'd like to see you try.