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In the Name of God بسم الله

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(salam)

I have few question from Akhbaris. As Akhbaris claim that there is no need of Taqleed of a Mujtahid in Islam and one can recourse to Quran and Hadiths of Prophet (pbuh) and Ahl ul bait a.s for knowing about any verdict on a issue. Therefore, i want to know what is Akhbari reply on the basis of Quran and sayings of Ahl ul bait a.s in the following Issues.

1. Is heart transplant or liver transplant allowed or not? Please provide Quranic reference or reference from hadiths of Prophet (pbuh) and Ahl ul bait a.s.

2. What is the ruling for a person who forgot to offer Tashud in prayer. As taqleed is not allowed please provide direct reference from Quran and sayings of Prophet (pbuh) and Ahl ul bait a.s.

3. If you have answer from Quran and sayings of Ahl ul bait a.s regarding the aforementioned issues and you paste them here with relevant references (as i do not have direct access to so many books and i have not specialized in Islamic knowledge) and i accept this then will it not mean that I have literally followed you though you have just informed me about hadiths and Quranic verses regarding the matter in question. Will it not mean that you have taught me and I did your "Taqleed" in this issue?

I shall put more questions as the thread will proceed. Looking forward for the response of those who are against Ijtehad and Taqleed and Pseudo-Akhbaris.

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If u want to say Allah azwj has not mentioned it in quran and neither has rasool Allah saws mentioned it in ahadees. Where the heck will any ghair masoom mujtahid get his ruling from.

And if u say they have then akhbarism will b proven right.

When u want to debate then ask about the correctness and proofs for a school of thought rather than act like a sunni questioning shias.

I have Seen that u have blamed akhbaris for not Contibuting anything to shiism and that shows ur knowledge.

Ya Ali madad

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(bismillah)

Dear Brother Aabiss_Shakari,

These pseudo-Akhbaris are here to attack Shias and disrespect our scholars. You will find them incapable of solving problems or answering any real questions. In fact if you ever want them to run away, start asking them questions. :wacko:

WS

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If u want to say Allah azwj has not mentioned it in quran and neither has rasool Allah saws mentioned it in ahadees. Where the heck will any ghair masoom mujtahid get his ruling from.

And if u say they have then akhbarism will b proven right.

When u want to debate then ask about the correctness and proofs for a school of thought rather than act like a sunni questioning shias.

I have Seen that u have blamed akhbaris for not Contibuting anything to shiism and that shows ur knowledge.

Ya Ali madad

Dear brother, I have no intention to create hatred or taunt some one. Let us come to the point and remain positive. Leave the ijtehad of Ghair e Masoom Mujtahid aside. Let us assume that "I want to get liver transplant and want to know about its legality in Islam. What is Akhbari stance on the subject? What is the approach of Akhbaris on this issue and many such like issues?"

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The correct way by which this thread can move is point-wise answers to my questions. Once these three questions are answered then i can proceed and analyse and understand Akhbaris approach. Otherwise there is no point of taunting and disrespecting each other. I hope my learned brothers will understand my point and will not reply in left and right manner.

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Looking forward for the response

What you must realize is, only the a minority group will even attempt to answer your questions.

What the minority group will do is the following:

1. Get out their books and search tools.

2. Get the Arabic dictionary handy.

3. Get the rijaal books ready.

4. Sit for a few hours researching what you've asked.

Now this is the problem:

1. Most are likely to make an error in verdicts, because their research wasn't as thorough as it could be.

2. The research wasn't as thorough because they haven't spent a great part of their lives studying the sciences of ahadith.

3. And if they are well versed, then they are only a very small proportion of the Shia.

What happens next is:

1. They'll paste the ahadith for you.

2. They will say Scholar A says, and Scholar B says and Scholar C says from Book X and Book Y and Book Z.

What actually happened was:

1. The pseudo-akhbaris did their research in a similar way to what a Mujtahid would have.

2. They in fact practiced Ijtihad because a less knowledgeable individual who can't figure out the questions himself, asked someone who has some knowledge in the sciences.

The result is:

1. Little psuedo-akhbaris that can't tell their right hand from their left will say "hahaha see, no need for taqleed"

2. The impression that's then spread is that Taqleed isn't needed.

3. The respect for our great scholars is lost.

4. Our leadership starts coming into question as there's a breakdown in our Ummah's structure.

5. Everyone starts questioning the ability of the scholars.

6. The people are misguided.

7. The misguided help to misguide others.

We can conclude therefore that:

1. The pseudo-akhbaris are ignorant of the damage that they're doing; or

2. They know what they're doing; and/or

3. Are doing it on purpose due to politically motivated purposes or are a remnant/bi-product of previous politically motivated individuals that misguided less knowledgeable individuals.

And finally what must be done is:

1. Educate the masses about the inherent flaws of laymen self-declared Mujtahids conjuring up their own fatwas.

2. Putting a stop to such misguidance.

Alhamdulillah there seems to be a reversing trend here as more members are becoming aware of what's happening.

Good luck getting your answers :)

Long live our righteous Scholars, the ropes of our religion and the guides of our people.

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What you must realize is, only the a minority group will even attempt to answer your questions.

What the minority group will do is the following:

1. Get out their books and search tools.

2. Get the Arabic dictionary handy.

3. Get the rijaal books ready.

4. Sit for a few hours researching what you've asked.

Now this is the problem:

1. Most are likely to make an error in verdicts, because their research wasn't as thorough as it could be.

2. The research wasn't as thorough because they haven't spent a great part of their lives studying the sciences of ahadith.

3. And if they are well versed, then they are only a very small proportion of the Shia.

What happens next is:

1. They'll paste the ahadith for you.

2. They will say Scholar A says, and Scholar B says and Scholar C says from Book X and Book Y and Book Z.

What actually happened was:

1. The pseudo-akhbaris did their research in a similar way to what a Mujtahid would have.

2. They in fact practiced Ijtihad because a less knowledgeable individual who can't figure out the questions himself, asked someone who has some knowledge in the sciences.

The result is:

1. Little psuedo-akhbaris that can't tell their right hand from their left will say "hahaha see, no need for taqleed"

2. The impression that's then spread is that Taqleed isn't needed.

3. The respect for our great scholars is lost.

4. Our leadership starts coming into question as there's a breakdown in our Ummah's structure.

5. Everyone starts questioning the ability of the scholars.

6. The people are misguided.

7. The misguided help to misguide others.

We can conclude therefore that:

1. The pseudo-akhbaris are ignorant of the damage that they're doing; or

2. They know what they're doing; and/or

3. Are doing it on purpose due to politically motivated purposes or are a remnant/bi-product of previous politically motivated individuals that misguided less knowledgeable individuals.

And finally what must be done is:

1. Educate the masses about the inherent flaws of laymen self-declared Mujtahids conjuring up their own fatwas.

2. Putting a stop to such misguidance.

Alhamdulillah there seems to be a reversing trend here as more members are becoming aware of what's happening.

Good luck getting your answers :)

Long live our righteous Scholars, the ropes of our religion and the guides of our people.

TAKBIR!

Allahu akbar!

Allahu akbar!

Allahu akbar!

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Br Aabiss, I will insha'Allah endeavour to answer two of the questions you've posited and research on the other.

What is the ruling for a person who forgot to offer Tashud in prayer. As taqleed is not allowed please provide direct reference from Quran and sayings of Prophet (pbuh) and AhlulBayt (as).

If a person forgets to read tashahud after the first two rakats, if he remembers before the rukoo of the third rakat, then he should sit down and read tashahud. If he remembers after performing rukoo, then he should complete his prayer and make qaza of tashahud and perform two sajda sahv before speaking to anyone.

Sayings of Imam Jafar Sadiq (as) Wasail ul Shia Fourth Edition page 332 chapter 7 hadith 3

If you have answer from Quran and sayings of Ahl ul bait a.s regarding the aforementioned issues and you paste them here with relevant references (as i do not have direct access to so many books and i have not specialized in Islamic knowledge) and i accept this then will it not mean that I have literally followed you though you have just informed me about hadiths and Quranic verses regarding the matter in question. Will it not mean that you have taught me and I did your "Taqleed" in this issue?

No my good brother, you haven't done taqlid (blind emulation), just enquired on something you weren't sure of and recieved an answer per Quran or Narration. If you weren't satisfied with the answer or didn't recieve one then you'd be free to ask another person but best course would be to seek for yourself of course (and I'm sure Usoolis do the same for most day to day issues).

When Akhbari school was prominent they had scholars, laypersons went to them for advice and knowledge for issues that perplexed them.

I will look for the information about transplants; their is mention in Holy Quran about sanctity of human body (hence why post-mortems are a no-no) so my feeling would incline towards the negative but will check.

ALI

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The correct way by which this thread can move is point-wise answers to my questions. Once these three questions are answered then i can proceed and analyse and understand Akhbaris approach. Otherwise there is no point of taunting and disrespecting each other. I hope my learned brothers will understand my point and will not reply in left and right manner.

if u have ever debated then tell me if this is the right approach?

For e.g., with Sunnis: U prove them that our imams a.s are right and their imams are wrong and there is a door from which everyone seeks. In case of usooli akhbari issue; we have believe in 12 imams a.s. In common each thinking to be following the aimma a.s and in this case u would look at differences in the way of following them and the correct way is to be found.

If we debate about fiqhi issues then I am sorry to say only a majnoon fallible will have all answers.

So chalk out differences. I will give u a hint. I say u guys are ahle usool wal ijtehaad and this is biddah. You, prove me wrong by quoting ahadis which are sahih according to ur alims(a big discount?)

or show proof of 5 usool e deen I.e., tauheed adl nabuwwat imamat qiyamat. Show me any hadees or ayat of Quran that says imams a.s have said usool e deen of Islam are these five ?

Ya Ali madad

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I will look for the information about transplants; their is mention in Holy Quran about sanctity of human body (hence why post-mortems are a no-no) so my feeling would incline towards the negative but will check.

JazakAllah. Anxiously waiting for your fatwa inshAllah.

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So chalk out differences. I will give u a hint. I say u guys are ahle usool wal ijtehaad and this is biddah. You, prove me wrong by quoting ahadis which are sahih according to ur alims(a big discount?)

or show proof of 5 usool e deen I.e., tauheed adl nabuwwat imamat qiyamat. Show me any hadees or ayat of Quran that says imams a.s have said usool e deen of Islam are these five ?

(bismillah)

Br. Aabiss_Shakari, see what is going on here. To avoid answering your questions, he wants to ask you questions.

Dont fall in this trap. Keep insisting that he and other pseudo-Akhbaris answer your questions.

WS

Edited by Orion

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we have to remember that the main scholars in shia-ism were akhbari, including shaykh saduq and allama hilli.

to mock akhbarism is therefore to mock the earliest/ original model of shiaism. global internet based usoolism came along much later.

to say akhbaris havent contributed anything to our madhab is absurd.

having said that, im not akhbari nor usooli. i believe the right was is somewhere in the middle (and dont know any akhbari mujtaheds)

Edited by Maula Dha Mallang

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Br Aabiss, I will insha'Allah endeavour to answer two of the questions you've posited and research on the other.

If a person forgets to read tashahud after the first two rakats, if he remembers before the rukoo of the third rakat, then he should sit down and read tashahud. If he remembers after performing rukoo, then he should complete his prayer and make qaza of tashahud and perform two sajda sahv before speaking to anyone.

Sayings of Imam Jafar Sadiq (as) Wasail ul Shia Fourth Edition page 332 chapter 7 hadith 3

No my good brother, you haven't done taqlid (blind emulation), just enquired on something you weren't sure of and recieved an answer per Quran or Narration. If you weren't satisfied with the answer or didn't recieve one then you'd be free to ask another person but best course would be to seek for yourself of course (and I'm sure Usoolis do the same for most day to day issues).

Brother the case is not so simple often. There are often overlapping and some apparent contradictions which could not be rectified without recourse to other research tools like Rijal, mantaq and fiqh etc.

When Akhbari school was prominent they had scholars, laypersons went to them for advice and knowledge for issues that perplexed them.

Then what taqleed is brother? Obviously Usooli scholars guide the public at large in the similar manner? What is this noise about it?

I will look for the information about transplants; their is mention in Holy Quran about sanctity of human body (hence why post-mortems are a no-no) so my feeling would incline towards the negative but will check.

Do not you think this is your "Ijtehaid"? You deduced a principle from Quran "Sanctity of human body" and on the basis of you issued the fatwa that "so my feeling would incline towards the negative". But the problem is that you are not religiously qualified to do this and there is alot of chance of error and mistake but a person who is expert in this there is very much less chance of error and chance therefore, it is always advised to follow the most learned (Aalam). Akhbari methodology is self destruction and acceptance of Usooli principles.

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What you must realize is, only the a minority group will even attempt to answer your questions.

What the minority group will do is the following:

1. Get out their books and search tools.

2. Get the Arabic dictionary handy.

3. Get the rijaal books ready.

4. Sit for a few hours researching what you've asked.

Now this is the problem:

1. Most are likely to make an error in verdicts, because their research wasn't as thorough as it could be.

2. The research wasn't as thorough because they haven't spent a great part of their lives studying the sciences of ahadith.

3. And if they are well versed, then they are only a very small proportion of the Shia.

What happens next is:

1. They'll paste the ahadith for you.

2. They will say Scholar A says, and Scholar B says and Scholar C says from Book X and Book Y and Book Z.

What actually happened was:

1. The pseudo-akhbaris did their research in a similar way to what a Mujtahid would have.

2. They in fact practiced Ijtihad because a less knowledgeable individual who can't figure out the questions himself, asked someone who has some knowledge in the sciences.

The result is:

1. Little psuedo-akhbaris that can't tell their right hand from their left will say "hahaha see, no need for taqleed"

2. The impression that's then spread is that Taqleed isn't needed.

3. The respect for our great scholars is lost.

4. Our leadership starts coming into question as there's a breakdown in our Ummah's structure.

5. Everyone starts questioning the ability of the scholars.

6. The people are misguided.

7. The misguided help to misguide others.

We can conclude therefore that:

1. The pseudo-akhbaris are ignorant of the damage that they're doing; or

2. They know what they're doing; and/or

3. Are doing it on purpose due to politically motivated purposes or are a remnant/bi-product of previous politically motivated individuals that misguided less knowledgeable individuals.

And finally what must be done is:

1. Educate the masses about the inherent flaws of laymen self-declared Mujtahids conjuring up their own fatwas.

2. Putting a stop to such misguidance.

Alhamdulillah there seems to be a reversing trend here as more members are becoming aware of what's happening.

Good luck getting your answers :)

Long live our righteous Scholars, the ropes of our religion and the guides of our people.

Brother, This is so well written, u should make just this post a sticky. But as MDM said, lest we forget some of our greatest scholars were 'akhbaris' and not to mention, Sheikh Al-Hurr al-Aamili as well. The Author of Wasael al Shia, without which, we would be lost today.

I think the question has to be asked, Some of our greatest scholars were akhbari??? in fact, if i am misinformed, for a while, akhabarism was shiasm for an extended period of shia history.

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I think the question has to be asked, Some of our greatest scholars were akhbari??? in fact, if i am misinformed, for a while, akhabarism was shiasm for an extended period of shia history.

its a pretty safe bet that the original (akhbari) scholars were greater than any living/ recent history scholars. in fact i dont think there is any doubt about that whatsoever

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